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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  HB Digest no. 624 ("John E. Lenz")
  Hardy's trip to Germany (flowers)
  Re: Can I forfeit the deposit and use the Busch keg? (Chris Shenton)
  Re: Long Term Effects (Marc Rouleau)
  2-liter bottles (Michael Tighe)
  Re:  Homebrew Digest #624 (April 26, 1991) (Michael J. Tuciarone)
  Bass Pro Shops brewing stove (Michael Zentner)
  To A. Dietz (Rad Equipment)
  LA BP's / Pitch yeast at Priming (Doug Dreger)
  more alcoholism BS (Jon Binkley)
  Self fulfilled Alcoholism (Donald P Perley)
  Re: Kegs (Toufic Boubez) (Rick Goldberg - demo guy)


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Date:         Fri, 26 Apr 91 07:56:06 EDT
From: "John E. Lenz" <JELJ at CORNELLA.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:      HB Digest no. 624

In # 624, Jean Hunter writes

>. . . is searching for a Hunter Energy Monitor.  Having read the brief
> recent posting, so am I.

Well, I can't resist.  Jean, is this for personal use, or are you really
going to use it for fermenting?

On a more serious note, Ken Weiss asks about adding a fresh dose of yeast
prior to bottling a batch that has been in the secondary for 8 weeks.

Well Ken, I guess the definitive answer is "It depends."  If this has been
an 8-week cold lagering I'd definitely add some active yeast.  On the other
hand, if it has been at "room temperature" (whatever that is) there may
be enough yeast in suspension to do the conditioning without adding more,
even though the beer appears clear there may indeed be some active yeast
in suspension.  In either case, adding some fresh yeast shouldn't hurt,
unless of course the yeast is some of that infected dry stuff I've been
reading about lately in Zymurgy, and will probably speed up the bottle-
conditioning process.

Lastly, Ron Rader, Jr. writes:
> . . . one thing my Applied Psychology professors always pounded into our
> skulls was the very important concept:
>
>    Correlation, In And Of Itself, Does Not Imply Causation!

They told us that in econometrics as well, but to read the literature you
wouldn't know it.  Economics, being a non-experimental discipline, too often
results in models being concocted on the basis of how some economist thinks
the world works with the results being presented in causal arguments which
really only have there basis in correlations.  All too frequently the above
advice seems to be forgotten, or, worse, ignored.  So you can, if you haven't
already, add economics-related items to the list of things could be hazardous
if taken at face value.

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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1991 10:00:33 -0600
From: flowers at csrd.uiuc.edu
Subject: Hardy's trip to Germany

I have a hard copy of Norm's 6 (?) part series on his trip to Germany.  I
thought there was some talk about extracting it and posting it to the
archives by itself.  Was this done?  It would be a good idea.

The series is great to read because (in my opinion) he doesn't clog it up
with too much description of tastes.  He describes the atmospheres of the
different establishments to give a nice overall view of the experience. 
Coupled with the homebrew hints, it makes a nice reference piece.  I really
hate discussions about wine where people describe mouth feels, tastes and
aftertastes that apparently never made it into my glass.

 -Craig Flowers
 An HBD subscriber since issue #444



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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 91 10:59:55 EDT
From: Chris Shenton <chris at asylum.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Can I forfeit the deposit and use the Busch keg?

Well, you can certainly forfeit the deposit :-)

We've got 3 `half kegs' (15 gallon) and a couple pony/quarter kegs (7
gallon). The deposit was $10, so it was easy to justify.

We've turned one into a barbecue grill (turn on it's side, cut longways --
it'll never rust like the overpriced Webers). The other, we cut a large
hole in the top and use it as a brew kettle. The third, we've figured how
to remove the valve so we can clean it, and are thinking of doing a 10
gallon strong batch, diluting to 15 gallons, and serving at a party.

To remove the valve, you remove the spring-clip, then just pull up the
valve; it's a little harder to get it back in, but a rubber mallet will
help. Your/our biggest problem will be fermenting 15 gallons (3 carboys?
an other keg?), but one guy I talked to just used a 15 gallon plastic
trashcan!

You can get the CO2-fired taps from Foxx -- I can't remember the cost, but
it's not too bad. I think you can do better than a $40 deposit, but if
you're going to be making a kettle out of it, it's still a hell of a lot
cheaper than buying a 10 gallon stainless pot from Rapids ($100).

WARNING: If you're making a kettle (or grill), cutting through the
stainless is a bitch. Forget jigsaws, and even a Sawzall doesn't cut 
(sorry :-) it. Use an abrasive wheel (like for concrete) and a circular saw.
It makes a *lot* of noise, too...

Ciao!

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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1991 11:28:36 EDT
From: Marc Rouleau <mer6g at fuggles.acc.Virginia.EDU>
Subject: Re: Long Term Effects

On Apr 24, 11:24am, microsoft!larryba at cs.washington.edu wrote:
> I find that all grain adds about 1.5 hours to my brew (4 hours
> start to finish)

Really?  Only 90 minutes extra?  Can you explain how much time
you spend

  (a) measuring
  (b) grinding
  (c) mashing
  (d) sparging

It takes me about 30 minutes to get everything measured and ground,
another 1-2 hours to mash, and an hour to sparge.  And that doesn't
include the extra half hour or so it takes me to bring the larger
quantity of wort to a boil.  What am I doing wrong?

While I'm talking, I'd like some advice on a problem I'm having with
extraction.  I've calibrated my thermometer against a fever thermometer.
I check pH at mash-in and at the start of the boil and adjust with
gypsum when necessary.  I'm careful to stir the mash pretty frequently
to equalize temperature.  I sparge with 160-168 degree water acidified
to pH 5.7 as recommended by Dave Miller in TCHOHB.  I let the mash go
on ridiculously long (also Miller), and I use the temperature ranges
specified in Miller's recipes.  The specific gravity at the end of
sparging is always very near 1.000.  Once it was even below.  Oh yeah,
my water is damn close to distilled:

 ->Calcium 11.2 (probably 16-17 from tap)
 ->Magnesium 1.3
 ->Sulphate 11.5
 ->Chloride 8.2
 ->Bicarbonate 17
 ->Carbonate 0
 ->Sodium 3.2
 ->Iron 0.06
 ->pH 6.85-7.2

The problem is that my extraction rate is about 75% of what Miller and
a number of you folks are getting.  The only reason I've come up with
is that I might be measuring specific gravity at a different point from
everyone else.

After the boil (I use 1/4 to 1/2 tsp Irish moss at the end for a good
hot break) I chill the wort to 70 degrees with an immersion chiller and
strain it into a big bucket.  The strainer catches virtually all of the
trub, several cups' worth I'd say.  I say "all" because there's never
more than a 3/8 inch layer in the bottom of the 6.5 gallon carboy I
use as a fermenter.  Then I add cold water to the bucket to bring the
quantity of chilled wort to a bit over five gallons.  I let it sit for
a while to let any remaining trub settle.  Then I let it drain noisily
from the spigot on the bucket into the fermenter, which already contains
the yeast.  When half of the wort has drained I capture a sample in
the SG measuring tube -- the SG of that is what I note as my original
gravity.

Using these methods, which are very close to Miller's (although he's
rather vague about measuring SG), I'm getting 26 points of SG per pound
of Klages (or English pale ale) instead of the 35 that Miller claims.

Any ideas?  Do I have to get Noonan's book and start decocting? :-)

    -- Marc Rouleau

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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 91 11:38:10 EDT
From: tighe at inmet.inmet.com (Michael Tighe)
Subject: 2-liter bottles


I have heard from releatively reliable sources (master of my brewing 
club) that the plastic 2-liter bottles which are used to contain 
carbonated beverages are not appropriate for storing alcoholic
beverages (such as home-brew).  The issue is that the alcohol causes 
some of the plastic bottle to be dissolved into the drink, making the
drink slightly poisonous.  I do know that there are various kinds of
plastics and that they are graded (classified) for their use in the 
food and beverage industry.  For instance, I have seen plastic bottles 
used for liquor (Scotch in a plastic bottle - how unasthetic!).

REMINDER: THIS IS ONLY A QUESTION!  I DON'T HAVE ANY FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE!

The reason I raise this question in this public forum and risk the 
nasty rumor business :-(  is that I've been reading "homebrew digest"
for a few months now, and I find the high level of intelligent discourse 
very pleasing.  (Apart from the usual "my pub's better than yours"  :-) 
discussions! - let me tell you about the ones in Boston!)

I am sure there are people on this network who have more knowledge than
I do about plastics and their interactions with alcohol, and I would
appreciate a summary or some pointers to reference material which will 
allow me to resolve this question for myself (and my brewing club).

Thanks in advance.
	
Michael Tighe
Intermetrics Microsystems Software Inc.
Cambridge, MA 02138 (USA)
email: tighe at inmet.inmet.com                  

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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 91 08:45:14 PDT
From: Mike.Tuciarone at Eng.Sun.COM (Michael J. Tuciarone)
Subject: Re:  Homebrew Digest #624 (April 26, 1991)

> From: krweiss at ucdavis.edu
> 
> I've got a batch of beer which ended up sitting in the
> secondary for a long time...Should I add fresh yeast before bottling,
> to ensure carbonation?

Nah. I made a pilsener that sat from Christmas to March, and not only did
it carbonate fine, it was the best beer I ever made. I just last weekend
bottled a brown ale that had been "resting" for six weeks, and it's
carbonating OK as well. (It also tastes really smooth and nice...I'm
beginning to notice a trend here. I wonder if my interpretation of the
data is correct :-)

Now I need to buy more carboys so I can age everything a couple of months
before bottling.

t

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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 91 12:10:52 -0500
From: zentner at ecn.purdue.edu (Michael Zentner)
Subject: Bass Pro Shops brewing stove

A few people asked me to post my experiences with my brewing stove from
Bass Pro Shops after I had a chance to play with it a little bit.  

It came 7 days from ordering, using a credit card.  Yesterday was the
first chance I had to get out and get a propane tank, hence the delay.
In appearance, it is quite comsmetic, since the whole thing is
stainless steel.  They do an amazing packing job getting it all to fit
in the box, so some assembly is required.  The assembly directions were
lousy, but it really doesn't take too much to figure out from the
schematic how things fit together.  The 3 gallon stainless steel pot
that comes with it is large diameter, thus somewhat "flat".
Everything is included except the propane tank.  You even get a hose
with valve and 50 psi regulator.

There are two heights for this thing, depending on whether you put on
the extender legs or not.  With the legs, the book says do not put more
than 50 lbs on it.  This translates to about 6 gallons of water, minus
the weight of your kettle.  I put on 5 gallons, and the thing still
felt very sturdy, like it could go at least 2 more gallons.  With just
the short legs, the book says 150 lbs is OK, which ought to be more
than sufficient (18 gal!) for most homebrewers.  

If you are expecting to buy one of these things to use in your kitchen,
I'd advise against it.  This is the second different "type" of high
output propane burner I've seen, and neither would I use indoors unless
VERY well ventilated.  The legs on the model I have do not get hot, so
burning your floor would not be a problem.  

I brought 5 gallons of water to boil (VERY strong rolling boil) in
about 35 minutes on a very low setting.  By very low, I mean the point
where the flames were just barely licking out from under the pot.
There certainly was a lot more heating ability if you turned the thing
up higher, as verified by opening up full throttle in the absence of a
pot.  I'm not sure I'm impatient enough to try it on a real pot,
though.  These things will leave some black soot on the bottom of the
pot, but that comes off of SS easily enough.  I wouldn't use it in your
favourite Calphalon stock pot, though :-).  Again, if you really want
to crank up the heat, you'll definitely have flames going up the sides
of your pot (it takes a good amount of fire for a 170,000 BTU burner).

And, as always, be safe with propane.  The lady at the store was sure
to remind me of the article in the paper that same day about the family
out camping who stored the tank in their tent, and did not wake up the
next day.

All in all, for me, I think it was a worthwhile investment.  I'll be
doing my boiling mostly in the evenings, either in the garage or the
back patio.

Mike Zentner, who feels like he better just mention the keywords
              "copper tubing" just for kicks :-).

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Date: 26 Apr 91 10:45:22
From: Rad Equipment <Rad_Equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: To A. Dietz

        Reply to:   To A. Dietz
I sent this direct via e-mail, but it bounced so I'm sending it to the digest. 
It applies to any visitors to California anyway.

Just contact me when the visit begins and I'll start you in the right
direction.  Once you get to SF, or CA for that matter, locate a California
Celebrator for local list of places to drink beer and get beer news.  I'd offer
to send a copy out in advance, but there isn't time.  There are several
"tastings" going on in SF on the weekend of the 4th of May which I can explain
better by voice.

Russ Wigglesworth (415) 474-8126 (h) 476-3668 (w)

Rad Equipment at RadMac1.ucsf.edu



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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 91 12:26:07 PDT
From: Doug Dreger <dreger at seismo.gps.caltech.edu>
Subject: LA BP's / Pitch yeast at Priming




On the Subject: Los Angeles Pubs
I agree about CrownCity. It is variable.

>When in Pasadena, get to the Loch Ness Monster Pub (north on Fair Oaks,
>I don't remember the address).
This is a good place to go.  It is now called something like the
Old Town Pub and is located on the northeast corner at
Fair Oaks and Union.  Another place to go is the John Bull located on
Fair Oaks (South of Del Mar).  This is a decent place with good food
and a different selection of beer than the Old Town Pub, featuring ESB
Newcastle, Devonish, Fullers and a special ale that changes from time to
time.

On the Subject: bottling after long period in secondary

I often lager my beer and found that it does take longer to carbonate
if you don't pitch a yeast to prime.  I added yeast once at priming at it
noticibly changed the character of the beer.  To a friend that brews lagers
I recommended not adding the yeast and patiently wait.  After a month the
beer was very nicely carbonated and had the character it had at bottling.
As for myself I now keg all of my beer and force prime it.  The long lagering
period is especially nice in that there no sediment droping out after the
beer is kegged.

 -Doug

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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 91 13:28:43 -0600
From: Jon Binkley <binkley at beagle.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: more alcoholism BS


I've been trying my hardest to stay out of this- I don't feel this
is the proper forum for this kind of discussion; but I couldn't
let this pass without venting my spleen:

In HBD#624, Scott Welker wrote:
>If a person says they're
>irritated by friend's warnings, this is a clear signal of alcoholism.
>Worse--most alcoholics deny their problems (much less their illness).

Great.  And if a man denys beating his wife, that's a clear sign of
wife beating.  And if you deny being a witch from Salem, well, stoke
up that kindelin', Wilbur, we got oursel's another one!!

Oh great Powers That Be, save us from lawyers, statisticians, and
first-year medical students.

Jon Binkley
binkley at boulder.colorado.edu

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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 91 14:07:56 EDT
From: perley at easygoer.crd.ge.com (Donald P Perley)
Subject: Self fulfilled Alcoholism

Scott Welker, Uniformed Services University Med School writes:
>In HBD 623, James Zuniga (ZIGGY) Writes:
>>        WHAT IS ALCOHOLISM?
>>                1) CAN'T CONTROL THE AMOUNT HE OR SHE DRINKS
>>                2) FAILS TO YIELD WARNINGS OF FRIENDS AND FAMILY ABOUT HIS OR
>>                   DRINKING
>>                3) ALLOWS ALCOHOL TO BECOME MORE IMPORTANT THAN HIS OR HER
>>                   COMMITMENTS

>Most people are unaware (or unwilling to admit) these effects are occurring;
>that's why it's important for friends to be bold enough to let someone
>know they appear to have a problem.  Alcohol, you see, can dull your
>perception of the things on my list; so #2 on Ziggy's list is everyone's
>responsibility to those they care about.  If a person says they're
>irritated by friend's warnings, this is a clear signal of alcoholism.
>Worse--most alcoholics deny their problems (much less their illness).
>So be careful...we all love beer, but we're playing with fire.

You should beware of circular reasoning here.  Say someone has 1 beer
per week.  Some well meaning Temperance Union zealot tells him he has
a problem.  He says "Get stuffed!  One beer per week is NOT
excessive!"

Now the poor sot is rejecting suggestion of a problem.  Plus, in the
eyes of some, he drinks excessively.  To top it off, he can't control
his drinking (actually, he is not willing to change his habits just to
please some whacko who really thinks ANY alcohol is immoral).

While a "true" alcoholic may practice denial, isn't that 
a REASONABLE action for a non-alchohic?  In short, while you should
recognize the tendency to deny a problem, denial itself isn't an 
indicator of the problem.

 -don perley




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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 91 17:29:40 PDT
From: Rick.Goldberg at Corp.Sun.COM (Rick Goldberg - demo guy)
Subject: Re: Kegs (Toufic Boubez)

Dude,
If the keg and apparatus are CO2 go ahead. If its the hand pump variety,
forget it you are just asking the dormant bacteria to start breathing.
Also, you may find it difficult to clean and fill. Some companies like
Hamms (I think, maybe Old Mil) have a rubber removeable bung that can be
removed with a cork screw and replaced at a buck a shot.

I just sank $70 (probably a bit steep) in a party ball plus CO2 cartrige
tap plus adapter set up; It actually pays for itself in a couple of 
brews if I rate myself at $5/hour for cleaning and filling, since the whole 
process takes less than 20 minutes. And it holds upto 5 gallons which is
a typical batch.
I just do a second ferment in the beer sphere and let it sit for about 
two weeks for flavor. The pressure usually lasts for a couple of drinking
sessions, then I have the option of either adding more sugar and waiting over
night, or injecting 8 grammes of CO2 vi cartridge through the tap (made by
EDME). I'm pretty satisfied with it except that my first batch had a
Lactobasilus (sp?) infection halfway through due no doubt to opening and
closing while trying to figure out the right way to screw on the damn
adapter.

None the less its a neat idea, so if you were inclined to forfeit $40 for
a heavy metal keg plus I-don't-know-how-much for the CO2 tank, regulator,
adaptor and tap, you might want to look into the Beer Sphere setup instead.
The only place I know of that supports its distribution is The Fermentation
Settlemet in Saratoga, California (they should pay me grain for advertisment
now!)

Have a blast, man.

Rick Goldberg
rmgold at buddah.Corp.Sun.Com
TSE Sun Microsystems Corporate Demo Center


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #625, 04/29/91
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