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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  Mouthfeel (beerking1)
  Mouthfeel and Body (Matt)
  Re;  Mouthfeel, body etc. ("Bill & Sara Frazier")
  Re: R: Mouthfeel=body=viscosity? (Kai Troester)
  RE: Mouthfeel=body=viscosity? ("Josh Knarr")
  Re: Mouthfeel=body=viscosity (Thomas Wilberding)


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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:14:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: <beerking1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Mouthfeel

Fred asks some questions, and makes some good points about 
mouthfeel/body/viscosity. I think the major thing your 
suggestion leaves out is the impact on carbonation (level,
quality, even kind of gas used) has on mouthfeel.
Not sure how to capture that, but I think that would make
two beers that measure the same by your methods still
exhibit different mouthfeel.

Lyle C. Brown
Beerking1 at verizon.net


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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 08:11:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matt <baumssl27 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Mouthfeel and Body

I am sure there are others much more qualified to address Fred's
questions, but for the sake of discussion here are some thoughts:

"Is what is often described as "mouthfeel" in a beer the same as 
"body" in a beer?" 

I think not.  I believe mouthfeel also encompasses aspects of
carbonation and even "drying" or "numbing" effects of certain phenols,
etc.

"And are these no more than the simple tactile sense of viscosity?"

If we restricted ourselves to a very specific notion of body, rather
than a broad definition of "body" or of "mouthfeed", then I think we
could say this.

"And continuing in that vein, I would guess that the majority of the 
viscosity of a beer is due to residual sugars and the relative 
amounts of water and alcohol in the beer."

I can't agree here, because I believe protien plays a huge (probably
greater) part in the sensation of body, and I suspect in viscosity as
well.  Therefore I think it's hard to define even a roughly "useful"
(i.e. correlated to sensation of body) quantitative measure from just
the alcohol, "dextrin", and water levels.  Protien levels in various
malts, mashing technique, adjunct levels and type of adjunct, process
variations that affect protein precipitation, etc, could play a role.

On the other hand, perhaps the viscosity of a degassed beer sample
could be correlated to some sensory characteristic.  Anyone know if
this has ever been experimented with?

Matt 


      


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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 11:29:49 -0500
From: "Bill & Sara Frazier" <bsfrazier at att.net>
Subject: Re;  Mouthfeel, body etc.

From: Fred L Johnson;

I am constantly frustrated in trying to translate people's perception
and description of tastes, aromas, and tactile impressions of beer
(and other foods for that matter) into something that is objectively
measurabIe. I grant you that we probably cannot easily "calibrate" of
our senses to a set of standards, so there is some limitation to
being able to describe the taste, smell, and feel of a beer in
objective terms. Nevertheless, we've managed to come up with a
bittering measurement (International Bittering Units) that have
served us pretty well, and I would like to see other parameters of
our brews be described in objective, measurable terms as we do with
gravity and bittering levels.

In that regard, I have a couple of simple questions:

"Is what is often described as "mouthfeel" in a beer the same as
"body" in a beer? And are these no more than the simple tactile sense
of viscosity? If so, one could actually measure/quantify "mouthfeel"
or "body" of a beer with a viscometer."

Fred - I believe you are correct.  But I bet the viscosity differences in a 
light, lager versus a big body ale are pretty small, but significant.  In my 
previous life as a research pharmacist we did measure viscosity of all sorts 
of liquids.

" I would guess that the majority of the
viscosity of a beer is due to residual sugars and the relative
amounts of water and alcohol in the beer."
Again you are probably correct here.  You might be able to correlate the 
body [ie.  viscosity] of a beer to the final gravity of wort flowing into 
the kettle.  I've been making beers for a couple of years in which I use 30% 
more grain than my 5-gallon recipe calls for.  I stop flow of wort into the 
kettle when I have enough fermentables in the kettle [once diluted to full 
volume with brewing water] to provide the OG I'm looking for.  This is very 
predictable.  These beers have substantial "body."  I was never able to 
achieve the mouthfeel of these beers before adopting this technique.  I 
leave quite a bit of fermentables behind in the tun...sg1040 is typical of 
the final wort flowing from the tun.

So, a person could make a series of beer where different final gravity of 
wort flowing into the kettle is measured.  Then evaluate the "body" of the 
finished beers.  You may be able to determine a minimum FG required to 
provide a noticeable "body" in your beers.  Of course if you have access to 
laboratory vicosity equipment it would be a much better experiment.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA 



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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 10:04:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kai Troester <kaitroester at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: R: Mouthfeel=body=viscosity?

> I am constantly frustrated in trying to translate people's perception  
> and description of tastes, aromas, and tactile impressions of beer  
> (and other foods for that matter) into something that is objectively  
> measurabIe. 

As an engineer, I do share this frustration. Though many of the sensory 
perceptions are measurable (IBU, aroma, sugar profile) it takes rather 
expensive equipment to do and is therefore out of reach for the common 
home brewer.

> And continuing in that vein, I would guess that the majority of the  
> viscosity of a beer is due to residual sugars and the relative  
> amounts of water and alcohol in the beer. 

A majority of a beer's body or mouthfeel is actually caused by proteins. 
There have also been studies that have shown that the affect of dextrines 
on the body of a beer is less than the contribution from beta glucans, 
proteins and ethanol. While a beer that is more viscous should also have 
more "body', a viscosity measurement would not include the affect that 
carbonation has on the perceived mouthfeel and body. I would be 
interested to see this data though, and maybe even a test that a home 
brewer could conduct with a minimal investment into equipment.

Kai Troester
MA, USA



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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:03:51 -0400
From: "Josh Knarr" <josh.knarr at gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Mouthfeel=body=viscosity?

I've always taken mouthfeel to equal texture. IE: Grainy, smooth,
broken glass (Sam Adams) etc.

Body is probably closer to viscosity since you can increase the body
with maltodextrin, but I would say the best, objective measurement
here is starch. Since you add starch to a porter to increase it's body
past stout style levels, a simple test would be to add iodine and come
up with Yet Another Color Grade of purple. Or come up with a similar
measurement to IBU where you know material X contributes Y ISU
(international starchiness units). I think a potato should be the
standard calibration of 100 ISU.

While we're making up standards, I think someone should simply use
their shoes as an adjunct to brewing beer and we can use that as a
standard of ILU (international leathery units) and ... oh no wait it's
entirely subjective and much more fun to try it yourself than read
beer reviews. :)


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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 16:14:13 -0400
From: Thomas Wilberding <tom at wilberding.com>
Subject: Re: Mouthfeel=body=viscosity

Hi Fred,

I believe mouthfeel is a bit more broad and encompasses all sorts of
tactile information beyond just viscosity. For example, carbonation
level be low, bright or spritzy. Alcohol warmth could be absent,
moderate or hot. Overall texture could be creamy (even with a low body
beer like an oatmeal stout or a dry stout on nitrogen). Sourness can
give a puckering sensation. Dryness and astringency are tactile
impressions on the tongue and palate. Diacetyl can give a slippery/
slick sensation on the tongue.

So residual sugar is one very important aspect of viscosity, body and
mouthfeel, but there is also alcohol level, CO2 level, protein levels
and types, starch levels, acid levels, mineral levels and other factors.

I think the FG of the beer gives you a pretty good expectation of the
viscosity before you drink it. If I tell you my Maerzen finished at
1.021 instead of the intended 1.011, you are going to expect cloying
sweetness and a lot of body before you take a sip. If I tell you my
Saison finished at 1.003 you are going to expect a bone dry beverage
with no body. I think your use of the word "correlated" is spot on,
but it really is a very complicated thing to analyze in a quantitative
way.

The BJCP study guide has some discussion of body vs. mouthfeel:
  http://www.bjcp.org/study.html

Tom Wilberding
Midland, MI


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