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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  More questions about Barley sources (Ultra Network Technologies)
  dishwashers for bottles (krweiss)
  Malt Extract (dbreiden)
  Please sign me up to the digest (SHERRILL_PAUL)
  Re: Underaged beer (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  What bottles? (RANDALL SCHRICKEL (NCE) x7661)
  New BrewPub (Rad Equipment)
  glass washing; cranberry beer (Chip Hitchcock)
  freshness of beer (Chip Hitchcock)
  What happened?! (b11!mspe5!guy)
  Add me to the mailing list (Ray Shapouri)
  flakes in my beer! (jonm)
  stirring wort and freezing yeast (mage!lou)
  Re: Homebrew Digest #567 (January 18, 1991) (Victor Escobedo)
  tastes like "Pete's Wicked Ale"? (Kurt Wiseman x2006)
  RE: Homebrew Digest #567 (January 18, 1991)  ("Dave Resch DTN:523-2780")


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


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Date: Fri, 18 Jan 91 9:28:05 CST
From: ultra1 at poplar.cray.com (Ultra Network Technologies)
Subject: More questions about Barley sources


First, many thanks for all of you that had info regarding my barley experi-
ments.  Now on to another question.

I believe my previous results were indeed related to feed grain versus
malting barley were correct.  From Kevin Vang's response I got the impression
that perhaps this feed grain might make an ok source to grow new grain that
might actually be of malting quality.  Is this correct?

I have also been getting the pre-requisite mail order planting guides that
come out this time of year and noticed that the Burgess catalog sells seed
quality barley.  Anybody got any ideas on what I might get if I plant some
of this?  Anybody got any ideas on how much to plant for a minimum of
5 gallons of beer?  I already ordered 2# and I hope to plant in a 6' square
area.

I know this may be lots of work but I just can't get past the notion of
trying to brew a beer entirely from scratch.  Maybe I have latent tendencies
to blow up my tv, move to the country, and find homebrew on my own!


- -- 
Jeff Miller                  ultra1 at cray.com (612) 333-7838  Ultra Office
Ultra Network Technologies   jmiller at ultra.com

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Date: Fri, 18 Jan 91 08:18:03 -0800
From: krweiss at ucdavis.edu
Subject: dishwashers for bottles

Algis Korzonas writes:

> >Oh yea, is using a dishwasher sufficient?
> 
> Some have a "sanitize" cycle -- I've never used one but some brewers
> say it works.  Cleaning out the bottles immediately after use is very
> important if you use a dishwasher.  One brewer had posted an article
> where he put some flower or something in a few test bottles to see
> if the dishwasher really cleaned them.  I don't recall his results,
> but every dishwasher is different, so you would have to try the test
> yourself anyway.
> 
> >What should be used as detergent if so?
> 
> DON'T use detergent.  A soap film of any kind will kill your head
> (well, your beer's head anyway).  In fact, when I go to bars, I
> insist they reuse my glass so that the first beer washes most of the
> soap film out and the rest of the beers have a much more stable head.


As I recall, the individual that tested a dishwasher's cleaning ability used 
ketchup as his test goo. The dishwasher worked well to remove the gunk.

I've been washing my bottles in the dishwasher for over a year now -- about 10 
or 12 batches. I just rinse the bottles as I empty them, and run them through 
with the rest of our dishes, detergent and all. Once or twice I tried sending 
the bottles through a second time, without detergent, right before bottling. I 
didn't see any difference in the head retention of the final product, so I 
conclude that at least my dishwasher rinses the detergent out very 
effectively. Dishwasher soap is formulated to rinse easily, so that makes some 
sense. For the truly curious, we use whatever dishwasher detergent is on sale, 
and we have a real fancy Kenmore dishwasher, with more buttons than a 747.

Ken Weiss
krweiss at ucdavis.edu


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Date: Fri, 18 Jan 91 11:41:50 -0500
From: dbreiden at mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Subject: Malt Extract

Ok, I'm relaxing and not worrying.  I think it's great fun to make variations
in recipes and then see what results.  But I would also like to try a couple
of the recipes in TCJOHB without making too many changes.  The local homebrew
supply shop (actually it's about 1/2 aisle in a local natural food co-op)
carries little variety in malt extract.  My question is: what major differences
exist in syrups?  If Papazian calls for hopped John Bull Dark in his recipe,
would I be making a big change by using hopped M&F Dark instead?
I know I can just try it and see, but I really want to try to brew a couple
of these recipes as accurately as possible.  So if any of you extract brewers
know of switches that should not be made, or maybe which syrups are the most
similar, I'd really appreciate that information.
Thanks,

- --Danny

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Date: 18 Jan 91 09:38:00 -0800
From: SHERRILL_PAUL at cts
Subject: Please sign me up to the digest



My current address is sherrill_paul at comm.tandem.com

thanks

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Date: Fri, 18 Jan 91 11:18:26 mst
From: hplabs!hp-lsd.cos.hp.com!ihlpl!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Re: Underaged beer

Chris Shenton writes:
>I was intrigued by the initial argument that the only reason to age beer
>was to cover up some defects in the beer -- made some sense. But then how
>does that justify the German lagering tradition?

Lagering is not the aging of completed beer.  Lagering is the FERMENTATION.
When the fermentation takes place at higher temperatures (60, 65, 70F...),
the yeast produce more by-products (besides CO2 and alcohol) such as
esters.  Conversely at lower temperatures (50, 45, 40F...), the yeast
produces less of these by-products.  You'll notice the difference between
lagers and ales is generally in the fruitiness of the ales.  Compare two
mass-produced beers such as Hacker-Pschorr Lager and Bass Ale.  Or if
you like your beer on the hoppy side, compare Samuel Adams Boston Lager
and Anchor Liberty Ale.  Getting back to underaged beer, I have to agree
that aging helps soften "mistakes" like excessive tannins.  Brewing
beer (I am told) consists of over 200 chemical reactions, many of which
continue well after the beer is bottled (if it is not pasteurized and
filtered) or kegged.  If you are ever in Chicago, stop by Goose Island
Brewpub.  I just got off the phone with their brewmaster (so I could
get my facts straight) and we discussed this very issue.  He claims
that 95% of his customers cannot identify an additional 1 or 2 weeks of
aging.  He agrees with the concept that, if the beer is properly made,
it does not need as much aging as if it: 1) was not mashed properly,
2) boiled long enough (to drive off DMS and other certain nasties), or
3) was made with bad water or crummy ingredients.  Now some facts.
Goose Island serves their ales after 14 days.  They like to wait 4 weeks
to serve their lagers, but during the busy season, it ends up being
23 days.  The two batches of dopplebock that they made this year were
both served only after 5 weeks.  He said they counteract the shortened
aging of lagers during the busy season by making their Specialty Beers
(not their regular four) ales.  This reduces demand for the lagers and
gives them more cooperage for lagering.  IMHO, Goose Island beers are
excellent!  I don't consider their "aging" times very long yet the
quality of their beers is apparent.  I wish that I could consistenly
ber beer as good as theirs.  (I'd like to add that I have no affiliation
with Goose Island Brewing other than being a satisfied customer.)

Oh, yes.  One more interesting bit of data.  Goose Island's brewmaster
mentioned a "green apple" flavor that he claims you can taste when
the beer is not aged enough.  I have yet to taste such a flavor, maybe
it is dependent on his yeast (they do their own culturing).  Maybe
some of you have tasted this kind of flavor in a young beer that
aged out.

Al.


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Date: Fri, 18 Jan 91 13:23:03 -0500
From: randy at aplcomm.jhuapl.edu (RANDALL SCHRICKEL (NCE) x7661)
Subject: What bottles?

I'm getting ready to make my first batch of home-brew, all I need is bottles
to put it in. I know that the returnable type longnecks (Bud & Coors) are
usable, but they're hard to find (and besides, why torture myself emptying them
just to get to the good stuff :-) So, how can I tell if a bottle is OK to be
used for re-bottling via home-brew? I've heard that I could get bottles from a
bar, but I'd prefer not to (don't want to deal with cleaning who knows what).
Thanx in advance.

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Date: 18 Jan 90 11:05:48
From: Rad Equipment <Rad_Equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: New BrewPub

REGARDING                New BrewPub
To those of you who are within driving distance of Eugene (OR), there is a new
brewpub about to open there.  The Steelhead Brewery and Cafe, 199 E.5th Ave.
(503) 686-BREW,  is having their Grand Opening on Tuesday, Jan. 22nd.  Stop by
and say "hello" to the brewmaster, Teri Fahrendorf.  Teri moved up from the San
Francisco Bay Area to Eugene last September to assist with the start up of the
pub.  She had been the brewer at Triple Rock in Berkeley.  From the
conversations I have had with Teri, it sounds like the owners have gone all out
to start this venture, investing some $700,000.00.  If any of you do visit the
place, please post your impressions here for the rest of us to enjoy.  Oh yes,
if you see Teri, tell her "hello" from me too!

Russ Wigglesworth  <Rad Equipment at RadMac1.ucsf.edu>



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Date: Fri, 18 Jan 91 12:31:52 EST
From: cjh at vallance.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: glass washing; cranberry beer

> From: Pete Soper <soper at maxzilla.encore.com>
...
> for a couple hours and then turn the oven off, letting it cool for 24 hours 
> prior to bottling; I believe that trying to "force" the cooling of the
> bottles would be very risky.

I expect that this, rather than ramping up the sterilizing temperature, is the
key. All of the Swedish glass-blowing plants I visited last summer had a
"lehr"---an annealing oven-with-conveyor-belt in which the glass was cooled
from ~500 (C? F?) to around room temperature over ~24 hours. Glass is probably
not quite as subject to cooling stresses as stone (since it's a supercooled
fluid rather than a rigid crystal) but many varieties will shatter outright
if cooled too quickly (e.g., oven-hot glass dumped in cold water), so it
wouldn't be surprising to find weaknesses in any type that's been thermally
mistreated.

> From: <S94TAYLO%USUHSB.BITNET at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
...
>		If you all are nice, I'll tell you my recipe for
> Cranberry Beer (actually, I'll post it anyway soon).  Pucker up!

The people at Sam Adams's Boston brewery (they definitely still have some of
their brewing farmed elsewhere) recently produced a "cranberry lambic"; I
wouldn't swear it's worth a trip up from NYC, but it's definitely
interesting; you can find it on tap at the Sunset if you come to Boston....

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Date: Fri, 18 Jan 91 12:41:16 EST
From: cjh at vallance.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: freshness of beer

wrt Chris Shenton, Andy Wilcox, et al.):
 The attitude that all beers should be just right just after carbonation is
questionable. At the very least, consider barley "wines" in relation to grape
wines; almost no fermented grape juice is good immediately, and some
varieties continue to improve for not just years but decades. Recent reviews
have noted the 1988 Thomas Hardy Dorset Ale and this year's holiday ale from
Geary as being particularly likely to improve with age.
   Freshness can be an asset, but there are some things which just can't be
ready immediately. Remember, we're not laboratory chemists, working with
exact quantities of exactly known substances; we mash or stew grains, boil
hops (and sometimes spices), and wait for the results to finish mixing and
reacting with each other, sometimes for days, sometimes for years. The flavor
profile of a good beer is probably complex enough that reproducing it from
pure chemicals wouldn't be worth the effort even if it were possible.
   My best personal example of ingredients "marrying" over time was a batch of
Papazian's Deep Sleep Stout, which has lots of crystal and black malts and
roasted barley. For several weeks after bottling, a mouthful of this stuff
would go sweet-sharp-sweet-sharp.... It finally homogenized, and I'm still
not sure the raw form wasn't more interesting (it was certainly novel),
although the mature form confirmed my belief that Papazian has entirely too
much affection for black malt. (I wonder whether he likes single-malt Scotch,
and if so whether he's one of those masochists who think Laphroig is a pale
shadow of a properly smoky whiskey....)
   Some commercial types (e.g., Jim Koch) have started making a big thing
about freshness. It's possible that the light lagers they mostly deal with
are so delicate (especially if left on a shelf at temperatures up to 80F,
instead of a cellar where they belong) that aging beyond the lagering
actively hurts the beer, but for heartier beers I would expect this generally
isn't so. My \personal/ tastes mostly exclude lagers---I like dark beers and
strong bitters (and fruit juices rather than light lagers if I'm so thirsty I
want to gulp quarts)---but I won't get into an argument about which is
better, just about what conditions are better for the beers.

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Date: Fri, 18 Jan 91 12:09:03 CST
From: ingr!b11!mspe5!guy at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: What happened?!

    O.K., I waited through the holidays for the Homebrew Digest to come back
on line.  It is now January 18th and I still haven't received a digest since
before Christmas.  Technical problems?  Was I removed from the list?  I have a
batch of Irish Sweet Stout in the fermenter but I still miss my Digest!!

- -- 
============================================================================
 Guy D. McConnell                   |                     | "I'd like to be
 Intergraph Corp. Huntsville, AL.   | Opinions expressed  | under the sea
 Mass Storage Peripheral Evaluation | are mine and do not | In an octopus'
 Tape Products                      | necessarily reflect | garden in the
 uunet!ingr!b11!mspe5!guy           | Intergraph's.       | shade..."
 (205)730-6289   FAX (205)730-6011  |                     | --The Beatles--
============================================================================


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Date: Fri, 18 Jan 91 11:33:10 -0800
From: ray at lccsd.sd.locus.com (Ray Shapouri)
Subject: Add me to the mailing list


Please add me to the mailing list.

thanx.

- -----
 ___   ___ 
(  ,) / __)  Ray Shapouri (ray at locus.com)
 )  \ \__ \  !ucsd!lccsd!ray
(_)\_)(___/  Locus Computing Corporation * San Diego * (619) 587-0511

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Date: Fri Jan 18 09:58:33 1991
From: microsoft!jonm at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: flakes in my beer!

I have a question about a strange beer occurrence:

Our eleventh batch of beer is a dark ale (brewed from extract with
some crystal malt) which has been in bottles for a week.  There is
some strange foam around the surface of the beer in the bottles,
and little flakes floating on the top.

When I pour a bottle into a mug, the flakes float on the surface of
the beer in the mug.  They are not very solid and dissipate quickly
when touched.  The beer tastes OK and is reasonably carbonated, given
the brief conditioning.

Is this a bacterial infection?  Will it go away with longer
conditioning, or should we drink all the beer quick before it gets worse?
Should we take Papazian seriously and stop cracking the specialty grains
in the same room as we brew?  (He says the dust has lots of bacteria.)
Any suggestions would be appreciated!

Not worrying, just trying to learn something ...

	Jonathan


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Date: 	Fri, 18 Jan 91 14:42:25 EST
From: counsel at AcadiaU.CA (Counselling Centre - Acadia University)

Pleasew add me to this list.
Terry Lane
Bitnet: counsel at acadia.ca

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Date: Fri, 18 Jan 91 15:05:52 MST
From: hplabs!mage!lou
Subject: stirring wort and freezing yeast

In HBD 567 Bob Gorman writes:

=In HBD 566, Mike Meyer writes:

=> I've had this same problem with measuring OG when using a closed primary. 
=> There seems to be a lot of stratification between the cold water you put
=> in the primary to prevent thermal shock, and the hot or warm wort, and
=> it is very difficult to mix the layers once you are in the carboy, as
=> you can't fit a spoon in to stir, and there isn't enough headroom to 
=> effectively shake.

=Here is an easy solution to your problems:

=Take a sterile turkey baster, stick it in the hole of your
=carboy, suck up some beer, and then squirt it back in with some
=vigor, then repeat many times.  This will accomplish several
=things: 1) It will mix up your different 'layers' of beer; 2) It
=will create an even temperature through out the carboy; 3) It will
=aerate your beer; 4) It will allow you to easily extract some beer
=for your hydrometer readings; 5) It will allow you to mix in your
=yeast rather then letting it all settle on the bottom.

=This is what I do, It works great!  But remember to leave enough
=head space for the foam you produce, otherwise it oozes over the
=sides.  My baster is a cheap one and squirts a little beer out of
=the sides every time I squeeze it.  So this is the messiest part
=of my brewing processes, but it gives me an excuse to wash the
=kitchen floor. (Albeit with beer :-)

I didn't respond to this the first time because I thought someone else would
and I didn't want to be redundant.

Stirring your wort is EASY!  I use a long-handleld plastic spoon that I
originally purchased from a local homebrew store for stirring during the boil
(I now use a large stainless spoon).  I sanitize it and insert it into the neck
of the carboy upside down and stir.  I usually don't siphon off the trub; with
good hot and cold breaks, I sometimes get very visible strata developing in the
carboy that eventually settle out.  From watching the effect of stirring on
these layers, I can tell that stirring in this manner does a very effective job
of mixing the wort.

I like the spoon because it is essentially a solid rod of food grade plastic.
I sometimes stir using my hard plastic siphoning cane but it is not as stiff as
the spoon handle.

*****************

On a different topic, yeast seems to be hardier than most people give it credit
for.

On 12/4 I brewed a smoked beer (O.G 1.052) and stuck it in the fridge
(ostensibly 40F) to ferment.  On 12/17 I left town to visit my parents over the
holidays.  The fridge is in the garage and shortly after I left the outside
temp went to -20F and stayed for a while.  When I returned on 12/31, this carboy
was frozen solid (another batch which was further along was not frozen when I
returned although it may have frozen and thawed during this period).  I moved
this to an area of 60F where it thawed after two days and resumed fermenting.

I have not bottled this yet because of an injured hand so I can't report on how
it tastes.  I've inadvertently frozen commericial beers in the past and it will
ruin the taste (such as it is).  However, the yeast (Whitbread lager) seems to
have survived the freezing.

Louis Clark
reply to: mage!lou at ncar.ucar.edu


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Date: Fri, 18 Jan 91 15:21:53 PST
From: Victor Escobedo <victor at sdd.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #567 (January 18, 1991)

please remove my name from the distribution list.

thanks

victor at sdd.hp.com

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Date: Fri, 18 Jan 91 16:42 PST
From: kwiseman at indetech.com (Kurt Wiseman x2006)
Subject: tastes like "Pete's Wicked Ale"?

Folks,
	I brewed beer back in my college days and have just recently revived
this wonderful pastime.  I'm looking for any advice on making a Pete's Wicked
Ale taste-alike.  Suggestions, warnings, etc.?
Thanks,
Kurt
 


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Date: Sun, 20 Jan 91 17:32:08 PST
From: "Dave Resch DTN:523-2780" <resch at cookie.enet.dec.com>
Subject: RE: Homebrew Digest #567 (January 18, 1991) 

>
>I am in the secondary fermenter now.  All looks good.  All is
>right.
> 
>Justin
>Brewer and Patriot

Get out of there this instant! You're really increasing your chances for
infection ;)

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Dave

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #568, 01/21/91
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