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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  Re: Temperature Control Cross-roads (Dick Adams)
  What makes the redest Red Beer? (mobrien315221mi)
  Wine? (Kevin Mueller)
  Temperature Control Cross-roads (mobrien315221mi)
  Re: Temperature Control Cross-roads ("David J. Kudrav")
  Re: Temperature Control Cross-roads ("Dennis Lewis")
  RE: Temperature Control Cross-roads ("Mike Sharp")
  R.O. mashing ("Jason Gazeley")
  R.O. mashing ("Jason Gazeley")


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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 01:01:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: rdadams at panix.com (Dick Adams)
Subject: Re: Temperature Control Cross-roads

"LANCE HARBISON" <harbison65 at verizon.net>

> I am in the midst of building a 2 ft X 2 ft X 5-1/2 ft
> tall fermentation chamber for my 20 gallon conical.  I
> am going to mount a 6000 BTU AC unit for cooling.
> This unit only has a 60F lowest setpoint.  I was also
> planning to submerge the controlling thermocouple into
> the wort, but am now having doubts that the AC will be
> able to effectively keep 20 gallons cool, especially in
> light of the exothermic reaction of fermentation.
>
> A couple options are going through my mind:  1) mount 
> the TC on the OD of the fermenter on the side opposite 
> the AC; 2) mount a small lightbulb in front of the AC 
> to keep it's internal temperature warmer than 60F; 3) 
> install a small fan to circulate the cooled air; and 
> 4) submerse a 1/2" coil into the fermenter and circulate
> ice water through it with the pump and AC being 
> controlled simultaneously.

I am having some conceptual problems with your project,
the most significant of which is that while the 60F (~16C)
low-end setting on the AC unit may be adequate for a 68F
(20C) fermentation, but not if you want the temperature 
much lower than that.  Depending on the ambient temperature
of the room, the AC unit may be running too often even at 68F.

I have a chest freezer with a controller attached and can
set the temperature from below freezing to room temperature.
If I wanted to take on your project, I would look for a 
stand-up freezer that would accommodate the fermenter and 
attach a controller to it with the thermocouple in the wort.

For an excellent example of a fermentation chiller, see 
http://home.swbell.net/bufkin/cold_storage_box.htm

Dick


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 08:17:37 +0000
From: mobrien315221mi at comcast.net
Subject: What makes the redest Red Beer?

Looking for suggestions to make the reddest, all grain, Red Beer.

Thanks

- --
Mike O'Brien
pico-Brewing Systems
734-637-2532


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 03:31:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kevin Mueller <kmmuellr at yahoo.com>
Subject: Wine?

My Romanian neighbor comes over last night asking me for help.  
Seems that he was making wine, and had more juice than would fit in his
demi-jon, and would I have a glass jar that he could put the rest in.
Sure, I've got a 5 gal carboy.

So I get it from the basement, throw some idophor in it and swish it
around as I'm walking over to his garage.

He fills up the carboy as he tells me how he makes his wine.
He got some red, California wine grapes crushed somewhere near Detroit
(wasn't to specific) on Sunday, and had the must in buckets until last
night (Wednesday) when he put them in the demi-jon and my carboy.  

The must in the demi-jon is fermenting like crazy (natural, no added
yeast), there are fruit flies flying around (not swarming, but 
definately enough to be noticed, and they were definately in the buckets).

So, anyone care to venture what I might get from the 3 gal or so
that I have in my carboy (that he gave me) or in his demi-jon?  

Thanks!
Kevin
Plymouth, MI


      


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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 12:27:48 +0000
From: mobrien315221mi at comcast.net
Subject: Temperature Control Cross-roads 

Lance
Here is a company that sells the controller that you need:

http://www.storeitcold.com/index.php

For what you are doing it's a bit pricey. 
But there is a lot of information, on the web site -
especially the FAQs and Testimonials.

A few key points:
 - Make sure that your space is well insulated  (4" foam) - including the floor.
 - No air leaks.
 - Make sure that the ac unit will restart it's self when the power goes out. 
 - They recommend several models of ac units that have plastic thermometer 
probes.
 - This unit has a heater that fakes out the ac thermostat so the unit runs all 
of the time.
 - They have (2) temperature controllers one monitoring the room temp - turning 
the compressor on and off to maintain the temp 
 - One monitoring the frost level of the evaporator coil - turning the 
compressor off to keep the coil from frosting over.

So by time you buy (2) temperature controller, a timer, a heater and put it all 
into a neat package - maybe $300 isn't a lot of money for something that is 
easy to install and has a proven track record.
 
- --
Mike O'Brien
pico-Brewing Systems
734-637-2532



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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 07:51:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: "David J. Kudrav" <dkudrav at hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: Temperature Control Cross-roads

Quoting Request Address Only - No Articles <homebrew-request at hbd.org>:

> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 20:40:53 -0500
> From: "LANCE HARBISON" <harbison65 at verizon.net>
> Subject: Temperature Control Cross-roads
>
> I am in the midst of building a 2 ft X 2 ft X 5-1/2 ft tall
> fermentation chamber for my 20 gallon conical.  I am going to mount
> a 6000 BTU AC unit for cooling.  This unit only has a 60F lowest
> setpoint.  I was also planning to submerge the controlling thermocouple
> into the wort, but am now having doubts that the AC will be able to
> effectively keep 20 gallons cool, especially in light of the exothermic
> reaction of fermentation.  A couple options are going through my mind:
> 1) mount the TC on the OD of the fermenter on the side opposite the AC;
> 2) mount a small lightbulb in front of the AC to keep it's internal
> temperature warmer than 60F; 3) install a small fan to circulate the
> cooled air; and 4) submerse a 1/2" coil into the fermenter and
> circulate ice water through it with the pump and AC being controlled
> simultaneously.
>
> Lance Harbison
> Pittsburgh

Lance, 6000 BTU's should be more than enough cooling for such a small space.

The manufacturer's limit the lowest temperature setting to 60F so that the A/C
does not freeze up before it can cool off a normal sized room--since this area
is much smaller, it will take much less time to cool, so you shouldn't have to
worry as much about freezing.

What you need to do is open up the A/C and remove the existing control
circuitry and replace it with a digital process controller, or hardwire it to
always cool (always on) then put a thermostat on the plug (similar to the way
many people convert chest freezers to kegerators)(an analog controller).

However, process controllers may be a better option--they generally will have
either a setable hysteresis loop or one that is much tighter/smaller than one
of the plug-cord-thermostat units will; that is, you will get +/-1 degree or
+/-2 degrees from a process controller rather than +/-5 or +/-10 degrees from
the other type of unit.

Pics of what I'm talking about:

Analog type controller:  http://news.thomasnet.com/images/large/482/482425.jpg

Digital Process Controller:
http://news.thomasnet.com/images/large/544/544923.jpg

A small fan inside the chamber to keep the air moving will prevent isotherms
and hopefully also assist in preventing the A/C from freezing up.  Also, the
higher you can mount the A/C, the better (or you can duct the cold air output
to the top of your chamber if the A/C is not mounted to/in the chamber).

We used to re-wire large A/Cs with process controllers all the time; we
generally used Omega Engineering units because they were easy for us to get--
but other places sell the same thing cheaper, or you can find them used on e-
bay for even less.  (Omega doesn't make anything, they just resell it; plenty
of places make them).

(Note:  Some process controllers will be directly able to switch 120v AC
[Alternating Current] at up to 15 or more Amps--read the unit's instructions
carefully--while other process controllers may require you to buy and wire up
a solid state relay for the high-current the Air Conditioner will draw.  Find
out how much current your Air Conditioner will pull, and make sure the
solution you choose can handle at least that much current).

I wouldn't worry about putting the probe (thermocouple) into the wort; just
leave it in the middle of the chamber (height wise) and not directly in the
path of blowing air, but not shielded from blowing air either (or if it's all
blowing in the chamber, not directly in the path of the cold air outlet).
While the wort may be slightly warmer than the air, you can simply adjust the
controller a degree or two colder.

I wish I had some pics of our rigged up A/C units from work to show you how
the process controllers were hooked up, but alas, I do not.

 -Dave Kudrav




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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 10:23:46 -0400
From: "Dennis Lewis" <dblewis at dblewis.com>
Subject: Re: Temperature Control Cross-roads

> From: "LANCE HARBISON" <harbison65 at verizon.net>
> Subject: Temperature Control Cross-roads
>
> I am in the midst of building a 2 ft X 2 ft X 5-1/2 ft tall fermentation
> chamber for my 20 gallon conical.  I am going to mount a 6000 BTU AC unit
> for cooling.  This unit only has a 60F lowest setpoint.  I was also

I had a window AC unit that I had rigged up for a cool room. I took
the control panel of the unit apart and disconnected the thermostat so
that it just ran 24-7. It was actually pretty simple--all I had to do
was unplug the thermostat and jumper the plug (no permanent rewiring).
I used a Hunter Airstat (remember those?) to control the temp in the
cool room and dumped heat into the rest of the basement. I actually
cooled a 6x10x9 room with it to 45F with it. It would freeze up
periodically, but with such a small coolbox, I think you wouldn't have
that problem.

I would put the temp probe in the wort though--you could use a
thermowell so that it's sanitary. You can make one with a weldless
fitting and a small piece of copper tubing that is sealed on the end.

I also thought your idea of running a coil with food-grade gycol in it
is a good one. I've thought about using a submersible pump in a 5 gal
bucket of glycol sitting in the chest freezer. Set the freezer temp to
30F and let the thermostat control the pump. It'd probably be a little
messy, but you'd be able to get the temps down in a hurry.

Good luck!

Dennis Lewis
Warren, OH


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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 07:34:31 -0700
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Temperature Control Cross-roads

LANCE HARBISON is at a Temperature Control Cross-roads

"I am in the midst of building a 2 ft X 2 ft X 5-1/2 ft tall fermentation
chamber for my 20 gallon conical.  I am going to mount a 6000 BTU AC unit
for cooling.  This unit only has a 60F lowest setpoint.  I was also
planning to submerge the controlling thermocouple into the wort, but am now
having doubts that the AC will be able to effectively keep 20 gallons cool,
especially in light of the exothermic reaction of fermentation.  A couple
options are going through my mind:  1) mount the TC on the OD of the
fermenter on the side opposite the AC; 2) mount a small lightbulb in front
of the AC to keep it's internal temperature warmer than 60F; 3) install a
small fan to circulate the cooled air; and 4) submerse a 1/2" coil into the
fermenter and circulate ice water through it with the pump and AC being
controlled simultaneously."


The problem with window-unit air conditioners is that they will easily ice
up if you try to run them too cold.  Some have a frost sensor built in, but
either way, their thermostat isn't built for the job.  But I recently ran
across a very clever device gets around the problems of using window-unit
A/C as a chiller for a walk-in cooler.

http://www.storeitcold.com/index.php

It works by placing a very low wattage heater against the A/C temperature
sensor, and a frost sensor directly in the evaporator coils.  It's own
temperature sensor is placed in the cooled area, just like you'd do if you
used a refrigerator with an external temperature controller.  When it's
T-stat decides it needs to cool things down, it turns on the heat to the A/C
sensor heater, making the A/C think things are much hotter than they are,
which causes it to begin cooling.  Likewise when the setpoint is reached, it
shuts off the heat to the A/C sensor, which quickly cools off to way below
its own setpoint of 60 or so, shutting it off.  The frost sensor shuts off
the A/C as well, when the coils start to ice up. 

What I really love about this design is that the thermostat inside doesn't
have to switch on the A/C unit itself; it just turns on a very low wattage
heater, so it doesn't need a heavy-duty relay.  Modern A/C units can't be
turned on and off at the power cord like a refrigerator can, because they
have electronic T-stats that reset to "off" on a power interruption.

As far as where to place the temperature sensor, if you put it in or on the
conical itself, you'll find the inside air temperature will go as low as the
A/C is capable, and it will likely ice up.  The lag time between the cooling
of the air and the cooling of the beer is too long.  You're better off to
set the air temperature to a value that gives you your target internal
temperature, and raise the air temp as fermentation slows.  

If you want to rigidly control the temp inside the conical, you're better
off using a glycol chiller.  They make these very cheaply for use with soda
fountains.  Mine is pretty big, and cost me less than $20 at a flea market,
but you can buy them commercially from surplus outlets fairly reasonably.
In fact, the Surplus Center has a small one for $20:

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2008092509191344&item=1-1302&catna
me=electric

It's pretty small (200 BTU), but it even comes with a solenoid and pump!
This way you chill propylene glycol which is a food-grade antifreeze (not
water, it will freeze) in an insulated chamber.  You run your circ pump on a
thermostat.  You either use a cooling jacket around the conical (if it's
metal), or an immersion coil.  I have a nice plastic cooling jacket that we
got when my son had ACL surgery, which was used by a tiny glycol chiller too
keep his knee cool (without using ice pack).  These are disposable, so you
might be able to find one locally.  Or a cooling coil built from small
diameter stainless or copper tubing.  Circulating glycol in this way will
keep the internal temperature set to whatever you want, without excessive
run time on the refrigeration compressor.  Basically it's a miniature
version of how the "big boys" do it.

Regards,
Mike Sharp

Chillin' in Kent, WA
[1891.3, 294deg] AR






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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:11:03 -0600
From: "Jason Gazeley" <jason.gazeley at gmail.com>
Subject: R.O. mashing

I am currently brewing with R.O. water.
I do all of my mineral additions in the
boil kettle. My mash ph is always perfect.
Is there any reason not to mash with R.O.
water?

Cheers,

Jason


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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:11:39 -0600
From: "Jason Gazeley" <jason.gazeley at gmail.com>
Subject: R.O. mashing

I am currently brewing with R.O. water.
I do all of my mineral additions in the
boil kettle. My mash ph is always perfect.
Is there any reason not to mash with R.O.
water?

Cheers,

Jason


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