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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  Cleaning Conicals (le Man)
  Sanjey Keg Cleaning ("A.J deLange")
  Re: bottle or keg (Tim Howe)
  Conicals versus carboys ("Doug Moyer")
  Carboy vs Conical ("Michele Maatta")
  RE: New to Homebrewing; Plastic Bottles; HBD revival (stjones)
  Conicals (was Re: New to Homebrewing) ("Dave Larsen")
  Two-liter Bottles (was Re: bottle or keg) ("Dave Larsen")


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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 07:53:05 +0100
From: le Man <hbd at thebarnsleys.co.uk>
Subject: Cleaning Conicals

Forgive me for asking the obvious, but why do people fill their Conical 
with Star san to sanitise it?

Once clean (Say using hot Washing soda), simply rinse, allow to drain 
and then using a hand sprayer spray starsan round all the surfaces, and 
allow to drain from the bottom valve . . . seems a lot more economical 
to me.

Like others its good to see the HBD coming back to life.

Regards

- -- 
leMan (The brewer Formerly Known As Aleman)
Mashing In Blackpool, Lancashire, UK
http://www.ukhomebrew.info



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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 08:16:35 -0400
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Sanjey Keg Cleaning

I clean Sankeys using my kluge Sankey Keg Kleaner (I just made that up). 
I have a metal frame (put together from pre-punched angle stock from the 
Home Depot) on which I can invert the keg. I have a Micromatic stainless 
steel coupler from which the pea and gas check valves have been removed. 
These have been replaced with external manual shutoff valves (also from 
Micromatic). The "gas" port goes through a length of silicone hose to a 
stainless steel "J" made of staineless pipe. This hooks over the edge of 
an old 20 gal conical fermenter (on wheels so I can move it anywhere it 
is needed). The outlet at the bottom of the conical goes to the inlet of 
a 2 HP centrifugal pump which is sized this way because it is the same I 
use for CIPing the fermenters, not because it needs to be so hefty for 
keg cleaning. The output of the pump goes through a check valve and into 
a T. The side arm of the T goes to a piece of silicone hose to the beer 
port on the coupler. The top of the T goes to a compressed air line 
(through a manual valve and check valve). The connections (with the 
exception of the beer coupler and compressed air) are 3A Sanitary for 
quick assembly and disassembly.

In operation 5 gallons of hot water and a pound of lye go into the old 
conical. The valves on the coupler are opened and the pump started. Hot 
caustic gets shot up the spear and runs down the sides of the inverted 
keg. When the pressure has built up enough, caustic comes out the gas 
port and returns to the old fermenter. If it looks as if the pump is 
going to suck the fermenter dry faster than the caustic flows back into 
it then I open the air valve to admit compressed air which has the 
double effect of pushing caustic out of the keg faster and slowing the 
rate at which it comes in (the pump is effectively working against 
increased head). By admitting just the right amount of air I can 
establish equilibrium so that the caustic just keeps going round and 
round. After sufficient time (5-15 minutes depending on how many kegs I 
have to do) the pump gets shut off. Extra compressed air clears the 
caustic from the line to the keg and blows all the caustic back into the 
old fermenter. The keg is taken off and replaced with the next keg to be 
cleaned. At the completion of last keg the caustic out line goes to the 
drain. The process is repeated with water to thoroughly rinse the 
caustic out. Every few cleanings the water rinse in followed by a rinse 
made up of 5 gallons of hot water to which 200 mL of nitric and 200 mL 
of phosphoric acid have been added. This is for the beerstone. Lots of 
water follows the acid treatment for a couple of reasons. One is to get 
the all the acid out of the kegs. The other is to thoroughly dilute the 
chemicals that have been dumped. The acid and lye tend to neutralize one 
another but lots of water dilutes anything which isn't neutralized to 
the point where sensitive bacteria at the sewage treatment plant (whose 
performance depends on pH) are not disturbed.

This system works OK for me. I wouldn't want to do 100 kegs this way but 
for 2-4 at a time it is fine. I don't recomend the use of hot caustic by 
anyone who is not properly trained and who does not have the proper 
safety equipment (face shield, gloves....) and the same goes for the 
acid. These days there are alternatives.

A.J.


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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 09:23:36 -0400
From: Tim Howe <howe at execulink.com>
Subject: Re: bottle or keg


> I know it has been said (I even remember READING it
> "somewhere") that those plastic bottles that soda pop
> come in are NOT good for bottling beer.
>
> May I disagree?
>
> Thank you.
>
>   
The problem with plastic bottles is that they are not completely air 
tight - plastic breathes. What this means is that if you store your beer 
for any appreciable amount of time, it's going to slowly oxidize and go 
stale on you. If you want to test this out yourself, take a few bottles 
of your favorite beer and store them where you normally store beer for a 
year or two. The change you'll notice in the taste is due to oxidation. 
I bottled in plastic for years, and once I discovered that this staling 
doesn't happen with glass bottles, I tossed out most of my plastic 
bottles (I only use them for beer for fishing trips and the like now).

Cheers,

Tim


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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 09:32:19 -0400
From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com>
Subject: Conicals versus carboys

Daniel Chappell sez:

========================================
I'm curious to know whether or not cleaning a conical is really that easy: 
despite having a zillion little parts to sanitize, I'd think that'd involve 
making a big batch of Star San, tossing the stuff you want to sanitize in, 
and then giving it a few minutes to sit.  It seems easier to do that than to 
spend a bunch of time scrubbing away to get that *one* spot with a carboy 
brush.
========================================

In my experience, it is EASIER to sanitize a carboy than to sanitize a 
conical. No crevices to hide the bad guys. I haven't had very many infected 
batches in my 17 years (off and on) of homebrewing, but had my second batch 
in the conical get infected. Now I take out all of the parts, which is a bit 
of a pain. Enough so that I used carboys for the last two batches. (I will 
use the conical in the future - especially once I re-do the glycol-cooling 
system that I built for it...)

I rarely use the carboy brush. I really hate the design. It seems to risky 
with so few bristles at the end to protect the glass from the metal in the 
brush itself. I think there is potential out there for a better brush 
design.

No matter how much gunk there is in the carboy, I've been able to get it out 
with Straight A or PBW. I just make up a couple of gallons and invert the 
carboy (I'd hate to waste the stuff by making up the seven gallons required 
to completely fill a 6.5 gallon carboy...)

I haven't harvested yeast with my conical, but I HAVE done the secondary 
(and tertiary) fermentation in the conical. I've GOT to remember to put my 
dry hops in a bag instead of floating free, though. With carboys, a third 
transfer (before kegging) can keep the hops out of the keg (along with 
gelatin for clarification), but inside the conical it's a different story...

Brew on!
Doug Moyer
Troutville, VA
Star City Brewers Guild: http://www.starcitybrewers.org
Pictures of beer: 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/55257385 at N00/sets/72157603460612903/









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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:37:52 -0400
From: "Michele Maatta" <mrmaatta at gmail.com>
Subject: Carboy vs Conical

Hi Dan

Of course I cannot give my opinion on the conical, but I can say that
my experience with a carboy was not so bad. When you wash them out
immediately after using them, all the soil typically comes off without
much effort-- the brush is used around the top and the neck and it
takes care of the issue-- then using good sanitation habits takes care
of the rest.

Out of the 30ish batches (33 I think) I didn't have any infection and
I used both carboys, and (if cleaning them is an issue) the other
option is the 6 gallon bucket fermenter-- works great, is extremely
affordable, and you can get in there to clean it out without  effort.

I brewed on a very small scale but it seems I always had a stock of at
least 4 or 5 cases of good brew on hand.  It was small fun and a hands
on craft with a final product that was meant to be shared.  I used the
plastic for starters and switched to carboys to add visual aesthetics
so I could watch my "babies" during the brewing process :)

Enjoy your craft-- jump into at least a first 5 gallon batch via that
quick start Palmer method and see what happens-- it may grip you and
you'll never turn back :)

Cheers
Michele


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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 09:29:36 -0600
From: stjones at franklinbrew.org
Subject: RE: New to Homebrewing; Plastic Bottles; HBD revival

New to Homebrewing:
Daniel, I will second the suggestions to start with basic equipment  
and then move on if/when you decide you want to stick with it. I  
started out with Extract with steeping grains for a couple years and  
then decided to go All-Grain. I've never looked back on that decision  
and now have over 130 AG batches under my belt (actually, it is mostly  
over my belt ;^)). Most have been 10 gallons.

I moved from bottling to kegging a few years after going AG, and now  
have 20 cornies. I sure do like having draft beer on tap at home, but  
it is still a problem not having beer 'to go'. I recently decided to  
back off my batch size, and I am now brewing 8 gallon batches (net  
7.5). This gives me a keg (which I often prime instead of force  
carbonating), and then leaves enough to bottle condition a full case.  
It isn't too bad to sanitize and fill 24 bottles (as opposed to 100 if  
I bottled a 10 gallon batch), and that gives me an ample supply for  
takeout, gifting, entering competitions, or beer exchanges. And I  
still have my keg of draft.

Plastic Bottles:
Nick talks about using plastic bottles and how it isn't good for beer  
(but he doesn't believe it). I think that most of the time when folks  
say not to use them the reasons are: 1: they are clear, so if exposed  
to light the beer skunks; 2: they are slightly oxygen permeable, so  
that over the long haul the beer can become oxidized.

If you keep them out of the light and drink them within a few months  
then I'd venture a guess that the beer will be fine.

HBD Revival:
It is refreshing to witness the revival of the HBD (tho it wasn't  
totally deceased). We've gone something like 20 issues now without  
skipping a day, and I didn't realize how much I missed it. The number  
of posts is still down, but growing, and we are seeing some new  
members too. Since Jeff R hasn't shown up yet, I'll chime in with his  
'formerly semi-annual' pitch for all posters to specify their location  
when they post. You may find out about other homebrewers near you that  
you didn't know about.

Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN
State of Franklin Homebrewers
http://www.franklinbrew.org
[421.7, 168.5deg] AR





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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 09:11:55 -0700
From: "Dave Larsen" <hunahpu at gmail.com>
Subject: Conicals (was Re: New to Homebrewing)

> I was reading the very end of the last post in the previous HBD
> (mentioned cleaning conicals v. carboys), and an excellent point was
> raised: you can't get your hands inside a carboy to scrub it, and it
> seem to me that a carboy brush is a rather inefficient mechanism for
> cleaning.  I'm curious to know whether or not cleaning a conical is
> really that easy: despite having a zillion little parts to sanitize,
> I'd think that'd involve making a big batch of Star San, tossing the
> stuff you want to sanitize in, and then giving it a few minutes to
> sit.  It seems easier to do that than to spend a bunch of time
> scrubbing away to get that *one* spot with a carboy brush.
>

With a conical -- or at least with the Blichmann Ferminator -- it is
not just sanitizing the fittings, it is cleaning them as well.  I
usually let them soak in PBW over night, and then use a little brush,
used to clean a dip tube in a keg, to get in all the nooks and
crannies of the little fittings.  There are a lot of "one spots," as
you called them, cleaning conical fittings.  Afterwards, I then store
them in a large Ziplock freezer bag until the next time I use them.

Part of the chore of handling the little fittings is sanitizing them,
as well.  I have to have a spray bottle handy to spray under where the
fittings connect to the conical.  For instance, the rotating racking
arm has a large nut and bolt, of sorts, that fit together through a
hole in the conical, with a rubber seal.  You have to Teflon tape them
and the whole bit.  After that, you have to spray underneath them
before you screw them together, being sure not to touch the parts that
connect together.  From start to finish, putting a conical together,
it is not uncommon to spend an hour or two taping, sanitizing, and
putting together all the parts.

The other thing about a conical is getting the torque right on all the
fittings.  You don't want them too loose because they will leak.  You
don't want them too tight, as it will bend a damage the conical.  That
is why you have to leak test it after you put it together.

Cleaning the inside of a conical is quite easy.  I simply use a green
scrubby and scrub the inside.  It just takes a minute or two.

Taking it all apart, on the other hand, takes a little time.  You have
to unscrew all the parts, and clean all the Teflon tape off of them.
That can take a while.

I'm not trying to discourage you from getting a conical.  They are fun
pieces of equipment to have.  Just know what you are getting into when
you get one.  And, if you are a beginner, I would suggest getting a
few batches under your belt before you invest in one.

Dave
Tucson, AZ
http://hunahpu.blogspot.com/


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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:48:01 -0700
From: "Dave Larsen" <hunahpu at gmail.com>
Subject: Two-liter Bottles (was Re: bottle or keg)

>
> I have been using "used" plastic pop bottles for a
> couple of years now. The caps MAY wear out EVENTUALLY,
> but I have never had one fail.
>

Not to knock your use of two-liter bottles, I'm sure it is fine, but
this reminded me of when I first started into homebrewing, like 20
years ago.  This was in a time before brew shops, the internet, and
anything else that would give you information or guidance.  In fact, I
remember that the only place that you could get brewing supplies in
Tucson was at a local hobby shop, right next to the model airplanes.

We used to use plastic two-liter bottles to make mead, because we
simply did not know any better.  What we did is clean and sanitize
with chlorine bleach, and never rinsed it out very well.  In fact, if
it had a chlorine smell, that meant it was clean.

We boiled the crap out of our honey and water, adding a little lemon
juice.   Then, we poured it hot into our two-liter bottles with a
funnel, which would warp the bottle a bit, and let it cool to room
temperature overnight.  We then pitched a sprinkle of bread yeast into
each one.  After that, we capped them up.

After a day or two, they would start to bubble.  It was then the job
of whoever go home first to let off the pressure, so they would not
explode.   You had to be careful letting off the pressure, or the
bottle would bubble over, out of the loosened cap, like a soda that
had been shaken too hard.

After they were done fermenting, we placed the contents into Grolsch
bottles.  The yeast would settle out and make a thick layer in the
bottle.  The results would always taste very sweet and had a medicine
flavor, but we made everyone who came over try it, because it was "the
best thing on the planet."

We all have to start somewhere I guess. :)

Dave
Tucson, AZ
http://hunahpu.blogspot.com/


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