---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  re: State Bill (brewpub rationale) (Dick Dunn)
  Hopless (hopeless) Beer ? (Jim White)
  Where to brew my Ale? (John Mireley)
  Filtered water (Joe Kendall)
  Re:  Homebrew Digest #629 (May 03, 1991) (dave)
  root beer cross post ("Ihor W. Slabicky")
  Re: Soda Pop and exploding bottles (Dave Sheehy)
  Re: ginger beer/ale, root beer (Eric Pepke)
  chlorine as sterilizer (CONNELL)
  Re: Maybock (Fritz Keinert)
  Re:  Cheap Extract (John DeCarlo)
  Brewpubs in Texas and pub database (JRM  at  214/575-6774)
  Re: Numerology (Kurt Swanson)
  Re: Next prime power (Barry Cunningham)
  Miller's homebrew book (Chip Hitchcock)
  re: Maybock (Tim Anderson  at  APD x2205)
  Re:  I'm sick of bad beer (florianb)
  diacetyl -/-> Phenols, S. Delbruckii, mit hefe,maibock (Bill Crick)
  extract prices by the barrel? (John S. Watson - FSC)
  off tasting mead ("KATMAN.WNETS385")
  Some questions from a novice (Tom Quinn 4-nnnn)
  Starch conversion in specialty grains (Don McDaniel)
  Hopless Bars? (C.R. Saikley)
  bock definition, starch in spec. grain (kevin vang)
  Maibock, etc. ("Dr. John")
  Culturing Paulaner hefeweizen yeast (David Lim)
  Microwave ovens... (David Lim)
  fruit in beer (chip upsal)
  San Diego pubs, etc. (RANDALL SCHRICKEL (NCE) x7661)
  Re: Homebrew Digest #629 (May 03, 1991) (Robert Orr)
  siphoning (Dieter Muller)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmi at hplabs.hp.com
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[Please do not send me requests for back issues]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 May 91 03:10:13 MDT (Thu)
From: ico.isc.com!rcd at raven.eklektix.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: re: State Bill (brewpub rationale)

Brian D. Moore <bemo at spacsun.rice.edu> writes:
>      Here in Texas, it is currently illegal to operate a brewpub.  However,
> there is currently legislation to allow microbreweries to operate (defined
> to be production < 75,000 barrels, a limit I do not exceed -- yet)...

That's a generous upper limit!  (I remember when Anchor was at about 30,000
barrels/year; where are they now?)

>...Debate
> is ongoing, so I ask: in my letter to my representative, what arguments
> should I include? My local supplier suggests tourism, but I cannot back
> this up with any facts.  Is local color enough of an argument for passage?

Tourism is a minor issue.  I'd suggest two possibilities:
	- Moderation:  Microbreweries tend to make beer which has more
	  flavor and body.  People drink less of a flavorful, full-bodied
	  beer than of thin beer.  (It takes a little work to write it all
	  out in convincing style, but "less filling" really means "more
	  intoxicating".)  They also drink less of good beer than of hard
	  liquor.  Therefore, microbreweries encourage those who drink to
	  drink in moderation.
	- Local control and local economic benefit:  A local beer employs
	  local people, is locally controlled, generates more local tax
	  revenue, and doesn't ship our dollars off to them damn furriners.
	  (Apologies in advance; I'm sure there are "damn furriners" in the
	  audience!  No ill will intended.  We're trying to help a fella
	  get local breweries by speaking to the issue in terms that will
	  be understood in his locale.)
 ---
Dick Dunn    rcd at raven.eklektix.com   -or-   raven!rcd


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Date:    Fri, 03 May 91 06:32:10 EDT
From: JWHITE at maine.maine.edu (Jim White)
Subject: Hopless (hopeless) Beer ?


William Boyle writes.....
>
>Subject: Unhopped malt
>
>My brew partner wants to brew our next batch with unhopped
>extract and add no hops.  I think this will not turn out very
>good.  Has anybody tried this and how did it turn out.
>
>                                   Bill Boyle

Yuch! What shall we call this strange concoction ?

IMHO Beer w/o the bitter would be like Chocolate w/o the sweet. Though
I'm sure that history would provide some precedence for such a brew, I
wouldn't recommend it.

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Date: Fri, 3 May 91 07:35:49 EDT
From: John Mireley <mireley at horus.cem.msu.edu>
Subject: Where to brew my Ale?


I have been fermenting my lager beer in the basement. The temperature
has been 61 and hasn't changed more than a degree either way. I want to
brew my first batch of  ale. I'll be using a Muton and Fison Olde Ale kit.
Should I do the fermenting upstairs where it will be warmer but the temperature 
is likely to vary more (5-10 degrees) or keep doing it in the basement at
a steady 61 degrees? My inclination is to do it in the basement and be patient.

John Mireley


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Date: 05/03/91
From: Joe Kendall <SYSHJK%GSU.EDU at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Filtered water

 I recently purchased an NSA water filter for my tap.  I've noticed a definite
 improvement in drinking water and coffee and I wonder if it will have a similar
 effect on my home brew.  We have fairly soft water in my area (Atlanta, Ga.
 USA).  The home brew produced with unfiltered water is fine.  The question is
 will I see any effects from filtered water (adverse or beneficial).

 
 

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Date: Fri, 3 May 91 09:00:06 EDT
From: dave at circus.Camex.COM
Subject: Re:  Homebrew Digest #629 (May 03, 1991)

Please remove me from this mailing list.  Unsubscribe, etc.

Thanks

P. David Pruyn                        UUCP: dave at camex.com or
Camex, Inc.	                            uunet!camex!dave
75 Kneeland St., Boston, MA 02111
Tel: (617)426-3577  Fax: 426-9285

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Date: Fri, 3 May 91 08:40:48 -0400
From: "Ihor W. Slabicky" <iws at sgfb.ssd.ray.com>
Subject: root beer cross post

	------------------------------
	
	Date: Thu, 2 May 91 17:45 GMT
	From: "KATMAN.WNETS385" 
	Subject: rootbeer revisited
	
	Does anyone have a recipe for rootbeer that is "from scratch"
	using the actual plant parts that make the syrup? 
	
I just saw such a posting in rec.food.drink (see, they're good for
something :-) ) and saved it, on the off chance that someone here
might once again ask the question.  I think the rootbeer and the mead
question comeup once a year.  However is keeping archives could have
special mead and rootbeer files just for those times... :-)

The first recommendation is to use the bottled extract (Schilling, or
McCormick, or Hires [I don't think Hires sells their extract anymore]).
But you say you want more...  shameless picked up somewhere on the Net:



Date: Thu, 18 Apr 91 13:03:59 PDT
From: Dave Sheehy <dbs at hprnd.rose.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Soda Pop and exploding bottles


As we have seen in the last several posts the general consensus seems to be
that making soda pop is an exercise is demolitions manufacture. My experience
however has been to the contrary. I have some bottles of home made soda pop
that have been sitting at room temperature (which can range up in the high 70s
in the summer) for over a year. Why do I not have the problems that many others
have had? I've thought over my procedure and think that I may have a reasonable
hypothesis. My procedure is:

        1. Put the required quantity of water (4 gals.) in my brewpot and
           heat. I may or may not bring this to a boil depending on how
           patient/distracted I am that day but the temperature definitely
           gets into the sanitation range ( > 165 F).

        2. Start the recommended amount of yeast (1/4 tsp) separately in a bowl
           of warm sugar solution.

        3. Add the entire quantity of sugar (8 cups) and soda extract to the 
           water. Dissolve the sugar into the water and allow the solution to 
           cool to, oh say somewhere in the 80s.

        4. Add the yeast starter to the soda solution and mix well.

        5. Bottle immediately (do NOT pass GO, do NOT collect $200 :-).

        6. It commonly takes 3-4 weeks to carbonate. It's really much better
           after several months in the bottle. The flavors blend or something,
           it's a very noticeable effect.

Why does this procedure not cause problems? Here's what I think may be going 
on. The commonly offered explanation for why bottles of soda pop do not 
overcarbonate and explode is that the yeast is limited by available nutrients.
I think this statement is true but that it is only part of the answer. In my
procedure I heat the water up to a high temperature driving off any dissolved
oxygen in the process. This limits the aerobic phase (and therefore the 
reproductive stage) of the yeast. This limits the effective population of 
yeast. With a limited population of yeast you are less likely to overcarbonate.
In this scenario, the pitching rate becomes a factor. If you pitch a large 
initial population of yeast, you will get overcarbonation. In fact, the only
time I've had bottles explode (and they blew up in the vegetable crisper of my
refrigerator by the way) was when I exceeded the recommended pitching rate of
1/4 tsp. Therefore, I disagree with the poster who maintains that pitching is
a binary function. I believe pitching rate is significant in this situation.

I got a whole load of pretty vehement email about exploding bottles about a 
year ago when I posted about an experiment in making psuedo low cal soda 
pop (I still haven't tried it but it involves using fructose which is 80% 
sweeter than sucrose, I think you can figure out the rest of my plan).
Since I hadn't had the problems that these people had I've been thinking alot
about my procedure and why I don't have the same problems. This is what I came
up with. So, what do y'all think?


From pepke at gw.scri.fsu.edu Tue Apr 23 11:49:15 1991
From: pepke at gw.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke)
Subject: Re: ginger beer/ale, root beer

Here is the recipe I usually use for ginger beer.

Ingredients:
3-4 oz. fresh ginger
2 lemons
2 cups sugar (sucrose or brown sugar or both)
1 gal. water
Yeast

Peel the ginger and slice into 1/8 inch slices.  Mix the water with the 
sugar and put in the ginger.  Boil an hour or so.  Slice the lemons, add 
to the boil, and boil for about 15 minutes.  Allow to cool to room 
temperature.  Add yeast.  Let the yeast grow overnight.  Bottle in very 
strong bottles.  Let sit at room temperature for about 12 hours to 
carbonate.  Put bottles in the fridge.  Open very carefully.

Notes:
Every time I did not peel the ginger, the yeast did not multiply properly. 
There may be a causal relationship.
The more you let the lemons boil, the more bitterness will be extracted 
from the peels.  For a result a lot like Canada Dry's Bitter Lemon, 
increase the number of lemons to 4, let the lemons boil for about 1/2 
hour, and cut back on the ginger.  If you don't like the lemony flavor
at all, substitute about 1 tsp. cream of tartar for them.  I don't know
what it's supposed to do, but it's better with than without.
I first started making this when I was a teenager and knew nothing about 
homebrewing.  I always used baking yeast and didn't really sanitize 
anything.  It worked fine.  Now I brew all-grain beer with fresh yeast, 
but I still use baking yeast for this recipe.

I have a number of recipes for root beer as well, but (1) they require 
some ingredients which are difficult to find even in well-stocked yuppie 
granola-head stores, (2) most of them include sassafrass bark, which is no 
longer legal to sell for human consumption, and (3) none of them produce 
results that taste much like the modern extract-based root beer that we're 
used to.  I will try to put my hands on them if there is any interest.

I have recieved several requests for root beer recipes.  Here are some from
a 19th century book, which has long since been nicked from the library.

Most of these recipes contain sassafras bark, which is illegal to purchase
for human consumption because it contains small amounts of a toxin.  So, don't
make root beer with sassafras.  Instead, go out an buy a whole carton of 
unfiltered cigarettes and smoke them all at once.  That's legal.

Root Beer--1.--To 5 gal. of boiling water add 1 1/2 gal. of molasses.  Allow
it to stand for 3 hours, then add bruised sassafras bark, wintergreen bark,
srsaparilla root, of each 1/4 lb., and 1/2 pt. of fresh yeast, water enough
to make 15 to 17 gal.  After this has fermented for 12 hours it can be
drawn off and bottled.

2.--Pour boiling water on 2 1/2 oz. sassafras, 1 1/2 oz. wild cherry bark, 
2 1/2 oz. allspice, 2 1/2 oz. wintergreen bark, 1/2 oz. hops, 1/2 oz. 
coriander seed, 2 gal. molasses.  Let the mixture stand 1 day.  Strain, add
1 pt. yeast, enough water to make 13 gal.  This beer may be bottled the 
following day.

3.--Sarsaparilla, 1 lb.; spicewood, 1/4 lb.; guaiacum chips, 1/2 lb; birch 
bark, 1/8 lb.; ginger, 1/4 oz.; sassafras, 2 oz.; prickly ash bark, 1/4 oz.;
hops, 1/2 oz.  Boil for 12 hours over a moderate fire with sufficient water,
so that the remainder shall measure 3 gal., to which add tincture of ginger,
4 oz.; oil of wintergreen, 1/2 oz.; alcohol, 1 pt.  This prevents fermentation.
[Yeah, right--EMP]  To make root beer, take of this decoction, 1 qt.; 
molasses, 8 oz., water, 2 1/2 gal.; yeast, 4 oz.  This will soon ferment and
produce a good, drinkable beverage.  The root beer should be mixed, in warm
weather, the evening before it is used, and can be kept for use either bottled
or drawn by a common beer pump.  Most people prefer a small addition of wild
cherry bitters or hot drops to the above beer.


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Date: Fri, 3 May 91 09:23 CST
From: CONNELL at vax.cord.edu
Subject: chlorine as sterilizer

My local water utility is in the process of building a new water treatment
facility.  The reason given is that new EPA guidelines on trihalomethanes
can only be met if ozone rather than chlorine is used as the primary
disinfectant in water treatment.  That has me wondering how good an idea
it is for us to use bleach in disinfecting/sanitizing brewing equipment.
My uncertainty on this is even greater since I have seen such wide variations
in recommended concentrations of bleach in water to use.  Are bisulphites or
B-Brite safer?  

                                  George Connell
                                  Connell at vax.cord.edu on Internet

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Date: Fri, 03 May 91 09:47:52 CDT
From: Fritz Keinert <keinert at iastate.edu>
Subject: Re: Maybock

In digest #629, <hannan at gnpike.enet.dec.com> asks
>> Anyone know the definition of May bock beer, or bock in general ?

"Bock" means "male goat" in German, and you often find a picture of
one on the bottle. However, the name of the beer has nothing to do
with that. Bock beer was first brewed in the town of Einbeck, and got
its name from that. The Einbeck beer was extra strong and became well
known for that, even outside the immediate area. Other beers could not
be transported well in the olden days; they spoiled in transit. (We
are talking oxcarts over dirt roads, here, with the beer in wooden
kegs).

Today, Bock beer just means any extra strong beer. Many breweries in
Germany make one of these for Labor Day (May 1 in most countries
except for the USA), so that is Maibock.

The traditional Labor Day activity in Germany is to take a hike in the
outdoors, to enjoy the coming of spring, until you run into one of the
beer tents set up all over the place. This is where Maibock comes in.

Fritz Keinert                             phone:  (515) 294-5128
Department of Mathematics                 fax:    (515) 294-5454
Iowa State University                     e-mail: keinert at iastate.edu
Ames, IA 50011

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Date: Friday, 3 May 1991 11:22:06 EDT
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re:  Cheap Extract

>What's the cheapest source of malt extract (canned or dry)
>available?  Please list distributor, price, and address

It seems to me that the folks that sell their malt extract in the
plastic bags (that can go right in the boil) offer the best
prices.

The best price I got was last year when Williams Brewing in CA
had a sale on English Light--$10 for 6lbs.  I just recently
ordered some from American Brewmasters in NC.  In quantity, the
cost goes down to $6.08 for a 3.3lb bag.

As Chris Shenton pointed out to me, if you include shipping
charges, your effective price will vary on distance, so shipping
from NC probably saves me more anyway.

It would seem likely that buying the 55lb pails of extract would be the
cheapest, but it never goes below $2/lb, so it can only be cheapest by
including the shipping charges, which are typically included in the price.

John "BTW, the next issue that is a prime power is actually
      631^1, followed by 641^1" DeCarlo

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
           (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Fri, 3 May 91 10:18:59 -0500
From: jmellby at skvax1.csc.ti.com (JRM  at  214/575-6774)
Subject: Brewpubs in Texas and pub database

I have heard that out club president, Mike Leonard (also runs one
of the local home-brew stores) has been down to Austin to testify
to the legislature to legalize brewpubs.  Usually the first real
hurdle is to make it into the legislature as a real issue, as opposed
to something the politicians ignore.

I believe we have made it this far.  The real opposition now is
the very strong beer distributors' lobby (which wants to keep the
3-tiered system).

On another note, v1 of my pub (and brewpub and microbrewery)
program is running.  It has about 640+ entries (181 brewpubs,
77 microbreweries).  The README file is 8k so I'm not posting it here,
but I'll send it to anyone interested.  The program is in C++ for
a Sun/4.  The db itself is currently 126k.

Anyone having listings of brewpubs, microbreweries, or bars you can
recommend please talk to me.

John R. Mellby
jmellby at iluvatar.dseg.ti.com
jmellby at skvax1.ti.com

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Date: Fri, 3 May 91 10:28:45 CDT
From: kswanson at casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Kurt Swanson)
Subject: Re: Numerology

> 1) The next issue whose number will be a prime power should be 729 which is 3
> to the 6th power.

	Move over amateur numerologists... the next prime power is 631, which
is 631^1. Hah, hah hah.

K.

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Date: Fri, 3 May 91 11:04:08 EDT
From: abvax!icd.ab.com!bwc at uunet.UU.NET (Barry Cunningham)
Subject: Re: Next prime power

631 is a prime.  631^1 = 631.

| Barry Cunningham                {cwjcc,pyramid,decvax,uunet}!bwc at icd.ab.com |
| Allen-Bradley Company, Inc.     or                       ICCGCC::CUNNINGHAM |
| 747 Alpha Drive                 or                    BWCUNNIN at MRGSD at REMNET |
| Highland Hts., OH 44143         phone: (216) 646-5241   FAX: (216) 646-4484 | 

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Date: Fri, 3 May 91 11:45:43 EDT
From: cjh at vallance.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Miller's homebrew book

   When ZYMURGY reviewed this, the chief rap was that the book was very
opinionated, taking vigorous positions on matters that brewers disagree on
without backing them up with solid research. This is certainly true;
consider -"iodine testing for starch conversion is a waste of time"-.
Miller also disdains extract brewing; most of his recipes are for full-mash
brewing, with partial-mash versions appended. It's definitely a book that
would scare away most beginners.
   On the other hand, the book notes many of the advances in basic
homebrewing technique. All recipes specify AAU's of hops (Papazian specs
ounces, which is much less precise), and he covers a very wide variety of
styles with both recipes and discussions of what defines the style, and
without cute names or distracting and inaccurate descriptions. I've used
his recipes to figure what to add to light extract to make various styles
(this is Papazian's weakest point---his recipes and his table of style
additives show an excessive fondness for black malt, which I am now
\\very// cautious about using at all). It's well-organized (technique in
brief, technique in detail, recipes), discusses chemistry in useful detail,
and has an index.
   I'd say it's still not the ideal book, but it's much better than any
other general homebrewing book you can find (e.g., there are some pretty
good English books that cover fewer styles and call for ingredients that
are either unavailable or strangely named). NB: the cover varnish on my
copy shrank even without exposure to sunlight; a nuisance, but I don't
think this can be fixed (somebody should tell Miller he has a cheap
publisher) and it doesn't spoil the book.

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Date: Fri,  3 May 91 09:12:18 PDT
From: tima at apd.MENTORG.COM (Tim Anderson  at  APD x2205)
Subject: re: Maybock

In HBD #629 (17 * 37) Ken writes:

>	I recently bought some Ayinger Maibock (May Bock) beer from 
>	West Germany.  It is a very bitter very heavy very strong delicious 
>	brew which I had never heard of.   Apparently "bock" doesn't mean
>	dark, as this brew has a basic dense, golden color.
>	
>	Anyone know the definition of May bock beer, or bock in general ?

Read your description.  Sounds like a pretty good definition to me.


tim

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Date: Fri, 03 May 91 09:16:32 PDT
From: florianb at chip.cna.tek.com
Subject: Re:  I'm sick of bad beer

Marty Albini commented on Brian D. Moore's input to the Texas legislature:

>        Tell them the current laws are anti-competitive, and
>are inhibitting a potentially lucretive industry. Jobs is a
>good arguement; I don't think anybody in the legislature would
>be sympathetic to "I'm sick of bad beer!" If the process of
>regulating alcohol is as corrupt in TX as it is in CA, the
>megabreweries will have an easier time suppressing competition
>than the public will encouraging it.

The trouble is, having microbreweries legal isn't any guarantee that
the beer quality will improve.  In fact, here in Oregon there are
several breweries producing ale of such poor quality that if I had
made it in my own kitchen, I would have poured it out.  Some of this
stuff *should* be illegal!!

Rarely do I purchase microbrewery beer out of bottles on the grocery
shelf.  But recently, I made a trip to Portland, then Corvallis on
a weekend.  Being away from my own brew, I took the plunge and bought
some bottled micros from two grocery's.  In PDX I bought Portland Ale,
Full Sail Amber, and some European standby's.  In Corvallis I bought
Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, Sierra Nevada Bock, Bridgeport Coho, and Coors.
Of all these, I could only stomach the Sierra Nevada and Coors.  Here
is a little miniature beer judgement:

1	Portland Ale.  Muddy, floating debris, autolyzed, a rotten
	egg buried under a chicken coop for 10 years, unbalanced
	bitterness, of interest only to Philistine swine.

2	Bridgeport Coho.  Murky, stale, bitterness akin to quinine
	without the redeeming medicinal quality, "sweet bile",
	aroma of rotting manure, bathtub odor.  The weekend drink
	of desert oil-drilling equipment mechanics.

3	Sierra Nevada Bock.  Clean, well-balanced, satisfying, good
	aroma, professional.

4	Coors.  Clean, neutral, thirst-quenching, unoffending,
	nearly worth the cost.

5	Corvallis tap water.  Dark, moldy, floating boulders, aroma
	of rotting fish, reminiscent of Portland Ale, but with
	the aminic stench of Bridgeport Coho.

But hey, it's only my opinion.
florian, bearing the standard of democratic brewing quality


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Date: 	Fri, 3 May 1991 09:26:45 -0400
From: hplabs!bnr-vpa!bnr-rsc!crick (Bill Crick)
Subject: diacetyl -/-> Phenols, S. Delbruckii, mit hefe,maibock

Diacetyl, and phenols:

Diaceytl can be created by the yeast, or by contamination. I've also
heard that too much adjuncts can contribute.
I don't think diacetyls can change to phenols? I have intentionally 
brewed high diacetyl ales, and stored them for long periods with no 
evidence of phenols.
Source of phenols? Most likely is residue from Clorine bleach creating
chloro-phenols. These have flavor thresholds in the parts per BILLION!!
Note they have medicine like, plastic like flavor. Like chewing an old bandaid?
You did chew bandaids when you were kid?
Have you changed your cleaning methods lately? Started using bleaches?
A cleaner with chlorine based ingredients? Decided to really get it 
clean by using concentrated ( > than 1oz/5gallons IE:a teaspoon in a gallon)
bleach to "really nuke it"?

Temperature, and S. Delbruckii:

I have a batch going with Mev 033 Wheat beer yeast, which is supposed to 
be pure S. Delbruckii. They list 16C to 20C. At 16C its going pretty slow
(can you say 7weeks, and still fizzing?),so depending what the other yeast is, 
I'd suggest that at 16C teh S.Delbruckii won't be doing too much attenuation,
but I don't know what its secondary flavor activity is at this temp.

Maibock: 

Although several friends have brought Maibock home from Germany,
I've never seen it described in any beer books? HOw come? How popular is it?


Bill Crick Brewius, Ergo Sum



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Date: Fri, 3 May 91 09:52:25 -0700
From: John S. Watson - FSC <watson at pioneer.arc.nasa.gov>
Subject: extract prices by the barrel?


Howdy Folks,

Some of the homebrew supply stores I've been to, have 55 gallon 
barrels of malt extract syrup.   You take your own bucket and fill it
with the amount of extract you need, and they charge you by the pound.
(Last time I did this is was about $1.69).
(From my inquires, I've found that a barrel is about 700 pounds of extract.)   
But the owners always are a little touchy about how much they paid for it. 
(One said he'd sell it to me for about $1.20 per pound).

So my question is, 
"How much do thos 55 gal barrels of malt extract syrup cost the homebrew
supply stores?" 
And if I had a sudden desire to make 583 gallons of beer, 
could and where would I procure it?

I'm just curious; I live in a one bedroom apartment, 
and a barrel would take up half my living room. :-)


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Date: Fri, 3 May 91 15:52 GMT
From: "KATMAN.WNETS385" <6790753%356_WEST_58TH_5TH_FL%NEW_YORK_NY%WNET_6790753 at mcimail.com>
Subject: off tasting mead



     Date: 03-May-91      Time: 11:53 AM       Msg: EXT01012

Hello,
   Doug Luce in #629 asks about off-tasting mead from September. When I made my
first two batches of mead (winter 86-87 and 87-88) I tried 2 recipes. One was
the tea, ginger, orange & honey variety, one was from Acton & Duncan (powdered
acids & honey). After a year (and I think 3 rackings) the stuff still smelled
and tasted off, not quite like formaldehyde, but a similar sweet chemical
taste. I chalked it up as a loss and stuck the gallon jugs in a dark corner of
the basement. And forgot them. For two years.
   In 1989 I moved and found them. I decided to bottle them and ask more
experienced brewers what I did wrong. Surprisingly, both tasted great! We're
talking superb, dry, wine-like meads. I suspect that if you give your mead a
while longer to age, it will get better. I know people who make drinkable mead
in 2 months, but they usually do not add any acids. Mead and wine take longer
than beer to mature. Relax. :)

Lee Katman == Thirteen/WNET == New York, NY

=Do not= use REPLY or ANSWERBACK, I can not receive mail in that fashion.
Please send all mail to
INTERNET katman.wnets385%wnet_6790753 at mcimail.com
OR
MCIMAIL EMS: wnet 6790753  MBX: katman.wnets385



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Date: 3 May 91 14:52:26 EDT (Fri)
From: GC Woods <gcw at garage.att.com>

	After reading the latest zymurgy I'm confused. The vast majority 
	of the digest posts stress the point to remove the wort from 
	the cold break. This is contrary the zymurgy article on 
	"The trouble with trub" (sorry can't remember the authors name) 
	which stated for most type of beers the cold break trub is 
	actually good for a limited time (you would not lager on trub).

	He further stated that the hot break precipitates are
	detrimental to the flavor of the beer. The problem is I did not
	see an easy way to separate these small (80 - 100 micron)
	precipitates from the wort. The idea of siphoning from the side
	of a whirlpool does not seem practical and since these
	precipitates are so small settling may take forever and
	siphoning may stir them up again anyhow. 

	Any comments on how to eliminate hot break trub from the wort 
	and why the digest and Miller say to separate the wort from the
	cold break??


					Geoffrey Woods
					att!garage!gcw (uucp)
					gcw at garage.att.com (internet)


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Date: Fri, 3 May 91 14:35:59 CDT
From: quinnt at turing.med.ge.com (Tom Quinn 4-nnnn)
Subject: Some questions from a novice

Hi folks,

Now that my third batch is relaxingly burbling away in my carboy, I
have a few questions about some of the techniques I attempted in my
last brewing session.  The last place I ordered ingredients from
included some directions for new ways of doing things, but there's a
few things I'd like to understand better.

The first new process I used was preparing a yeast starter from a
liquid culture.  I boiled 1c water, 3Tbsp malt extract, and one hop
pellet for ~20 minutes, cooled, and transferred into a sanitized
bottle topped with a fermentation lock.  When a nice foam had formed I
brewed and pitched the entire contents into my 5 gallon batch.  Am I
right to assume that I could have perpetuated this yeast by preparing
another wort like above, and placed some of my yeast in it to make a
new starter?  If so, how much would I need to use in the starter?  I
guess I'd really like to learn more about yeasts.  Is the Zymurgy
yeast issue a good source?

I'd also like to try reusing the yeast by adding my next batch on top
of the yeast left from this batch in the carboy.  I've seen mention of
something called "washing" the yeast, but no explaination of how to do
this.  Could someone please fill me in?  How soon after siphoning off
the first batch must I pour in the new one?

Thanks for any help.

Tom Quinn

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Date: Fri, 3 May 91 13:41:16 -0600
From: dinsdale at chtm.unm.edu (Don McDaniel)
Subject: Starch conversion in specialty grains

I'm looking for some experiences with converting the starches
in specialty grains in all-extract batches.  The recent 
mention of Miller's comment that the color and flavor is fully
released only in mashing reminds me of these thoughts.

I have seen a couple of products in brew catalogs (sorry, I can't
remember which ones) which should allow an extrct brewer to
get sugars from his special grains.  One was DMS: diastatic (sp?)
malt extract.  That's extract with enzymes.  The other product
was a liquid containing concentrated enzymes.  The description 
said it was used in the production of sake.  Add a small amount,
adjust the pH and temperature, and full conversion would tAke
about 15 minutes.

It seems to me that one could steep the crushed grains in a grain
bag, add the enzymes and let it go for 30 min.  Then disolve
the extract and continue as usual.  This would add no extra time
as you need to steep for color and flavor anyway.  It would let
you get the sugar from the grain and might result in more color
and flavor.  Miller says specialty grains yield 25 points per
pound per gallon (somewhat more for crystal).  For a five gallon 
batch then, you'd get about five points out of a pound of
crystal (common amount for a pale ale).

Has anyone tried any of these products?  How do they work?  Do you
see any reason they might not work?

Don McDaniel
dinsdale at chtm.unm.edu


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Date: Fri, 3 May 91 10:40:50 PDT
From: grumpy!cr at uunet.UU.NET (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: Hopless Bars?

From: William Boyle (CCL-L) <wboyle at PICA.ARMY.MIL>

>My brew partner wants to brew our next batch with unhopped
>extract and add no hops.  I think this will not turn out very
>good.  Has anybody tried this and how did it turn out.

I would tend to agree with you. Hops are very beneficial to beer, so 
use 'em :-D

The Anchor Brewing Co made a special Sumerian Brew. The recipe allegedly
came from the inside of a cave in Sumeria (sometimes referred to as Iraq!).
The mash was made from loaves of bread and dates. The "wort" was heated, 
but not boiled. No hops were used. It was not your everyday drink, and was
enjoyed by some yet decreed vile by others. I put some in my cellar to see
how it would develop. It went off very quickly. This brew had the shortest
shelf life of any I've known.

Moral of the story : Boil your wort and add hops.

Hoppy Brewing,
CR




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llbock, but is nonetheless a heavenly
brew. Maibocks can vary in color, I've seen them range from golden to
amber. For a domestic Hellbock that does its Bavarian brethren proud, look
for Sierra Nevada Pale Bock, the proverbial nectar of the gods.


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Date:         Fri, 03 May 91 14:29:59 CDT
From: kevin vang <MN033302 at VM1.NoDak.EDU>
Subject:      bock definition, starch in spec. grain

"Bock" means "goat".  One of the charming traditions of German brewers is the
brewing of special seasonal beers to be drunk at various times of the year.
Oktoberfest beers being one obvious example.  Bock beers were traditionally
brewed by monks to be drunk during lent (Salvator, brewed by the Paulaner order
, is the archetypical example).  Either the season when bock is brewed or serv-
ed (I forget which, I'm not up on astrology) occurs during the sign of Capri-
corn, the goat, hence "Bock bier".  Bocks are traditionally stronger than usual
brews, and one which is extremely strong is a "Doppelbock" (double bock).  A
"Maibock" would be a bock intended to be drunk in May.  "Helles" means light
(color, not calories) and "Dunkel" means dark, so a "Helles bock" is a light
colored bock.  (bocks are typically dark, so you wouldn't say "dunkelbock").
Incidently, most bock beers will have a picture of a goat somewhere on the
label.  I was amused by two domestic bocks.  Augsberger bock (if I remember
correctly) has a picture of a sheep on its label, and Kessler bock, brewed in
Helena, Montana, has a Rocky Mountain goat.

Specialty grains --  The purpose of mashing is to convert non-fermentable
starches into fermentable sugars.  Crystal malt has been soaked in water and
then kilned, which process converts the starches to sugar.  Thus crystal can be
added at any time, and does not need mashing.  Cara-pils (dextrine) malt is
similar to crystal except (I think) that it is kilned at a lower temp, so it
has less color, and it has some starches; so it should be mashed.  Roasted malt
, black patent malt, and chocolate malt are added purely for color and flavor,
and thus don't need to be mashed.  Munich malt, wheat malt and adjuncts (rice,
maize, flaked barley, oatmeal) have only unconverted starches, and therefore
must be mashed.

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Date:         Fri, 03 May 91 15:52:04 EDT
From: "Dr. John" <JELJ at CORNELLA.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:      Maibock, etc.

A few comments regarding postings to HBD #629:

Ken <hannan at gnpike.enet.dec.com> asks about the Maibock style,

According to Michael Jackson, in "The Simon & Schuster Pocket Guide to Beer"
Maibock is "A bock beer of super-premium quality.  Usually pale.  Made for the
end of April and beginning of May to celebrate spring."  I have had this
particular beer (Ayinger Maibock) a couple years ago and don't recall it as a
particularly bitter, perhaps they have changed the formulation.

Bill Boyle asks about making a hop-free beer with unhopped malt extract,

I don't think that this would produce anything that I'd personally want to
drink, haven't tried it and don't plan to.

Darryl Okahata asks about Jackie Rager's IBU formula in the Hop issue of
Zymurgy,

Guess I'll have to play around with the formula a bit more to look into its
apparently extreme sensitivity to the time of the boil.  One thing I did notice
in the presentation is that the formula as presented, if used strictly as
presented, produces different numbers than the example which follows it later
in the article.  Seems that Zymurgy could use a good technical editor; this
is not the first time that they have had articles with mathematical formulae
which don't give the answers that subsequent examples produce.  Caveat emptor.
As to additional extraction of bittering compounds during the time between
the boil and when the wort is all chilled, I personally wouldn't worry about
it too much as a good rolling boil is required to isomerize the alpha acids.


Mbharrington at ucsd.edu asks about Miller's book

In my opinion this is a good book that picks up with a lot of topics where
Papazian leaves off.  It also doesn't suffer from the cutesiness that
Papazian was so fond of (he seems to have toned it down somewhat recently,
and thankfully, though I guess the true test will be the second edition of
"The Complete Joy of Homebrewing" which is reportedly due out this fall.)
The only caveat I would place on my recommendation for Miller's book concerns
those who have no interest in mashing, if you are among this group you may
not find the book to be all that useful.  If, on the other hand, you are
thinking about dabbling with some partial mashes, or jumping into all-grain
brewing, then this is the book for you.


Is anyone out there planning to take the Beer Judge exam at the AHA
conference next month?  I know we have at least one beer judge on the
forum (Darryl Richman), any others?  If so, do you have any study/exam-
related advice for those of us aspiring to judgeship?  Any and all comments
would be graciously accepted and appreciated.

Cheers,

Dr. John

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Date: Sat, 4 May 91 13:50:29 MDT
From: David Lim <limd at sulu.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: Culturing Paulaner hefeweizen yeast


Hi.  I'm interested in knowing what kind of experiences people have had
in culturing Paulaner hefeweizen yeast.  I realize that it's a lager yeast
that they add to the bottle after fermentation (i.e. not the yeast they
use to do the "primary" fermentation - which I'm assuming would be one
specifically needed to produce the classic wheat beer phenolics, esters,
etc... such as S. Delbruckii (spelling?) ) .  What I'm interested in
is how good of a yeast this bottle yeast is for lager fermentation.

It doesn't seem to be a very flocculant strain, as shaken bottles of 
Paulaner hefeweizen seem to stay cloudy for quite a long time - maybe
this is intentional on Paulaner's part to make sure that the drinkers know
that they're getting "real" yeast (hefe) in their brew. (I hear that
some breweries in Germany actually have dispensers of yeast slurry for
customers to *add* to their glasses of beer!)  I do have the ability to
culture my own yeast colonies on agar slants and plates, so I'm looking
to expand my "collection" with other samples.  If anyone has sucessfully
used this yeast for fermentation of lagers, what's it like?  Is it 
attenuative? Does it have any "quirks" like having the need to raise
the fermentation temperature during the final third to reduce diacetyl?
Is is "stable" enough for home culturing?

Yes, I could just as easily start from some "known" strains such as those
Wyeast provides, but that's not as fun.

Thanks!

_Davin Lim (limd at sulu.colorado.edu)

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Date: Sat, 4 May 91 13:54:40 MDT
From: David Lim <limd at sulu.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: Microwave ovens...


Hi again.  Does anybody know if a microwave oven has any ability to serve
as a sterilizing/sanitizing device for small items such as stoppers, hoses, tubes,
etc...?  I mean other than boiling-off any of the water that may be clinging
to such items.  I was wondering if the microwaves themselves are of any
use to killing / deactivating the microorganisms that might infect beer.

I agree there are much more energy efficient methods of sanitization, but
would like to know anyway.

 -Davin Lim (limd at sulu.colorado.edu)

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Date: 04 May 91 08:44:53 EDT
From: chip upsal <70731.3556 at compuserve.com>
Subject: fruit in beer

In hbd 627 Jeff Chambers writes:

>My recent batch, a Rasberry Stout, after transfer to the secondary, laid
>dormant for two weeks.  The fermentation then took off just when we felt
>that the fermentation was over.  I'm wondering: Do the complex sugars
found
>in fruit beers somehow delay fermentation?  We normally use Munton & Fison
>Yeast and we have not noticed activity of this kind in any of our other
brews.

You betcha.  Thinkk of the fermentation of wine and mead.  Those
products take an extreemly long time to ferment.

Chip


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Date: Sun, 5 May 91 14:38:54 -0400
From: randy at aplcomm.jhuapl.edu (RANDALL SCHRICKEL (NCE) x7661)
Subject: San Diego pubs, etc.

Oh no, another one of those "Where to go in xxx" posts. Sorry, but I can't
post to any (rec, misc, etc.) newsgroups. 

So, for my ten day trip to San Diego - any suggestions? Brew pubs, micros,
etc., would be great, but also any information on any good drinking/eating
establishments that I should try to hit while there. Thanx.

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Date: Sun, 5 May 91 17:24:21 PDT
From: roborr at polari (Robert Orr)
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #629 (May 03, 1991)

HI! My copy of HBD629 seems to be rather garbled. could you send it again?

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Date: Sun, 5 May 91 21:54:12 MDT
From: dworkin at habitrail.Solbourne.COM (Dieter Muller)
Subject: siphoning

OK, it's ignorant beginner question time once again....

How do you start the siphoning from a fermenter?  The problem, as I
understand it, is to pull enough of a vacuum in the siphon tube that
the liquid fills the tube.  You then get whatever pulled the vacuum
out of the way (preferably replaced by whatever you're siphoning
into), and let gravity do the rest of the work.  Is there some
convenient vacuum pump available, or does everyone just suck on the
tube?  The latter approach seems pretty much garanteed to contaminate
things....

Thanks.

	Dworkin
"Your spatial laws are ok, but God, the choices you give us." -- Deborah Blau
dworkin at solbourne.com                      Flamer's Hotline: (303) 678-4624

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #630, 05/06/91
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