---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Conversion brew/Bass substitute (Tony Rossini)
  RE: Beer Hunter Tapes (Barry Cunningham)
  Carp Ale (Danny-Boy)
  Legal Issues in 'Bama (jbergmann)
  55 gallon trash container   (card)
  Carp Ale recipe (as I did it)... (Gary Mason  01-Nov-1990 1151)
  Romulan ale (Chip Hitchcock)
  Flowers in beers (Craig L. Flowers)
  Re: Cherries in the Snow (Andrius Tamulis)
  Plastic Bottles (dreger)
  Homebrew Comps (Rad Equipment)
  Weights and measures (Mike Charlton)
  Homebrew Comps (Rad Equipment)
  Homebrew Digest #528 (November 01, 1990) (Dave Brown)
  Length of Homebrew Digest (Carol J. Botteron)
  Oregon Brewwater (Marc San Soucie)
  AHA Club Competitons (synchro!chuck)
  re: AHA National Competition (a bit long)) (synchro!chuck)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Nov 90 08:14:26 EST
>From: rossini%biostat at endor.harvard.edu (Tony Rossini)
Subject: Conversion brew/Bass substitute


> Since my virgin batch turned out so well, and since it was supposed to be a 
> poor man's substitute for Bass, I'd recommend Carp Ale.  The recipe is from the 
> Z... special issue (1986?) on extract brewing.  Recipe is by Russ Schehrer.  
> I'd insert the recipe, but it isn't with me.  Ask if you want it. It was pretty 
> simple and inexpensive as well.

I'd appreciate a copy if you get around to typing it in!
Thanks,
 -tony
(rossini at biostat.harvard.edu)

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Date: Thu, 1 Nov 90 07:44:51 EST
>From: abvax!calvin.icd.ab.com!bwc at uunet.UU.NET (Barry Cunningham)
Subject: RE: Beer Hunter Tapes

I got my copy of the Beer Hunter tapes about 2 weeks ago.  The thing that I
found most enjoyable about them was the fact that they contained NO commercials.
This makes an immense difference in the mood of the shows (or at least in my
mood while watching the shows).  For me, the price is absolutely worth it:
for ~ $36 I get 3 hours of Michael Jackson doing a nice relaxed show with
no commercials (conducive to RDWHAHB), Michel Jackson's Pocket Guide to Beer,
and the use back of the video tape on which I had taped some of the Beer
Hunter episodes with commercials.  But then I'm an overpaid techno-weenie
in a MINK household.  If I were still a starving student, my values might
be different.

| Barry Cunningham                {cwjcc,pyramid,decvax,uunet}!bwc at icd.ab.com |
| Allen-Bradley Company, Inc.     or                       ICCGCC::CUNNINGHAM |
| 747 Alpha Drive                 or                    BWCUNNIN at MRGSD at REMNET |
| Highland Hts., OH 44143         phone: (216) 646-5241   FAX: (216) 646-4484 | 


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Date: Thu, 1 Nov 90 09:00:13 -0500
>From: dbreiden at mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Danny-Boy)
Subject: Carp Ale


Gary Mason--I tried to email, but it bounced.  I would like to get a copy
of the recipe you mentioned--sounds like a very worthwhile brew.

Regarding my cidery-ale:  thanks for all the comments.  In our rush to blame
something other than the recipe, we forgot that we introduced another variable.
This was our first try with Red Star ale yeast.  We've had close to stellar   
results with their lager yeast, but this stuff is taking much longer to mature.
I guess you get marginal yeasties and give them corn sugar to munch on, and
out come the appley smells and tastes.  Temperatur of fermentation was in the
65-70 degree range--probably closer to 65.

Yours etc.  Danny-Boy

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Date: Thu, 01 Nov 90 09:19:00 PDT
>From: jbergmann at aqlan.ssc.af.mil
Subject: Legal Issues in 'Bama

Howdy,
 
      Well, I've brewed my first batch, didn't worry, and it came out just
fine :). However, it seems that Murphy has it in for me, and not two days
after my unveiling, the Montgomery Advertiser ran a story about some
bootleggers that were caught with some 500 gallons of moonshine.  The story
went on to say that:
 
        '...According to the Alabama Beverage Control Board
        (ABC), it is legal to make up to five gallons of
        wine a year at home, distillation of liquor and beer
        is illegal in Alabama...'
 
    Now this caught my eye rather quickly.  Now I know that it is illegal to
distill spirits and all, and at first I assumed either a misprint or that for
some reason they were telling us that distilling beer was illegal.  (Why
would anyone want to distill beer???).  So I called the local ABC office in
Montgomery, and spoke with one of the agents in enforcement.  He said:
 
     '... yea, that's right. You cannot make beer at home in Alabama...'
 
    Needless to say, this caused me grief.  When I asked him about the
availability of ingredients, supplies, etc., he said it was the same as
rolling papers and other paraphenalia, legal to have, not to use.  He went on
to say that, yes, the federal government made it legal in th 70's, but that
the Alabama legislature never got around to putting it on the books.
 
    So I come to you, oh brewnet, HELP!!!!!!!!!  Was this guy speaking truth
to me, or just blowing smoke.  I know that there are several home brewers in
Huntsville, and really need to know if the revenuers are going to break down
my door and steal my yummy beers.  Any input would be most appreciated...
 
Relaxing and not worrying (too much),
Johnny B.
Internet: jbergmann at aqlan.ssc.af.mil
(Standard disclaimer, etc.)
 
 
 
 
 

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Date: Thu, 1 Nov 90 10:36:09 EST 
>From: card at APOLLO.HP.COM
Subject: 55 gallon trash container  

      

   Jeffrey Blackman's "6 Cooks Ale" brewed in a 55 gallon trash 
   container sounds like a great idea for large batches. Why not?

   You could even complete primary fermantation in it to reduce risk 
   of contamination (to say nothing about simplicity). Just drill a hole 
   in the cover for the air lock stopper and you've effectively got a closed
   fermentation vessel. Also, pitching temp could be reached very fast if 
   you pre-cool boiled water before brewing. 
                       

   Perhaps Mike Schrempp could could really get scientific but my 
   simple averaging "algorithm"  :- ( never claimed to be a math whizz) 
   says:                  


             
            15 gallon batch 
          *******************


   START:   12 GALLONS      45F  
          +  3 GALLONS     210F
           ----------------------
            15 GALLONS     78 F




   /Mal (I better start saving bottles) Card

  
          
   

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Date: Thu, 1 Nov 90 08:53:38 PST
>From: Gary Mason  01-Nov-1990 1151 <mason at habs11.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Carp Ale recipe (as I did it)...

I have had several requests for this, so here it is!

The recipe is based upon Russ Schehrer's Carp ale from the 1986 Zymurgy 
special issue.

3.0 # M&F Light DME
3.0 # M&F Amber DME
1.0 # Crystal malt
2.6 oz Fuggles  at  4.7% = 12.22 AAU
1.0 oz Kent Goldings  at  5.9% = 5.9 AAU
Pinch of Irish Moss
1 pkt Brewer's Choice #1098 (British Ale - Jun 90)

Started the yeast in 1 qt of sterile starter medium (1 C M&F Amber DME in 1 qt
water).  That was about 28 hrs after breaking the inner seal, and about 10 hrs
before beginning the initial boil.  Less than 12 hours to full kraeusen cover 
on the starter (the starter container was a 1 gal cider jar fitted with a <" 
ID blowoff tube). 

Bring 2< gal water to boil with crystal (crushed with a rolling pin) in a bag. 
Remove crystal when the boil starts (about 60').  Fill to 6< gal, add DME, and
bring to a boil.  After boiling 10 min, add Fuggles.  At 55 min, add a pinch 
of Irish Moss.  At 58 min add Kent Goldings.  Cool with immersion chiller to 
800 (about 18' - only racked about 4= gal into the primary).  Pitch the yeast. 
Ferment at about 700 for a week.  Rack to the secondary (about 4< gal - found 
that the fermentation was already complete). Rack to the keg (5 days later)
with 1= pt of sterile starter.

Hops might be a little light; mouth feel could be greater; the brew is cloudy .
Slightly strange nose, but not objectionable.  FG 1.016.

Cheers...Gary

P.S. I have lost the mail from one requester, so if you don't get this by       
     E-mail, you know who you are 8')


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Date: Thu, 1 Nov 90 11:30:27 EST
>From: cjh at vallance.eng.ileaf.com (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Romulan ale

   Color: I wouldn't be sure of anything giving you that sapphire color
naturally. You could try steeping cornflower petals after the boil, but
I wouldn't bet on either flavor or color. Note that blueberries are blue
only on the outside; anything containing blueberry pulp gets a dark
purplish-red color. The idea of mashing with blue corn is interesting,
but I wouldn't bet on preserving even the muddy blue I've seen in blue-corn
chips; it could be eaten by enzymes or coagulated with the trub (cf exhibit
at Carlsberg, which identified a major component of chill haze as being the
same substance that turns rhododendrons red---they were trying to gene-splice
barley with snips from albino rhododendrons).
   Style: from the way the blue stuff was handled (1 inch in a 1-foot flute,
no head) I'd say whoever thought of the stuff thought "ale" just meant
"exotic alcohol"; if the servings were that small it was probably as strong
as whiskey. So you'd need to start with some Romulan yeast that could ferment
to 40% alcohol....

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Date: Thu, 1 Nov 90 11:47:13 CST
>From: flowers at csrd.uiuc.edu (Craig L. Flowers)
Subject: Flowers in beers

>Someone recently posted a question about using flowers in brewing.
>....

Well, from the person who ought to know, let me take a quote from a famous
oldie (can't remember singer or title):

	"If this is what it feels like to be used,
	use me till I'm all used up."

I like to think there's a little part of me in every beer I brew.

 -Craig FLOWERS
(flowers at csrd.uiuc.edu)

Sorry gang, couldn't pass it up.

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Date: Thu, 1 Nov 90 12:15:54 CST
>From: tamulis at dehn.math.nwu.edu (Andrius Tamulis)
Subject: Re: Cherries in the Snow


The only way I know of to shorten the aging time for certain brews that 
require it is to have plenty of faster-aging brew available. It helps
pass the time.

Andrius.

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Date: Thu, 1 Nov 90 10:29:05 PST
>From: dreger at seismo.gps.caltech.edu
Subject: Plastic Bottles


All this plastic bottle talk has interested me.  I'm a kegger but when you
want to bring some beer somewhere having a smaller container is nice.
I was wondering if anyone has experience in bottling kegged beer into
one of those 1 to 2 litre plastic bottles.  I don't have a counter pressure
filler, and am also wondering if simply filling from the bottom using an
extension on the tap is sufficient to limit contaimination and OXIDATION,
or should the beer be quickly consumed after bottling?

Thanks
Doug Dreger


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Date: 1 Nov 89 11:19:10
>From: Rad Equipment <Rad_Equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Homebrew Comps

REGARDING                Homebrew Comps
In response to Craig Flowers' comments on the "competitive" aspects of
homebrewing in HBD #528:

I couldn't agree with you more as far as "Winning" being the focus of homebrew
competitions.  However, the underlying and primary basis for these competitions
is supposed to be feedback to the brewer about his/her beer.  I do not enter
many competitions, because as a rule I am too lazy to bottle my beer.  Also, I
have plenty of local HB'ers to come by to give me feedback.  Many brewers who
are more isolated may find the comps helpful when looking for pointers about
their products.  This is why the BJCP stresses the need for the judge to
suggest possible problem areas to the brewer when trying to identify the cause
of a particular flaw.  I do enjoy judging at the comps.  It provides me with a
reason for honing my skills and developing my palate, beyond examining my own
beers.  It also allows me a chance to see what a wider range of brewers are
doing with their skills, often giving me something to aspire to.

What bothers me about the competitions is the weight put on the "Winning"
especially when the AHA bestows the title of "Homebrewer of the Year" on the
Best of Show winner from the National each year.  To me, such a title should
encompass much more selection criteria than merely a single batch of beer!  I
make no slight of past winners' achievements, however, I think things should be
changed in the future, the very least of which should be dropping the title
from the comp.

The whole idea behind a hobby is to have fun, or at least enjoy doing it, yes? 
The prizes and recognition at competitions are completely secondary to me. 
They are gravy!  Even the social aspects of the events are more important to
me.  The fact that some people take winning as the primary reason for their
being homebrewers can get in the way at times, however if I concentrate on my
reasons for being there and not theirs', I can live with it.  There is plenty
of room in the homebrewing community for all points of view.  As long as you
enjoy what you're doing, who cares?

May the yeast be with you...  Russ Wigglesworth...




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Date: Thu, 1 Nov 90 13:21:33 CST
>From: Mike Charlton <umcharl3 at ccu.UManitoba.CA>
Subject: Weights and measures

Since I seem to have gaffed about the size of fluid oz., I figured I'd
better check my facts.  Here is a table showing the relative sizes of
different weights and measures.  The data for Imperial measurements are
from Dave Line's "Big Book of Brewing" and the data for US measurements
are from "The New York Times Cook Book" by Craig Claiborne.
One thing to note:  Line's measurements aren't very precise (ie. they are
rounded off).

Dry Ingredients
- ---------------
                      Grams as            Grams as
  #  ounces            US oz.              Imp oz. 
- -------------        ----------            -------  
  1                     28.35                 ~30   
  4                    113.40                 113   
  8                    226.80                 226   
 16 (1 pound)          453.60                 453   
 80 (5 pounds)        2270                   2267   

The column marked ounces gives the number of ounces (US and Imperial).
The columns marked Grams as * oz. give the number of grams if you take the
oz. as being * (either US or imperial) oz.

I think it is fairly clear from the table that for weight 1 imperial oz.
is the same as 1 US oz. and that 1 imperial pound = 1 US pound (at least
I got something right :-)).

Liquid Ingredients
- --------------------
                       ml as               ml as
  #  ounces            US oz.             Imp oz.
- ---------------      ----------          ---------
  1                     29.573               28
  8 (US 1/2 pint)      236.59               224     (*)
 10 (Imp 1/2 pint)     295.73               284
 16 (US pint)          473                  448     (*)
 20 (Imp pint)         592      (*)         568

(*) -  These values are not listed in the books I consulted.  I just
       multiplied from a previous entry in the table.

I think it is also clear that 1 fluid oz. US is NOT EQUAL to 1 fluid oz.
imperial.  I am willing to accept 25/24 US:Imperial as a reasonable value
(not having a calculator handy).  Please note in the above table, the 224 oz.
Imperial is NOT 1/2 US pint and that 295.73 oz. US is NOT 1/2 Imperial pint
since we have shown the sizes of the ounces to be different.  The references
to pints are just handy if you want to know how many oz. of the same units
are in the pint of that unit system.
                                 Mike Charlton
                                 (the completely confused)

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Date: 1 Nov 89 14:00:41
>From: Rad Equipment <Rad_Equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Homebrew Comps

REGARDING                Homebrew Comps
In response to Craig Flowers' comments on the "competitive" aspects of
homebrewing in HBD #528:

I couldn't agree with you more as far as "Winning" being the focus of homebrew
competitions.  However, the underlying and primary basis for these competitions
is supposed to be feedback to the brewer about his/her beer.  I do not enter
many competitions, because as a rule I am too lazy to bottle my beer.  Also, I
have plenty of local HB'ers to come by to give me feedback.  Many brewers who
are more isolated may find the comps helpful when looking for pointers about
their products.  This is why the BJCP stresses the need for the judge to
suggest possible problem areas to the brewer when trying to identify the cause
of a particular flaw.  I do enjoy judging at the comps.  It provides me with a
reason for honing my skills and developing my palate, beyond examining my own
beers.  It also allows me a chance to see what a wider range of brewers are
doing with their skills, often giving me something to aspire to.

What bothers me about the competitions is the weight put on the "Winning"
especially when the AHA bestows the title of "Homebrewer of the Year" on the
Best of Show winner from the National each year.  To me, such a title should
encompass much more selection criteria than merely a single batch of beer!  I
make no slight of past winners' achievements, however, I think things should be
changed in the future, the very least of which should be dropping the title
from the comp.

The whole idea behind a hobby is to have fun, or at least enjoy doing it, yes? 
The prizes and recognition at competitions are completely secondary to me. 
They are gravy!  Even the social aspects of the events are more important to
me.  The fact that some people take winning as the primary reason for their
being homebrewers can get in the way at times, however if I concentrate on my
reasons for being there and not theirs', I can live with it.  There is plenty
of room in the homebrewing community for all points of view.  As long as you
enjoy what you're doing, who cares?

May the yeast be with you...  Russ Wigglesworth...




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Date: Thu, 1 Nov 90 14:11:37 PST
>From: brown at ocelot.llnl.gov (Dave Brown)
Subject: Homebrew Digest #528 (November 01, 1990)

Kevin of gozer writes:
- ----------------------
	 In Homebrew Digest #527, Paul L. Kelly <pkel at psych.purdue.edu> writes:

	 Yes!  I would love to make Romulan Ale!  Some friends who are fans of my
	 beer are also BIG Star Trek fans.  I think that this would be a HUGE hit
	 in the right cirlces.

	 I seem to recall that Romulan Ale is blue.  Is that right?  What interesting
	 flavors might a Romulan Ale have?  Would it be real strong?

Yes, I think it would knock your socks off, and thats not counting the
after taste!  A friend of mine made Goat Scrotum(sp) Ale.  That stuff
was rude the first few months.  I think if you added some more nasty
stuff like molasses, brown sugar and other adjuncts, as well as a lot
of dextrin to make it thick you would have the right start.  You would
want to keep the amount of dark malts down, so that you could get the
blue color.  Oh, kick in about a pound or two of honey to just to get
the alcohol up.

	 I wonder if the blue coloring would come out in the wort if one were to
	 mash a certain amount of blue corn?  

Don't think so.  

         
	 Perhaps blueberries would work too, but I don't expect that
         those overly manly Romulans would drink Ale that
	 tasted like fruit.  

Remember, Worf liked PRUNE JUICE. (O.K. so he's a KLINGON, they're
both mean and nasty) I think any recipe for Romulan Ale should
include Prune Juice.  As for the Color, if you want blue, blueberry's
got my vote.  First you can't always tell what a beer will taste like
based on what fruit you put in.  Some fruit tastes just don't come
through in the final product -- this I know from brewing fruited
beers. Secondly, that blue in blueberry is intense, so you wouldn't
have to add a lot of it to get a blue beer.  However, if you want a
blood-black color blackberry works well.

looking forward to concocting a recipe for Romulan Ale.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  David S. Brown                 |  This is not the official word of...
  brown at ocelot.llnl.gov          |  Lawrence Livermore National Laboratories 
  .__  / .__                     |  P.O. Box 808, 7000 East Av  L-619     
  |  \ \ |__)                    |  Livermore CA 94550       ME(415) 423-9878
  |__/ / |__)                    |  beer at ocelot.llnl.gov     FAX(415) 294-5054
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date:  Thu, 1 Nov 90 17:52:01 EST
>From: botteron at bu-it.BU.EDU (Carol J. Botteron)
Subject: Length of Homebrew Digest


Would it be possible for HD issues to be smaller (and more frequent)?
#528 is over 1000 lines long.  Much as I enjoy HD, I can't read all of
every issue, and it's frustrating to see an irresistable topic in the
Contents and have to skim 950 lines to get to it.  Not trying to make
extra work for the list keeper, but shorter HDs would be nice.

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Date: Thu, 1 Nov 90 09:35:28 PST
>From: winter%cirrusl at oliveb.ATC.olivetti.com (Keith Winter)

Someone asked (I forgot to save the name :-( ):

>I tried to culture some Sierra Nevada yeast (what a great beer!) using a
>modified version of the method in TCJOHB, but it didn't catch.  Is the yeast
>possibly too far gone to start up again? I have no idea how old the beer is
>or how it has been handled.  I've got two more bottles of SN Pale Ale, and
>I'd really like to get some yeast from them, so any info sent my way would
>be appreciated.

After having problems with over-carbonation on a couple of batches, I asked 
the HBD in general for help, especially regarding reculturing.  I received
some really good (and detailed) advice on how to do this, notably from
Pete Soper, Rick Zucker and David Baer.  I've now used the procedure four 
times without one single problem.  I'll pass along my methods and experiences.  

I always buy un-refridgerated SN Pale Ale.  I don't know if it makes any
difference but it's possible the yeast is more viable if it hasn't been 
cooled.

At Pete Soper's advice (and I think he's 100% correct), I use much more
careful techniques to assure sanitation.  This process is beginning with 
a very small yeast population and they won't be able to "get the upper
hand" on other nasty things that may be hanging around.  I use stronger 
bleach solutions and soak all equipment longer.  I wipe down all counter 
tops with this solution as well.  Also, I'm careful not to breath near the 
open culturing bottles.  I use brown bottles to minimize the effects of 
light on the growing yeast culture.

This is a two step process:

First, I boil two tablespoons of dried malt extract in about one cup of 
water for about 15 minutes, effectively making a light wort.  I include 
one-half teaspoon yeast nutrient and three or four hops pellets.  This I 
cool to pitching temp (77 degrees F). While cooling and once the temperature 
has fallen to under 120 degrees F, I aerate it by stirring.  I do this 
because boiling the wort has removed most of the O2.  Waiting until it's 
cooler than 120 helps prevent oxidation, I think.  The cooled wort is then 
poured into a sterilized 12 oz long neck, straining out the hops.  I carefully 
pour all but the bottom half-inch of two or three bottles of SN Pale Ale into 
glasses, being extremely careful to not disturb the yeast on the bottom.  I 
then flame the lips of the SN bottles with a butane cigarette lighter (to kill 
off any mold, etc), vigorously stir up the dregs to get the yeast off the 
bottom, pour the contents into the wort then affix a fermentation lock.  I 
usually just put the bottle at the back of the counter top somewhere out of 
the light.  I've found that I get a much quicker start from three bottles.  I 
see obvious activity within 12 hours and have a healthy kraussen in one day.  
I let this work until I see the kraussen begin to fall (usually about three 
days) and then proceed to the next step.

I now make a larger wort, using a half cup of dried malt extract and about
one and one-half cups water, adding one tsp yeast nutrient and six or seven
hops pellets.  Once the wort has boiled and cooled (again aerating the wort 
to introduce O2), I strain it into a sterilized 22 oz bottle.  I flame the 
lip of the 12 oz bottle of yeast starter from step one, swirl it around to mix 
it up and then pour it into the new, larger wort and affix a fermentation lock.
This starter will be ready in about two or three days.  I always wait for the 
kraussen to fall before I use it and just pitch it as I would any other yeast
starter after stirring it up to get the yeast off the bottom.

I've had excellent results with this method.  The 5 gallons of wort shows 
activity within a few hours and very active bubbling within 24 hours.  One 
thing I've noted is that this yeast is never as active as dried yeasts, such 
as Edme or Red Star.  The fastest I have seen the lock bubble is about once 
per second.  It takes about two weeks for the fermentation to complete, 
sometimes a little longer.  I have not had a case of over-carbonation since 
switching to this way of obtaining yeast.

	Keith Winter (winter at cirrusl)

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Date: Thu, 1 Nov 90 17:23:46 PST
>From: marcs at SLC.COM (Marc San Soucie)
Subject: Oregon Brewwater

Here's a question for the Oregon homebrewers, the answer to which may be of
interest to other parties as well.

I would like to know if anyone has come to some clear conclusions about the
quality of Portland-area tap water for brewing. In particular, I am in the Wolf
Creek Highway water district, and my impression is that the water is not
particularly hard, though I haven't fetched a water analysis from the district
yet. Has anyone got some brewing-oriented information about W.C.H. water?

And further, what do you Oregon brewers tend to do in the way of water
preparation? In my previous geographical incarnation I was blessed with
wonderfully rich hard water that needed no adjusting. Now, I am not so sure.
Comments?

    Marc San Soucie
    The John Smallbrewers
    Portland, Oregon
    marcs at slc.com


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Date: Thu Nov  1 15:43:08 1990
>From: bose!synchro!chuck at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: AHA Club Competitons


In HBD #527, Cher complains that she can't enter any of the AHA club 
competitions, because she isn't a member of a club.  This is an interesting 
point, and a complaint I hadn't heard before (I've heard most of 'em).  

Unfortunately, I don't have a solution, but perhaps I can justify the club 
competition concept.  Probably the most obvious aspect of the competition, is 
the fact that keeping entries down to one per club allows for a simple and 
focused national level competition.  Perhaps less obvious are the secondary 
goals of promoting local club membership and providing club members with some 
experience judging beers.  

I don't see any equitable way of allowing independent brewers access to the 
competition without making it unmanageably large and unfair to club brewers.  
Perhaps you could form your own club solely for the purpose of entering the 
competitions.  If you were sufficiently motivated, perhaps you could establish 
a national club for independent brewers.  I think the AHA definition of 'club' 
is sufficiently loose to allow for such an organization.  

 - Chuck Cox (uunet!bose!synchro!chuck) - Hopped/Up Racing Team -


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Date: Thu Nov  1 17:38:30 1990
>From: bose!synchro!chuck at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: re: AHA National Competition (a bit long))


I think that Dave Suurballe and I agree on the major problems of the AHA 
national competition, namely lack of organization and lack of highly 
experienced judges.  We even agree that the competition could easily be better 
organized and run.  However, I must take task with Dave's implication that 
somehow the AHA is to blame for the lack of experienced judges.  

Dave suggests that there should be no inexperienced judges at the National, 
even if that means only one judge per category.  I am afraid that such a 
policy would bring howls of protest from competitors.  Even an experienced 
judge has blind spots & lapses of judgement.  Having multiple judges helps 
even out the individual irregularities.  It is the responsibility of the the 
experienced judge(s) in a panel to coach the less experienced judges and to 
discuss the judging.  Most of the judges I have worked with appreciated 
insights into the style and were quite willing to reconsider and adjust their 
scores in order to increase consistency.  Some judges have suggested that I 
may exercise too much influence over less experienced judges, so you simply 
can't please everybody.  

The only alternative is to get more experienced judges, but the simple ugly 
truth is that there aren't very many and we don't grow on trees.  The national 
competition draws more experienced judges than any other competition, but they 
still represent only about one in five of the judges present.  There are only 
two ways that I can see to increase the number of experienced judges at the 
national: First, attract more of the existing experienced judges to the 
competition.  Second, create more experienced judges.  

You might get more experienced judges at the national if you offered to pay 
for their travel & lodging expenses, but you are still asking them to take 
time off from work and family.  This might double the number of experienced 
judges to two in five, but certainly won't eliminate all inexperienced judges 
as Dave would like.  My quick math shows such an incentive might cost as much 
as $25 extra per entry.  

You might create more experienced judges by offering similar incentives to 
judge regional and local competitions, but ultimately you would want to send 
them to Europe every few years to get a real education.  

I am all for any of these ideas, but who would be willing to pay the bill?  I 
spend well over $1000 per year and over two weeks of vacations and weekends 
just to judge various competitions including the national.  At most I might 
get a T-shirt or ribbon as compensation.  My beer trip to Europe this summer 
took two weeks and cost over $2500.  How many judges can afford to do this?  I 
am a well-paid self-employed computer consultant, but most judges have 
families and regular jobs.  It's easy to complain about lack of experienced 
judges, but the only solutions I see cost money and time and I don't hear 
anybody volunteering to pay.  

The bottom line is that there are very few experienced beer judges, certainly 
not enough to judge a national competition by themselves.  The number of 
experienced judges is increasing, but unless someone wants to start 
subsidizing their education, it will be a slow process.  The average judge 
probably does a couple of competitions a year and my go to Europe once or 
twice in their lifetime.  

As long as judges are unpaid volunteers who judge and train at their own 
expense, competitors and organizers will simply have to accept the expertise 
that is offered.  It's been said before, but I'll say it again: The only way 
you can improve the quality of beer judging is to become a quality judge 
yourself.  

 - Chuck Cox (uunet!bose!synchro!chuck) - Hopped/Up Racing Team -


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #529, 11/02/90
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