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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  re: Underaged beer at brewpubs (Dick Dunn)
  Re: Patriotic Duty, Homebrew Digest #562 (January 07, 1991) (ferguson ct 71078)
  LA H20 (Darryl Richman)
  LA H2O
  Re: Homebrew Digest #562 (January 07, 1991)  (dbreiden)
  Re:  "Real Ale" (Patrick Stirling)
  Care and feeding of pen-style Ph measuring devices (foster)
  Artificial carbonation (John Freeman)
  Rinsing bottles (John Freeman)
  False Positives (Martin A. Lodahl)
  Re: Keg pressure and carbonation (bob)
  methanol bs (florianb)
  Real Ale (Norm Hardy)


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Date: 6 Jan 91 21:50:39 MST (Sun)
From: ico.isc.com!rcd at raven.eklektix.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: re: Underaged beer at brewpubs

Chris Shenton <chris at asylum.gsfc.nasa.gov> writes...

> ...noah at cs.washington.edu (Rick Noah Zucker) said:
> 
> Rick> ... they do not age their beers very long by our standards.  He serves
> Rick> the lagers after four weeks, the light ales after one, and something
> Rick> like a porter after two.
...
> The idea sounds seductively appealing, but I think it's bull. Most -- if
> not all -- of the ten or so brewpubs I've been to have had beer that tasted
> young...

The matter of aging beer seems to come up once or twice a year in the HBD.
I've taken--and continue to take--the position that properly-made beer is
at its best as soon as possible after it's finished.  For lagers, naturally,
that doesn't mean a short lagering period is better; it means that they're
at their best right at the end of lagering.  For ales, younger is almost
always better.  As soon as an ale has finished fermenting, settled out, and
is carbonated, it should be ready to drink.  There should be no "off"
flavors.

I'll go a little further out on the limb and say that there is no such
thing as a "young" or "raw" taste for beer (unless you choose to equate
"young" and "fresh":-).  The tastes which make very young ales unpalatable,
or the effects which cause them to taste better with some age, are properly
called "faults" in brewing the beer.  There are a few mistakes which will
give a young ale a harsh taste, and which will age out...but that doesn't
mean the aging is necessary; it simply mitigates the mistakes.  (I should
know; I've made enough of the mistakes.:-)  A beer should taste just fine
(except for being a bit flat) at bottling time.

>...In nearby Baltimore, the stuff at Sissons tastes plain *raw*, with a
> watery bitterness typical of a brew that hasn't matured enough...

An unpleasant bitterness (as contrasted with the expected pleasant hop
bitterness) is generally the fault of extracted tannins, which results from
mishandling whole grain.  It will age out.
  ---
Dick Dunn    rcd at raven.eklektix.com   -or-   raven!rcd


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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 91 09:39:20 EST
From: ferguson at x102c.ess.harris.com (ferguson ct 71078)
Subject: Re: Patriotic Duty, Homebrew Digest #562 (January 07, 1991)


Al Taylor <S94TAYLO%USUHSB.BITNET at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> writes:

>Now I am noone's straightlaced stuffed-shirt, but I do know a little about
>Army regulations and the Saudi customs.  I would tell Cathy Young's friend
>to forget about setting up a still in The Sandbox.  A still itself is illegal
>anywhere, especially on a military reservation.  In a host country that
>absolutely prohibits the mere presence of alcohol, let alone production
>capability, the offense becomes significantly more serious.
>If her friend does build this still, and gets caught, he might be home much
>sooner than originally scheduled.

Saudi Arabia has two types of police, the regular police and the
"religious" police.  The latter enforce the religious customs such as
the ban on alcohol, the ban on pork products or images (people have
had their Porky-Pig comic books confiscated during Saudi airport
customs checks), and women's public attire (women who show too much
leg can expect to having their ankles swatted with sticks).  The
religious police can enter your house without a warrant if you are
suspected of religous crimes.  Also, in Saudi courts if you are a
foreigner you are automatically guilty (ask anyone who has ever been
in a traffic accident there).

On the other hand, Suadi stores sell all the paraphenalia needed to
make home-made wine.  They have large bottles of Welches grape juice
with special mouths that make in-bottle brewing easy.  They also sell
yeast.  Figure that out.

Chuck Ferguson             Harris Government Information Systems Division
(407) 984-6010             MS: W1/7742  PO Box 98000  Melbourne, FL 32902
Internet:                  ferguson at x102c.ess.harris.com
Usenet:                    uunet!x102a!x102c!ferguson

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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 91 06:47:47 -0800
From: darryl at mashtun.ivy.isc.com (Darryl Richman)
Subject: LA H20

Subject: LA H2O
You can get a free water report by calling up your supplier.  Be careful,
because, contrary to popular belief, Pasadena *is not* a part of LA, and
the water you get is different.  Understanding water can be difficult in
this land since the water is brought in from all over, and many sources
may be mixed.  Join the Maltose Falcons (or drop by the Shop 22836 Ventura
Blvd. #2, (818) 884-8586) to receive the newsletter and the Feb. issue will
have an article on the water in Los Angeles itself.  Good brewing,

		--Darryl Richman
		(editor, Brews & News)

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Date: Mon, 07 Jan 91 12:04:40 -0500
From: dbreiden at mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #562 (January 07, 1991) 

> Does anyone know a) what the FAA regulations are on transporting alcohol,
> in particular homebrew, which of course has no label or liquor stamp, and
> b) if the regs prohibit homebrew's transport, how one can circumvent these
> (short of bribery, as I am poor) restraint of relaxation.
> Please help!
> Al Taylor

I asked this question a while back and got a variety of responses--they can be 
summed up as follows:
	It is perfectly legal to transport the stuff.  You may have trouble
	carrying it on, but this too is legal if the stuff is sealed--I presume
	that opening it on a plane could be bad, tho'.  One story (Pete Soper I
	think) gives the moral that decent looking labels may help.  Of course,
	care should be taken in packing etc, but if you carry on you'll have 
	take it out & show the officials.  
I will take the plunge in early March and take some homebrew on a flight to
Oregon; if anything odd comes up--I'll share the experience.
On a related note, I've heard various rumors about moving liquor and/or beer
and wine over state lines being illegal in some areas.  Does anyone out there
have any real knowledge of this sort of thing?

- --Danny

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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 91 09:16:40 PST
From: pms at sfsun.West.Sun.COM (Patrick Stirling)
Subject: Re:  "Real Ale"

Marc San Soucie writes:

>there is basically no difference between garden-variety [...] American
>microbrew and garden-variety English Real Ale.

I assume that you mean no difference in the brewing techniques? I.e.
that no additives are used, and that the beer is not pasteurised or
filtered.  As a long standing fan of British 'real ale', I think it
tastes quite different to any microbrew or brewpub beer I had here in
the US! Apart from the expected differences of style that you find
between any two 'real' beers, British real ale has virtually no
carbonation (could you even pressurize a wooden cask? Actually metal
kegs are quite common for real ale too), and is served at "cellar"
temperature (i.e. warm by US standards!) either by a vacuum hand pump
or by gravity right from the keg. In contrast, all of the American
'real ales' I've had have been served the traditional US way: cold and
carbonated, using CO2 pressured taps. As an aside, IMHO a good test of
a beer is to let it warm up to room temp and see how it tastes then.
Sierra Nevada and Anchor beers improve this way, while Bud etc become
even less drinkable than when their taste is chilled out!

patrick

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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 91 09:43:32 PST
From: foster at rumor.enet.dec.com
Subject: Care and feeding of pen-style Ph measuring devices

I have one of those pen-like electonic Ph measuring devices. I have been using
it for about a year now and am basically very happy with it.

The docs that came with the meter mentioned that keeping the business end
wet (with de-ionised water) would prolong the devices life.

I have a few questions that I'd like some help with:

1. What if I dont keep it wet, by how much will the devices life be shortened ?.

2. What techniques do people suggest for keeping it wet between use, assuming
   I may not brew for a couple of months between uses ? (the protective cap
   is not a large enough reservoir and it dries out within days).

3. When using, do people just dip it into the mash, or extract liquid only from
   the tun and then dip into that ?.

4. The supplier of my unit sent me a note recently saying that the manufacturers
   information for callibration was incomplete, and that I should use 
   distilled water with a know buffer in it to render a Ph of 5.0. I dont 
   understand how callibrating against a known value of 5.0 is any better than 
   a known value of 7.0 (+- .1) - typical distilled water. Any ideas ?. 


   Hoppy new year to all..

    Stan.

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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 91 12:34:58 CST
From: jlf at poplar.cray.com (John Freeman)
Subject: Artificial carbonation

> 
> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 91 17:49:22 PST
> From: kjohnson at argon.berkeley.edu (Ken Johnson)
> Subject: keg pressure, carbonation
> 
> I recently filled two kegs with brew and decided to artificially carbonate
> instead of dealing with more yeast sediment.  I tried bubbling the CO2 from
> the bottom at 15-50 psi, and it still didn't carbonate after a three days.
> (My pressure guage may be off)  Two weeks later the brew is only slightly
> carbonated, yet I get a monstrous head in the glass.  My beer fridge isn't
> working right now, so everything is room temperature.
> Questions:
> 1.Does the beer have to be refridgerated to hold the carbonation.
> 2.Is there something about the C-kegs that gives a giant head upon dispensing
> 	robbing the beer of carbonation.
> 3.Has anyone had this problem before, and how did you fix it.
> 

I've artificially carbonated kegs of beer before by filling the keg
about half full of beer (4 gals in a quarter barrel), adding CO2 to
about 30 psi, and shaking the keg vigorously to get the CO2 to dissolve.
Then I'd repeat this, and relieve the pressure to about 10-15 psi.


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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 91 12:44:04 CST
From: jlf at poplar.cray.com (John Freeman)
Subject: Rinsing bottles

I gave a six pack of homebrew to a friend, and when I got the bottles
back, discovered he hadn't rinsed them.  So, I decided to take my
bottle brush after them.  After cleaning the first bottle, I noticed
it was much cleaner than other bottles that I had so dutifully rinsed. 
Upon closer examination, I realized that my bottles all had varying 
degrees of film on the inside.  So yesterday, I modified my bottle
brush, put it in the chuck of my drill press, and proceeded to
clean four cases of bottles using water, detergent and bleach.  
They look much better now.

How often will I have to do this?  Every time I bottle?  Every few
batches?  Every time I rinse?  Now that I'm aware of it, I don't
think I'll be happy unless I brush clean them every time.


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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 91 10:15:30 PST
From: Martin A. Lodahl <pbmoss!malodah at PacBell.COM>
Subject: False Positives

In HOMEBREW Digest #562, the appropriately-named James Brewer asked:

> After mashing for a long while we, the fairview brewing cartel, 
> perform a starch test on the mash. We find that when we add 
> iodine to the wort we obtain a negative result, indicating a 
> lack of starch. If we place the iodine on a grain and crush
> the grain a little, a positive result is obtained. Would one
> expect this?

Absolutely!  Husk material will respond to iodine in a manner very
similar to starch (especially if your color vision is as distorted
as mine), which quite often leads new grain brewers to conclude that
starch conversion is not complete, when in fact the problem is that
their grain is ground, rather than cracked!  Your test would
indicate to me that everything's just perfect.  Don't change your grind!

= Martin A. Lodahl    Pac*Bell Minicomputer Operations Support Staff =
= malodah at pbmoss.Pacbell.COM       Sacramento, CA       916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids, runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me!  8-)   =


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Date: Mon Jan  7 14:40:22 1991
From: semantic!bob at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Re: Keg pressure and carbonation

In HBD #562, Ken Johnson writes:


> I recently filled two kegs with brew and decided to artificially carbonate
> instead of dealing with more yeast sediment.  I tried bubbling the CO2 from
> the bottom at 15-50 psi, and it still didn't carbonate after a three days.
> ...

Here's how I do it:

1) Chill you beer as much as you can. (Obviously not below 32F)
2) Turn up your regulator to 30 PSI.
3) Lay your keg on its side.
4) Shake your keg 200 times. (Sort of rolling it back and forth)

You may need to shake it more times if you beer is warmer or your
shake is less vigorous.

The last time I did this I rolled it back and forth 400 times
in a nice relaxed manner with the beer chilled to about 40F.
It works great.  Nice tiny bubbles too.


> 1.Does the beer have to be refridgerated to hold the carbonation.
>

No, just make sure your kegs are sealed good.


> 2.Is there something about the C-kegs that gives a giant head upon dispensing
> 	robbing the beer of carbonation.
> 

No, But your dispensing pressure may be to high.  I dispense mine at 5 PSI,
and store at 10 PSI.  If your dispensing pressure is to high then the beer
will be squirted out with losts of vigor and cause alot of foaming and thus
loss of carbonation.  Also, before a serving session let free any excess 
pressure in the tank via the pressure release valve.


> Aaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrgggggghh!!
>

Relaaaaaaaaaaax!  Etc...


- -- Robert A. Gorman (Bob)        bob at rsi.com           Watertown MA US --
- -- Relational Semantics, Inc.    uunet!semantic!bob    +1 617 926 0979 --


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Date: Mon, 07 Jan 91 16:57:35 PST
From: florianb at chip.cna.tek.com
Subject: methanol bs

In yesterday's HBD comes a quote from the world's largest welfare system:

>      Eight American soldiers have been poisoned by home-brewed alcohol and
> hospitalized since Sunday, one in very serious condition, the U.S. military
> command said.
>    The soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division are the first known
> casualties of home-brewed liquor since U.S. forces were deployed in Saudi
> Arabia, a Moslem country that bans all alcohol.
>    Today's statement from the U.S. Central Command said the soldiers, who were
> not identified, suffered from methanol poisoning, which is a problem
> associated with faulty home-brewed alcoholic beverages.
>    Methanol poisoning, which can lead to blindness or death, was a serious
> problem during Prohibition in the 1920s.
> 

OK, here we go...

This is 1991, I live on the planet Earth, and Elvis is really dead.  It sounds
like a rough way to go, but methanol?

I just checked with a chemist buddy down at Bend Research.  Methanol is obtained
from pyrolysis of wood at extremely high temperature.  The temperature of
boiling water (alcohol) is insufficient to convert ethanol to methanol.
Brewer's yeast does not manufacture methanol.  I'm not a chemist, but I am
a physicist, and I'm inclined to take the chemist's word above that of the
military.

Sounds to me like typical shithead military propaganda to keep soldiers
from doing that which nature and boredom beckons to.

Oh, and hey:  methanol poisoning in the Prohibition years seems likely to
have come from the desperate and direct consumption of methanol-containing
fluids, not brewed at home.

And finally this note...if soldiers are going blind from something in
Saudi Arabia, it's, ah, well...

Florian "get real and talk beer" Bell


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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 91 21:07:27 PST
From: polstra!norm at uunet.UU.NET (Norm Hardy)
Subject: Real Ale

There is more to Real Ale than meets the tongue, so to speak....

To be an authentic Real Ale, it must be hand pumped from the (preferably)
wooden cask; i.e., no CO2.  The beer comes to the pub quite young and it is
up to the pub to monitor and serve the stuff when best suited.  Obviously,
the beer changes character as the cask is emptied.

There are a few places in Seattle which offer "Cask Conditioned" ale, that
which is served from the steel keg but hand pumped.  Believe me, there is a
big difference in mouth feel when the beer has its own natural carbonation,
albeit light, compared to a CO2 pumped beer.  Often it is much easier to
drink two such beers; they go down so easy!

Norm Hardy


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #563, 01/08/91
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