---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Low Drinking Rate (John DeCarlo)
  Use of Bleach (John DeCarlo)
  Batch Latch Questions (MC2331S)
  Yeast on slants -- what's it look like? (Chris Shenton)
  Original gravity estimate (Russ Gelinas)
  Chimay Yeast and Bottling Dates (Don McDaniel)
  Boston Brew Pubs (Kevin Yager)
  Sheaf Stout recipe (extract preferably) anyone? (Gary Mason  22-Mar-1991 1218)
  Looking for All Grain Barleywine recipe (Nick Thomas)
  Re: Homebrew Digest #602 (March 22, 1991 ("st. stephen")
  Using rocks to boil the wort (George Bragg)
  Re: rock n' rauchbier (Darryl Richman)
  culturing Chimay Ale yeast (Brian Bliss)
  RE: Yeast/Small Batches (Attilio Lee Menegoni)
  Re: Homebrew Digest #602 (March 22, 1991) (Crawford.WBST129)
  malt vinegar (chip upsal)
  Michael Jackson visits Ithaca (Stephen Russell)
  Hop plants (bryan)
  RE: Liquid yeast in small quantities (Conway A. Bolt, III 5-8810)
  Chlorine (Bill Crick)
  New to the art ("603APSSS")
  New to the art


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmi at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmi at hplabs.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Friday, 22 Mar 1991 08:27:56 EST
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Low Drinking Rate

>From: "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <graham%drcv06.decnet at drcvax.af.mil>

>As I am beginning my homebrewing avocation, I realize that I'll
>probably brew in smaller than five gallon batches since I am the
>only person I know in my immediate vicinity who likes beer.

Well, that is (was?) also the case with me.  I don't drink a lot
of beer, ranging from one to five bottles a week.  No one else in
the immediate vicinity drinks beer.

However, the beer keeps great in the cellar.  I just finished a
bitter I made a year and a half ago and it still tastes really
good.  I just don't brew as often as many others, plus I have
lots of different brews to choose from.

Plus, whenever we have a party, I don't have to buy any beer for
it :-).

Also, I usually use a couple of the 1 or 2-liter plastic soda
bottles, and save it for parties, either at my house or a
friend's.

>If I'm using a dry yeast, dividing the package in half, or even
>in fourths is no real problem, but I like the sound of using
>liquid yeast.  How can I use liquid yeast for 1, 2 or 3 gallon
>batches?  I know I can use a portion and discard the rest, but
>that's EXPENSIVE.  Is there a liquid yeast available in small
>packages, or is there a good way to save Wyeast once it's
>opened?

Well, no matter what the size of your batch, the more yeast you
can put into it, the better.  I wouldn't divide dry yeast into
fourths or such, just use a whole packet or two even for small
batches.  You *can't* put too much yeast in the wort!!

There are ways of culturing yeast and saving it for later, but
I'm not qualified to tell anyone how to do it.

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
           (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

Return to table of contents


Date: Friday, 22 Mar 1991 08:28:33 EST
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Use of Bleach

>From: hplabs!ardent!uunet!pdn.paradyne.com!jgg (Joe Gabriel)

>    2. heavy bleach solution used to sterilize bottles...rinsed
>       with cool water.

>I vote for 2 and 4 for the most likely culprits in the case of
>the "offtaste" beers.  The reasons being, thinking way back

The best advice someone gave me early on was not to use too much
bleach, as already mentioned.  Two tablespoons per five gallons
is plenty.  Remember, the bleach you *smell* in the water is not
attacking bugs.

In my experience, five minutes after I dump the bleach solution
out of the fermenter, etc., I can't smell the bleach in there any
more.

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
           (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 22 Mar 91 09:02 CDT
From: MC2331S at ACAD.DRAKE.EDU
Subject: Batch Latch Questions

	My partner and I are starting to get tired of all the bottle washing we
are doing.  I got a flyer in the mail from the company that makes the Batch 
Latch system for party balls.  However, we can't seem to figure out what we would need to get started.
	Does anybody else use this system?  How well does it work?  What would
we need to get started?
	Thanks
	Mark Castleman
	MC2331S at ACAD.DRAKE.EDU

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 22 Mar 91 10:33:49 EST
From: Chris Shenton <chris at endgame.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Yeast on slants -- what's it look like?

A few digests back, I whined about apparently not being able to get yeast
to culture on slants -- there was no sign of life, infection or otherwise
after 4 days. Well, I got no replies :-(. 

Yesterday, I looked again, and there is some very slight lumpiness on the
carmel-colored agar^2. No furriness/fuzziness. No all-white patches, just
something which looks a little different than last week. 

What do your slants look like? What dilution of extract to you mix with
your agar? 

Thanks.
- --
``You can lead a yeast to culture, but you can't make it drink.''

Return to table of contents


Date:    Fri, 22 Mar 1991 10:54:55 EST
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: Original gravity estimate

I've been "estimating" initial gravity as follows:  Take a sample
of the boiling wort. Let it cool. Measure its gravity.  My boils
are about 3.5 gallons, so I add 1.5 gallons of water (at a gravity
of 1.0) to get 5 gallons.  So, if the wort measured 1.080, I would
estimate (3.5*1.080) + (1.5 * 1.0) = 5.28 worth of "weight" in the
full 5 gallons.  Divide by 5 to get 1.056 OG.  Not exact, but it 
should be close. Am I forgetting anything?

Russ

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 22 Mar 91 09:20:43 -0700
From: dinsdale at chtm.unm.edu (Don McDaniel)
Subject: Chimay Yeast and Bottling Dates


In the recent discussions of the culturing of Chimay yeast
there have been two references to bottle dates.  I have a
bottle in my cellar that I'm saving until I'm ready to culture
the dregs.  I examined it the other day and can find no date
on it.  Is the date coded?  Where should I be looking?

I recieved the Chimay and a 750 ml bottle of Corsendonk Monks
Brown Ale for my birthday last month.  I split the Corsendonk
with the friend who gave it to me.  We had a religious experience!
As soon as it warms a little, I MUST make a trappist ale.  From
the discussion here and in Miller's book it seems there is really
no substitute for original trappist yeast.

Don McDaniel


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1991 12:01:47 EST
From: sct60a.sunyct.edu!yagerk at sct60a.sunyct.edu (Kevin Yager)
Subject: Boston Brew Pubs

I am planning a trip to Boston, MA. Could someone suggest some good brewpubs in 
that area?  Howabout breweries and homebrew shops?

                             Kevin Yager
                             yagerk at sct60a.sunyct.edu

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 22 Mar 91 12:14:25 -0500
From: mason at habs11.ENET.DEC.COM (Gary Mason 22-Mar-1991 1218)
Subject: Sheaf Stout recipe (extract preferably) anyone?

I am looking for an extract recipe for Sheaf Stout.  Does anyone have one lying 
about?

While I am at it, I am also trying to put together a spreadsheet (or two, or...) 
to work with homebrew stuff.  One thing that I have wanted to have for a long 
time is a definitive discussion on conversion of grain to extract recipes. It is 
probably floating around somewhere, but I find that I have many bits and pieces 
of stuff relating to a lot of subjects, and correlating it gets to be a problem.  
So...does anyone have a writeup on the comparison of grain to malt extract syrup 
to DME around that could be mailed/posted?  Besides the pure quantity issue, are 
there any other issues (effect on hop extraction rates, etc.)?  Thanks, and

Cheers...Gary

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 22 Mar 91 10:20:58 PST
From: nt at Eng.Sun.COM (Nick Thomas)
Subject: Looking for All Grain Barleywine recipe


	Does anyone out there have any experience with
all-grain barleywines?  All of the recipes I've come across
are at least half extract.  Given the SG needed, that makes
a lot of sense.  Of course I don't have a lot of sense and
I want to try an all-grain batch anyway.
	I took the Anchor Steam Brewery tour recently, and 
they mumbled something about making Old Foghorn with
three sets of grain, or
sparging the grains three times or something like that
	Anyone done it successfully?.

	And a troubleshooting question - I've got a batch
that tastes almost,
but not quite like fresh squeezed grapefruit juice.
I'd welcome any comments on that too.

	Thanks,

 -nick (nice guy - can't park a car)

Return to table of contents


Date:         Fri, 22 Mar 91 13:31:31 EST
From: "st. stephen" <ST402836 at brownvm.brown.edu>
Subject:      Re: Homebrew Digest #602 (March 22, 1991

Howdy,
    My brew partners and i have just bought our first package of Wyeast.
First of all, i understand from the directions on the package that the
yeast should be started some time before we're ready to pitch it.  The
package says "1 day for every month after the code date".  Do i really
believe this?  Break the inner seal, adn the yeast will be ready for pitching
in 2 days?
    Second:  We would like to use this yeast in another fermentation (after
the current one).  I gather from recent net comments that if we wanted to
use this yeast immediately after the current fermentation, we could just
dump some of the trub from the bottom of the 1st fermenter into the new
one.  Is this correct?
    Now, suppose that we don't want 10 gals of the same beer around (picky
aren't we?).  How can we keep the yeast around 'till we're ready for it?
I've heard something about putting it in a beer bottle (all very sanitized)
and putting in the fridge, and then getting it started in a mixture of water
and malt before pitching.  Is this basically correct?  What details do i need?
   Thanks for all your help ...

steve

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 22 Mar 91 14:54 EST
From: George Bragg <George_Bragg at carleton.ca>
Subject: Using rocks to boil the wort

Being a geology-type person, I hope I can talk semi-knowledgably about
rocks, even if I can't tell malt from hops! :)
The question about rocks shattering at high heat gets a resounding NO!
If the rock does not contain water trapped in pockets that can convert to
steam, nothing will explode.  Crystalline rocks (ie granites) are probably
better for this, because they were formed at temperatures above 600 degrees
a lot of time any way.  Besides, with limestones you run the risk of limey
beer due to dissolution of the calcium carbonate - definitely not a treat!
  As for poisonous rocks, believe it or not, the answer could well be yes.
Many rock-forming minerals contain such unpleasantries as lead, arsenic,
or heavy metals.  As a general rule, stay away from any pretty, metallic
minerals.  They'll contain things like sulphides, which would help to
sterilize the wort, but wouldn't do much for the yeast.  As I say, they
probably use granitic rocks, due to the low content of soluble minerals.
                                  ...gcb
 
Disclaimer: If I knew what I was talking about, I'd be a professor, not
            a student!

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 22 Mar 91 12:25:39 -0800
From: darryl at ism.isc.com (Darryl Richman)
Subject: Re: rock n' rauchbier

> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 91 10:08:48 EST
> >From: Chris Shenton <chris at endgame.gsfc.nasa.gov>
> Subject: Rock'n'Rauchbier?
> 
> Many of you have seen/heard Michael Jackson's description of one of the
> Rauchbiers from Bamberg which employes superheated rocks to bring their
> wort to a boil; subsequently, the rocks are put in the fermenter, where the
> carmelized sugars are digested.

I believe you have rauchbier confused with steinbier.  The former is a normal
dark lager beer made with malt that has been dried over smokey beech log
fires.  Steinbier is indeed made by adding hot rocks to the wort to induce
it to boil.

		--Darryl Richman



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 22 Mar 91 14:33:09 CST
From: bliss at csrd.uiuc.edu (Brian Bliss)
Subject: culturing Chimay Ale yeast


I've Cultured two batches so far, both from 750 ml bottles
of Chimay Red Ale.  I boiled about 3/4 lb of dry malt extract
for each bottle.  The frist bottle I stored at 65 F, and it
wasn't going at all after 2 days, so I moved it to a kitchen
cupboard at 75-80F.  Within a day it was spurting through the airlock.
I started the second batch and left it at 75F, and it took
2 days to reach the air lock.  Both batches took off and fermented
very rapidly for around a day and a half, and then it was over
just like that.  like 150 blubs a minute from an econo-lock
air lock after 24-36 hours.  less than 1 blub a minute 24 hours
later.

bb


Return to table of contents


Date:         22 Mar 91 14:15:07 EST
From: Attilio Lee Menegoni <ATTILIO.MENEGONI at OFFICE.WANG.COM>
Subject:      RE: Yeast/Small Batches


RE: HBD #599 - Dan Graham's yeast questions:

Dan: I am a novice brewer (2 extract dry yeast, 4 partial mash yweast) batches
Taking the advice from the HBD the best things I did for taste improvement
were partial mash and liquid yeast.  Since it takes as much effort, equipment
cost, 3 gallon and 5 gallon carboys are about the same price, I would brew in
5 gallon batches.  I use a glass 6.5G ($12) primary  and glass 5G secondary.
   A pak of liquid yeast isn't like a pak of dry yeast from a population
stand point.  Per Miller's book on homebrewing it is important to have a
large population at pitch time. Hence the need to produce a starter.  With
the use of this method I have had very active fermentation within 24 hours
of pitching on all 4 batches using liquid yeast.  It takes about 4-5 days from
when I activate the culture in the pak until my starter is ready to pitch.
I usally activate on Monday and brew on Friday.
    This is how I re/use liquid yeast: 1) start per directions on the pouch.
2) When inflated, 1-2 days, make a starter I use a 1.5L wine bottle half full
of wort, insert air lock 2 days later its ready to pitch.  I make this wort
from 6oz dry malt in quart of water and boil 15 minutes with a few hop pellets
and 1/2tsp yeast nutrient.  Cool in fridge add strained contents to the wine
bottle and pitch pouch contents when starter fluid is at room temp.  When the
starter exhibits active fermentation, about 2 days I brew.
  3) After pitching and mixing the starter with may 5 gallons of wort I save
6 oz of the aerated wort in a bottle with air lock in my fridge.  I have reused
a month later by letting it sit at room temp for a couple days and pitching to
a starter wort like #2 above with no problems.  I do this to get 2 batches per
yweast which yeilds a per batch cost for yeast of 2.50 +- .25  I did not
mention sanitation, it is a given for all brewing.  Also I did not try to
3culture this.   I will not brew another batch with dry yeast, the results
are worth the extra cost, $2.5 vs $1, and would recommend it for any brewer.
Using this method I plan 2 batches ahead.  I used 1056 AM ale yeast for 2 test
batches which were very similar to see if my process worked.  I used 1028
British ale for a Brown Ale and Bitter.  I try to use the type yeast that goes
with a certain style.  I will use 1056 again. (and again)
                                   Brew Free or Die
                            Attilio "Lee' Menegoni     Hudson NH

Return to table of contents


Date: 	Fri, 22 Mar 1991 12:42:37 PST
From: Crawford.WBST129 at xerox.com
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #602 (March 22, 1991)


Larry,

The PMS# for the modem speaker problem is 300356 (RIC Modem speaker should be
disabled during dial out).

Greg
x25640
129/144N

Return to table of contents


Date: 22 Mar 91 15:43:59 EST
From: chip upsal <70731.3556 at compuserve.com>
Subject: malt vinegar

"MR. DAVID HABERMAN" <habermand at afal-edwards.af.mil> writes about making
malt vinegar.


>In the February "California Celebrator", Byron Burch has an article about
>making malt vinegar.  I immediately had a craving for fish and chips!  Has
>anyone else tried this?  He says to get a malt vinegar bacteria culture
from
>a home brew supplier and put it in a gallon jug with 2 bottles of beer.
The
>gallon jar is covered with layers of cheesecloth.  After 5 or six weeks,
it
>should be done.  The resulting vinegar can then be used as a starter for 8
>more bottles of beer.  Can I go to the store and buy a bottle of malt
vinegar
>and use it ffor a starter?  Is the stuff in the store pasturized so that
you
>can't do that?  (Now all I need is a deep fryer to make fish and chips!)


I have wanted to make malt vinegar for some time and I plan too this
summer.  Vinegar seems to like warmer temps for fermentation about 80 F
is what I have read.

I qustion using bottled beer in making vinegar; how do the hopps affect
the flavor?

Before using store boght vinegar read the lable.  It is often pasturized
and filtered.  Thus you will have no mother to innoulate your beer.

Good luck

Chip

"in heaven there is no beer, that is why we drink it here...."


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 22 Mar 91 16:21:36 EDT
From: srussell at snoopy.msc.cornell.edu (Stephen Russell)
Subject: Michael Jackson visits Ithaca

Greetings all....

If any of you happen to be in or near the Ithaca, NY, area during the
week of April 2nd, know that MICHAEL JACKSON, author of the books
THE NEW WORLD GUIDE TO BEER and THE POCKET GUIDE TO BEER will be visiting
our town that week.

There will be a dinner at the Statler Hotel, Cornell University, on
Tuesday, April 2nd at 7pm.  The theme is "pairing beer with food".  In
addition, on the following night, Wednesday, April 3rd, the Ithaca
Homebrewers Club will be taking Mr. Jackson to dinner at a local
restaurant.  Later that night, at 8:15pm, Mr. Jackson will be the
honored guest of our brew club at our monthly meeting, which will be
held at the CHAPTER HOUSE BREWPUB, 400 Stewart Avenue, Ithaca.  All are
welcome to attend our meeting (as usual) and bring homebrews.  Mr. Jackson
will be tasting Chapter House beers and our homemade beers and offering
his advice/praises/criticisms.  He will also be signing copies of his
book for any who bring them.

If anyone thinks this is enough to warrant an unplanned road trip to
Ithaca and you'd like more information, let me know.  My home phone is
607-273-7306 (leave message), work is 607-255-4648;  ask for Steve.
Better yet, send e-mail to:

srussell at snoopy.msc.cornell.edu

Hoppy fermentations,

STEPHEN RUSSELL
Primary Fermenter
Ithaca Homebrewers Club


Return to table of contents


Date: 22 Mar 91 13:17:01 PST (Fri)
From: bryan at tekgen.bv.tek.com
Subject: Hop plants

I just moved to a new home this year and haven't decided on a permenant
home for my hop plants. Does anyone have an idea how wide and deep
a pot should be for 1 or 2 hop plants?

			Thanks,
				Bryan Olson
				bryan at tekgen.BV.TEK.COM

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 22 Mar 91 15:33:32 EST
From: bolt at tom.WEC.COM (Conway A. Bolt, III 5-8810)
Subject: RE: Liquid yeast in small quantities

In HBD 599 Dan Graham asked:

>As I am beginning my homebrewing avocation, I realize that I'll probably 
>brew in smaller than five gallon batches since I am the only person I know 
>in my immediate vicinity who likes beer.

>If I'm using a dry yeast, dividing the package in half, or even in fourths 
>is no real problem, but I like the sound of using liquid yeast.  How can I 
>use liquid yeast for 1, 2 or 3 gallon batches?  I know I can use a portion 
>and discard the rest, but that's EXPENSIVE.  Is there a liquid yeast 
>available in small packages, or is there a good way to save Wyeast once 
>it's opened?
 	My two cents for what ever that's worth (~2 cents) would be to 
put the liquid yeast in a sterile bottle (I like 1/2 gallon booze bottles)
of a sugar (not table) & water mixture and put an airlock on it. This would 
probably be sufficient for short periods of time. Each time you need some 
yeast, sterilize the outer lip of the bottle and pour accordingly. For longer
periods > 1 week, I would suggest the same sugar/water mix, but 1/4 fill 
several sterile beer bottles instead. Sterilize the bottlecaps and cap em. I
have used this latter technique to store lager yeast for several weeks at a 
pop in my fridge. I highly recomend refrigerating the sealed containers as 
glass grenades & wives don't mix.
	My other suggestion would be to get higher quality friends
(ie the kind that likes good homebrew) and then you could brew in more
economical quantities. Try combining your ham radio & beer making hobbies
and broadcast at 1000w that a new batch is ready.

Conway Bolt
Westinghouse Defence & Electronics Center

Return to table of contents


Date: 	Fri, 22 Mar 1991 17:33:50 -0500
From: hplabs!bnr-vpa!bnr-rsc!crick (Bill Crick)
Subject: Chlorine

A lot of people are using what I would consider far too much chlorine bleach.
A few teaspoons per gallon is lots! In fact I use it very little, except for
blasting otherwise tough to clean stains. I rely on Sanitone soap powder,
and lots of boiling water.

Note that according to my wife, the food scientist, many food grade plastics
will absorb fairly large amounts of chlorine, and they will difuse out later
This means that if you use a large concentration of chlorinw bleach in 
or on plastic, you can rinse your brains out, and still end up with chlorine 
that is in the plastic coming out and contaminating you beer causing
astringent, plastic, bandaid smell problems. 
 THis discussion came up because a friend ran into this problem after
changing one thing in his process. He had went from detergent, and boiling 
water cleaning, to nuking a stubborn yeast stain out of a plastic primary 
fermenter carboy with chlorine bleach!!

Also I think boiling caps is ridiculous! I've used somewhere between 
5000 - 10000 caps right out of the box, and never had a problem ever. 
Remember, by the time you get to bottling, your beer has enough alcohol
to be fairly resistant to contamination. This is the reason beer 
was a popular beverage over the last few thousand years, because it 
can be made in less than clean room conditions and still be sdafe to drink.
Granted, keeping things clean gives you more consistant results, and I'm
not advocating dirtiness, but back off with the sever chemical warfare!

M
Bill Crick Brewius, Egro Sum!



Return to table of contents


Date: 24 Mar 91 19:44:00 GMT-9:00
From: "603APSSS" <603apsss at kadena-emh.af.mil>
Subject: New to the art

                   I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O R A N D U M

                                        Date:      24-Mar-1991 07:36pm JST
                                        From:      603rd Aerial Port Squadron 
                                                   603APSSS 
                                        Dept:      Systems Support Center
                                        Tel No:    

TO:  Remote Addressee                     ( __HOMEBREW%HPFCMR at HPLABS.HP.COM )


Subject: New to the art

I'm new to this mailing list and have never tried to brew my own beer. I would 
like to try it but don't know where to start. I would apreciate any advice 
anyone would care to give: good books, recepies, materials, etc.. I am currently 
stationed in Japan, and am sure it is not permited to brew here, but I will be 
returning to the States soon. I will be located in the St. Louis area (the 
Ilinois side of the river), I would also appreciate information about suppliers, 
and rules in this area.

I'm sorry if this is a request that you get so often that you hate to see it 
comming, but thanks if you can help!!

	James Linscheid
	603apsss at kadena-emh.af.mil



Return to table of contents



End of HOMEBREW Digest #603, 03/25/91
*************************************
-------

---