---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Thanks and a mead question. ("DRCV06::GRAHAM")
  Yeast repitching/conditioning (John Bates)
  Mashing Crystal and Cara-Pils Malts? (Marc Rouleau)
  Brewpubs in eastern Iowa (Fritz Keinert)
  Re:  Fresh Beer (Chris Shenton)
  Things to do in LA? (John Friedman)
  Re: cream soda in HBD #652 (Jim Grady)
  sunlight and beer (rmm)
  NY, NJ, PA, CT brewclub members??? (Stephen Russell)
  malty ale recipe search (Stephen Russell)
  Fresh Beer and _Under the Influence_ (Chris Carlisle)
  Acid Carboys (Bret Olmsted)
  Really fresh ingredients & alehoof (yes, more questions) (Carl West x4449)
  Correction to "Samuel Adams" posting in Homebrew Digest #652 (Gene Schultz)
  Alternate Beverage massive price increase 
  Beer with real malt taste (David Taylor)
  eugene brewpubs (cwilson)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmi at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmi at hplabs.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 91 08:27:00 EDT
From: "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <graham%drcv06.decnet at drcvax.af.mil>
Subject: Thanks and a mead question.

Many thanks to those who sent me copies of issue #646.  I hope I send on 
copies to all who asked me to send it to them if I got it.

Now, about mead.  I'm starting a still mead which will probably require at 
least a year of aging after bottling.  Is it best to bottle this kind of 
mead with caps, or corks.  Since pressure isn't the issue, would corks be 
better to allow minimal oxygen transfer as in wine or should I use plain 
old crown caps and seal the mead away from the elements.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Dan
"Beer made with the Derry air."


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 5 Jun 91 09:10:48 MDT
From: bates at noaacrd.Colorado.EDU (John Bates)
Subject: Yeast repitching/conditioning

I know the Forum went around on the subject of repitching yeast a few weeks
ago, but I have just had a very interesting experience.  We are going through
the spring/summer transition here in BOulder, and I decided to try one last
lager before switching to ales for the summer.  I made a Marzen recipe and
used Mev high temperature yeast that I had started.  The package was quite old
(about a year, I hadn't caught the date at the store or I wouldn't have purchased it) and took about 5 days for the package to swell up.  I then started it in about 16 oz a day before brewing, pitched, and had good fermentation in about 24 hours.  After a normal fermentation, that batch was kegged, I repitched the yeast into two more different batches, and conditioned the first batch for about 2 weeks.  Upon tasting the original batch, something wasn't quite right...not undrinkable, just not all it should be.  Well I was
supposed to bring this batch to our monthly club meeting...and did with some trepidation.  Tasters there agreed it was probably the yeast, but the batch wasn't that off in flavor because the keg was empty by the end of the night.
Charlie P. mentioned that they had biologists look at a number of yeast strains and MeV was noted for having some strange critters in the yeast.

Now the other two batches from the repitched yeast are ready to drink...and to my joy there is no longer an off yeast taste.  Both of these batches are really quite tasty!  So IMHO, yeast does improve after repitching once or twice.  I know this is also the predominant view of the hard core homebrewers in our club.  

Regards, John Bates (Norman's evil twin ==> no vacancy...)

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1991 11:12:21 EDT
From: Marc Rouleau <mer6g at fuggles.acc.Virginia.EDU>
Subject: Mashing Crystal and Cara-Pils Malts?

This question has come up recently, and I've also seen it in the
archives, but I've yet to see a really convincing answer one way
or another.

Dave Miller claims in TCHOHB that you should mash all special
malts to extract everything from them.  He says that the processes
that produce crystal and dextrin malts do not convert all of the
starch.  Merely steeping them wastes potential extraction and,
because of the unconverted starch in the boil, reduces the clarity
of the beer.

On the other hand, won't mashing convert all those dextrins
into simple sugars that yeast like?  If so, what happens to the
rich mouth feel and sweetness that these malts are intended to
produce?

I believe that I've had good results mashing crystal and dextrin
malts, but I'm new to brewing and would like to hear about this
from more experienced brewers.  Can anyone confirm (or deny) Miller's
view with a technical explanation?  Has anyone tried it both ways?

    -- Marc Rouleau

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 05 Jun 91 10:19:01 CDT
From: Fritz Keinert <keinert at iastate.edu>
Subject: Brewpubs in eastern Iowa

In digest #652, Mark Stroup <ms56+ at andrew.cmu.edu> asked about
breweries and brewpubs in eastern Iowa.

I only know of one brewpub in all of Iowa; they were only made legal a
year or two ago. It is in Iowa City and is called "Fitzpatrick's". I
was only there once, but liked it a lot. A second one in Des Moines is
supposed to be in the works.

There are some more breweries I know of, but they all make typical
American beer, in my opinion, anyway. This includes: 

   - A brewery in the Amana Colonies (called "Mill Creek", I think)

   - The "Dubuque Star" brewery in Dubuque, which is so small that it 
     brews from malt extract; they survive by putting various labels
     on their beer, so that pubs or restaurants can have their
     "house brand".

   - A brewery called "Foecking", which is run entirely by women and
     aimed at the yuppie drinker. I am not quite sure where that one is;
     Quad Cities maybe.

Anyway, I would recommend Fitzpatrick's, but not much else.

Fritz Keinert <keinert at iastate.edu>

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 5 Jun 91 11:17:34 EDT
From: Chris Shenton <chris at asylum.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re:  Fresh Beer

On Tuesday, 4 Jun 1991 10:40:45 EDT, m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo) said:

John> I have found that 1 week-old beer brewed with liquid yeast is
John> much, much better than the 1 week-old beer I made with dry
John> packets.  I now regularly drink the beer young and enjoy it and
John> remark on the changes that occur as it ages.

By ``young'' do you mean ``1 week-old''? After one week, is the beer
adequately carbonated? or are you doing more authentic (pronounced
``flat'') English-style ales?

What changes did you make to your brewing procedure -- or recipes -- which
improved your relatively-young beer? Inquiring minds want to know!

As an aside, now that I keg, I find my beer lasts only a fraction of the
time it used too -- not that it spoils, but my friends come over and hose
it down in under a week! :-(   I rarely have time to taste it changing.

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 5 Jun 91 10:31:52 -0600
From: John Friedman <friedman at col.hp.com>
Subject: Things to do in LA?

I'll be in LA for a week in mid-August for a friend's wedding, and I'm
looking for things to do, e.g., bands to see, clubs to check out,
brewpubs to drink at, etc...  Any help would be truely appreciated!
Please reply directly to my email address.

Thanks!!!
John
friedman at col.hp.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 5 Jun 91 13:04:22 EDT
From: Jim Grady <jimg at hpwald.wal.hp.com>
Subject: Re: cream soda in HBD #652

I am a recent subscriber so I didn't see the first request but I am also
interested in any cream soda recipes from scratch so I would vote for posting
any recipes.

If anybody is interested, Ihor Slabicky mentioned that:
> Canada (at least Montreal and the southern part of Quebec province) has
> a soda called 'Cream Soda' or in French 'Soda Mousse'.  This is a clear
> soda which tastes remarkably like cream (as in dairy cream) and has a
> long lasting head (for soda that is).  The Canadian cream soda uses as
> an ingredient either saponin or quialla (sorry about the spellings) which
> is an extract from plants that is used to make soap - I guess just a bit
> in the soda makes for the wonderful head you get.

Quialla [sic, but I don't know how to spell it either] extract is also in
the heading liquids available for homebrewers - to increase the head
retention, not to give it one in the first place.  I've never used them
so I cannot report on how well they work.  Has anybody else tried them?
Are they yet another foreign object to keep out of my beer?
- --
Jim Grady
Hewlett-Packard Co.
175 Wyman St.
Waltham, MA 02254
Internet: jimg at hpwala.wal.hp.com
FAX:   (617) 890-5451

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 5 Jun 91 13:50:46 EDT 
From: rmm at apollo.hp.com
Subject: sunlight and beer



	I have a question...  When does sunlight stop threatening beer? 
      (especially homebrew).  According to Papazian, strong sunlight can
      ruin the flavor of beer in a matter of minutes.  For this reason, 
      I make sure that my carboys stay out of the sun and I only use brown
      bottles.  I noticed, though, that at least a couple of excellant 
      quality beers like Newcastle brown ale, and Sam Smith's Oatmeal 
      Stout come in clear bottles.  I would guess that these people know 
      what they're doing, and that they put their beer in clear bottles 
      because it is not at risk.  Can someone shed a little more light 
      (ow, that hurt :-) on this for me?  Thanks.

						-ralph 
						rmm at apollo.hp.com

		( do I need a disclaimer for such a wimpy question? ) 


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Jun 91 16:31:23 EDT
From: srussell at snoopy.msc.cornell.edu (Stephen Russell)
Subject: NY, NJ, PA, CT brewclub members???

Greetings again!

Our homebrew club (the Ithaca Brewer's Union) is organizing a trip to Vernon 
Valley, NJ, the weekend of July 27-28.  We will be there for "Germanfest", one
of their many summer activities, but of more importance for subscribers to this
digest, we will be getting a tour of the Clement Brewing Company (formerly the
Vernon Valley Brewing Co.) courtesy of owner James Clement.  The brewery is
one of the few in the world that uses wooden casks for fermenting.

Anyhow, James has said that the tour is open to all who are interested.  I have
been trying to get in touch with regional brewclubs, in NY, NJ, PA, and CT,
and would like to hear from you if you are a member of a club in one of these
states.  However, I also wanted to let others know as well.  I figure that we 
could have an ersatz "conference", simply meaning a friendly get-together or 
something for all the homebrewers who show up.

Well, let me know if you are interested (please e-mail directly).

STEVE

srussell at snoopy.msc.cornell.edu



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Jun 91 16:21:20 EDT
From: srussell at snoopy.msc.cornell.edu (Stephen Russell)
Subject: malty ale recipe search

Tried to submit this in the missing #646, but here goes again.....

I would like to try and make a malty ale, such as Fuller's ESB.  Do any of
you have recipes I could use??  One common approach to making a beer maltier,
in both aroma and flavor, is to use Munich malt.  However, I assume that Brit-
ish brewers use British ingredients (pale ale, crystal, amber, chocolate, and 
black malts, roasted and flaked barley, adjuncts, and various sugars like 
Demerara and treacle) and therefore, Fuller's would be devoid of German malts 
like Munich.  So I'm curious as to how they achieve it.  Maybe the darker
sugars come off as malty???  Or maybe using a certain yeast strain?

I am perfectly willing to try recipes that contain Munich malt, since one of 
the neat things about being a homebrewer is the freedom to make German beers 
out of British ingredients and vice versa.  I just wondered how they do it.

Extract, partial mash, all-grain, whatever you've got will be gladly accepted.

Thanks in advance,

STEVE

srussell at snoopy.msc.cornell.edu



Return to table of contents


Date:         Wed, 05 Jun 91 14:30:36 CST
From: Chris Carlisle <C24884CC at WUVMD.Wustl.Edu>
Subject:      Fresh Beer and _Under the Influence_

Our cat accidentally unearthed the last of a hidden cache of homebrew
that my husband had forgotten about, made two years ago.  It was great,
but I don't think it had more than about six more months of life.  It
was almost too smooth!

The St. Louis Post Dispatch is running a series on _Under the Influence_
all this week, with an exerpt per day.  I've been reading it with great
enjoyment.  It's interesting to see which of the brewery's legends are
false.  It was also great to learn of the Busch's Prohibition-era pact
with Al Capone, and to realize that what saved them was _not_ their
diversification into soda, health beverages, etc. as they claim when
you take the tour, but their real estate.  They _owned_ a lot of corner
saloons here in St. Louis and sold them off to gas stations.
Read the book, it's fun!
Chris Carlisle
C24884cc at wuvmd

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 5 Jun 91 12:24:06 -0700
From: ez005426 at pollux.ucdavis.edu (Bret Olmsted)
Subject: Acid Carboys



    I am searching for a 6.7 gallon acid carboy.  I called up Great 
Fermentations of Marin and he said he can not get them in.  He mentioned it 
had something to do with the war and government auctions in Sacremento.  I 
was wondering if anybody knew of alternative places to buy these carboys.  
I live in the Bay Area and do not want to travel to far, really I would 
like to mail order it.  My current one broke and I would like to continue 
brewing.
                            Bret Olmsted
                 InterNet:  bsolmsted at ucdavis.edu
                   BitNet:  bsolmsted at ucdavis
                     UUCP:  ucdavis!bsolmsted
                    GEnie:  G.OLMSTED



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 5 Jun 91 12:36:34 EDT
From: eisen at kopf.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Carl West x4449)
Subject: Really fresh ingredients & alehoof (yes, more questions)

Having gotten my hops plants into the ground very late, I don't expect 
much of a harvest, certainly not enough for more than one batch. I understand 
that drying is necessary for storage, but is it necessary that I dry the hops 
before I use them? or can I use them straight off the vine? The weight will be 
different, but aside from that?

While on the subject of very fresh ingredients, what about putting 
just-germinated barley directly into the mash? crushing it should be fairly 
easy, it seems that it would squish without busting up the husk much at all. 
I assume that by skipping the kilning you'd lose some body and flavor, but 
if you're trying for something light...

Anybody ever used alehoof instead of hops? I'm told that 
that's what is growing all over my yard.

Carl


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 5 Jun 91 15:25:26 PDT
From: gschultz at cheetah.llnl.gov (Gene Schultz)
Subject: Correction to "Samuel Adams" posting in Homebrew Digest #652

Whoever sent e-mail to me inquiring about the possible lack of fermentables
in the Samuel Adams taste alike recipe I posted in Homebrew Digest #652 
caused me to run down to the local homebrew store over lunch.  Guess what--
the Coopers Draught kit is 3.75 lb., not 3.3 lb.  There are .45 lb more 
fermentables than I stated.  Sorry.

                                    ---Gene


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed,  5 Jun 91 12:09:04 CST
From: < at hpfcla.fc.hp.com, at cdp.igc.org:pals at inland.com>
Subject: Alternate Beverage massive price increase

I am an extract brewer, and have always purchased my supplies from
Alternate Beverage.  Generally, I've been happy with them.  Up to now, any
problems I've had with them relate to their growing pains. Their selection
has been good, and prices reasonable.  Their extract recipe packages are
also very convenient. 

However, I just called yesterday to place an order for some extract
recipes, and their prices have *SKYROCKETED*.  Example:  Brown Ale recipe,
was $17.95 in the fall/winter 1990 catalog, is now $22.95!  That's a
27.9% increase!!

The person I talked to on the phone blamed this largely on the U.S.
dollar-British pound exchange rate, as the malt extracts they buy are
British.  Sorry, folks - it doesn't wash.  Here is a table of the
dollar-pound exchange rate over the last year, as quoted in the Wall
Street Journal: 

Date              How many U.S. dollars to buy one British Pound

May 9, 1990                     1.67
Sept. 13, 1990                  1.86
Dec. 19, 1990                   1.93
Jan. 30, 1991                   1.96
March 27, 1991                  1.74
April 25, 1991                  1.69
June 3, 1991                    1.69

So, exchange rates are the same as they were one year ago.  Even in
January of this year, the pound was only 16% higher than it is now.

Besides just to rant and rave, my purpose is to 1) see if anyone has
other information as to what prompted this drastic increase, and 2)
encourage other Alternate customers to let Alternate know how they
feel about this.

Randy Pals
pals at inland.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 15:06 EST
From: David Taylor <DAVID at phillip.edu.au>
Subject: Beer with real malt taste

>From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
>Subject: Re:  Beer with Taste???

>>From: David Taylor <DAVID at phillip.edu.au>

>>Our commercial brewers seem to be able to handle cane sugar
>>well, producing beer devoid of body and flavour yet with 5%
>>alcohol.  When I try to make a similar strength brew without
>>sugar the malt comes through strongly.  So...  why don't *you*
>>use cane sugar?

>I didn't notice a smiley-face here.  If I don't want any malt
>taste, I drink root beer or lemonade.  Why drink beer if it
>doesn't have any taste to it?  If you haven't had a wheat beer,
>you might be surprised at how good it is without much malt
>flavor.

I didn't phrase my query very well - what I meant was an attack on
commercial brewers and praise for homebrew. Homebrewers here in Oz
criticize the products of the large commercial brewers as being low
in flavour while being high in alcohol. When we try to brew our own
all malt beer to 5% v/v alcohol the result is very prominant malt
character.

It is apparent that the big boys are using cane sugar or other cheap
fermentables (brewery watchers have seen the sugar syrup tankers pulling
up to the breweries). Labels are not required to list all ingredients
so mention 'fine quality malt and hops' etc. I understand that one of
the prominent American brands is honest enough to list rice on its label.

I am wondering how the commercials can use sugar and produce light but
clean tasting, relatively high alcohol beers, when if I use sugar I
often get estery cider flavours that cause me to tip the batch out. The
major Melbourne brewer is very protective of its yeast strain which
came from Carlsberg nearly a century ago and has been maintained and
improved over that time. Apparently it is now characterised to ferment
the part malt wort under slight pressure so would not be any good
under homebrew conditions. The resulting mass market beer is excellent
in its *consistency* and clean, slightly grainy, slightly bitter taste,
though it doesn't suit most homebrewers who've tasted real malt and
hops in a brew.

Aussie homebrewers have been mainly influenced by English publications -
Dave Line, Winemaker magazine and a few others, who just about all use
sugar in their recipes. Hence my comments which were prompted by reading
'The Cat's Meow' - most of the recipes from you lot are all malt. Those
that use other sugars include honey, dextrose (which I believe ferments
cleanly) or fruit. I love it! There's more variety and sheer INTEREST in
TCM than in ten 'Brewing Beers Like Those You Buy'. I'm changing my ways
as a result of seeing how American homebrewing has advanced - my sanitizing
methods have improved, I'm leaving the sugar on the shelf, and I've been
inspired with enough recipe ideas to keep me going a lifetime!

So, what I meant to ask was, how did you arrive at the all malt position?
What bad experiences have you had with cheap fermentables? Or good ones?

John, I didn't say that I drink beer with no malt taste (unless someone
else is buying!), as I said, once you've had a real, malty homebrew,
there's nothing quite the same!

P.S. I didn't get HBD 646 either

Watch those boiling kettles!     [the above is the opinion of David Taylor]

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 5 Jun 91 22:37:38 -0700
From: cwilson at cs.uoregon.edu
Subject: eugene brewpubs


Andy Kurtz <ak35+ at andrew.cmu.edu> asks
>i'm going to be in Eugene OR next week for a few days and would like to
>know the state of beer there -- bars, micros, etc...

We have three brewpubs.  The first two are part of the MacMenamin (sp?)
chain (big in the Portland area).

 -  High Street Brewery & Cafe
*Beer Art:  They carry a nice range of their own brews.  The standard 
bearers are Crystal (self explanatory) and Terminator (industrial strength
stout).  Usually one can find about 5 others, including some strange
ones: Ruby (raspberry), blueberry, or rose petal.  Their beers are pleasant
and not at all objectionable.  As well, they will have about 10 beers
on tap representing other Northwest micros.
*Ambiance: An old house festooned with deadhead paraphernalia.  Very nice
patio in the back with tables under the maples.  Great on a hot day
(here >70).

 -  East 19th Street Cafe
*Beer Art: As above.
*Ambiance:  Former submarine sandwich joint converted to a merrye olde
englande pub by a group of new agers with florescent paint.  In the 
student ghetto next to the track stadium.  Our favorite for department
meetings Friday afternoon.

 -  Steelhead Brewery
*Beer Art:  Rather disappointing, but since they're in their start-up
phase I should withhold judgement.  They carry the usual range - pale,
amber, stout, plus a special (bock, etc.).  Palatable, but a bit harsh.
*Ambiance:  Nice decor - woodwork and brick (nearly a fern bar).  Fewer
students than the other two; more interesting food.

Chris Wilson
Dept. of Computer and Information Science  
University of Oregon


Return to table of contents



End of HOMEBREW Digest #653, 06/06/91
*************************************
-------

---