---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Blank Mail Note (wegeng)
  Hopped Dry Extract (Thomas Conner)
  Pgh Pubs (Michael Harlan Shea)
  Re: Mashing Crystal and Cara-Pils Malts? (Ken Giles)
  Light Struck beer. (S94TAYLO)
  Re: Homebrew Digest #652 (June 05, 1991) (Jean Hunter)
  UK beer festivals this summer (pmh)
  KC Brewpubs (Eric Rose)
  Clement Brewing Company (also, Chapterhouse in Ithaca, NY) (Dave Kohr)
  Mashing High Dextrin Content Malts (Mike Charlton)
  Leaping to the Defense of Iowa (MC2331S)
  Re: Thanks and a mead question. (Chris Shenton)
  Re: Acid Carboys (Chris Shenton)
  Papazian index (David Arnold)
  Use of sugar (dbreiden)
  Trouble with trub, crystal malt (Mike Peterson)
  Mashing Crystal and Cara-Pils Malts? (Brian Smithey)
  How to get "Bombed" on Homebrew. (resubmit from #646) (IOCONNOR)
  Homebrewers in Morgantown, WV? (STEPHENS)
  heretic again (Geoffrey Sherwood)
  the recipe book (David King)
  sunlight and beer (David King)
  two questions (Joe Uknalis)
  Priming with honey 
  Supplies in St. Louis (Rob)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmi at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmi at hplabs.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 	Thu, 6 Jun 1991 05:25:01 PDT
From: wegeng at arisia.xerox.com
Subject: Blank Mail Note

>I'm starting a still mead which will probably require at
>least a year of aging after bottling.  Is it best to bottle this kind of
>mead with caps, or corks.

I bottle mine with corks, but I don`t think that it really matters.  I`ve
talked to the winemakers at a couple wineries about this, and they said that
corks are used now days mostly because their customers associate corks with
better wine.  Crown caps are cheaper, and provide a better seal.  I use corks
for the same reason as the wineries - they look better.

/Don

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Date: 06/06/91
From: Thomas Conner <SYSTCT%GSU.EDU at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Hopped Dry Extract


 I am interested in trying Papazian's recipe for Quiddity Dutch Lager
 (p. 162 of Joy) but am unable to find Wunderbrau hopped dry malt extract
 crystals. I've tried my local shop as well as Great Fermentations.
 Any suggestions about other sources or possible substitutions?

 Thanks in advance.

 Tom Conner


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Date: Thu,  6 Jun 91 10:39:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Harlan Shea <ms7i+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Pgh Pubs

 I don't know why I don't know this information, but it occurred to
me that I'm unaware of any brewpubs in the Pittsburgh (or Oakland/
Shadyside/Squrrel Hill) area.  Are there any?

 Thank you kindly, and
 May your Armadillo never drink and drive,


 Michael

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Date: Thu,  6 Jun 91 08:05:32 PDT
From: keng at ic.MENTORG.COM (Ken Giles)
Subject: Re: Mashing Crystal and Cara-Pils Malts?

In HBD #653, Mark Rouleau says:
> On the other hand, won't mashing convert all those dextrins
> into simple sugars that yeast like?  If so, what happens to the
> rich mouth feel and sweetness that these malts are intended to
> produce?

Yes, mashing can convert the dextrins in crystal malt to simple sugars. But it
won't convert the carmelized sugars, and that's part of the intended
contribution of crystal malt, as well. So, what about mouth feel and sweetness?
They must be controlled with mashing temperature, which can be adjusted to
favor a dextrinous wort. Or, you can add the crystal after the mash, just like
you would in an extract brew.

kg.

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Date:     Thu, 6 Jun 91 11:47 EST
From: <S94TAYLO%USUHSB.BITNET at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject:  Light Struck beer.

The problem with UV exposure of beer is that a photoisomerization of certain
hop components occurs, producing a "skunky" aroma.  In some beers on some
occasions, it is VERY distinct.  The worst I've had it was with a fifth of
Steinlager (have you had one yet?) from New Zealand.  It is bottled in green
glass, which doesn't absorb very much in the high frequency wavelength.  Brown
glass absorbs very well in this range.
Finally, to answer the question that was asked in #653, most breweries DON'T
protect their beer in green or clear bottles, and it IS susceptible to skunk.
Miller Brewing Co. chemically converts their hop components so that they can
no longer be converted into the skunky aromatic, while still retaining its
hoppy character.
Al Taylor
Bethesda, Maryland
Uniformed Services University
School of Medicine

Disclaimer (does anyone ever really read these disclaimers?):
The views expressed herein do not necessarily reflect the views of this
institution, the Department of Defense, or any other uptight medical student
here or anywhere else.  They are solely those of the author.

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Date:         Thu, 06 Jun 91 11:41:30 EDT
From: Jean Hunter <MS3Y at CORNELLA.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:      Re: Homebrew Digest #652 (June 05, 1991)

On the subject of dry ice for beer carbonation I would like to post two
comments that came in since HBD652.  First, dry ice is not known for
food-grade cleanliness, so anything carbonated with it should probably be
consumed within a day or two to avoid the possibility of spoilage.  Second,
the formula I gave was for volumes CO2 at room temperature, 25 degrees C.
If you want to calculate volumes at 0 degrees C you have to use 22.4 liters
per mole, not the 24.4 that I gave.
   So, Al, did it work?  --Jean

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Date: Thu, 06 Jun 91 11:51:43 EDT
From: pmh at media-lab.media.mit.edu
Subject: UK beer festivals this summer

I just got this info in from a friend in England - sorry, I don't
have anything other than dates and places. For more info try
CAMRA, 34 Alma Road, St. Albans, Herts AL1 3BW, UK

At long last the boys have got around to sussing out prospective beer
festivals this summer.  The following might be of interest:

June 21-22	Surrey
June 26-29	Greenwich (London)
June 28-29	Exeter (Devon)
July 2-6	Chelmsford (Essex)
July 10-14	Derby (Derbyshire)
July 12-14	Ashton (Manchester)
July 13-14	North-Sussex
July 13-14	Woodcote (near Reading)
July 18-20	Kent
July 27-29	Wynchcombe (Cotswolds/Gloucestershire)
Aug 13-17	London arena (the big one! - CAMRA GBBF)

happy festing,
	---- Paul Hubel
- ------------------------------------
     USQUE AD MORTEM BIBENDUM
- ------------------------------------

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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 11:54:48 EDT
From: Eric Rose <rose at aecom.yu.edu>
Subject: KC Brewpubs

Yeah, yeah, another "any brewpubs in X" posting.

I'll be in Kansas City in August.  Any brewpubs?
Thanks in advance,

Eric Rose
Albert Einstein College o' Medicine

- -- 

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Date: Thu,  6 Jun 91 12:24:57 -0400
From: drk at ll.mit.edu (Dave Kohr)
Subject: Clement Brewing Company (also, Chapterhouse in Ithaca, NY)

> Date: Tue, 4 Jun 91 16:31:23 EDT
> From: srussell at snoopy.msc.cornell.edu (Stephen Russell)
> Subject: NY, NJ, PA, CT brewclub members???
> 
> Greetings again!
> 
> Our homebrew club (the Ithaca Brewer's Union) is organizing a trip to Vernon
> Valley, NJ, the weekend of July 27-28.  We will be there for "Germanfest", one
> of their many summer activities, but of more importance for subscribers to this
> digest, we will be getting a tour of the Clement Brewing Company (formerly the
> Vernon Valley Brewing Co.) courtesy of owner James Clement.  The brewery is
> one of the few in the world that uses wooden casks for fermenting.
> [...]
> STEVE
> 
> srussell at snoopy.msc.cornell.edu

Is this James Clement the same one who (I believe) owns the Chapterhouse,
and who briefly ran a brewpub near Syracuse University called "Clement's
Brewpub" (which has since reverted to being "Hungry Charlie's")?  I always
try to visit the Chapterhouse whenever I'm in Ithaca, and I've been
wondering about the "story" behind the Chapterhouse's origins and the
owner's plans for expansion of his brewing enterprise.

Also, how widely will the products of the Clement Brewing Company be
distributed?  And does anyone know the story behind the rise and fall of
"Clement's Brewpub" in Syracuse?

By the way, I'm glad to see that Michael Jackson has paid a visit to the
Chapterhouse; a favorable entry for it in one of Jackson's books will make
for excellent publicity for an otherwise (in my opinion) too little-known
establishment.

David R. Kohr     M.I.T. Lincoln Laboratory      Group 45 (Radars 'R' Us)
     email:    drk at ll.mit.edu (preferred)  or  drk at athena.mit.edu
     phone:    (617)981-0775 (work)        or  (617)527-3908 (home)

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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 10:20:29 CST
From: mike at ranger.bison.mb.ca (Mike Charlton)
Subject: Mashing High Dextrin Content Malts

  I don't really have any proof for my explanation of why mashing crystal
leaves dextrins, but I think it is fairly reasonable.  Basically, the
reason that the complex sugars are not reduced to more simple sugars is
that the enzymes work at a certain rate.  They convert starch into complex
sugars and convert those complex sugars into simpler sugars.  The typical
mash leaves a certain amount of complex sugars in the wort simply due to
the fact that the length of the mash was not long enough to convert all the
complex sugars.  That being the case, when we increase the level of complex
sugars at the beginning of the mash (by adding crystal malt, etc.) that
level is still present at the end of the mash (although, probably not
derived from the crystal malt itself, since that would have been
converted right away).	Anyway, you can get a farily good idea of the
dextrin content of your wort by closely inspecting your iodine test.
Starch will turn iodine blue and simple sugars do not change the colour
appreciatively.  However, complex sugars will change the colour of iodine
to a fairly dark brown.  By inspecting the colour of the iodine test you
can fairly easily get an idea about the fermentability of the wort and can
adjust the length of time you spend mashing accordingly.

		Mike Charlton


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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 12:23 CDT
From: MC2331S at ACAD.DRAKE.EDU
Subject: Leaping to the Defense of Iowa

	In 653 there were some comments made about the state of brewing in Iowa,so I guess I just have to add my 2s 6d worth.  Fitzpatrick's, in IA City is an
excellent place, which give us extract brewers great hope (he is an extract 
brewer).  Dubuque Star brewery contract brews Zele Lemon Light (weird stuff, butit did win a gold medal at the GABF).  Millstream brews an excellent amber
(Schild Brau), a lager and a really good Wheat.
	Mark Castleman
	Big Bog Brewing Cooperative, DSM IA
	MC2331S at ACAD.DRAKE.EDU

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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 13:33:53 EDT
From: Chris Shenton <chris at asylum.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Thanks and a mead question.

Dan> Is it best to bottle this kind of 
Dan> mead with caps, or corks.  Since pressure isn't the issue, would corks be 
Dan> better to allow minimal oxygen transfer as in wine or should I use plain 
Dan> old crown caps and seal the mead away from the elements.

I've used crown caps on large beer bottles, and plastic champagne style
corks on -- oddly enough -- champagne bottles. Both worked just fine. Since
I *thought* I was making a sparkling mead, I tied down the champagne corks
with champagne-cork-wire-thingies: kind of a pain-in-the-ass to do, and
unnecessary, cuz it came out still anyway.

I'd guess caps would be easiest, but make sure they fit your bottles.

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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 13:43:52 EDT
From: Chris Shenton <chris at asylum.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Acid Carboys

On Wed, 5 Jun 91 12:24:06 -0700, ez005426 at pollux.ucdavis.edu (Bret Olmsted) said:

Bret> I am searching for a 6.7 gallon acid carboy.  

Bret> I was wondering if anybody knew of alternative places to buy these
Bret> carboys.  I live in the Bay Area and do not want to travel to far,
Bret> really I would like to mail order it.

I got mine from Colonel John, in Boulder, CO. I don't recall the address,
but he advertises in Zymurgy (or call the information operator there).  It
was under $20 including shipping to DC.

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Date: Thu, 06 Jun 91 14:39:39 EDT
From: David Arnold <davida at syrinx.umd.edu>
Subject: Papazian index

I hadn't noticed this posted before, so I hope this isn't a repeat.

If you buy a copy of Papazian's book now, you should get the index
with it.  Mine came on what looked like a xeroxed insert of about
four pages.  I haven't compared it to the Postscript version in the
archives, but it's nice to know that we don't have to rely on the
'homegrown' version anymore (for new buyers).  Of course, it's too
late to help all those who bought it before...

David Arnold 

Inet: davida at syrinx.umd.edu 
UUCP: uunet!syrinx.umd.edu!davida     

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Date: Thu, 06 Jun 91 15:42:37 -0500
From: dbreiden at mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Subject: Use of sugar

David Taylor (I think) asks what good and bad experience we've had
with using sugar in our brews.  Here's my bit:

I've had mediocre experience, and striking experience.  The mediocre stuff
was beer that wasn't half bad, but not quite as good as what I make now.
The best thing about homebrew is that one's first efforts are really good
even if the recipes use a lot of sugar -- the freshness must compensate.

One very stiking batch was a pale ale.  My brew-partner and I used a
fair amount of cane sugar in the batch.  The stuff was awfull for quite a 
while.  I think the yeast was partly to blame, but the stuff smelled and
tasted almost like apple juice for a good 5 weeks.  But once that went
away, and it did, what remained was a clean, refreshing, beautiful beer.

People have come forth and admitted to using sugar in their brews with
good results.  It just creates a beer with different characteristics --
and isn't that what homebrewing is all about?

- --Danny

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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 17:28:16 -0500
From: peterson at ddd.prepnet.com (Mike Peterson)
Subject: Trouble with trub, crystal malt


	Hi.  I've got a couple of questions for you gurus out in homebrew land.
I am an intermediate extract/speciality grain brewer who has been making some
tasty (IMHO) brews for a while but needs some pointers on technique so that I 
can completely RELAX!  I am having a bit of trouble removing the trub and 
hop bits before adding my wort to the primary.  I typically add 1/2 tsp. of 
Irish moss 15 minutes before the end of the boil to aid the hot break and 
cool the wort by placing my brew pot in a sink full of cold water.  The 
funnel I use for transfering the wort to the carboy has a fine screen in 
it for catching particulate matter.  Upon pouring the wort through the screen,
the screen becomes immediately clogged and I spend 20-30 minutes transferring
the wort as I must continually pause to scrape the the screen clean.  Though 
I'm not worried, I am concerned about exposing my wort to the air for so long.
I also find I am getting lower starting gravities because so much wort is
caught up in the trub and hop bits.  Is there a simple way around my problem?

	I am thinking of building a simple immersion wort chiller as I've seen 
dicussed in this digest, in the hope that more efficent cooling will 
precipitate trub better.  I am also thinking of placing my hop pellets in a
homemade hop bag made from some cheese cloth.  Will this be alright?  Does
using a hop bag decrease hop utilization?  Hop aroma?  Enquiring minds want to
know!

	On a different matter, does anybody know the approximate degrees
Lovibond (sp?) rating of crystal malt.  The stuff I have been using is making
my beers darker than I like and I was wondering if I got a bad batch or 
something?

	Sorry if any of theses questions have been previously discussed.
Thanks in advance for the advice.


						Mike Peterson



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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 14:34:29 PDT
From: smithey at esosun.css.gov (Brian Smithey)
Subject: Mashing Crystal and Cara-Pils Malts?

On Wed, 5 Jun 1991 11:12:21 EDT,
Marc Rouleau <mer6g at fuggles.acc.Virginia.EDU> said:

Marc> Dave Miller claims in TCHOHB that you should mash all special
Marc> malts to extract everything from them.  He says that the processes
Marc> that produce crystal and dextrin malts do not convert all of the
Marc> starch.  Merely steeping them wastes potential extraction and,
Marc> because of the unconverted starch in the boil, reduces the clarity
Marc> of the beer.

Marc> On the other hand, won't mashing convert all those dextrins
Marc> into simple sugars that yeast like?  If so, what happens to the
Marc> rich mouth feel and sweetness that these malts are intended to
Marc> produce?

I got interested in this during the last discussion, and
did some more reading on it.  I should probably go back
and read some more before I open my mouth (for fear of
sticking my foot in it), but here goes ...

I think there are a couple of things that keep you from
converting "all those dextrins" into fermentable sugars.
First of all, mash temperature will have a lot to do with
how fermentable your wort is.  A higher temperature mash
will leave you with more unfermentables, as the enzymes
are denatured by heat over time.  I think the beta(?)-amylase
(Papazian's "nibbler") stops working at a lower temperature,
and I would think that this is the enzyme that makes most
of the fermentables.  (sorry if I've got alpha- and beta-
amylase mixed up, go check Papazian).  This is why a hotter
mash will give you fewer fermentables, and a fuller bodied
beer from the unfermentable dextrins.

Also, (here's where I get hazy) I think there are dextrin
configurations that alpha- and beta-amylase cannot break
down.  I think these "limit dextrins" are different for
each of the enzymes.  So while you're mashing, you've
got a couple of things keeping it from going too far:
some of the dextrins get in a configuration where the
a- and/or b-amylase can't do anything to them, and the
heat is destroying the capability of the enzymes to break
down the dextrins that they CAN still work on.

Brian
- --
Brian Smithey / SAIC, Geophysics Division / San Diego CA
smithey at esosun.css.gov  -  uunet!seismo!esosun!smithey

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Date:    Thu, 6 Jun 1991 18:52:31 EDT
From: IOCONNOR at SUNRISE.ACS.SYR.EDU
Subject: How to get "Bombed" on Homebrew. (resubmit from #646)

OK, so you thought by my header, that I meant drunk when I said
"bombed."  Well I got you to read this.
 
This weekend i got bombed by my own beer bottles.  Luckily I wasn't
there when it happened, but it could've been pretty bad.  One bottle
exploded in the case containers I keep my bottled brew in.  So I
cleaned all the bottleh. I rlla
I wasn't home!
 
A couple of weeks ago I asked about ending SG's of 1026 for an extract
ale.  I used M&F premium to make this brew, and I added only crystal
and spray malt to it.  My friend said that it tried to ferment more in
the bottle, and this caused them to explode.  I waited almost twoavstpermti. hAny help would be appreciated.
 
If anyone wants this recipe to take revenge on someone, email me.
 
Kieran
 
IOCONNOR at SUNRISE (bitnet)
IOCONNOR at SUNRISE.ACS.SYR.EDU (internet)

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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 16:30 PST
From: STEPHENS at CMS1.llnl.gov
Subject: Homebrewers in Morgantown, WV?

I'm moving to Morgantown, WV in about a month.  Any homebrewers there?  How
about homebrew supplies and homebrew groups?  (Direct email response is fine.)

One other note: I, too, did not receive #646.  Has anyone sent it to the
archives yet?  (It wasn't there on 6/6.)  Also, maybe someone could post it
to rec.food.drink on usenet.

Thanks in advance.

Jimmy Stephens (stephens at cms1.llnl.gov or stephens at tq5000.llnl.gov)

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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 07:53:10 PDT
From: sherwood at adobe.com (Geoffrey Sherwood)
Subject: heretic again

Dave Taylor wonders:
 -
>I am wondering how the commercials can use sugar and produce light but
>clean tasting, relatively high alcohol beers, when if I use sugar I
>often get estery cider flavours that cause me to tip the batch out.

In particular he wonders about how the can use cane sugar.  My bet: they
don't.  I bet they use corn sugar (or corn syrup, which I believe contains
the same sugar).  This mailing list has a strong phobia about using sugar
in homebrew.  I don't.  I use it in every batch and I never get cidery flavors.
I owe this to two things:

NEVER USE CANE SUGAR (or beet sugar) because this contains sucrose which is
only partially fermentable.  A friend made his first batch using sucrose --
very cidery.  Corn sugar is dextrose (which I believe is just a commercial
name for glucose) which is fully fermentable.

Ferment cool.  I ferment at about 60 degrees F.  I did notice some very off
tastes when I fermented at 80F.  Chest freezers with Hunter AirStats do
wonders!

CAVEAT: I can only speak for extract/adjunct brewing, but I really don't see
why mashing would be any different with respect to sugar.

	geoff sherwood

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Date:    Thu, 6 Jun 1991 20:28:19 CDT
From: PENMAN at CPDFO1.TAMU.EDU

SUBSCRIBE HOMEBREW Bob Penman

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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1991 11:43:49 EDT
From: hplabs!ames!rutgers!zoo.toronto.edu!eci386!drk (David King)
Subject: the recipe book

Has anyone in the Toronto/Ontario region picked up the recipe
book? If so could you let me know and I'll arrange to have a copy
(only one :-) forwarded. Thanks.

- -- 
Dave King (drk at eci386.UUCP)
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy


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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1991 12:14:10 EDT
From: hplabs!ames!rutgers!zoo.toronto.edu!eci386!drk (David King)
Subject: sunlight and beer

> From: rmm at apollo.hp.com
> Subject: sunlight and beer
> 
> 	I have a question...  When does sunlight stop threatening beer? 

When the beer is in yur belly :-)

- -- 
Dave King (drk at eci386.UUCP)
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy


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Date:         Thu, 06 Jun 91 23:38:05 EDT
From: Joe Uknalis <UKNALIS at VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      two questions


Has anyone ever seen a definition for "quonchologus" (p.38 CJOHB)???
It's not in OED, suprise.

I haven't looked but is there anything on GEnie similar to the homebrew
network??

Thanks,

Joe
 (GEnie  -- J.Uknalis)

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Date: Thu,  6 Jun 91 18:18:22 CST
From: < at hpfcla.fc.hp.com, at cdp.igc.org:pals at inland.com>
Subject: Priming with honey

If I prime with honey, how much do I use to be equivalent to, say,
3/4 cup of corn sugar?  My first guess would be about 1/2 cup,
but does anybody know?

Randy Pals
pals at inland.com

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Date:         Fri, 07 Jun 91 00:32:22 CST
From: Rob <C08926RC at WUVMD.Wustl.Edu>
Subject:      Supplies in St. Louis

Here's another supply store for you, this one in St. Louis.

St. Louis Wine & Beermaking
7352 Manchester
Suite 100
Maplewood, MO  63143
(314)644-4664

Representative prices:

Used soda kegs             - $25.00
Rotokeg/Rotosphere         -  65.00
Grolsch bottles, case      -   8.00
Munton & Fison Hopped      -  12.49
Saaz Hops Pellets, 1/2 oz. -   1.39

They seem to have a wide selection of other extracts, hops (pellets and
fresh), wine grape concentrates, and equipment.  They accept MC & Visa,
all orders shipped UPS - minimum s & h fee of 2.50.


Rob

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #654, 06/07/91
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