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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re: Homebrew Digest #663 (June 20, 1991) (Petr Prasil)
  Miller (beer?) (IOCONNOR)
  Re: Half-filled bottles (Bill Thacker)
  Re: Rust in stainless kettles (HBD  665) (Jean Hunter)
  RE Half-filled Bottles (Michael Mays)
  Gorky9s special (Alex_M._Stein.osbu_south)
  Belgian Beers & Mike Sharp (hersh)
  beer quality (Brian Bliss)
  Size of Blow-by Tubing Needed (Dave Durkin)
  Rabbits & Hops (hersh)
  consistency, extract vs. grain (hersh)
  Re: consistency (Doug Latornell)
  Request for the HBD (John Stanford GEOACOUSTIC)
  Fox address (Marty Albini)


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Date:         Mon, 24 Jun 91 10:11:48 MDT
From: Petr Prasil <UNCLE%CSEARN at pucc.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Homebrew Digest #663 (June 20, 1991)

Laura,  (blommel at sask.usask.ca)
    I'm sorry, I have never been in L. A. and I don't know any brewpub
in L. A.
But I know a lot of beautifullk brewpubs in Prague, Czechoslovakia,
especially in Zizkov and Brevnov part.

Petr

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Date:    Mon, 24 Jun 1991 8:52:54 EDT
From: IOCONNOR at SUNRISE.ACS.SYR.EDU
Subject: Miller (beer?)

To add to the debate about Miller beer.  I had a genuine draft this 
weekend, although it came from a bottle.  I happened to look at the 
label and one of the ingredients was cereal as one of the HBD'ers said 
the other day.  So that answers that question.

Now, here's another--what the * at #$ is "cold filtered"?  ANd can 
someone tell me how beers are made non-alcoholic?  I think boiling and 
osmosis are two--am I right?

Kieran

IOCONNOR at SUNRISE.ACS.SYR.EDU (internet)
IOCONNO at SUNRISE (bitnet)

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Date: Mon, 24 Jun 91 9:39:23 EDT
From: Bill Thacker <hplabs!hp-lsd.cos.hp.com!cbema!wbt>
Subject: Re: Half-filled bottles

> From: cjh at vallance.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
> Subject: re Half filled bottles
 
>    These numbers also say that a half-bottle should generate 364ml of CO2;
> that's just about 12 volume ounces, so if none of the CO2 dissolved before
> it was all generated (not likely), you'd get about 2 atmospheres, ~29 psi,
> in the 6-ounce headspace of a half bottle. That's not a lot of pressure
> in a reusable bottle; you're more likely to get flat beer because there's
> not enough pressure to persuade all of the C02 to dissolve.

Perhaps the source of this "half filled bottles are bombs" rumor is the old
priming technique that modern brewers now avoid; a small measure of sugar
in each bottle.  In that case, the volume of CO2 generated in each bottle
would be the same regardless of whether the bottle was full or half-full;
the only difference would be how much of the CO2 was dissolved in the
liquid.  The half-full bottles could not dissolve as much CO2 as the full
bottles, so more CO2 would remain as gas, and pressure in the bottle
would increase.  

If this guess is right, then those of us who mix the priming sugar with the
beer before bottling should never have to worry about partly-filled
bottles exploding; for us, the volume of CO2 produced during conditioning
is proportional to the amount of liquid, so that underfilled bottles should
actually develop less pressure than full ones.

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker	AT&T Network Systems - Columbus      wbt at cbnews.att.com



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Date:         Mon, 24 Jun 91 10:12:16 EDT
From: Jean Hunter <MS3Y at CORNELLA.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:      Re: Rust in stainless kettles (HBD  665)

Rust in a stainless kettle?  Yes, unfortunately.  The bleach/water solution
generates active oxygen and leaves a chloride residue.  The oxygen is what
combines with your steel to make rust, and the chloride is a powerful
catalyst for rusting (which is why things rust much faster in seawater than
fresh water).  I don't know what grade of stainless is used for kegs (can
anyone tell me?  would it be #304?) but I've seen rust on #316 stainless,
the most corrosion-resistant, at mechanical stress points on a stirrer used
in saturated KCl solution.
   I recommend that you try to remove the rust deposit and buff out the pits.
The keg should be fine after that.  To prevent future rust switch to a
different sanitizer.  I have heard that chlorine bleach solutions lose their
sanitizing power after a few days anyway.  Happy brewing -- Jean

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Date: Mon, 24 Jun 91 12:09 EDT
From: Michael Mays <MAYS at jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu>
Subject: RE Half-filled Bottles

Hi there,

I am a pre-novice brewer (OK, I have never brewed a batch of beer in my 
life, ...yet).  But I do know a little chemistry.  With regards to the 
half filled bottle controversy I believe Chip Hitchcock (HBD665) is on 
the right path.  The amount of CO2 produced is going to be a function of 
the amount of sugar (corn syrup) in the bottle.  I do not believe that  
~29 psi (gauge) pressure is a normal pressure for a bottle of beer (it 
seems a little high to me) but I would not subject returnable bottles to 
those pressures. Not all of the sugar is consumed I believed.  And as 
mentioned some of the CO2 is dissolved in the beer.

To within a headspace of 0.25-1.5 inch (or more formally oz), the volume 
of the headspace doesn't dominate the finale pressure of the bottled 
brew.  As I understand it with such a headspace, the pressure of the 
CO2, the ethyl alcohol (EtOH) content and the type of yeast will control 
the pressure.  The CO2 and EtOH concentrations are the feedback to the 
yeast which tell it to stop growing.  So when a certain concentration of 
these chemicals are reached the yeast stops (slows down) production.  
But given a much larger headspace of 6oz the yeast may eat up all the 
sugar before the CO2 and EtOH reach their limiting (desired) 
concentrations and hence a 'flatter' beer.  The mechanism of Richard 
Stueven (HBD665) also comes into play at this point.

Al Taylor (HBD665) points out that in aerobic 'metabolization' of any 
six carbon sugar, six molecules of CO2 would be produce.  This is true, 
but I thought yeast was an anaerobe.  Interesting though is that 6oz of 
air (1.2oz of O2: 0.002 moles) would produce an increase of 3.7psi under 
such 'ideal' aerobic conditions.  The number of moles of sugar used is 
about 0.015 moles/bottle.  If you add 0.075 cups too much of corn syrup 
(hard to see if using a 1 cup measuring cup) you are introducing a 
potential equivalent pressure increase in terms of ideal anaerobic CO2 
production.  Also, beer does compress, only very little.  And hence when 
it decompresses, it moves only very little.  The net effect is the same 
as described by Al.

Well thats what I think,
Michael Mays
Mays at jhuvms.bitnet
Johns Hopkins Chemistry

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Date: 	Mon, 24 Jun 1991 09:26:27 PDT
From: Alex_M._Stein.osbu_south at xerox.com
Subject: Gorky9s special

Just to clarify something from #665 (for those in LA):
Tom Hamilton (tlh at venera.isi.edu) must have misheard the Gorky's radio ad.  The
scoop is one dollar pints from 9PM to 2AM, Sunday through Thursday.

And now, please return to the discussion of exploding half-filled bottles.

Alex Stein
astein.osbu_south at xerox.com

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Date: Mon, 24 Jun 91 12:31:16 EDT
From: hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Belgian Beers & Mike Sharp



Many thanks to Mike for a job well done

JaH


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Date: Mon, 24 Jun 91 11:36:44 CDT
From: bliss at csrd.uiuc.edu (Brian Bliss)
Subject: beer quality


> Anheuser Busch ... choose to exercise this enviable skill in th epursuit
> thoroughly lackluster beer.

Does anybody remember a beer called "Andeker"?  I beleive it was
an AB product.  I haven't seen it for around 8 years now, but the
last time I tried it, it turned my then-immature teenage taste buds
on.  I toured AB in St. Louis earlier this spring.  Noone knew
anything about it.


>'... notice that nearly 1/2 of the recipes in the Winners Circle are extract
> based...'

Notice that they nearly all use Wyeast liquid yeast.

I just tried two batches using Wyeast: Munich beer (using the Munich beer
yeast), which is fermenting away in my fridge at 32 F (also my first all
grain batch), and an extract/specialty grain stout/porter (using German
Ale yeast), which is fermenting in a garbage can of water at 75F.
(My roomate keeps turning the A.C. off, and opening the windows).
The amazing thing is that they seem to be fermenting at the same rate!
i.e. It's been nearly 3 weeks, and the Ale still has Krausen on it.  
I can see why the Munich beer is going slowly in the cold (in fact,
it's going quite well for 32 F), but the Ale ...

cheers!

bb


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Date: Mon, 24 Jun 91 13:54 EDT
From: durk at dialogic.com (Dave Durkin)
Subject: Size of Blow-by Tubing Needed


I'm about to order a carboy and need to know what size of 'blow-by' tubing
I need to order.  Is it 1-1/2 inches?  I want the hose to fit snugly
into the mouth of the carboy without using a rubber stopper. 

Thanks in advance.

Dave Durkin
 
Dave Durkin         |  "If Abe Lincoln were alive  |  Dialogic Corp.
durk at dialogic.com   |   today, he'd turn over in   |  Parsippany, NJ 07054
durk at dialogic.uucp  |   his grave" -- Gerald Ford  |  (201) 334-1268 x105

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Date: Mon, 24 Jun 91 14:01:14 EDT
From: hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Rabbits & Hops



From the "Gods Honest Truth" category

When I was a senior at the University of Rochester one of the most bizarre
incidents I have ever been witness to occurred. I was hanging with my
girlfriend and her roomate in the lounge of their suite. They were taking care
of their roomates bunny while their roomate was away. They let the bunny out of
the cage to roam around the suite. The 3 of us had just opened a few Molson
Golden, and mine was about 1/4 full. I set it down on the floor next to my
chair, and to the absolute amazement of all of us, the bunny hopped on over,
grabbed the top of the bottle with it's little bunny teeth, tossed it's head
back, thus emptying the bottle in one gulp, dropped the bottle and hopped away.

Now I know I wasn't crazy or halucinating as 2 other people saw this happen and
burst out laughing with me at the same time. Me being the fiend I am tried to
get the Rabbit to repeat this behavior so we could video tape it and get it on
David Letterman's Stupid Pet Tricks. Well we couldn't get the rabbit to drink
from the bottle again, but we did notice it loved beer, especially a hoppy beer
like Molson's Golden. BTW My girlfriends roomate never found out about this,
she didn't have much of a sense of humor :-)...


I've heard that cutting off the lower 1-2 feet of leaves keeps animals away and
helps prevent mold or fungus from getting to the plants.


JaH


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Date: Mon, 24 Jun 91 14:25:03 EDT
From: hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: consistency, extract vs. grain



Al:
Notice I said state to state, not country to country. I'm sure Canadian tastes
being different, and these beers having to be rpoduced by law in Canada, in the
province they're consumed in, they are surely brewed to different recipes there.


My observations/feelings on the extract vs grain issue are these;

1) Lots of Competition winners are extracts
2) Most of the brewers I know who make grain beers make GREAT beer most of the
time
3) The more experienced brewers I know who make extract beers make GREAT beer
most of the time

I would summarize it like this:
While it is possible to make really good beers with extracts, it takes a little
more skill/knowledge/care to do so. I think the AVERAGE grain brewer makes
better beers than the AVERAGE extract brewer. I also think the AVERAGE grain
brewer has more experience and puts more time/care into the brew than the
AVERAGE extract brewer. My experience/observation indicates that the choice of
grain/extract is less critical than the skill of the brewer, though I think
that grain brewers tend to be exposed to more of the variables of the brewing
process and perhaps learn a little more than extract brewers do (again ON THE
AVERAGE, BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE).

Enough of these sweeping, useless generalization s that will almost surely getr
me into trouble :-)...


JaH


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Date: 24 Jun 91 11:24 -0700
From: Doug Latornell <latornel at unixg.ubc.ca>
Subject: Re: consistency

Algis R Korzonas <korz at ihlpl.att.com> writes:
>...
>Now on to my point.  On the topic of U.S. beers tasting the same everywhere,
>I'd like to add another data point.  I had Miller and another U.S. beer in
>Canada two years ago.  Definately *not* the same flavor!  I thought they
>weren't bad at all.  They actually had flavor.  Has anyone had a similar
>experience?  By the way, try Labatt's from Canada and Labatt's purchased
>here side-by-side.  Another big difference!

If you look carefully at a bottle of Miller, Bud, etc. purchased in Canada
you will see (in small print) "brewed under license from Miller (or A-B)
by Labatts (or Molson)" (or words to this effect).  IMHO, Canadian Miller,
Bud, etc. taste just like any other brew from Labatts or Molsons (e.g.
Blue, Export, Canadian, etc.).  In effect, large, commercial Canadian
breweries produce a wide range of almost identical tasting beers with
nationwide consistency in the same way that large, commercial American
breweries do; it's just that the generic taste differs from one side of
the border to the other.

I'll bet that the U.S. versions of Labatts products bear (depending on
local laws, of course) a similar "brewed under license" statement
crediting Miller or someone with producing the flavour you know so
well south of the border... :-)

=====================================================
Doug Latornell
CAM/Robotics Lab --- Mech. Eng. Dept.	 <latornell at mech.ubc.ca>
University of British Columbia		 <latornel at unixg.ubc.ca>
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

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Date: Mon, 24 Jun 91 16:09:48 EDT
From: jdsgeoac at typhoon.saic.com (John Stanford GEOACOUSTIC)
Subject: Request for the HBD

Please start sending me the HBD.  My requests to homebrew-request have not
been answered. Thanks

Hyrum Laney
jdsgeoac at typhoon.saic.com

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Date: Mon, 24 Jun 91 16:30:50 PDT
From: Marty Albini <martya at sdd.hp.com>
Subject: Fox address

	Sorry to do this here but I lost the card the
gentleman gave me at the last Quaff meeting with his name and
address on it, so I'll post this here.

	Foxx Equipment Co.
	955 Decatur St., Unit B
	Denver, CO
	(800) 525-2484
	(303) 573-1766
	(303) 893-3026 (FAX)

	They are a supplier of soda dispensing equipment. If
the gentleman in question could please get in touch with me, I
can apologize for the tardy response.

	To the person with rusty kegs: chlorine bleach eats
stainless. Never never never never soak stainless with bleach
for more than a half hour or so. If you can get the rust
cleaned out, it might be worth your while to repassivate the
metal, but I'd probably just use it and see if a problem
develops.
- --
_______________________________________Marty Albini___________
"If you're bent with artheritis, your bowels have got colitis,
you've gallopin' bollockitis and you're thinkin' it's time ye
died; if you've been a man of action, while you're lyin' there
in traction, you may get some satisfaction thinkin' `Jesus, at
least I tried.'"--Andy M. Stewart
phone    : (619) 592-4177
UUCP     : {hplabs|nosc|hpfcla|ucsd}!hp-sdd!martya
Internet : martya at sdd.hp.com 
US mail  : Hewlett-Packard Co., 16399 W. Bernardo Drive, San Diego CA 92127-1899 USA

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #666, 06/25/91
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