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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  RE: What makes the redest Red Beer? ("David Houseman")
  Re: What makes the redest Red Beer? (#5421) ("Gordon Strong")
  Re: R.O. mashing (Kai Troester)
  Wine? (Glyn and Mary)
  thermals & RO water mash ("steve.alexander")
  Hoppy Halloween Challenge ("Susan Ruud")
  Beer Traveling to Orlando & Budapest (thepfhb)


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Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 08:03:00 -0400
From: "David Houseman" <david.houseman at verizon.net>
Subject: RE: What makes the redest Red Beer?

Mike,

The darker the roast grain/malt, the redder the hue of the resulting color. 
So using roasted barley or similar grain will give you a redder hue than 
using, say crystal 60, even when the two result beers have the same SRM oL. 
When I make a red ale, I use the darkest roasted barley and add a few 
ounces, enough to give the color that ProMash calculates, knowing it will be 
very red hue, but below the flavor threshold for roasted barley in that 
beer.

David Houseman



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Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 08:20:25 -0400
From: "Gordon Strong" <strongg at speakeasy.net>
Subject: Re: What makes the redest Red Beer? (#5421)

> Looking for suggestions to make the reddest, all grain, Red Beer.

You can't get red with any crystal malts.  You need to use black to get red. 
But it's easy to blow it.  You have to watch the color change, so steep some 
roasted barley or black malt (I tend to use roasted barley) in your strike 
water.  The water should be in the 150-170F range.  Stir lightly to mix the 
color as it steeps.  Remove it when it gets to the right color.

You can use crystal-type malts to adjust the depth of the color and add 
related yellows, oranges and browns, but I've never seen a crystal malt that 
really gives something red.

You could also do this in the mash tun or copper if you have a grant or some 
other way to recirculate and observe the color as it changes.  The grist of 
your beer will change the color of the strike water depending on what's in 
it.

You can use this technique to try to adjust the color as you go.  Basically, 
you can steep those grains at any time you have water in the right 
temperature range and a way to observe it.

Also assuming you mean to use only grain, and not any fruit or other 
additives.

It's hard to give an exact recipe that you could make with a traditional 
mash since the amount of red color you get is dependent on the type of grain 
you use and how much recirculation you get.  Contact time with hot water 
controls how much color comes out.  It's much easier to do if you can 
observe the exact change you want.

I'd start with an ounce of crushed roasted barley in a tight mesh bag and 
watch how it changes the color.  You could experiment with water on a 
smaller scale and see how it changes.  But you have to watch it.

Gordon 



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Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 10:56:18 -0400
From: Kai Troester <kai at braukaiser.com>
Subject: Re: R.O. mashing

> I am currently brewing with R.O. water.
> I do all of my mineral additions in the
> boil kettle. My mash ph is always perfect.
> Is there any reason not to mash with R.O.
> water?

Jason,

The only affect of the minerals, except to provide buffering for the  
pH and react with malt phosphates to lower the pH, on the mash that I  
know of is that calcium ions stabilize the alpha amylase. But in a  
series of mashing experiments that I did with various levels of  
calcium while trying to maintain the pH of the mash, I did not see a  
significant difference in efficiency. I have yet to evaluate the  
attenuation numbers.

But if you say that your pH is always perfect, are you brewing only  
one color range of beer. When using R.O. water with very dark beers,  
for example, you will still have to correct the pH of the mash with  
some carbonate additions.

Kai






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Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 11:05:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Glyn and Mary <graininfuser at yahoo.com>
Subject: Wine?

Red wine vinager..maybe good for cooking. 



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 14:27:25 -0400
From: "steve.alexander" <-s at roadrunner.com>
Subject: thermals & RO water mash

At my old house I had a temp-controlled wine cellar ~62-65F and I did some
ale fermentations there.  This may have been better than the ambient 
70+F temps
at the peak of summer but not by much I think.

The mistake in several posts is that they are estimating the AC capacity 
based
on air volumes (room size) but that calculation goes straight-out the window
since your tiny chamber is filled with fermenting wort, not air

Air has a heat capacity ~ 1 Joule-gram/K, and water is ~ 2 Joule-gram/K
Your 2ftx2ftx5.5ft chamber has a volume of ~623 liters. It holds ~780 grams
of air.  It takes about the same amount of cooling energy to cool your 
chamber
filled with air as it does to cool 390ml (13 fluid ounces) of wort.  So 
heating or
cooling a volume or water(wort) requires about 1600 times as much energy
as the same volume of air.    5 gal(~20L) of wort requires as much cooling
capacity as 1100 cu.ft of air (a modest bedroom size volume).  Your 20gal
fermenter requires the same cooling capacity as ~4500cf or a largish room
24ftx23ft by 8 ft.

What this means is that your AC cannot *change* the temp as fast as a naive
estimate you suggest.
- --
Another killer is that the fermentation generates a lot of heat.  Last 
Fall my
wine fermentation (in a sanke) ran about 15F above ambient (quite warm to
the touch) for several days !   Barleywines have similarly obvious 
heat-ups. 
If you search the archives you'll see calculations for the heat of
fermentation.

My quick take on heat of fermentation is this:

Anaerobic fermentation produces of a mol (180gm) of glucose produces
227kcal of energy and ~15kcal retained by yeast
((see http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/fst/faculty/acree/fs430/ \
lectures/thk29ferment.html ))
So it's 212kcal/180gm of fermentables or ~1180kcal/kg or 4675 BTU/kg.

If you have a 20L(~5gal) of wort at 12P attain 75% apparent attenuation
(~61% real atten) we have 1.5kg of sugar fermented producing 7000BTU.

Your 20L fermenter should contain abt 6kg of fermentables a "normal" grav
wort. producing ~28000 BTU.  ((Perhaps 50000 BTU for a barleywine
but who needs 20gal of barleywine?)).

It will take your 6000 BTU/hr AC unit ~5 hours to overcome the heat of
fermentation (and fermentation can take several days) so cooling capacity
does match is adequate for heat-of-fermentation.
- --

RATE of heat transfer can be a big problem.

The AC can maintain the air temp around, 60F, but the question is how
much heat does the fermenter transfer to the  air and what is the thermal
conductivity.  I don't think ambient air heat transfer will do the job very
well at 5 gallons and the problem gets  worse for larger volume
fermenters (surface area to heat ratio declines).  Air transfer of heat may
be inadequate for 20gal.  Fins or a fan can help the transfer rate
tremendously.

The thermal conductivity to air will require some guesswork and
calculation, or an experimental measure.  If you fill the fermenter with
hot or cold water in the chamber held at a constant air temp and measure
how fast the temp moves toward ambient  over time (it's an exponential
decay type curve) the we can calculate the heat transfer of your fermenter
to the air with a good accuracy. It's a good idea to use this test if you
intend to use air transfer for cooling long term.


- ----

RO water shouldn't be a problem in the mash, except than some
enzymes require cofactor ions.  I'd add a pinch of calcium-something
just to be safe wrt alpha-amylase.

 -S



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Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 13:59:03 -0500
From: "Susan Ruud" <susan.ruud at ndsu.edu>
Subject: Hoppy Halloween Challenge

Entries are being accepted for the Hoppy Halloween Challenge from now until
October 10th.  All BJCP categories are accepted plus our own theme category
for Halloween.  Details can be found at
http://www.prairiehomebrewers.org/hoppyhalloween.htm   

Prizes will be awarded for all first, 2nd and 3rd place winners.  There is a
separate Best of Show for Beer and for Mead and Cider.  Judging will occur
the week of October 19th thru the 25th with the majority of the judging on
the 24th and 25th.  

There is an awards banquet on Oct. 25th with speaker Doug Hoverson - Author
of "Land of Amber Waters"

Please watch our website for further information.

Cheers,
Susan Ruud
Competition Organizer




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Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 02:09:55 +0000
From: thepfhb at comcast.net
Subject: Beer Traveling to Orlando & Budapest

Hi Cyberworld,

Next up on my travel itinerary is Orlando and the House of House. I know 
i'll be hard pressed for any interesting beer at Disney, that is unless they 
have added San Deigo and Portland to the Land of Many Wonders... I will
 have a car, and the kids are staying in school.. Is there anything else 
for me to find besides alligators and tourists?

The next trip should be a little more eventful. My #1 fan (Mom) is going to 
Hungry next month and would like to do something besides visit my 
godmothers family. 
They are staying on the Pest side. Besides Anton Dreher's family brewery, 
where else can I send them? Last time all they found was Stella and PU.
Expectations are high since I guided the same 
group to U Fleku and Novometzsky Pivovar in Prague four years ago. Any 
help from my well traveled friends? Dr. Pivo? Anyone?


- --
Phil Wilcox
Poison Frog Home Brewer
Secretary - Prison City Brewers (Former Warden)
AABG, AHA, BA, BJCP, HBD, Etc., Et. al ... 


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