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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re: How to obtain bottles? (William Mayne)
  Leistad yeast book (Kim Mills)
  tea taste (Geoffrey Sherwood)
  Gushers? EMDE? ... An idea (mike_schrempp)
  Re: How to obtain bottles??? (Dan Needham)
  Warming Winter Wort (Andy McBrearty)
  Bottles... (Walter Gude)
  Getting One's Mitts On Bottles (Marc San Soucie)
  Re: How to obtain bottles??? (Steve Dempsey)
  How to get bottles (Rick Noah Zucker)
  This Is A Test (Chris Brown)
  Ale Yeast for "Lager" Recipes? (Marc Rouleau)
  still too much sugar (stevef)
  New Participant (Rad Equipment)
  cool weather fermentations (JEEPSRUS)
  Distillation ("Eric Roe")
  Art's Brewing Supplies (Jim Griggers)
  Specific heat? (Bill Crick)


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[Please do not send me requests for back issues]
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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 90 09:08:37 -0400
>From: William Mayne <mayne at nu.cs.fsu.edu>
Subject: Re: How to obtain bottles?

Keith Abbey writes:

>        Has anyone come up with some creative ways of obtaining 
>bottles?  I just don't drink enough beer to get the amount of bottles
>I need.  How has everyone else done it? 

How have I drank that much beer? Persistence! :-)

Seriously, though. Here are a few suggestions:

(1) Hunt around for a glass recycling bin. It is usually okay to take
bottles from them. I stocked up on bottles after just a few visits to
the recycling bin at my local food coop. Monday is the best time to check.

(2) If you can find a local liquor store or bar which sells beer in
returnable bottles you can usually buy cases of empties for the deposit
value. They usually don't keep them around long, so you may need to call
and arrange for them to save you some or tell you when to come by ahead
of the collection truck. You may even be a able to get a bar or restaurant
which serves imported beers to save you some of those bottles.

(3) A great labor saving substitute for 12 oz. recapable glass bottles
is one or two liter plastic soft drink bottles. They work for bottling
home brew and since you don't need so many of them you save a lot of 
bottle cleaning time. Caveat: Since these of mostly clear you should
keep them in a dark place to protect the beer from light.

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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 90 09:13:26 -0400
>From: kim at nova.npac.syr.edu (Kim Mills)
Subject: Leistad yeast book

I'm looking for a place to buy a book on  yeast culturing (described in
Dave Miller's book)

Leistad, Roger.  Yeast Culturing for the Homebrewer.  Spencer, Iowa.  Leistad
Services.  1983.

Thanks for any leads,  Kim

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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 90 08:37:29 PDT
>From: sherwood at adobe.com (Geoffrey Sherwood)
Subject: tea taste

I am an extract brewer (with specialty malt adjuncts).  Most of my brewing
has been done using English extracts (Munton & Fison mostly, but various
other kits as well).  Our local homebrew store sells Alexander Light and
Amber extract in bulk.  The last batch I made from it had a very pronounced
'tea' aroma and taste.  A friend of mine who is also a brewer had the same
experience.  I used 1 pound of crystal malt which I removed at 170F, 6 lb
extract, and 1 lb corn sugar.  I hopped with 2 oz mixed cascade and
halletauer hops.  I have made MANY batches with a similar recipe without
ever experiencing this (never with American extracts, though).

The aroma was strong at the end of the boil, and I tasted it in the cooled
wort (the keg is not drinking yet, but I expect it there as well).  We first
noticed this in Dave's brew.  The batch was undercarbonated at the time and
tasted almost exactly like iced tea.

Has anyone experienced this?  My suspicion would be the extract, but I have
read many praises of Alexander's malts in this list.

	geoff sherwood

(Anybody know where I can get Munton and Fison extracts in bulk?  They make
the best I have used - IMHO, of course)

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Date:        25 Oct 90 07:39 -0800
>From: mike_schrempp%29 at hp4200.desk.hp.com
Subject:     Gushers? EMDE? ... An idea

I just got a copy of Miller's book and have been casually reading it while a
batch is fermenting in the tub. Something he said about yeast, plus what's
happening to my beer got me thinking about gushers and EDME yeast.

I don't have the book, so I can't quote it, but in duscussing ale yeast versus
lager yeast, Miller said that some ale yeasts end up acting like bottom
fermenters ("no yeast pancake on the top" or something like that). At about
this time, I racked my beer (an ale using whitbread dry yeast). Before racking
I had 1 bubble per minute, and since racking I haven't seen one bubble. I also
never saw a "yeast pancake".

I have no experience with lager yeasts, but if ale yeast is working from the
bottom, and then it gets thrown out with the trub after racking, is there
enough yeast left in suspension to continue the fermentation of the complex
sugars? Maybe priming with corn sugar (glucose) jump starts the process, then
the yeast can continue the fermentation of those complex sugars and WHAM!
gushers.

So, a question for the gusher people, did you rack of the trub and have your
fermentation stop? Also did you prime with corn sugar or wort?

Since I'll be bottling next week, I may try a couple of bottles without any
priming, and see what happens.


Hoping to see Old Faithful only in Yellowstone,
Mike Schrempp


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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 90 09:43:15 pdt
>From: Dan Needham <dann at hpsadlb.hp.com>
Subject: Re: How to obtain bottles???
Full-Name: Dan Needham


In HBD #525 Kieth abbey asks ...

>          Has anyone come up with some creative ways of obtaining
>  bottles?  I just don't drink enough beer to get the amount of bottles
>  I need.  How has everyone else done it?  Any tips or hints would
>  be greatly appreciated.

I have found a couple of good sources of sparkling wine bottles.  These
take a crown cap, and are a good size (A pair of beer mugs full!).
Restaurants that serve champagne brunches and weddings are good sources
for bottles by the case.  Be aware that some of the Spanish sparkling
wines have a larger lip that does not take a standard crown cap.

Happy Brewing!!

Dan Needham          dann at hpsad.hp.com


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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 90 10:32:00 edt
>From: Andy McBrearty <sdrc!gcandy at uunet.UU.NET>
Subject: Warming Winter Wort

In HOMEBREW Digest #524 Dave Durkin writes:
>When I was living in England, I had a problem brewing in the winter...
> (rest of article deleted)
>

I just wanted to offer a (possibly simpler) solution:

Rather than submerging the aquarium heater into the fermenting wort (and run
a risk of contamination ;-), how about using the same carboy-in-a-water-bath
setup that has been mentioned before in this Digest (summer topics). It was
designed to keep the wort cool during the hot months, but by putting the
aquarium heater in the water bath, you can regulate the bath temperature and
you avoid any special cuttings or setup.



 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
					Andy McBrearty
					uunet!sdrc!gcandy

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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 90 12:07:56 CDT
>From: whg at fenchurch.wustl.edu (Walter Gude)
Subject: Bottles...


When I started homebrewing I just went down to my favorite bar which sells
beer in long neck bottles and asked the nice man it he'd sell me a case or
3 of empties.  They evidently pay about 2 cents per bottle and 12 cents 
for the carton deposit. So for $1.00 per case they sold me all the bottles 
I wanted.  And I got some really study cartons to carry them in.

Walter

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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 90 10:33:33 PDT
>From: marcs at SLC.COM (Marc San Soucie)
Subject: Getting One's Mitts On Bottles

Keith Abbey asks:

> Has anyone come up with some creative ways of obtaining bottles? I just don't
> drink enough beer to get the amount of bottles I need. How has everyone else
> done it? Any tips or hints would be greatly appreciated.

A common problem among those of us who brew far more than we can drink, but the
solution offers itself within the problem statement. You brew more than you
drink, therefore there is beer in excess. You have buddies with the opposite
problem, no? Who drink more than they brew? So you sidle up late into a
drinking session and offer to exchange full bottles for empties. The inebriated
one mulls this over for an instant, calculating the relative net worth of his
empties and your fulls, and keels over from the blinding stupidity of your
gesture. The next morning, sporting a wicked corn-beer hangover, he deposits
seventeen cases of Lone Star long-necks in your garage, and drives away a
moment later with a case of homebrewskies. He chuckles at his luck, while you
moan at the thought of cleaning the butts out of all those bottles. But entropy
has been pushed back for a brief glorious moment, and the net happiness of the
world has been increased.

    Marc San Soucie
    The John Smallbrewers
    Portland, Oregon
    marcs at slc.com


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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 90 11:41:44 MST
>From: Steve Dempsey <steved at longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu>
Subject: Re: How to obtain bottles???


In HBD#525 exile at Corp.Sun.COM (Keith  Abbey - TSE) writes:

> Has anyone come up with some creative ways of obtaining 
> bottles?  I just don't drink enough beer to get the amount of
> bottles I need.  How has everyone else done it?

Go down to the friendly neighborhood beer store and ask them to
bring out some pre-emptied returnable bottles.  They'll charge you
the normal rent of $0/case and deposit of about $2/case.  But you
neither have to pay for the beer nor drink it :-).  Get an extra
case or so and return the damaged/worn/very_filthy ones after
sorting through them.  Then comes the fun and exciting chore of
cleaning.  I'm sure you know what to do next.

 -Steve

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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 90 11:07:56 -0700
>From: noah at cs.washington.edu (Rick Noah Zucker)
Subject: How to get bottles

>From: exile at Corp.Sun.COM (Keith  Abbey - TSE)
>Subject: How to obtain bottles???
>
>        Has anyone come up with some creative ways of obtaining bottles?
>I just don't drink enough beer to get the amount of bottles I need.  How
>has everyone else done it?  Any tips or hints would be greatly appreciated. 

	A couple of ideas:

	1) I got a lot of my bottles from a friend who posted something
	   on our departmental newsgroup asking people to bring him bottles.
	   Ask people at work to help you out if it is that sort of place.
	
	2) Seattle has curbside recycling.  On Thursday nights I can go out
	   and get bottles from my neighbor's recycling bins.  The 65 year
	   old woman across the street from me drinks a lot of champagne.
	   It works out really well.
	
	3) I have a friend who occasionally asks a local restaurant to
	   save a day's worth or bottles for him.
	
	4) If you don't have curbside recycling, you still might try
	   going to a recycling center.  If you live in a state with a
	   bottle bill, you could pay $0.05/bottle.

	What's really annoying is how many micros use bottles with
threaded caps.  Of course I don't buy too much microbrew since I started
brewing (just bottled my sixth batch) except for Sierra Nevada (to
culture the yeast).

						    Rick Zucker

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Date:         Thu, 25 Oct 90 14:45:15 EDT
>From: Chris Brown <CBO at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:      This Is A Test


  Sorry to waste the bandwidth, but I just got added to the list and I
wanted to make sure I can post.   I'm waiting for my first digest with
baited breath.
                                                        Toapher

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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 1990 15:25:16 EDT
>From: Marc Rouleau <mer6g at virginia.edu>
Subject: Ale Yeast for "Lager" Recipes?

I have a couple of ale yeasts from Wyeast (one English, one German -- I
don't have the numbers handy), and I'd like to make something akin to
Papazian's Rocky Raccoon Lager.  What do y'all think?  I'll be fermenting
and storing this brew at 60-75 degrees.

In general, how will using ale yeast where lager yeast is called for
change the outcome of a recipe?  Is lager yeast mainly important for
its ability to ferment at low temperatures or are there other factors
as well?

    -- Marc Rouleau

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Date: 25 Oct 90 12:33:55 PDT
>From: stevef at sidd.SanDiego.NCR.COM
Subject: still too much sugar


Just to finish my story on corn sugar in the wort, my Amber Light
came out tasting pretty good but a little tart. It makes a
good thirst quencher--certainly better than Bud, etc. I doubt, though,
if I ever use corn sugar again except for the priming.

On another topic, I'd like to try approximating a Bass Ale. Does
anyone have a good starting point for me, recipe-wise?


	-steve f

- ---------
stevef at sidd.sandiego.ncr.com


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Date: 25 Oct 90 13:56:07
>From: Rad Equipment <Rad_Equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: New Participant

                       Subject:                               Time:12:23 PM
  OFFICE MEMO          New Participant                        Date:10/25/90
Greetings all!  I have been reading the HBD for the past year, somewhat
sporadically, via local BBS and CI$.  Finally I am able to subscribe directly
through a new mail link established by my department's LAN.

I thought I'd introduce myself by way of my first message to the HBD:

I am Russ Wigglesworth, a San Andreas Malt (and Boston Wort Processor).  I have
been fairly active in the CI$ Forum since it began and know some of you from
there.  I also met some of you in Oakland in June.  I am, to borrow Chuck Cox's
phrase, just another "overpaid and underworked techno-weenie" at the UCSF
Medical Center in San Francisco.  I am a novice brewer and long time consumer
of fine beers who is always interested in learning something new.  I make no
claims at expertise, however like the rest of you, I have my opinions.  I look
forward to exchanging views via the Digest.

Some comments about the recent AHA/BJCP discussions:

First of all, I strongly suggest that all comments be forwarded to the powers
that be (as it were) at the AHA.  I hear much valid criticism of the AHA and
its events from homebrewers around the country, most of which never reaches
those who should be aware of it.  I agree with Chuck Cox that the AHA is an
organization with the potential to democratically serve ALL homebrewers.  And,
that the change must be initiated from within by brewers who will participate
in the process.  The same holds for the BJCP and the National Competition. 
Active membership and frequent communication are key in tailoring any group. 
If you are a BJCP judge and you see problems, say so to the people in charge. 
If you are not part of the BJCP because of specific reasons or complaints, make
them known as well so that they can be addressed.

I can say from my own experience that the AHA is making an effort to correct
the poor organization of the National First Rounds by regionalizing them and
planning well in advance for the anticipated 2000 entries.  Plans are in the
works to attract more judges to these regional 1st rounds and to set guidelines
for the judging so that there is (positive) consistency between the three
regions.

I also believe that the AHA could be doing more to find and address comments
and criticisms like those which appear here and at the various clubs around the
nation.  The CI$ Forum does not get as much of this type of discussion as the
HBD.  I don't know what can be done to change this outside of continuing to
pass along any such dialogs and hope that they make some impression.  It would
be nice if at least one of the members of the Board of Advisors was a
participant here.

If possible, a copy of the comments referred to in HBD 525 should be forwarded
to the Advisors.  Chuck, since you have access to Bill Murphy, perhaps you
could do it (if you don't already!).

Anyhow,  I tend to get on a soapbox from time to time and I guess now is one of
those times.  With luck I have not offended anyone.  I look forward to your
replies.

RW...




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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 90 10:57:45 PDT
>From: robertn at fm1.intel.com (JEEPSRUS)
Subject: cool weather fermentations


David S. Brown writes...

<When I was touring a Portland Microbrewery I found the fermentation
<room was refregerated, though they make ales.  The Brewmaster replied
<that the fermentation vessels were well insulated, and the act of
<fermentation and the insulation was enough to keep the temperature
<correct.  He added that when fermentation was complete, the beer would
<slowly cool to the temperature of the refrigerate room giving them a
<controlled storage environment.

In the interest of lower energy bills, I kept my house very cool last
winter. This did make things tuff when it came time to brew. So, I simply
wrapped my primary with a very heavy blanket. It fermented away just as
happy as could be. In fact, on of my best beers was fermented in this
manner.

One item I saw in the instructions for one of my first beers was interesting.
It consisted of a lagre wooden box and a thermastat controlled light. In
small areas, youd be suprised at the amount of heat a 60 watt light bulb
gives off. 

As a matter as a fact, that's what I've done for my dogs at times. I'd take
my drop-light from the garage and hang it in the dog house. Presto, a warm
happy dog!

<I definitely don't need this now, it tends to be warm all year
<around, here in CA.  But, I thought, if I ever return to cold
<climates, I would try it out.  

Make a trip to Sacramento this January, when it gets into the mid twenties.
I've been around colder places, but that's still a might bit chilly :-)

<Maybe you could use one of those
<blankets they use to wrap water heaters.

Try the army-navy surplus store. Pick up one of those heavy wool blankets.
That'd probably work great, and be fairly cheap. Those water heater blankets
usually have fiberglass insulation. You dont wat that stuff near where you
brew your beer.

RobertN
robertn at fm1.intel.com


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Date:    Thu, 25 Oct 90 19:10 EDT
>From: "Eric Roe" <KXR11 at PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Distillation

In recent HBD's I've noticed some discussion on why Uncle Sam
doesn't want his citizens distilling their own spirits.  I
remembering reading a book about bootlegging and recall two good
reasons.  First of course is money.  Taxes on a spirits amount to
some serious bucks for the feds.  Secondly is a health reason.
Apparently bootleggers would use old lead pipes (from radiators, etc.)
to do the distillation.  This, of course, caused lead poisoning.


                                           Eric

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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 90 22:10:29 EDT
>From: Jim Griggers <brew at ncrmud.Columbia.NCR.COM>
Subject: Art's Brewing Supplies


Michael Metheny asked me to send him information on Art's Brewing
Supply.  Since I am having trouble sending mail to him, and maybe
other people are interested in Pepsi kegs for $25 +$2 +shipping, I
will post this to the HBD. 

Here is the info you requested:
	Art's Brewing Supplies
	640 So. 250 West
	Salt Lake City, Utah 84101
	801 533-8029
Hours: Tuesday thru Saturday 12noon till 6pm Mountain Time
Cards: Visa and Mastercard

I have no interest in Art's other than I was satisfied with the two
kegs I ordered from them.

PS: (note to Pete Soper)  Pete, I have gotten every mail message
    that you have sent me, but I am having no luck at all getting a message
    to you at encore.com .  I am going to send you a note by US. Mail if
    all else fails.  Your mail traveled this path:  ncrmud!ncrcae!ncrlnk!
    relay.cs.net!encore.encore.com!maxzilla.encore.com!soper  Note that
    uunet does not talk to hubcap,  since mail to hubcap!uunet gets bounced.

Jim Griggers   (brew at ncrmud.Columbia.NCR.COM)


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Date: 	Wed, 24 Oct 1990 17:52:13 -0400
>From: hplabs!ames!gatech!bnr-vpa!bnr-rsc!crick (Bill Crick)
Subject: Specific heat?

Anyone know the specific heat of malted barley?
Metric units preferred IE: joules/g deg K, but
even BTU/ lbs deg F would be OK as long as its in British 
pounds, BTU, and Deg F ;-)

When is a gallon not a gallon? Whan the ounces are different ! at #$%%&*#&#^ at 

Bill Crick



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End of HOMEBREW Digest #526, 10/26/90
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