---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Beer in plastic bottles. (nobody)
  Beer in plastic bottles.
  Pale Bock yeast?
  glassware and england (Jim Culbert)
  Repitching (Bill Thacker)
  Re: Small batches, beer spheres, brewpubs (Chris Shenton)
  HB Digest No. 627 ("John E. Lenz")
  repitching from secondary, ferment times (krweiss)
  More fun in Pasadena! (Ron Rader)
  wyeast Bavarian wheat beer yeast(s) (Marty Albini)
  Fast fermentations, oats ("Eric Roe")
  Cheap sparger (csswingley)
  Brew Free or Die Homebrew Club of New Hampshire (Brew Free or Die!  01-May-1991 1444)
  Cheapest extract... (Walter H. Gude)
  State Bill (Brian D. Moore)
  Re: Four hour brews... (larryba)
  Alcoholism again (S94WELKE)
  Hunter Energy Monitor (Keith Winter)
  Re: should it take 16 days in the fermentor? (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Miller on special malts (Kenneth R. van Wyk)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmi at hplabs.hp.com
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Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 May 91 04:23:48 -0400
From: nobody at Kodak.COM
Subject: Beer in plastic bottles.
Full-Name: 

Date: 05/01/91 04:27:58
To: homebrew%hpfcmr at hplabs.hpl.hp.com

>From: Richard von Blucher
Subject: Beer in plastic bottles.

Hello fellow brewers.

I've been quiet about this beer in plastic bottles thing because I felt that
someone with more experience than I would interject, but I just have to open
my big mouth. I'll just add one data point about beer in plastic.

I'm 6 months into an 18 month assignment in London. With all those pubs, why
should I be concerned about beer in plastic bottles, you ask. Well, I do have
to shop for groceries and so have perused the beer section at my local
supermarket (a Safeway of all things!). British beer is available in 2, 2.5,
and 3 liter amber plastic bottles. The plastic looks very similar in color to
that used for the Matt's Party Ball, but the beer is much better :-). The
bottles are typically labelled with a Best Before Date about 3 months in the
future (of when I find them in the Safeway). Several brands are available, my
favorite being the Samuel Smith's Old Brewery Bitter in the convenient 2 liter
bottle. Costs about 3 pound, versus about 1 pound 60 pence per pint (20oz.) at
the few Samuel Smith tied houses I know of.

So, other than bragging about having so much beer to choose from, what does
all this mean? Well, the beer seems to keep pressure for months in proper
plastic bottles, proper plastics do exist, and some very good beer is put into
them.I won't mention Matt's anymore :-).

Personally, if I ever run out of new pubs and beers to try, I plan to bottle
in used plastic beer bottles. But with only about 12 months left to go, I
don't have much chance of running out of new adventures!

Oh, and they sell homebrewing supplies at the local Boots, the Chemist.

Cheers!

Richard G. von Blucher
Eastman Kodak, Rochester Technology Center/European Region Office
Knet: (65) 55695  KMX: 65-55695  Normal: (44) 071-748-7979 x 55695
Email: rgvb at kodak.com

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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 91 13:26:31 PDT
From: dannet!bruce at uunet.UU.NET (Bruce Hill)

Subject: Pale Bock yeast?

Greetings!

   I just got back from spending a week in Ft. Collins, Colorado at
Hewlett-Packard trying to port our device driver to the new HP 9000 Series 700.
My technical support person was none other than our very own Homebrew Digest
coordinator, Rob Gardener!  Unfortunately I did not get a chance to taste his
"Hacker Brew", but I did get around to all of the Brewpubs in Ft. Collins.

I picked up an assortment of microbrew at this HUGE liquor store in Boulder and
one of the brews I brought back was Sierra Neveda "Pale Bock".  It says on the 
label that it is "Bottom-Fermented", so I am assuming that the yeast they used
is a Lager yeast and is different from the "Chico Ale" yeast that they use in
all of their other Ale-type brews.  Does anyone out there know what variety of
yeast they used?  There seems to be some yeast in the bottle, so I am going 
to try to make a culture from it.  Hopefully, I will be able to get a culture
from this and be able to make a "Steam" beer.  Is a Bottom-Fermented Pale Bock
the same type of style as the trademarked "Steam" beer from Anchor Brewing?

Thanks......

Bruce Hill

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Date: Wed, 1 May 91 08:51:17 EDT
From: Jim Culbert <culbert at iesl-b.mit.edu>
Subject: glassware and england


Two questions for the gallery:

1) The talk about glassware and the recent addition of "yards" to the
Cambridge Brewery's serving menu got me wondering again, "where can
one get these yard glass things"? Anyone know? I'd particularly like to get my
hands on a few half yards as they are a little more wieldly. Yards
would be a fun way to serve up homebrew to friends! (and myself)

2) I'm going to be in England for three weeks at the beginning of June. 
I'd like to include a few brewery tours. Can anyone recommend some 
"must-see's" ?


	Thanks,
		
		-Jim

===========================================================================
> Jim Culbert                                                             <
> M.I.T Intelligent Engineering Systems Laboratory                        <
> Room 1-270                                                              <
> Cambridge, Ma. 02139.                                                   <
>									  <
> Phone 253-7134                                                          <
> e-mail: culbert at iesl.mit.edu                                            <
===========================================================================
* 	    When cows laugh does milk come out their nose?                *
===========================================================================

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Date: Wed, 1 May 91 9:18:03 EDT
From: Bill Thacker <hplabs!hp-lsd.cos.hp.com!cbema!wbt>
Subject: Repitching

Jay Hersh wrote:

>fermentation rates are batch size independent, Think about this, otherwise it
>would take places like Anchor N times longer to produce a batch than a 5 gallon
>homebrewer, where N is the ratio of their batch size to the homebrewers.

Another way to look at this is, "How does the yeast know if the little bit
of brew it's sitting in is surrounded by one gallon or a million ?"

However, it is worth noting that for those of us whos fermentation
temperature is at the mercy of our household thermostats, large batches
will take longer to adjust temperature to match the surroundings, so will
be less sensitive to periodic fluctuations in room temperature.  This can
affect fermentation rates, but unless your fluctuations are really extreme,
I wouldn't think the amount would be great.

> To Bill Thacker, 
> primary yeast is much better than secondary yeast. It tends to
> be more vigorous, since it has been dormant for a shorter period. Most
> everything I've seen on repitching says use yeast fromn the  primary...

Now you've got me confused.  "From primary" to me would mean getting some
yeast out of the primary fermenter (obviously requiring that you have
another batch working when you bottle the first).  I'd agree that the yeast
there is more "awake."

The article I was replying was (I *thought*) about throwing in a fresh
package of yeast at bottling time.  In this case, I'd argue that the yeast
from secondary would be a better choice.  It didn't just get thawed or
rehydrated, for one thing.  For another, we're constantly told to aerate
the wort before pitching yeast to provide enough oxygen for reproduction, 
but you definitely don't want to aerate at bottling time.  
 
John E. Lenz wrote:
 
> Bill Thacker asks about using the yeast drop from the secondary in lieu of
> pitching fresh yeast when bottling.
> 
> Seems like a reasonable approach, why don't you give it a try and let us
> know how it works out.

I have, actually.  The last batch we brewed was a porter, and we didn't get
around to bottling it until it had been in the secondary for about 4 weeks.
(We had racked off the primary as soon as fermentation was done, knowing it
would be a while until we could bottle.)   Our previous batch had seemed a
bit slow in carbonating, so we kicked up a little bit (*) of the yeast in the
bottom of the secondary while siphoning into the bottling bucket.  It did
carbonate a bit quicker -- about a week and a half -- but based on one
batch, I certainly can't claim that the theory is proved. 

(*) - about a quarter cup of the "cake."  Which brings up a question.  I've
heard of the dangers of yeast autolysis in fermentation, but what about
bottling ?  Will an "excessive amout" (?) of yeast autolyze in the bottle ?
I certainly don't want my yeast driving around in little autos, burning up
all the alcohol and polluting my beer with exhaust fumes ! 8-)
 
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker	AT&T Network Systems - Columbus      wbt at cbnews.att.com



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Date: Wed, 1 May 91 10:14:06 EDT
From: Chris Shenton <chris at asylum.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Small batches, beer spheres, brewpubs

On Tue, 30 Apr 91 21:49 CST, <SU0751A%DRAKE.BITNET at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> said:

Sterling> Re: A source for beer spheres

Sterling> A company called Marc C. Fritz,
Sterling> Inc., in Potsdam, NY, sells what they call a Batch Latch system
Sterling> for reusing party balls as homebrew kegs.  Prices for different
Sterling> systems range from $29.95 to $185.00

Geez, for $185 (or less, maybe) you can get a complete soda-keg and CO2
tank setup (from Foxx or from American Brewmaster, maybe others). Just a
keg will set you back about $30. My 5# CO2 cylinders lasted about 6 months,
and may last another at the rate of about 20 gallons/month.

This beer-ball thing seems too expensive to me.

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Date:         Wed, 01 May 91 09:55:50 EDT
From: "John E. Lenz" <JELJ at CORNELLA.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:      HB Digest No. 627

Chip Hitchcock writes about his doppelbock which has a wonderful head after
only a week in the bottle.

I'd monitor this pretty closely, I had an all-grain Maerzen which was of a
similar nature after a week in the bottle.  Unfortunately, after 3 to 4
weeks in the bottle the stuff was damn near unmanageable in that it produced
a pitcher full of head with very little liquid left at the bottom when it
was poured.  For those of you who are thinking "Aha, an infected batch," I
don't think so, I still have a bunch of this stuff (now 2 years old) and once
the head turns back into beer it is quite tasty.  Turns out that it wasn't
fully fermented when bottled (after about a 2-3 week primary and a 2-month
cold lagering) and dropped about 7 points !! in the bottle.  Needless to say,
I've since become quite conservative in my priming.


Ken Johnson asks about the effects of temperature on extraction rates.

There is definitely a relationship here.  According to my calculations your
70 degree C mash temperature is 158 degrees F.  Mashing at this high a temp.
will produce a very dextrinous wort, in a relatively short time to boot.  I
have read that mashing at 150 degrees F is generally believed to produce
a very well-balanced (in terms of dextrins v.s. fermentables) wort.  Mashing
below 150 degrees F will produce a lot of fermentables at the expense of
dextrins, and will take much longer to convert.  I generally try to maintain
a mash temp. of about 150-152 F, 2-3 degrees higher if I want some residual
sweetness in my beer.  My extraction rates aren't on the order of those
which Miller gets, but I usually get about 38-30 points per pound per gallon
which I find quite acceptable.

mbharrington at UCSD.EDU writes about his batch which has been 16 days in the
fermenter, and seems to want to speed things up.

I'd say you might be better off simply waiting for things to proceed at their
own pace.  Within reasonable limits you might try warmer fermentation
temperatures, though you will likely get increased ester production (not too
desirable in a lager).

mbharrington also asks about taking samples out of the carboy for hydrometer
readings.

I have a rather large plastic "wine thief" which I use.  It is a 3-piece thing
which is easily sanitized in bleach solution.  I usually have to draw out
two portions of beer with it to get enough for a reading.  A lot of homebrew
suppliers sell these things, and also some made of glass.  The glass ones are
really too small to be of much practical use, at least the ones I've seen.

Cheers,

Dr. John

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Date: Wed, 1 May 91 08:22:40 -0700
From: krweiss at ucdavis.edu
Subject: repitching from secondary, ferment times

Kieran O'Conner (known Mac user) writes:

>My apartment is about 75F 
>constantly, and sometimes gets to 80F.  Here's the question:  when I 
>pitch, the fermenter bubbles for no more than 2 days--max.  When I 
>move it to the secondary, no more bubbling occurs.
>
>What am I doing wrong?  Most literature I've read here and in the 
>brewing books talks about 7 days--whats up?  BTW, the first two batchs 
>ended up with ending gravities of about 1010, and starting gravs about 
>1042, so it is fermenting.  The first batch tasted ok.

The drop in S.G. tells the story... You're not doing anything wrong. Warmer
ferments go faster. I'll bet you're using dry yeast, too, which takes off
very rapidly, as a rule. Stick with ale yeasts, and heartier recipes that
will cover some of the esters and potential off flavors from a warm
ferment, and enjoy.

>
>Second quick one--would taking a gravity measure with the scum from 
>the bottom of the bucket, i.e. mostly yeast, be comnpletely 
>inaccurate.  I havent done this, but was wondering.

Yes, it would be inaccurate. If the S.G. of the stuff at the bottom was the
same as the S.G. of the stuff at the top, it wouldn't settle out. Consider
an extreme case, like a mixture of oil and vinegar...


Bill Thacker asks about reusing yeast from the secondary fermentor.

I have done this three times now, with very good results. I brew and bottle
on the same day. While the new beer is in the boil, I bottle the previous
batch. Then I swirl up the sediment from the secondary fermentor and use it
to pitch the new beer. The biggest problem I've had is the resulting
acceleration of my brewing schedule, and deceleration of the rest of my
life, as I try to drink the beer faster than I'm producing it...


Ken Weiss
Manager of Instruction
Computing Services
U.C. Davis
Davis, CA 95616

916/752-5554
krweiss at ucdavis.edu


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Date: Wed, 1 May 91 11:09:29 EDT
From: rlr at bbt.com (Ron Rader)
Subject: More fun in Pasadena!

  To all the folks who replied to my post regarding pubs in Pasadena, CA,
thanks!  I'm very VERY sorry I forgot all about the John Bull, I would
definitely recommend it to anyone going to the area.  Fair warning:  if you
want to kick back and relax at the John Bull or the Loch Ness Monster (did
the name actually change?) DON'T go on a weekend night.  Late weekday evenings
are bad for relaxing as well.  You see, the John Bull is faithfully frequented
by the South Pasadena rich suburban kids, and it gets pretty loud and rowdy
at times.  It's still fun, but not if you want quiet reflection.  Ah, growing
up in L.A. ...

  The John Bull is definitely on S. Fair Oaks (~6 blocks south of Del Mar),
and definitely catty-corner from Gerlach's Liquors.  I'd tell you the name of
the cross street, I can vividly see it in my mind's eye, but I can't remember
the name.

  The Doo Dah Parade definitely started at the Loch Ness Monster.

- -- 
ron rader, jr  rlr at bbt.com OR ...!mcnc!bbt!rlr = Opinions are my own and do
| |  i gotta six-pack & nothing to do...       = not necessarily reflect those
 | | i gotta six-pack & i don't need you       = of BroadBand Tech. (SO THERE!)
  *** Punk ain't no religious cult, punk means thinking for yourself - DKs ***

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Date: Wed, 1 May 91 9:13:57 PDT
From: Marty Albini <martya at sdd.hp.com>
Subject: wyeast Bavarian wheat beer yeast(s)

> From: "John E. Lenz" <JELJ at CORNELLA.cit.cornell.edu>
> 
> Lastly, do any of you have any experience with the Wyeast Bavarian Wheat
> yeast culture?  I'd like to know what the lower end of the temperature
> range at which this one will actively ferment is.

	It's actually two yeasts: S. Delbruckii (the estery
one) and a top fermenting ale yeast (the boring one). If you
fool with temperature, you will favor one over the other. My
own experience indicates that lower temperatures will favor
the ale yeast, making the clove aroma characteristic of wheat
beers disappear.

	The reason they mix yeasts is that they were afraid
the pure S. Delbruckii would be too intense for most people.
Mixing yeasts seems like a poor approach to me; I would rather
ferment down to some level of gravity and change yeasts, but
then I'm a fanatic.

	Pure strains of S. Delbruckii are available from 

	MeV
	PO Box 123
	Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
	N2J 3Z9
	(519) 742-7227

	There's also an outfit in Tennessee that stocks it,
but my order is two weeks old now, and still no yeast, so I
hesitate to recommend them.

	Wyeast will sell you a package of pure S. Delbruckii,
but this is not a retail product; they sell it to brewpubs and
the like. They quoted me $14 for one packet!

	Go ahead and try the Wyeast; I've had excellent wheat
beers made with it (as well as bland beers with little
detectable wheat character), so I know it's possible. The
straight stuff is proving almost as hard to *get* as it was to
*find*.
- --
________________________________________________Marty Albini___________
"He that will an ale-house keep must have these things in store: a
cham-ber and a fea-ther-bed, a chim-ney and a Hey, no-ney no-ney Hey 
no-ney no-ney, hey no-ney-no! Hey no-ney-no, hey no-ney-no!." --Thomas
Ravenscroft
phone    : (619) 592-4177 
UUCP     : {hplabs|nosc|hpfcla|ucsd}!hp-sdd!martya 
Internet : martya at sdd.hp.com (or  at nosc.mil,  at ucsd.edu) 
US mail  : Hewlett-Packard Co., 16399 W. Bernardo Drive, San Diego CA 92127-1899 USA

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Date:    Wed, 1 May 91 13:32 EDT
From: "Eric Roe" <KXR11 at PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Fast fermentations, oats

In HBD #627, Brian Bliss writes:

>I started a batch last tuesday, and it was practically done
>fermenting thursday night.  I gave it until saturday to
>settle, racked it to a secondary, and then bottled it last
>(monday night).  by tomorrow it should be carbonated and
>ready to drink.  8 days total.  Anybody know of anything faster?
>(P.S. I've only tried thried this with munton & fison ale yeast
> - perhaps that has something to do with it)

Munton & Fison is indeed a speedy yeast.  I was really surprised
the first time I used the stuff.  At 60 degrees, it fermented a
stout out in 5 days -- done, kaput, not another glub out of it.  My
previous experience with Whitbred dry ale yeast is very different.
At the same temperature I've had the Whitbred continue fermenting
for over three weeks.


Also, regarding the use of oatmeal.

>I started with 42 oz. oatmeal, and probably threw 75%
>or it down the drain, getting about 2 gallons of the finer
>particles in the boil.  Same basic recipe as above,
>with only 2 cans of malt extract, no dry.  initial S.G. 1.053,
>final S.G. 1.027.  There was 5 inches of oatmeal sediment
>in the bottom of the fermenter - it all settled out.
>Perhaps one needs to start with cracked oats, not oatmeal.

You've got to mash oats otherwise none of the starches will
convert.  If you just boil the stuff, all you get is goo.
Steel cut oats will work best.  If you decide to try it: 1) don't
use much more than a pound of oats and 2) be aware that oats are
very sticky -- it's quite easy to get a stuck run-off.


                                         Eric Roe
                                    <kxr11 at psuvm.psu.edu>

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Date: Wed, 1 May 91 10:57:18 PDT
From: csswingley at ucdavis.edu
Subject: Cheap sparger

Howdy,
	Just thought I'd pass along my cheap sparger idea.  Being a
graduate student and homebrewer often come in conflict due to the expense
of the hobby.  I had wanted to try an all-grain recipie, but didn't
want to spend the money (typical for me) to get all the equipment.
	The sparger I now use is made out of an old Culligan 5-gallon
water jug.  One can go to a Culligan water distribution center and
buy "defective" water jugs for 50 cents.  All I did to convert it to
a sparger was cut the top off, cut a hole in the bottom, and attach a
piece of plastic pipe to the bottom.  A simple plug serves to stop
the flow of liquor when more water needs to be added.  I suppose a spigot
could also be used, but the plastic pipe pieces I used were very cheap,
and serve the purpose well.
	The only dificulty in converting the water jug is cutting it
up.  I don't have any tools save an electric drill, so I had to drill
umpteen holes and crack the top off.  Perhaps a hack saw or pipe saw
would work more quickly, I don't know.
	Anyhow, just thought I'd pass the idea along for those who
want to try all-grain brewing (an hour and a half!!) but don't want
to buy several buckets and all the stuff Burch recommends in Brewing
Quality Beer.  I should also add that cheesecloth does not serve wel
as the sparge bag that holds the grains--the cheesecloth just fills
with grain and plugs up the pipe at the bottom.  Nylon is really the
only thing I've found that works.
	
	Also, any advice on brewing during the summer?  It gets pretty`
damn hot out here in central Ca over the summer.  Burch recommends a
water jacket to cool the fermenting beer.  Any other ideas?  Does the
water jacket idea work?  Let me know.  Thanks.
	Adios.
- --Chris Swingley	csswingley at ucdavis.edu

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Date: Wed, 1 May 91 11:48:37 PDT
From: Brew Free or Die! 01-May-1991 1444 <hall at buffa.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Brew Free or Die Homebrew Club of New Hampshire

    Here's a reminder/pointer to anyone interested in being a member
    of a homebrew club in the southern NH/northeastern Mass area.
    
    The club that started at a brewer's home in Pembroke, NH some months
    ago has really gotten off the ground.  We call ourselves the Brew Free
    or Die Homebrew Club of NH.  We meet from 3-6 PM on the second Saturday
    of the month on the 3rd floor of the building that houses Masi Plumbing
    and Heating Supply and The Grainery Restaurant, at 36 Otterson Street
    in Nashua, NH.  This location is fairly central for both NH and Mass
    brewers, and it is offered gratis by one of our members and our
    \berbra|meister, Ed Boisvert (made famous recently in an article about
    home brewing and Jasper's Home Brew Supply printed in the Nashua Telegraph
    and another in the Manchester Union Leader).  There is a large meeting
    room, several small rooms (one with a fridge), and a bathroom.  All the
    conveniences of somebody else's home.  8^)
    
    We've already gotten a logo designed (shows the Old Man of the
    Mountains hoisting a frosty mug), and will be printing up T-shirts
    both for ourselves and to sell at a table we have reserved at the AHA
    conference in Manchester.  Dues are $10/year, and $2/meeting, which
    will be used for mailings, and put towards possible club trips,
    holiday dinners, or a summer barbecue.
    
    So far, we've got about 20 regular members, with a fair mix of men and
    women, and several all-grain brewers.  We've been in contact with the AHA
    regularly, and in fact, Charlie Papazian has agreed to speak at Ed's
    Rotary meeting, and several club members will be in attendance.  I invite
    anybody interested in joining the club to get in touch with me.  Your
    friends are welcome too.  The more members, the merrier.  We are a *very*
    informal club.  I will scan and email the first three newsletters and a
    map to anyone who requests. 

    The next meeting is May 11 at 3 PM, and if you're interested, the Beer
    of the Meeting is Brown Ale, though any beer is welcome, including
    commercial products.  Last time, someone brought Catamount's new
    Ethan Allen Ale.  Now I know I don't need to waste my money.  IMRHO,
    the first bad product Catamount has produced, and they did it in a big
    way - truely wretched!

    See you there!

    -Dan

  =_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=
  Dan Hall                        | Digital Services / Network Connectivity
  Digital Equipment Corporation   | ARPAnet: hall at buffa.enet.dec.com
  Digital Drive                   | EASYnet: BUFFA::HALL
  MS MKO1-2/H10, PO Box 9501      | Usenet : ....!decwrl!buffa.dec.com!hall
  Merrimack, NH  03054-9501       | NET    : (603) 884-5879
  =_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=

Disclaimer:  My employer doesn't drink beer.

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Date: Wed, 1 May 91 12:53:14 CDT
From: whg at tellab5.tellabs.COM (Walter H. Gude)
Subject: Cheapest extract...


  The cheapest extract in my limited experience is Yellow Dog Malt Extract. 
The sole source is from the Home Brewery 1-800-321-BREW, its approximately
$8.50 for four pounds.  Yellow Dog is made for the Home Brewery by 
Alexander's.  By the way, the Home Brewery seems to have good prices on all
extracts.

Walter


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Date: Wed, 1 May 91 15:28:30 CDT
From: Brian D. Moore <bemo at spacsun.rice.edu>
Subject: State Bill


     Here in Texas, it is currently illegal to operate a brewpub.  However,
there is currently legislation to allow microbreweries to operate (defined
to be production < 75,000 barrels, a limit I do not exceed -- yet).  Debate
is ongoing, so I ask: in my letter to my representative, what arguments
should I include? My local supplier suggests tourism, but I cannot back
this up with any facts.  Is local color enough of an argument for passage?
Too bad the NRA doesn't have any vested interest; it would pass in a
heartbeat.
                                                    -- bemo

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Date: Wed May 01 11:53:21 1991
From: microsoft!larryba at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Re: Four hour brews...

Ok, so there is some doubt about my claims.  Well perhaps I slipped a few
minutes here and there...  This is the letter I sent to Marc.  My
appologies for the length, in advance.

I get my grain measured and crushed at the local supplier.  I bought a
grain card so all I do is walk in with my recipe and walk out with a sack
o grain 5 minutes later.  I guess I don't count this in the brew time...
I do a loose rendition of single step infusion mash and typically
get 105% efficiency compared to miller.  Conversion at 150deg takes about
1/2 hour - but I let it go for 1 hour.  I sparge with 175deg water. I use
a mash/sparge bucket with a home made screen on the bottom (polycarbonate
laboriously hand drilled) and an insulite wrap. I overlap starting the
boil with sparging ( spage into the boiler, on the heat) I use a
counterflow chiller and it takes about 8 minutes to chill 5.5. gal.

I don't have much fine control over the process, however simplicity makes
the process quick.  The resulting beers are pretty consistent. I am happy
just to be able to calculate IBU's and control that aspect with
confidence.  Use of carmel malt or other high kilned malts (munich, etc)
seem to make the biggest difference in the quality of the brew.  If I
were a micro brewery and wanted to use dirt cheap klages for the bulk of
my brews, then fine control over mashing technique would be more
important. I am certain that I will get more anal about the process as my
skills and tastes improve.  Below is a log of a brown lager I made this
weekend:

11:00am start heating 8.5qt water + 2 tsp burton salts (Seattle water is soft)
        Fill carboy, racking tube, chiller with bleach solution (2oz/6gal)
11:30   water  at  172deg, put in bucket, measured at 170
        mash in at 145deg (6lb Pale Ale, 8oz Xtal, 4oz Chocolote)
11:45   Mash stabilised at 150, start heating ~4 gal of sparge water.
11:50   Add 1qt of boiling water to mash, bring temp back to 150??
        Periodically recirculate 2 qts of wort and check with iodine.
12:30   Conversion done (mash temp still around 150)  Start sparging.
12:50   Boil Heat on at around 3 gal of sparge
 1:10   Sparge Done.  Add 1qt of water to bring total to 6 gal
 1:40   Boil started, mash bucket & kitchen cleaned
 1:55   pitch hops (16 grams of Chinook - ~7aau) start draining carboy/chiller
 2:40   Heat off, pitch 1oz of Cascades, swirl hard. final rinse of carboy.
 2:50   Chilling done, wort at 60deg, pitch yeast, SG = .043
 3:00pm Carboy wrapped and in refer, boiler cleaned, wort chiller rinsed.

There was some fooling around so my mash water was about 5 deg hotter
than usual.  I was trying to mash at 160, but goofed.  I still don't know
what went wrong.

P.S.

The reason I wanted to mash at 160 is due to the highly attenuative yeast
I got from a local microbrewery.  163 is the temp they mash at in order
to get decent body.  I have brewed with Klages using the above technique
and obtained essentially identical results (klages tends to be more
fermentable).  I use a hot water heater fire ring to preheat my water.
Another technique is to simply crank the temperature of your hot water
tank to 180-190 the night before brewing (and all through the house...) I
use pellet hops. I don't worry too much about bleach in my beer.  I toss
the first pint or so from the wort chiller before turning on the cold
water.  I let the chilled beer splash into the carboy.  For an ale I
chill to 75 deg, for the lager I chilled to 60.  I make extensive use of
gravity to speed the chilling.  I put the kettle on a bucket on the
counter and the carboy on the floor.  The sparge bucket also goes on top
of a bucket so I can sparge directly into the kettle.  I use a tube on
the spigot so I don't splash the wort into the kettle. Aside from
preheat, everything is done on my electric stovetop.  Because I overlap
so much stuff, I find the four hours to be pretty busy.  Usually I have a
half hour to eat lunch between the hops pitch and the final rinse of the
carboy.  The bleach takes that long to drain because there is essentially
no head between the carboy and the sink.

There, I have told all.  The lager was my 7th brew since switching to grain.
I hope this answers all your questions...  For additional details send mail
direct to me.  Thanks.


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Date: Wed, 1 May 91 16:51:30 CDT
From: bradley at dehn.math.nwu.edu (R. Bradley)

OK, OK.  625 is 5 to the 4th power.  Had to be one of those positive 
integers, didn't it? This is all further indication that a mathematician
doesn't need to be any good with arithmetic (there's always some student
in the class who'll correct it for you).

What I really wnat to find out about is diacetyl and other unpleasant
by-products.

During the course of some 160 or so batches in my Toronto years, I had
three significant flops.  They all had an off-taste I referred to in
my log book as "clinical".  It reminded me of that antiseptic/solvent
smell you notice in hospitals, clinics and doctors' offices.  The first
two I was foolhardy enough to bottle and pray, but they never got 
appreciably better.  The third one I pitched out; it also had a
strong banana aroma, which I seem to recall hearing about in the HBD
about a year ago.  BTW, that last one was an experiment with lots
of flaked rice, and a dried lager yeast with room temperature fermentation.

I had heard about diacetyl here and there, but the term "butterscotch" was
frequently used.

Fast forward to December 1990 in Evanston.  I had a batch of pale ale,
bottled less than two weeks from brew-up, with and unmistakeable
"butterscotch" nose and palate.  Strong, even over-powering, but not
entirely unpleasant.  I even kind of liked it.  Kind of, and only one
at a time.  After about a week in the bottle, the old "clinical" 
flavour started to develop, so I put it all into the fridge, and
nothing much changed from then on.

So I'm beginning to think that "clinical" is just what happens to
diacetyl after long aging.  Either it actually mutates chemically,
or it's just a scondary characteristic that develops with time.

About two months later another batch of pale ale, almost identical
to the December batch.  At two weeks it's showing only "clinical",
and strongly so.

So here's where the tinkering begins.  Diacetyl is an intermediate
product, right, somewhere between the C6H12O6 and the C2H5OH that's
supposed to get produced and consumed, right?  Trace amounts are
normal, large amounts an indication of unhealthy fermentation, right?
So I throw the whole mess back into a primary with a pound of dextrose
dissolved in water, a vigourous oxygenation and a new pitch of
dried yeast (M&F, same as I'd started it with).  A new fermentation
got going, sure enough, but the results four days later were no
more or less "clinical" than they'd started out being.

Oh, well, chalk up another one to empirical science.  :-)  I flushed
the whole batch away.

3 bad batches in 160 isn't too bad.  2 out of a dozen is awful.
A few months back, someone suggested the following way to get rid
of trub: pitch the yeast into a primary with trub and all, rack
12-24 hours later when the trub has settled and the anaerobic has
yet to begin.  I tried it three times: the first with great success,
the latter two being the above-mentioned batches.  You can bet I
won't be trying that trick again.

So, answers and/or opinions, please.  Is the "clinical" thing
mature diacetyl, or something diacetyl turns into?  Is this
kooky method of racking after (typically) 16 hours likely to
cause diacetyl problems?  Could the whole thing be explained
by infection?

BTW, which issue number will be the next prime power?

Rob
(bradley at math.nwu.edu)

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Date:     Wed, 1 May 91 10:42 EST
From: <S94WELKE%USUHSB.BITNET at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject:  Alcoholism again

In HBD #625, Don Perley writes:
>You should beware of circular reasoning here.  Say someone has 1 beer
>per week.  Some well meaning Temperance Union zealot tells him he has
>a problem.  He says "Get stuffed!  One beer per week is NOT
>excessive!"
I suggested that a FRIEND's warning should be heeded.  There aren't any
Temperance Union zealots on my Christmas card list!  But if a person
whose opinion I generally respect tells me I drink too much, I'll
listen.  I don't give a damn for the "drinking is immoral" crowd.  Does
anyone in this audience?  It's not circualr if you consider the source.

>Now the poor sot is rejecting suggestion of a problem.  Plus, in the
>eyes of some, he drinks excessively.  To top it off, he can't control
>his drinking (actually, he is not willing to change his habits just to
>please some whacko who really thinks ANY alcohol is immoral).
Those criteria I listed in HBD #623 are what the military uses to find
problem drinkers--do they sound reasonable to you?  Anyone whose life,
family, job, and health have crumbled has problems, if you ask me.
There are no acceptable criteria for a specific volume being "too much."
One beer a week is not enough, if you ask me.  Even a case a day may
not be "too much" for some people.

>While a "true" alcoholic may practice denial, isn't that
>a REASONABLE action for a non-alchohic?  In short, while you should
>recognize the tendency to deny a problem, denial itself isn't an
>indicator of the problem.
Roger.  Denial itself indicates nothing.  However, you seem to
believe in a "true" alcoholic...what is that, exactly, and would
you tell a friend if you thought they were?  Hypothetically, you
do so, and they say "stuff it."  What are you going to think then?
"Time to join the Temperance Union?"  Or maybe "it's more
serious than I thought?"
If you still want to argue, lets take it off the net;
HBD isn't a debate forum, after all.
- --Scott Welker, USU Med


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Date: Wed, 1 May 91 16:07:52 PDT
From: winter at cirrus.com (Keith Winter)
Subject: Hunter Energy Monitor


I've noted a couple of requests for locations from which to obtain the
Hunter Energy Monitor in California and the San Francisco Bay area.  I 
bought mine at Home Depot.  I know these are all over California and I
believe they are a nation-wide chain so if one is in the area, give them
a call to see if they have it.

Keith Winter  at  Cirrus Logic, Inc.  (winter at cirrusl)

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Date: Wed, 1 May 91 18:12:02 mdt
From: hplabs!hp-lsd.cos.hp.com!ihlpl!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Re: should it take 16 days in the fermentor?

mbharrington writes:
>I've had a batch of Teleford's Lager (kit) in my carboy (5 gal.) for
>16 days now, and it still hasn't stopped.  Any suggestions as to how
>to speed it up  a bit?

You can raise the temperature, but you will be defeating the purpose
of brewing a lager.  You can brew an ale with any yeast (ale, lager,
bread, etc.) but lagers are more elusive.  The primary difference
between a lager and an ale is the amount of esters (fruity flavors).
Ales, in general, are fruity and lagers are not.  At what temperature
are you brewing?  If you are brewing at 70 or 75F and it's taking 16
days, then I don't know... maybe you have a bacterial infection
(some bacteria can digest complex carbohydrates that most yeasts leave
behind).  If you are brewing at 40F, then buy some good micro beer
or import beer to take your mind off the homebrew -- it will take longer
than 16 days at that temperature.

Al.


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 to 65F is good
for ales and will produce enough esters.  Some ale yeasts will tolerate
50F or even lower.  Also, some yeasts will produce less esters at 70F
than others do at 60F.

Al.
korz at ihlpl.att.com


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Date: Wed, 1 May 91 20:18:34 EDT
From: ken at oldale.pgh.pa.us (Kenneth R. van Wyk)
Subject: Miller on special malts

Hi all - I was at my brew supply store this evening, and I finally
broke down and bought a copy of Dave Miller's "The Complete Handbook
of Home Brewing".  My first impressions are very good.  I did see one
thing that confused me a bit, so I thought I'd ask the group.

In chapter 8 (Special Malts), Miller says (any typos are undoubtedly
my own), "One point that must be emphasized is that all roasted and
crystal malts contain residual starch, and should be mashed with a
diastatic malt in order to convert that starch and extract their full
flavor and color."

This is contrary to what I've always believed.  Even many extract
recipes that I've seen call for crystal malt.  I've never heard of
mashing crystal or roasted malts.  I've always mashed my [pale|klages]
malt and then tossed in the specialty malts in with the sparge,
leaving some time for them to steep at about 170F.  Perhaps I should
be mashing.  What do other folks do?

A related question - won't mashing a dextrin (cara-pils) malt convert
some of the dextrose into maltose during the maltose (~155F) phase?
Do you all mash your dextrin malt?

Thanks,

Ken
- -- 
Kenneth R. van Wyk
ken at oldale.pgh.pa.us   (home)
krvw at cert.sei.cmu.edu  (work)

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #628, 05/02/91
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