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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  bad hops (Matt)
  Gout?? ("Mike Maag")
  ppt - gout ("-s@adelphia.net")
  pt2 - gout ("-s@adelphia.net")


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Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:53:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matt <baumssl27 at yahoo.com>
Subject: bad hops

I have a suspicion that I am sometimes getting bad hops from my local
homebrew store.  Sometimes the hop aroma I expect from a given recipe
is just missing.  And, especially when I use their Saaz it seems, there
is a sticky and unpleasant aspect to the flavor/aroma (not the normal
grassiness I percieve in, say, Hennepin) that just feels hop-like.

But, I am not certain that hops were really the source of the missing,
or sometimes unpleasant, aroma.  Obviously a myriad of process
variables could have these effects.  Further, the shop keeps the hops
refrigerated in oxygen barrier bags.  On the other hand, sometimes I do
achieve excellent hop aroma, and it seems like this is correlated to
the use of hops recognized for good storage stability.  And on the two
occasions when I've been able to use hops from the vault of a
well-respected local microbrewery, I had no problems.

Despite brewing for a few years now, I don't feel like I've brewed
enough to understand the source of this inconsistency.  My question for
the highly experienced old-hand brewers is this: have your many years
of brewing led you to believe that the quality of even apparently
well-kept LHBS hops is a significant variable?  Am I just generally
asking for trouble by attempting to brew with Czech Saaz that have
suffered their way through the entire homebrew supply chain?  Or are
hops almost always pretty good, so that I should stop suspecting
outside factors for an inconsistency that's probably my own fault?

Matt


       


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Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:34:41 -0500
From: "Mike Maag" <mikemaag at comcast.net>
Subject: Gout??

Yes, it sounds like you have gout, just like I do  (about once every year or
2).  Yes, yeast is key.  Hefeweizen is bad...but can be made less bad by
drinking water.  Lots of water.  Cherry juice is good.  Get CONCENTRATED 
juice from the health food store and add a shot or two to a beer.
I take Colchacine at the first twinge, and it nips it in the bud.
Let me know what the Dr. says.
Hope this helps
Mike Maag in the Shenandoah Valley (Staunton, Va)





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Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:40:20 -0400
From: "-s at adelphia.net" <-s@adelphia.net>
Subject: ppt - gout

Amos Brooks [[my fellow fencer]] and Roger Burns ask about gout,

My own thoughts have turned to gout lately.  I injured  my toe - whacked 
it really good into a dresser and the pain the next day could easily 
have passed as a gout symptom (minus the redness).  The fact that my 
younger brother has had bouts of gout since his mid-20s always makes me 
wary.   Fortunately (??) the x-ray shows a chipped bone.

So a gout attack is pretty simple.  Uric acid build up in your system 
(intake + production exceeds excretion) and this slightly soluble stuff 
(~68mg/L  at  body temp) forms painfil crystals in the joints.  The same 
uric acid excess can result in uric acid kidney stones.  The best 
diagnostic is extracting some synovial fluid from the joint and looking 
for the light-polarizing properties of the crystals.  Urine & blood may 
be tested for uric acid content as well, but hyperuricemia causes gout 
in only abt 5% of cases.  The primary source of uric acid is from the 
catabolism of purines, produced and eaten, and your kidneys are involved 
in the removal of uric acid.

Another factor involves diet and dieting.   If your blood is more acidic 
due to ketosis then you are more likely to have a gout attack.  Ketosis 
occurs when your body uses fats as an energy source.   This happens on 
any weight loss diet that is effective and also happens in untreated 
diabetes (as they cannot process carbohydrates).

Conventional treatment for gout include colchicine or indomethicin which 
assists in uric acid elimination or allopurinal which inhibits uric acid 
production .... also dietary restriction to prevent further attacks.   
Aspirin and some related pain-relievers can make the gout symptoms 
considerably worse.     Aspririn, niacin, various antibiotics may either 
impair renal processing of urates or else increase their production and 
create more problems.

The main reason beer makes gout attacks more probable is reportedly 
alcohol; tho' some fairly impressive recent studies (2004) show that 
it's the purines in beer rather than the alcohol.   There are anecdotal 
reports that dark beers are more problematic.  Some studies show that 
regular drinkers experience a rise in blood uric acid levels peaking 
about 3 hours after drinking.  A recent paper indicates that low-fat 
dairy products, vitamin C and wine are actually protective against 
gout.  Taken in all I think that at the same level of ethanol 
consumption we have to worry most about beer and least about wine as a 
cause of gout.  (http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/350/11/1093)

Drinking extra water is a very good idea for obvious reasons.  Cherries 
have some evidence in their favor 
(http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/133/6/1826),  Other anecdotal 
treatments taking activates charcoal orally.   I think we can safely 
ignore charcoal poutice treatments.

I wouldn't post much more except that the internet is full of such 
blatant baloney on the topic.   One site claims alcohol is high in 
purines - such nonsense.  Beer contains some purines but not so much 
(see below).   The foods to avoid for their direct purine content are 
organ meats (liver, brain heart, sweetbreads), certain seafood 
(anchovies, sardines, mussels, herring, shellfish).   Certain vegetables 
contain enough oxalic acid (possible uric acid) to affect uric acid 
levels and be troublesome - sorrel (a personal favorite) and spinach 
among them.  Whole grain cereals, wheat germ, and most muscle meats have 
enough purines to be aware of but not to entirely avoid.  I think the 
rational approach if you have gout is to avoid the problematic organ 
meats and seafoods.  The oxalic green veggies should be watched.  Use 
moderation wrt meat and whole grain.  Soy beans are particularly 
problematic.  Brewing yeast have a high level of purines (1.8% by 
weight) but then again we don't drink much yeast in beer.

I'm also disturbed by the medical profession's pronouncements on the 
matter.  Twice recently I've read advice to avoid red meat and game wrt 
gout - but I find no evidence in favor of this position, not even in the 
references these papers specificallly cited on the matter.   The medical 
professionals in the US and Europe have an agenda which involves 
associating saturated fats and cholesterol with everything evil.   
Whether that is justified or not on a factual basis isn't the issue 
here; they clearly exaggerate the dangers by inserting red meat on every 
"avoid" list even when there is good evidence to the contrary.  Perhaps 
I should blame the statin drug mfgrs - but I'm not too keen on 
conspiracy theories.   Let's just say that like Al Gore, they won't let 
facts interfere with their preconceived conclusions.   From the list 
(below) you'd be better off eating the same mass of beef or venison than 
chicken breast.
(more)


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Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:40:40 -0400
From: "-s at adelphia.net" <-s@adelphia.net>
Subject: pt2 - gout


Fructose (as in high fructose corn syrup in pop) increases purine 
production.  Five apples increase blood level by 35% ! Hypertension and 
obesity are both related to higher uric acid levels too.

The best advise to a gout sufferer would be to give up alcohol;  that's 
wise but not much fun.   Moderation especially in the amount of ethanol 
consumed and gravity of beers made is a more to my taste.  A couple 
session beers are probably a far better choice than those high gravity 
8% ABV monsters.  Go taste a newcaste brown or a bass again and 
rediscover how good beers with OG < 12P can be.  My recollection is that 
Kunze pegs wiezens at around 11P  - you don't need high gravity for a 
great flavorful beer.

Purine nucleotides ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purine )  include 
adenine and guanine - the 'A' and the 'G' of the ACGT bases that make up 
all DNA & RNA.  Theobromine and caffeine which appear in cocoa, tea, 
coffee are also purines, tho' they seem to be converted to 
methyl-xanthines and excreted in that form. so do not increase uric acid 
level,  Coffee (not tea) consumption seems to reduce uric acid levels. we

So all food contain DNA & RNA, and half the bases are purines which are 
converted to adenine monophosphate and guanine monophosphate (AMP, 
GMP).  We produce AMP & GMP from inositol and ribose too.  Before 
excretion AMP and GMP are converted to Inosine and Guanine respectively 
where the nitrogen is removed as ammonia and then to xanthine and 
finally uric acid.  There is no avoiding purines, but many foods have 
lower concentrations.

12 oz (OG 12P) beer                ~14mg purines (roughly proportional 
to OG)
1 gram of brewing yeast            ~18mg purines
100gm beef rib (3.5oz)             ~120mg
100gm beef sirloin                 ~110mg
100gm venison haunch               ~138mg
100gm shrimp                       ~147mg
100gm pork fillet                  ~150mg
Chicken (average)                  ~160mg
100gm chicken breast(3.5oz)        ~175mg
100gm lamb (muscle only)           ~182mg
           ** note "muscle only" figures are ~10% higher then "as eaten" 
figures.
100gm salmon                       ~170mg
100mg trout                        ~300mg
100mg sardines                     ~480mg
100 calfs liver                    ~480mg

Also rye & wheat have about half the purines as barley (~50 vs 100 
mg/100gm).

5gal of 12P wort might use 3.5kg of malt so the barley had 3.5+ grams of 
purine but only ~20% remains in the beer. Brewing yeast contain 1.8% 
purines so this could explain the rest.   Yeah - avoid yeast if you are 
subject to gout, use more wheat & rye.  The puzzle is that 10 beers has 
only as much purines as half a chicken breast - doesn't matter.  Beer 
but not the ethanol is implicated in studies, and the amt of purines in 
2-4 beers is ignorable so it's (IMO) something else.  Maybe that "dark 
beer" anecdote is a clue.

 -S



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