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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re:  dishwashers for bottles (John DeCarlo)
  Re: What bottles? (John DeCarlo)
  RE: Homebrew Digest #569 (January 22, 1991)  ("Dave Resch DTN:523-2780")
  Re: Bad Batch (Chris Shenton)
  re:freshness of beer (durbin)
  U.S. Open Homebrew Competition Announcement (BAUGHMANKR)
  The Wholesale Homebrew Club (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Re: Underaged beer (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Re: Bad Batch (Steve Dempsey)
  re: Sterilizing bottles in the oven (Tom Buskey)
  Samuel Smith (Michael J. McCaughey)
  German Grain (Norm Hardy)
  Carbonation in ruh beer (Brian Capouch)
  Re: More questions about Barley sources (Brian Capouch)
  RE:  European Carboys (MIKE FERTSCH)
  Lager Fermentation Control (Norm Hardy)
  Yeast attenuation (ardent!uunet!inland.com!pals)


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Date: Tuesday, 22 Jan 1991 08:19:10 EST
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re:  dishwashers for bottles

>From: krweiss at ucdavis.edu

>> >What should be used as detergent if so?
>>
>> DON'T use detergent.  A soap film of any kind will kill your
>> head (well, your beer's head anyway).  In fact, when I go to
>> bars, I insist they reuse my glass so that the first beer
>> washes most of the soap film out and the rest of the beers
>> have a much more stable head.

>with the rest of our dishes, detergent and all. Once or twice I
>tried sending the bottles through a second time, without
>detergent, right before bottling.  I didn't see any difference
>in the head retention of the final product, so I conclude that
>at least my dishwasher rinses the detergent out very
>effectively.  Dishwasher soap is formulated to rinse easily, so
>that makes some sense.  For the truly curious, we use whatever
>dishwasher detergent is on sale, and we have a real fancy
>Kenmore dishwasher, with more buttons than a 747.

If I remember Miller correctly, the main concern is *soap*, not
*detergent*.  Something tells me that the phrase "soap film" is
not called "detergent film" for a reason.

Specifically, Miller says not to use a "rinsing agent" (or
something similar that removes spots or somesuch) precisely
because it leaves a film.

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
Usenet:    at ... at !uunet!hadron!blkcat!109!131!John_Decarlo
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Tuesday, 22 Jan 1991 08:20:27 EST
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re: What bottles?

>From: randy at aplcomm.jhuapl.edu (RANDALL SCHRICKEL (NCE) x7661)

>I'm getting ready to make my first batch of home-brew, all I
>need is bottles to put it in.  I know that the returnable type
>longnecks (Bud & Coors) are usable, but they're hard to find
>(and besides, why torture myself emptying them just to get to
>the good stuff :-) So, how can I tell if a bottle is OK to be
>used for re-bottling via home-brew?  I've heard that I could get
>bottles from a bar, but I'd prefer not to (don't want to deal
>with cleaning who knows what).  Thanx in advance.

As far as I know, most of us *can't* tell.  I avoid the bottles
with twist-off caps, but others say they use them successfully.

1) Ask your friends if they drink the stuff like Lone Star or Bud
Dry.  Then ask them to save the bottles (and the case
they came in--very handy for storing the bottles of your
homebrew in).

2) Buy yourself a couple of cases of Samuel Adams and reuse those
bottles.

3) I reuse all kinds of bottles, including the Anchor
Brewing small, roundish bottles.  Plus, IBC Root Beer bottles
work nicely.  If you want to get strange :-), use one or two
plastic soda bottles (1 or 2 liter) to save on the number of 12
ounce bottles you need.

4) My favorites are the ones with the resealable ceramic-top
bottles (Grolsch-style).  No use of a bottle capper needed.

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
Usenet:    at ... at !uunet!hadron!blkcat!109!131!John_Decarlo
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 91 06:54:34 PST
From: "Dave Resch DTN:523-2780" <resch at cookie.enet.dec.com>
Subject: RE: Homebrew Digest #569 (January 22, 1991) 

>from: Steve Anthony <steveo at Think.COM>
>Subject: Bad Batch
 
Steve,

I have had a couple of batches go "bad" where they acted identically to yours, 
i.e., only the top couple of inches cleared in each bottle and they tended to 
gush when opened.  In my case I am 99 percent sure that it was a lactobacillus 
infection.  I believe that this is the most common type of infection that 
homebrewers experience.

I am, however, a little puzzled by what you describe as an extremely bitter taste
in the beer.  Lactobacillus imparts a distinctively sour taste to the beer and
this is what I experienced... maybe someone else can explain a bitter taste?

I think it would definitely be wise to boil the gyle before krausening.

Dave

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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 91 11:06:15 EST
From: Chris Shenton <chris at asylum.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Bad Batch

>>>>> On Mon, 21 Jan 91 09:35:53 EST, Steve Anthony <steveo at Think.COM> said:

Steve> ... krausening method of priming. I sanitize a 1g glass jug and rack
Steve> about 1/2g of unpitched wort to it. This gets stoppered and put in
Steve> the fridge.  When it's bottling time, I add the appropriate amount
Steve> of gyle to my bottling bucket (note, right out of the 1g jug.
Steve> Perhaps I should boil this to pasturize?) and add the fermented
Steve> wort. Bottle it up and wait.

This is what we do. Works very well. We don't boil it before adding -- I
figure that I've been pretty clean in my procedure, and besides, the beer
is alcoholic now.


Steve> The beer was *very* overcarbonated. 

I doubt you've got an infection -- if you've been careful. I think you're
using too much saved wort for priming. We use -- typically -- a bit less
than 1.5 Liters, but it all depends on the OG of the saved wort. Check
Noonan for a table of carbonation levels versus amount of saved wort at a
specific gravity.


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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 91 11:03:46 EST
From: durbin%cuavax.dnet at netcon.cua.edu
Subject: re:freshness of beer

In Germany all beers have a  date that they can be sold till, along
with the the alcohol content. I believe this is to be so they are still
fresh. From my experience with Weizen Beer bought in Germany or the same
brand and type bought in the states, there is difference in freshness. 
Some 1/2 liter bottles still have the date on them, usually 1 year or so
after that date. The dates on the bottles (the ones in Germany) seem to
me to be no more than 6 months from when it was bought. 
 I drank some Sam Adams in Germany ( wanted show my friends there are some 
good American beers). Looking at the bottle we noticed it was brewed and 
bottled in Germany. My roomate said he thought it didn't taste as good as
the stuff in the states but I didn't think it tasted much different. Of 
course we had already had a few brews. 

 - Phil Durbin 

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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 1991 11:40 EST
From: BAUGHMANKR at ALF.APPSTATE.EDU
Subject: U.S. Open Homebrew Competition Announcement

Following is a brochure just sent to all the hombrewing clubs
in the U.S.  FYI....

- -----------------------------------------------------------

           THE U.S. OPEN HOMEBRREW COMPETITION
           Hosted by the CArolina Brewmasters
 April 27 & 28, 1991  !!! Charlotte, NC !!! Don't miss it !!!

ENTRIES: due by April 12, fee is $5.00/ENTRY, 3 bottles/entry

Send entries to:   U.S. OPEN HOMEBREW COMPETITION
                   c/o Alternative Beverage
                       114-0 Freeland Lane
                       Charlotte, NC 28217

The Beer Judge Certification Test will be given in Charlotte 
on Fri. April 26.

In conjunction with BREWCO and ALTERNATIVE BEVERAGE, awards will be
presented for those beers which merit recognition (i.e., Best of
Category, Best of Show, etc.), as well as for the Club with the Most
Winning Beers, and the Novice Brewer Award.  (How about a Best
from the Net prize?!) Winning recipes will be published in Zymurgy.
Some free entries to the AHA National will be awarded.

This will be a great, beery time in Charlotte on April 27-28, 
and we hope many of you will be able to join us.

If you would be interested in judging (AHA & HWBTA
sanctioned competition), contact Kinney Baughman at (704) 963-
6949, our Competition Judge Director. (Netlanders, e-mail me 
at BAUGHMANKR at APPSTATE.BITNET)

Should you have any further questions, contact Doug MacKay at 
(704) 376-4916, out Competition Organizer, who can also help 
you with lodging information.

CLUBS: Please let us know how many entries your club will 
send, and how many of you can act as judges, preferably by 
March 27.

AHA categories will be used, however, the competition orga-
nizers reserve the right to combine categories if necessary.

SPRINGFEST '91 happens during our competition, which will 
allow our guests/judges from out of town to join with hundreds 
of thousands of people and artists from all over the country 
for a weekend of music and sunshine.

See you in Charlotte!!!!
- ----------------- end clip ----------------------------------

The American Brewmasters with Alternative Beverage have 
conducted three national competitions (The National
Homebrew Club Brew-off) as well as hosted the 1989 HWBTA 
national competition.  These guys are experienced at big 
competitions and this one promises to be one of the
better competitions in the country.

As mentioned above, I am the Competition Judge Director, so
please let me know if any of you would be interested in coming
to Charlotte to judge.  As mentioned above, we will be
giving the Beer Judge Certification Exam.  Remember, even
if you haven't taken the exam, points are given retro-
actively.

Shopowners, if you would like to donate prizes, please
contact me as well.

As added enticement for the trip, Springfest is THE largest
street party in the state of NC.  They literally close off
downtown Charlotte, put bands on every street corner; food,
crafts, and art exhibits down each street, and a wild and
riotous time is had by all!  Add to that the two BrewPubs
in Charlotte: The Mill and Dillworth Brewing Company, and
there will be more than enough events and places to go to
keep the adventurous satisfied.

The U.S. Open Competition will be a great way to break the
Winter chill and usher in the Spring.  So pass the word to
your local homebrew clubs and friends.

Get brewing and send in those beers!!!

Cheers,

Kinney Baughman              :  Beer is my business and
baughmankr at appstate.bitnet   :  I'm late for work.

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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 91 10:01:11 mst
From: hplabs!hp-lsd.cos.hp.com!ihlpl!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: The Wholesale Homebrew Club

The Wholesale Homebrew Club is owned and operated by the
same people who own and operate Wine and Brew By You.
I have ordered from WBBY once.  They sent me Wyeast which
was 9 months past the date code (Wyeast recommends use
within 6 months of the date code) and I did not receive
a refund when I returned the yeast (a call and letter
did not help).  This was a single experience on my part
and thus may not be a representative case.
Al.


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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 91 10:01:25 mst
From: hplabs!hp-lsd.cos.hp.com!ihlpl!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Re: Underaged beer


I wrote:
>Lagering is not the aging of completed beer.  Lagering is the FERMENTATION.
>When the fermentation takes place at higher temperatures (60, 65, 70F...),
>the yeast produce more by-products (besides CO2 and alcohol) such as
>esters.  Conversely at lower temperatures (50, 45, 40F...), the yeast
>produces less of these by-products.  You'll notice the difference between
>lagers and ales is generally in the fruitiness of the ales. 

I ommitted one important (albeit quite obvious) piece of information:
At higher temperatures the fermentation completes quickly, whereas at
lower temperatures the fermentation takes longer.  This longer fermentation
means that the beer must be stored.  "Storage" in german is "lager," hence
the name.
Al.


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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 91 10:09:05 MST
From: Steve Dempsey <steved at longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu>
Subject: Re: Bad Batch



In HBD #569 Steve Anthony <steveo at Think.COM> writes:

> Well, I recently experienced my first bad batch of beer in 6 years of
> brewing! ...
> First off, I've recently started using Papazian's krausening method of
> priming. I sanitize a 1g glass jug and rack about 1/2g of unpitched wort to
> it. This gets stoppered and put in the fridge. ...
> When it's bottling time, I add the appropriate amount of gyle to
> my bottling bucket (note, right out of the 1g jug. Perhaps I should boil
                                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> this to pasturize?) and add the fermented wort.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The stored wort has no protection from invading nasties -- no
competition by yeasts and no CO2 to ward of the aerobic organisms.
The lower temperature helps but over, say, 10 days is ineffective.
If there is any opportunity for spoilers to get in they will simply
take over.  I usually save extra wort left over from the boil for
krausening, yeast culturing, etc., and always boil it before using.

A couple of times I found visible mold colonies atop the refrigerated
wort.  This despite having boiled the jars and racking tube and of
course used perfect ;-) sanitation for everything else.  I now fill
the jars and pasteurize before refrigerating, just as in canning
other foods for long-term storage.  Suspenders + belt, as it were.


        Steve Dempsey,  Center for Computer Assisted Engineering
  Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523    +1 303 491 0630
INET: steved at longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu, dempsey at handel.CS.ColoState.Edu
UUCP: boulder!ccncsu!longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu!steved, ...!ncar!handel!dempsey

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Date: 22 Jan 91 1227
From: 12100z at D1.dartmouth.edu (Tom Buskey)
Subject: re: Sterilizing bottles in the oven

All this talk about baking the bottles is interesting, but do you realize
how much electricity you guys are using?  The bleach & rinse method uses
very little (just the water pump) and probably takes less time.  It's
just messy.  Baking for 3+ hours in an oven must use quite a bit of
electricity.  No wonder the US uses more energy then the rest of the world.


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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 91 15:19:35 PST
From: mrmike at uigelf.ece.uiuc.edu (Michael J. McCaughey)
Subject: Samuel Smith


	I'm looking for a recipe for Samuel Smith's Imperial Stout.
An extract-based version would be best, but a all grain version
would be great for use later when I have more experience with all
grain brews.

Tnks-n-Rgds,
mrmike
mrmike at uigelf.ece.uiuc.edu       

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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 91 17:01:55 PST
From: polstra!norm at uunet.UU.NET (Norm Hardy)
Subject: German Grain

Chris Shenton asks:

>Was the grain smoked by any chance?....

YES, rauch malt is available (there are some dozen types of malt) and it
is definitely the real thing.  Contact Liberty Malt in Seattle.
Their address is 1432 Western Ave in Seattle,  phone (206) 622-1880.

As a note on the German malt, some of the Brews Brothers have tried a 
decoction mash and had bad luck getting the pilsner malt to convert.  Hearing
that, I did a conservative step mash in four steps over the course of 2.5 hrs.
The conversion went fine.

Norm Hardy


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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 91 23:01:21 -0600 (CST)
From: Brian Capouch <brianc at zeta.saintjoe.EDU>
Subject: Carbonation in ruh beer

I wonder if any of you out there have ever had this "problem."  I brewed
a batch of beer on Christmas eve, and have been assessing it the last
week or two for gravity and taste.  

This batch, and this has happened infrequently but a few times in the
past, has a wonderful pinpoint carbonation right now as it sits in the
secondary, even though its gravity is now stable, and it looks and
tastes like it is ready to bottle. 

My question is this: why would this beer do this?  Why would other
batches *not* do this?  

If it weren't for the infection potential (about which I'm working up a
posting) I'd just siphon it out of the carboy into my glass, and
dispense (pun intended) with all the hassle of bottling.  I also wonder
how to figure out how much priming sugar to use--I did this once before
to some sparkling beer, and got grenades a month later. 

Brian Capouch
Saint Joseph's College
brianc at saintjoe.edu

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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 91 22:55:36 -0600 (CST)
From: Brian Capouch <brianc at zeta.saintjoe.EDU>
Subject: Re: More questions about Barley sources

Jeff Miller asks about "seed" barley, and wants to grow his own.  

I would say, if you're going to go to all the trouble of growing,
harvesting, threshing (ughh) and malting your own barley, you ought to
take the time to do a little investigating.  I'm reasonably certain that
barley bred to be good animal feed will probably be very different when
it's malted than barley grown for malting. 

You could call, I would expect, your local "county agent," who is also
called an "agricultural extension agent."  S/he will work jointly for
the US Dept. of Agriculture, the state you live in, and the local county
government.  These people advise on agricultural issues and
technologies, and I believe you'll find one in every county in the USA. 
Anyway, see if you can find one of these people, and see if they can
find some names of varieties that you can order for malting purposes. 
Once you've got the name of a variety, call around (yellow pages) and
see if you can find someone who'll sell you seed.  You might have to buy
a 50-lb sack of it, however, and that will plant about 40,000 square
feet.  Your leftover seed barley, if it hasn't been treated with
chemicals, would be a great source of practice material for your malting
process.  From what I understand you'll need it. 

I visited the Briess facility in Chilton, WI,  a little over a week ago.
 It was a wonderful visit, and I learned more about malting than I knew
before I went in there.  I just wish I'd been a more knowledgeable
observer.  Malting is a biological process as well as an industrial one,
and slight slipups render the product either unusable or badly impaired
with respect to quality.  Also be aware that the same variety of barley
will differ widely in its malting characteristics depending on where it
is grown, how it's fertilized, and the growing season's weather.  

Be sure, if you buy "spring" barley, to get it planted as early as you
can.  This helps it get an early start on weeds that would compete with
it, and helps it complete its growing before (*I don't have any idea
where you live*) the weather warms up and it's subject to drouth and
diseases caused by the humidity of summer.  If you buy a "winter"
barley, don't plant it until the fall.  I don't know if barley is
available as either, or both, or what, but it makes a huge difference in
its cultivation. 

Good luck--keep us posted on your results.

Brian Capouch
Saint Joseph's College
brianc at saintjoe.edu

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Date: Wed, 23 Jan 91 10:13 EST
From: MIKE FERTSCH <FERTSCH at adc1.adc.ray.com>
Subject: RE:  European Carboys

Al "in Geneva" Albano is still looking for a Swiss or French Supply House,
and particularly wants to find a European supplier of carboys: 

> I have been dragging my supplies back from the states and the U.K. 
> whenever I get the chance. This is less than an optimum solution and 
> one that still hasn't permited me to pick up some much needed carboys.

> Does someone out there have a suggestion on at least where I might be 
> able to locate a local carboy supplier?

I've never seriously looked for supplies in Europe, but I'm sure you can
track down carboys somewhere.  My new 3-gallon carboys were manufactured in
Italy - Italian home-winemakers apparently use glass carboys for their
fermentations.  Carboys and demi-johns should be easy to find.  I suggest
looking in the yellow pages (or the French/Swiss equivalent) for winmaking
suppliers. 

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Date: Wed, 23 Jan 91 20:09:45 PST
From: polstra!norm at uunet.UU.NET (Norm Hardy)
Subject: Lager Fermentation Control

A few questions have come up about the Hunter Energy Monitor Model 42205,
also known as the Hunter Air-Stat.

In Seattle look up Sutter Home and Hearth in the phone book.  They have at
least 3 in stock (at last look) and order 6 at a time if there is sufficient
demand.  They are bemused that it is so popular for brewing.

In other locales, look up in the Yellow Pages under Fans.  Try to find
by brand the Hunter fans.  If not, try looking under Air Conditioning for
the Hunter brand.

If not, write the Hunter Fan Company
                  2500 Frisco Avenue
                  Memphis, TN  38114.

I paid the full $50 list price; you can probably do better.  It is worth
whatever you can get it for.

The *DEDICATED* lager brewer will use the programming ability to have it
automatically lower the temperature up to 4 times per day to slowly get
to the desired point without having to do it manually.  The only drawback
is that you have to change the progamming the next day or it will go back
to those 4 temperatures again.  No big, just reprogram it the next night for
the following day.
 
I don't bother, the HOLD feature is working great.  But now, I have to 
change my brew sheets to reflect a time chart showing the fermentation
temperatures per day.  This could get serious, but then nobody said that
duplicating Andechs would ever come (easy).

Norm 
Hardy

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Date: Wed, 23 Jan 91 12:21:16 CST
From: hplabs!ardent!uunet!inland.com!pals
Subject: Yeast attenuation

I know what "yeast attenuation" means in a qualitative sense: the
more attenuative the yeast, the more fermentables get converted.
My question is - what does it mean quantitatively, e.g. if a yeast yeilds
"apparent attenuation of 73 - 77%", how do I use those numbers?
A first guess would be that a 75% attenuation of beer with OG of 1.060
will yeild a final gravity of 1.015.  Is this correct?

Randy Pals
pals at inland.com


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #570, 01/24/91
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