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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Pulque and Broken Carboy (Redux) (TSAMSEL)
  Long term effects of homebrew (Rob Malouf)
  CULTURE AND IT'S EFFECTS ON ALCOHOLISM (ZIGGY)
  nuclear carboys? (Bruce A Macwilliams)
  Re: Long term effects... (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  beer bread (Chip Hitchcock)
  Bad Science & Homebrew (Fred Condo)
  Re: Long Term Physiological Effects of Beer Drinking (John S. Watson - FSC)
  Re: Mason Jars? NO! (John S. Watson - FSC)
  get a clue (synchro!chuck)
  UPS sucks (synchro!chuck)
  Re:  Homebrew Digest #622 (April 24, 1991) (csswingley)
  Mason jar hooch (Randy Tidd)
  Mason jars, I've tried it. (Jim White)
  In need of Hunter Energy Monitor (Ken Ellinwood)
  Re: Long Term Effects (larryba)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmi at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmi at hplabs.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


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Date:    Wed, 24 Apr 1991 8:01:14 EDT
From: TSAMSEL at ISDRES.ER.USGS.GOV
Subject: Pulque and Broken Carboy (Redux)

 I have had the pleasure of drinking fresh pulque while in Mexico. If you
can still find them, the pulqueri'as have lurid murals on the walls and are
a step back in time for a home brewer. (Not grain/malt but you get to watch
the fermentation as you drink).
  This was nearly 20 years ago but we stopped in a pulqueria called "Los 
Tigres" (the tigers) somewhere between Saltillo and San Luis Potosi. The walls
were emblazoned with tigers playing baseball. We brought in our cups, bought
a gourd full and drank. Very weird and yeasty. We filled acouple of gallon
milk jugs and put them in the ice chest and continued on our journey, venting 
them every hour or so. Other than moderate flatulence, no ill effects were
percieved.
  Broken carboy II:
   After aquiring a 15 gallon carboy, a friend made several batches of (yech)
raisin wine. The final batch occurred when a raisin made its way into the
blowoff tube, obstructing the vent. Thus a 15 gallon raisin jack bomb.
Luckily no one was in the house at the time.
  Ted (tsamsel at usgsresv.bit)

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Date: Wed, 24 Apr 91 09:31 EST
From: Rob Malouf <RMALOUF at MSRC.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject: Long term effects of homebrew

I read an article a while back that reported a statistical link between 
"moderate" beer consumption (whatever that is) and certain kinds of cancer.
As I recall, they found no such relationship between drinking wine or clear
spirits and cancer.  Perhaps the carcinogenic ingredient is one of the
unsavory additives used in commercial beer production, but I would not be
surprised if it were a naturally occuring beer component.  Of course, I live
just up the road from Love Canal, so I'm not going to worry about a little
nitrosamines in by homebrew!

Rob Malouf
rmalouf at msrc.sunysb.edu

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Date: Wed, 24 Apr 91 09:29:07 PDT
From: tima at apd.MENTOR.COM (Tim Anderson  at  APD x2205)

In HBD 622, Lee Katman writes:

>in HBD 620 Ken vanWyk asked about cooking with beer on Homebrew Digest. There
>is a nice recipe for Cheddar Cheese soup that has beer as an ingredient in the
>first cookbook by _The Frugal Gourmet_ (a PBS show). I don't have it, but it is
>in print, and your local library might even have it. I used to have a nice
>recipe for quick beer bread, but I never wrote it down. I think it was 3-2-1: 3
>cups flour, 2 eggs, 1 bottle beer, but I can't remember for sure. I never saw a
>recipe that specifically mentions homebrew, but no doubt using better beer will
>make for better food.

I've recently tried a couple of recipes using beer.  One was a cheese soup,
which called for ale, the other a beef soup with a thin broth that just said
beer.  In the first case, I used Hood River Golden Ale, in the second case a
pale ale of my own.  Both soups were excessively bitter.  My wife, who believes
the only good use for malt is in milkshakes, found them to be unpalatable, and
even to me, a born-again hophead, they were unpleasant.  My guess is that the
heat accentuates the bitterness.  I'm seriously considering trying American
industrial swill next time, since the hops in most of these seem to exist in the
imagination only.

I'd like to believe that "better beer will make for better food", but maybe not.


tim

Tim Anderson   tima at mentorg.com


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Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1991 12:35 EST
From: ZIGGY <JPZ94%GENESEO.BITNET at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: CULTURE AND IT'S EFFECTS ON ALCOHOLISM

        FIRST OF ALL, WHAT IS ALCOHOLISM? THE BEST DEFINITION I CAN COME UP WITH
    IS THAT AN INDIVIDUAL:
                1) CAN'T CONTROL THE AMOUNT HE OR SHE DRINKS
                2) FAILS TO YIELD WARNINGS OF FRIENDS AND FAMILY ABOUT HIS OR
                   DRINKING
                3) ALLOWS ALCOHOL TO BECOME MORE IMPORTANT THAN HIS OR HER
                   COMMITMENTS
        SECONDLY, I REMEMBER READING A STUDY THAT STATED THAT THE LEADING
CAUSES OF ALCOHOLISM IS THE SITUATION IN WHICH AN INDIVIDUAL IS RAISED.
THE COUNTRIES WITH THE HIGHEST RATES OF ALCOHOLISM ARE THOSE WHERE THE PEOPLE
ARE ECONOMICALLY AND POLITICALLY OPPRESSED (SOVIET UNION IS A GOOD EXAMPLE) OR
WHERE DRINKING IS NOT CONSIDERED A CULTURAL OR FAMILY ACTIVITY.
        AS A COLLEGE STUDENT, I HAVE SEEN THAT THE PEOPLE WITH THE GREATEST
PROBLEMS WITH ALCOHOL ARE THOSE WHO USE ALCOHOL TO "FORGET ABOUT ..." OR "JUST
NOT TO FEEL ANYTHING".
        THE PROBLEM IS THAT WITH THE DRINKING AGE (21) ALCOHOL IS FIRST
INTRODUCED TO THE INDIVIDUAL AS SOMETHING TO HIDDEN AND KEPT SECRET.  IF
INDIVIDUALS WERE INTRODUCED TO ALCOHOL AS THEY ARE IN WESTERN EUROPE, PROBLEM
DRINKING WOULD MOST LIKELY DECLINE.
                                JAMES ZUNIGA
                                JPZ94 at GENESEO.BITNET

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Date: Wed, 24 Apr 91 12:38:22 EDT
From: bmac at wpi.WPI.EDU (Bruce A Macwilliams)
Subject: nuclear carboys?

Yesterday I puchased a couple of 6.5 gal glass carboys from a local
chemical supply company. They both supposedly previously contained HCl,
but were not identical. One had a sticker on it reading: 

                          ATTENTION!!
            This Container hazardous when emptied. 
    Since emptied container retains product residues (vapor,
    liquid, or solid), all labeled hazard precautions must
    be observed.                                      SCD-3-78

also on the bottom, it is stamped NRC (please tell me this doesn't stand
for Nuclear Regulatory Commission). Is anyone familiar with HCl bottling
practices, would a bottle of acid normally have a label like this on it?
Should any special cleansing techniques be used. Should the carboy be 
used at all? Will my beer glow in the dark?

Bruce MacWilliams (not very relaxed and slightly worried).



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Date: Wed, 24 Apr 91 11:12:05 mdt
From: hplabs!hp-lsd.cos.hp.com!ihlpl!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Re: Long term effects...

>Darryl writes:
>best.  Apparently there is a dip in the curve for heart attacks at this
>point.  Above 3/day, the curve starts going way up.  Seems that a nip is
>good for a stress reliever, but when you thoroughly abate the stress, it's
>bad for the other organs.  ;-)

I was under the impression that the benefit is because the alcohol
thins the blood (the same reason that I've heard a doctor suggest
to elderly persons to take one aspirin per day).  Maybe the stress
relief is part of it too, though.

Hat's off to Bob Devine, the only person to put Belgium in their
list of high-consumers.  An article in Zymurgy in 1988 or 1989
listed the amounts of beer per-capita for various countries.
West Germany was #1 and I'm almost positive that Belgium was #2.
This was before I had tasted Belgian beers... now I question why
the Belgians are not #1!

Personally, I abstain on weeknights and drink at a German pace on
weekends (although I'm Lithuanian ;^).

Al.
korz at ihlpl.att.com


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Date: Wed, 24 Apr 91 12:57:50 EDT
From: cjh at diaspar.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: beer bread

   My landlady routinely makes bread with whatever I have leftover after
bottling (e.g., partial bottle at end plus contents of hydrometer (which
various sources say not to put back in the tank)). The results vary with
the intensity of the beer; a good ESB or stout can given great results in a
part-wheat (10-25% whole wheat flour) mix. Weaker-flavored beers tend not
to affect taste because you use several cups of flour for each cup of beer, but
it might be interesting to try a good lager in an all-white sourdoughesque
bread. If your yeast cakes reasonably well you can also pour off what's
left after you rack from the fermenter; this will give a faster-rising dough
but even the pre-bottling beer will do the job if you're patient.
   Note that because the yeast is already suspended in liquid you have to
use a sort-of-sponge method; add flour to the beer until it's almost as thick
as molasses (or batter from a cake mix), then make dough from that when the
yeast is going vigorously. (And that's about the limit of my knowledge
concerning bread making.) It's not a quick operation, but that just means
you can make the starter when you're done bottling, then work on the dough
the next morning.

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Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1991 10:06 PST
From: Fred Condo <CONDOF at CGSVAX.CLAREMONT.EDU>
Subject: Bad Science & Homebrew

In HBD 622, a bunch of people write about how many beers a week constitute
craven dereliction, based on larryba at microsoft's statistician wife's
contention that more than *THREE* bottles of (presumably American light
Pilsner) beer per *WEEK* constitutes "problem" drinking.

I guess we hit a nerve. ;-)

Political disclaimer: I believe people should be free to make their own
personal decisions as long as they don't screw things up for others by,
e.g., running them down with an automobile. I also think the War on Drugs
and Alcohol is really a War on Liberty. Nuff sed.

As someone who does research that involves the use of statistics, I know how
easy it is to do bad science. That's why one must remain skeptical and ever
vigilant against error. I wonder how much of the "alcohol will kill you if
you get within a mile of it" research has a hidden axe to grind. Here's one
error that I suspect may be embarrassingly common and would be widely known
except for the rampant scientific illiteracy in these United States:

Consider the cutoff criterion cited by Mrs. larryba at microsoft: 3 per week.
Now consider an epidemiological study where people are asked how many beers
they drink per week (or even a garbological study where you count the dead
soldiers in their dumpsters). Then you partition the sample into two groups:
those who drink fewer than 3 and those who drink 3 or more per week. Then
you do some kind of medical history on them all. You do an ANOVA or t-test,
and, surprise, surprise! There's a significantly higher incidence of bad
stuff in the 3-or-more group. This is BAD EVIL NASTY science, because the
granularity of the partition isn't fine enough. The 3-or-more-per-week group
includes the 24-per-day people. Alcohol's effects are dose-related, so the
dosages you pick for comparison are critical to the scientific validity of
studies. Without having read the actual studies on which some of the public
pronouncements are based, I just don't believe what I read in the newspaper.
Again, nuff sed.

Write your Congressman and Senators. Tell them what you think the War on
Drugs and Alcohol. Don't wait until they start introducing bills to ban
homebrewing to appease noisy neo-prohibitionists.

Oh, and by the way, you don't really think that homebrew was what was
studied, do you?

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Date: Wed, 24 Apr 91 10:53:24 -0700
From: John S. Watson - FSC <watson at pioneer.arc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Long Term Physiological Effects of Beer Drinking


There is a commercial on TV around here for one of thos chemical
dependency clinics.  In it a somber gent comes on and says, 
"I'm worried about my friend Bob, he's ... he's into BEER AND DRUGS!" (gasp!)

Anyway, it cracks me up everytime I hear it.  


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Date: Wed, 24 Apr 91 11:01:35 -0700
From: John S. Watson - FSC <watson at pioneer.arc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Mason Jars? NO!


My dad tell me when he was a kid. One of his friends put
some dry ice into a mason jar, which blew up and sent chards
of glass threw his neck, killing him dead.  

I don't know if the pressure of a homebrew is anything near 
what dry ice would be, but I wouldn't wanna be around to find out.

Does anyone know the final pressure in a typical homebrew?

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Date: Wed Apr 24 11:02:30 1991
From: bose!synchro!chuck at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: get a clue


I am getting real tired of reading countless 'delete me' messages.
Use the 'homebrew-request' address for administrative messages.
You did it to join the list, you can do it to leave the list.
This is standard operating procedure for all internet mailing lists.

 - Chuck Cox (uunet!bose!synchro!chuck) - Hopped/Up Racing Team -


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Date: Wed Apr 24 11:45:57 1991
From: bose!synchro!chuck at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: UPS sucks


As a businessman, I have been hosed by UPS so many times I should be
blase by now, but they did it again.

Yesterday a neighbor told me they had a package for me from UPS.
They mentioned they had it for a week, why didn't I get it earlier?
Well, UPS had left no note at my address indicating that my neighbor
had a package for me.  This didn't surprise me, it has happened about
a dozen times in the last few years.

What surprised me was the package itself.  It was our entries for the
national competition which we had sent over a week ago.  Affixed was
a large yellow sticker proclaiming "no alcohol through UPS".  The packaging
didn't mention alcohol, the package was sent from the local UPS center and
no mention of alcohol was made.  How did they decide there was alcohol?

I called UPS this morning, all they were willing to do was take a complaint
about the lack of a message.  I explained that the yeast samples were
a time sensitive shipment and I wanted to know how they decided to return
them.  The answer, "we opened the box and saw beer bottles".  They weren't
even apologetic and suggested it was my fault for not writing "yeast
samples" on the package.  They also reminded me that they are not responsible
for perishable goods.

Well I am sure none of this is news to anyone who has dealt much with UPS,
but I felt it was worth posting as a reminder and a warning.
My policy for the last couple of years has been to use FedEx for shipping
anything important, but my brewing partner decided to save a few bucks.
I recommend sending competition entries by FedEx overnight.  It costs
more, but your beer is in their hands less than 24 hours, and actually
arrives at its destination.

 - Chuck Cox (uunet!bose!synchro!chuck) - Hopped/Up Racing Team -


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Date: Wed, 24 Apr 91 12:04:10 PDT
From: csswingley at ucdavis.edu
Subject: Re:  Homebrew Digest #622 (April 24, 1991)

Greetings fellow beerbrewers:
	Just thought I'd add to the list of micro's.
	I live in the Davis/Sacramento area of central California, and
although I am by now means an expert on the microbrewery scene, there are
two breweries around here that make pretty good stuff.
	Sudwerk's is on Pole Line Road and first street in Davis CA
and serves German beers and good food--try the french fries, they are
excellent.  The beer is sometimes excellent, but usually very good.
	Dead Cat Alley is on Main Street in the downtown section of
Woodland CA, about 10 miles north of Davis, and 20 minutes west of Sacramento
on Interstate 5.  It's a more traditional bar, and serves stout, amber and
a lager beer.  The stout and amber are quite good, but sometimes have a
few peculiar flavors.  Not bad, just unusual.  Give it a try if you are in
the area.
	Also check out the Crown City Brewery in Pasadena CA down in the
Los Angeles area.  It is a block from the Amtrak station (which is how I
discovered it)  It has excellent beer, as well as offering a multitude
of world beers to choose from.  It's the best micro I've been to.
	Let me know if anyone knows of any others in my general area.
Adios.

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Date: Wed, 24 Apr 91 15:36:30 EDT
From: rtidd at ccels2.mitre.org (Randy Tidd)
Subject: Mason jar hooch

> From: cjh at vallance.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
> 
>    The alcohol that comes in jars all over the rural south (at least by
> tradition) is mostly corn whiskey at up to 150 proof, so it's not likely to
> carbonate. Your neighbors (e.g., the Atlanta Worldcon bid committees) have
> discovered a manufacturer of (you'll pardon the oxymoron) legal moonshine---
> as a marketing gimmick it's sold in something like a jar (rather like the
> bad sherry that was sold in a drawstring bag (=sack)).

This isn't directly related to home brewing, but this story about "legal
moonshine" reminded me of a friend at Virginia Tech -- he acquired a
jar of "Georgia Moon" whiskey.  It is sold in a mason jar, with a label
that reads "guaranteed to be less than 30 days old!".  It was horrible
stuff -- he had one shot, then kept it around to de-ice the locks on
his car.  It does a great job...

Randy

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Date:    Wed, 24 Apr 91 15:55:30 EDT
From: JWHITE at maine.maine.edu (Jim White)
Subject: Mason jars, I've tried it.

The results were uninspiring.

The jars I used were NOT the old kind with the wire holder and the rubber ring,
but a sort of two part metal lid. One part a circle rimmed on one side with
a rubbery/foamy edge, and fitting into the other threaded part.

In any event, none of the jars reacted dynamically to any pressure buildup,
because there was little or no such buildup (ie. the beer was flat)! The lid
simply didn't seal tight enough.

I was a bit disappointed, as these jars would be easy to clean in a dishwasher,
(substituting B-brite for standard dishwasher fare, mayhap?) but alas I deemed
it a failed experiment.


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Date: Wed, 24 Apr 91 10:32:22 PDT
From: aimla!ruby!ken at uunet.UU.NET (Ken Ellinwood)
Subject: In need of Hunter Energy Monitor

Does anyone know of a vendor for the Hunter Energy Monitor
in the Los Angeles area?  If so, please let me know.  I'd like
to purchase one.  Thanks,

 - Ken Ellinwood -

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Date: Wed Apr 24 11:24:56 1991
From: microsoft!larryba at cs.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Long Term Effects

Wow! thanks for all the personal and digest responses.  I guess people are
getting bored with the intricacies of cleaning copper pipe :=)

First, let me say that my wife doesn't personally believe that 6 pints/week
is a problem. She just uses three drinks a week for classification purposes
in statistical analysis.  She has to set the limit low enough to catch all
potentially problem drinker.  Her main problem with my drinking is that she
is pregnent and can't share.  Also, I tend to lose my "work ethic" (gosh not
too suprising) after a pint.

I have relatives in Italy.  They have wine with Lunch and Dinner.  They never
get intoxicated and they are mildly embarassed by the drinking problem of
Italy (drunk driving and attendant death rates - plus the more chronic
problems of alcoholism).  The people I met in France seemed to share the same
viewpoint.  Of course, my sample was small and highly educated (like this
digest).

The kind of hard data I was looking for was of the medical, personal health,
life span variety.  For example the tannins and tooth decay.  There is a book
called "The Life Extension Handbook" that was popular in the mid 80's.  It
had a section on alcohol and it's affects and how to mitigate them (Papazian
hit the major ones).  Unfortunately the book is full of semi-pseudo-research
references.  I was hoping to get a lead to some reputable, peer reviewed
research or pointers to medical centers doing real research.

I read in the wall street journal that moderate drinking was associated with
lowered cholesterol levels and a more favorable HDL/LDL ratios.  This was
about a week or so ago with regard to a woman who inherited two copies of the
methuselah gene and had *radically* low LDL and extremely high HDL levels.
She also had a drink a day for the last thirty or so years.

Keep those letters coming.  I am interested in pos & neg personal
testimonials. Send them to me direct and I will try to summarize next week.

Personally, I am a "Born Again All Grain HomeBrewer", hence the increased
consumption!  I find that all grain adds about 1.5 hours to my brew (4 hours
start to finish), cuts the costs in half and the results are always just
great. Plus mashing smells so good.  I also like to bake bread.  Hmm.

Larry Barello
Microsoft


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #623, 04/25/91
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