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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  Hop Questions/Advice (Robert Tower)
  re: Filtering instead of Vorlaufing? ("steve.alexander")
  Re: Counterflow Chiller and Summer (Fred L Johnson)
  Pretzel Recipe (Rick) Theiner" <rickdude@tds.net>
  beer with Indian food, cost of brewing, GBBF ("stoneandwing")
  Re: home brewing and selling on the side ("Dave Larsen")
  re: home brewing and selling on the side ("Chad Stevens")
  lead ("Chad Stevens")
  OSHA oversight ("Mike Maag")
  Do you think your CFC is clean? ("LANCE HARBISON")
  Re: Taj Mahal Clone? ("Michael P. Thompson")


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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 22:31:56 -0700
From: Robert Tower <roberttower at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Hop Questions/Advice

I grow Mt. Hood hops on the southern exposure side of my house. I have 
three sets of twine for each plant running from the ground up to the 
eaves of the house, which is about 11-12 feet (335-366 cm) of total 
growing length. In my climate, it's usually about early July by the time 
the bines have reached the top at which point they grow into a snarled 
mess as they have no where to go. Every year I threaten to experiment on 
one plant by cutting the terminal buds once they reach the top. With 
other plants this would simply encourage more side growth, but with hops 
it's unclear to me what would happen. Every year I either chicken out or 
simply procrastinate until it's too late. Either way, I never have 
actually tried it. Any thoughts about this? Can anyone see a downside to 
this kind of trimming?

As far as hop harvesting goes, would there be any detriment (besides 
taking up more freezer space) to simply freezing fresh harvested hops 
without drying them first? Reduced shelf life? Freezer burn? Some kind 
of enzyme action that would not be arrested by the freezing storage 
temperature? In the past I've done this with small amounts and used them 
utilizing the premise that fresh, undried hops weigh 5-6 times more than 
dried hops. I've done this with the hops at the beginning and end of the 
harvest (when there isn't enough harvested all at once to justify going 
to the trouble of drying them) and I haven't noticed any difference. 
However, I used them within a few months of freezing. Thoughts on this?

Bob Tower / Los Angeles, CA


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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 02:26:07 -0400
From: "steve.alexander" <-s at roadrunner.com>
Subject: re: Filtering instead of Vorlaufing?

Aaron Hermes writes ...

> In the Altbier Classic Styles Series book, Dornbusch states that most
> German breweries centrifuge or filter the wort after lautering, rather
> than vorlaufing as most homebrewers do.  I don't have the means to
> centrifuge wort at this point, but I'm wondering if anyone here has
> ever opted for filtering their wort through an inline filtration
> system of some sort.  What size filter would be appropriate?  It seems
> there would be disadvantages to filtering the wort through too fine a
> filter at that point, but I'm really just guessing there.  I'm more
> upset at learning that vorlaufing isn't part of the typical process
> these days...  It seems like I've been misled!

Either that or Dornbush is misleading (wouldn't be the first time).

There is a Belgian company called "Meura" which makes mash filtration
systems.  Kunze describes their use in some detail.  These consist of
many  plates" with some sort of a fine fabric material.   Their new
smaller unit handles "throws" of grist under 4 tonnes (I'd guess that's
around 200bbl capacity) so this is not for microbrews.  There was
several articles in around circa 1990 discussing wort quality from 
these.  They do extract more moisture form the grist.
http://www.meura.com

So the extra moisture extraction both makes better extraction from
malt and makes the waste grist easier to handle (less water)

FWIW Kunze devotes 11.5 pages to traditional lautering and 15.5pg
to membrane filtration.  There are great number of diagrams and
assembly detail needed to describe the complex membrane systems.
He considers the advantages of the modern filtration systems
(Meura 2001 by example, originally built in 1993) as:
1/ Lautering cycle time <2hrs (vs ~4hr for tun)
2/ Very low wort turbidity.
3/ oxygen uptake is minimal (compared w/ transfer to a lauter)
4/ Hammer mills can be used (intact husks not needed).
Unstated is the "flour" input grist and higher efficiency.

Kunze makes no mention of wort/mash separation by centrifugation
but this paper
www.ibd.org.uk/igbsite/business/training/files/Timscourses/
Tech%20summ.%20Feb%2003.pdf
discusses post lauter centrifugation to make the dry waste more
economic (not to recover wort). 
===

OK -so if you want to experiment with filters have at it, but
you need a vast membrane surface area and some way to introduce
sparge water and allow runoff.  This is not an in-line filter
sort of solution.  My reading is that it makes a lot of sense an
a large scale where an extra 3 percent of extract recovery
and making drier lighter grist waste is important.

If you want to look for advantages of clearer wort, you might
want to try conventional lautering then perhaps you could
remove more with in-line filters.

Reasonably clear sweet wort is important, as is oxidation
prevention but inserting a coarse inlet into the mash tun
and recirculating by pump for 10-15 minutes (RIMS style)
does a very effective job.  I personally don't care about
the minor efficiency concerns or waste mass.

 -S




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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 07:05:33 -0400
From: Fred L Johnson <FLJohnson52 at nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Counterflow Chiller and Summer

Mike found little improvement in chilling his wort with his  
counterflow chiller when he added a 5 foot coil of 3/4 inch coil in a  
bucket of ice to cool the incoming water.  Mike didn't say what the  
coil was made of, but I'm assuming copper tubing. The reasons for his  
lack of success are:

1) not enough contact time between the water and the walls of the  
prechiller tubing and
2) insufficient mixing of the ice water.

I would suggest that Mike needs to use a longer coil of copper tubing  
(e.g., 25 feet) that is narrower in diameter. Alternatively one could  
slow down the flow rate of the cooling water, but that works against  
you when the cooled water reaches the main chiller. Mike also needs  
to stir the bucket of ice/ice water around the prechiller coil to get  
maximum heat exchange in the prechiller.

Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA



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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 8:23:19 -0500
From: "Eric (Rick) Theiner" <rickdude at tds.net>
Subject: Pretzel Recipe

I have made Jeff's recipe a number of times and love the product.  
I don't know if the skin is as toothsome as Aaron wants, but all 
members of my family are very happy with it. 
 
I don't really deviate from the instructions, but here are some points 
that I find to be indispensable-- 
 
1) Give the pretzels a decent amount of time in the boil.  I can't 
remember the time requirement, but I go by appearance now.  I 
look for the dough to be turning brownish yellow under the influence 
of the lye. 
 
2) Use pretzel salt.  I tried table salt once and only once.  It makes 
them pretty soggy.  I now get pelletized salt from King Arthur:  
 http://www.kingarthurflour.com/  And don't worry about it going bad 
or sucking up moisture-- I keep it in the same brown bag that it came 
in and and am still using the same bag 3 years later. 
 
3) Waste no time in going from the boil to the oven-- as soon as I have 
a baking sheet full, in they go. 
 
4) And this is just a helpful hint.  I think Jeff even mentions it in his 
recipe-- If you are not using a silicone baking sheet like Silpat, get 
one.  They make getting your pretzels off of the pan soooooooo easy. 
 
Good luck with your skin. 
 
Rick Theiner 



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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:47:54 -0500
From: "stoneandwing" <stoneandwing at ij.net>
Subject: beer with Indian food, cost of brewing, GBBF

Michael P. Thompson asked about pairing beer with Indian
food.  I think there was a good reason that IPA became very
popular with the British troops stationed there in the
1800's.  These go really well with spicy Indian food. 
Scottish ales also go well.  Until they got new management
and reduced the beer list to Taj Mahal and a few other bland
beers, my favorite local Indian restaurant used to have
McEwins IPA (a Scottish 80/- ale) which went very well with
Sahg Ghost.  Perfect.
Here's my 2c on the cost of brewing.  All the equipment I
have I consider as assets, therefore the value has been
expensed out over several years.  Besides, some of it may
still give me a return on the investment if I should ever
decide to sell it.  My time doesn't count either, since it's
a hobby, so the actual cost of homebrew boils down to the
cost of the ingredients and the supplies like sanitizers and
kegging/bottling parts.  Having a freezer full of hops from
raffles and prizes at competitions doesn't hurt either.  I
love this hobby.
I looked at the list of U.S. beers that Steve sent for the
GBBF.  It's impressive.  I wish we could get some of them
where I live.  Firestone Walker, Victory, Brooklyn, Dogfish
Head and Stone have some beers on the list I'd really like
to try.  Is it true that the smallest sample offered is 1/2
pint?  Tough choices.  Have fun!
Jeff Gladish, Tampa  


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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 09:02:41 -0700
From: "Dave Larsen" <hunahpu at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: home brewing and selling on the side

>
> Just looking for some feedback.  Eventually, I want to open a type of
> brewpub of microbrewery.  In the mean time, I want to start it as a
> part time business.  I would like to brew in my garage or basement and
> sell beer locally or off a website.  This would allow me time to gage
> the business economics (feasibility) and give me time to practice,
> formulate recipes, etc.).  Does anyone have any tips or a website they
> can refer?  Looking for tips on operations, taxes, shipping, book
> keeping, etc.  Any help is appreciated.  Cheers.
>

I can't tell you how many times someone has said to me, "I'd like to
buy your beer."  I always respond, "I could go to jail for that.  How
about I just give you some -- no charge."

Dave
Tucson, AZ
http://hunahpu.blogspot.com/


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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:43:51 -0700
From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>
Subject: re: home brewing and selling on the side

Alex asks:

 ...I would like to brew in my garage or basement and
sell beer locally or off a website.  Does anyone have any tips or a website 
they can refer?

Yes Alex, I have a tip.  You can't do it:

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2008/aprqtr/pdf/27cfr25.211.pdf

27 USC 25.206 says you can't sell stuff made under 25.205 (that's homebrew). 
This is all taken from 27 USC, tax code.  This is just one law that keeps 
you from doing it, there are others.  Homebrew is homebrew, commercial brew 
is commercial.  Never the twain shall meet.

Chad Stevens
QUAFF
San Diego 



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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:55:37 -0700
From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>
Subject: lead

The concerns about lead are way overblown.  I've worked in environments with 
huge lead exposure and seen people poisoned by lead.  So poisoned their lips 
and fingernail beds turned blue.  Remove them from the lead exposure and 
they recuperate in time; no lasting effects.  So, if your homebrew makes 
your lips turn blue, by all means, throw out that Mexican carboy. 
Otherwise, I really wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

FWIW,

Chad Stevens
QUAFF
San Diego

(Of course after reading this post, you'll probably totally disregard my 
previous post re: US tax code and selling homebrew!)  :o) 



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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:04:33 -0500
From: "Mike Maag" <mikemaag at comcast.net>
Subject: OSHA oversight


Pat mentioned OSHA oversight as a potential problem for small brewpubs.  A 
nice "loophole" does exist.  OSHA only has jurisdiction regarding EMPLOYEE 
health & safety issues.  If the small brewer has no employees, AND is not 
incorporated, then no OSHA problems.  Being incorporated makes the brewer an 
employee of the corporation, and hence, covered by OSHA regs.  Also, if the 
brewer is a Partner in a non-encorporated brewpub, and there are no 
employees, there is no OSHA coverage.  If a non-incorporated, single brewer 
with no employees contracts with a restaurant to brew in a rented adjacent 
space, then no OSHA problems for the brewer.
Of course it is best to comply with OSHA regs.  I have sample programs I 
have written for a local brewpub which cover Hazard Communication, Permit 
Required Confined Space entry, Hazard Assessment, etc.,  which I would be 
happy to email (gratis) to any brewpub.  They are the same sample programs I 
leave with employers I inspect, to assist them with compliance, made 
specific to a typical small brewery. They simply must be "personalized" to 
the specific workplace.  I am a state of VA. OSHA inspector.

Brew Safely,
Mike Maag, Shenandoah Valley



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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:33:57 -0500
From: "LANCE HARBISON" <harbison65 at verizon.net>
Subject: Do you think your CFC is clean?

I work at a lab where I have access to a large ultrasonic cleaner.  I used 
it on my Chillzilla and did the same with my neighbor's Shirron.  Both were 
filled with a mixture of oxyclean (5 ml to 500 ml).  After the first pass on 
the Chillzilla the water was brownish.  For the second pass it was clear. 
With the Shirron the first pass had a greenish tint to it but had flakes of 
(probably) hop matter.  With the second pass it was a little less green but 
still had flakes.  I repeated the cleaning probably a total of 6 times with 
water flushing in between.  A few flakes still come out each time.  My 
neighbor is pretty faithful about running boiling water through his before 
and after each brew session.  Maybe a PBW soak is necessary.

Lance Harbison
Pittsburgh 




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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:59:53 -0600
From: "Michael P. Thompson" <thompson at ecentral.com>
Subject: Re: Taj Mahal Clone?

Some of you seem to have the wrong idea here. My friend has been a  
homebrewer for years, but the place I was talking about here is an  
actual brewpub, with all the appropriate licenses and such, and he's  
employed there. Of course we're not talking about selling homebrewed  
beer to the public.

An IPA is the logical first choice for beer with Indian food, but  
he's planning a Porter, a Pilsner, and an ESB too. I'm sure he'll be  
experimenting for a while to determine what beers work best with the  
food, and the owner is really on Taj Mahal, which is why I asked  
about it, but any suggesions would probably be helpful to him.

Thanks

Michael

- -- 
Doras Cuil Travel--Your one-stop travel source
Do you like to travel? How about wholesale, AND tax-deductible? Ask  
me how.
http://www.dorascuil.com





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