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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  brewpubs in New York City (Marc Light)
  #667 truncations. ("DRCV06::GRAHAM")
  Lambic experiment update (Mike Sharp)
  HBD (STROUD)
  US/Canadian beers, good wishes for the summer. (R. Bradley)
  hop flavor (WJW2)
  Water Treatment for Lagers (John Polstra)
  Aphids aphids everywhere and not a hop to drink (Norm Hardy)
  Zymurgy  at  3AM, Harvesting Hops (hersh)
  Zymurgy  at  3AM, Harvesting Hops (hersh)
  Hops for Sierra Nevada PA (Ken Ellinwood)
  Re: Beer Tastes (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Cornell Homebrewers (Tom Dimock)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmi at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmi at hplabs.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


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Date: Mon, 01 Jul 91 03:19:02 -0400
From: Marc Light <light at cs.rochester.edu>
Subject: brewpubs in New York City


I'm sure this request has been made before but I didn't save the
answer (sorry): could someone send me a list of the brew pubs and
breweries in New York City?  I seem to remember a pub named
Brewsky's that was highly recommended.  Does it still exist? 
Thanks.

			Marc

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Date: 1 Jul 91 07:35:00 EDT
From: "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <graham%drcv06.decnet at drcvax.af.mil>
Subject: #667 truncations.

Did anyone ever get a complete copy of issue #667?  I've checked both the 
Miami and the Wang servers and several other digesters and all received a 
truncated copy.  If anyone got a complete copy, please send it to me and 
I'll be happy to redistribute it to others who wish it.

Thanks very much in advance to any kind soul who has this complete copy.  

Dan Graham
Beer made with the Derry air.


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Date: Mon, 1 Jul 91 7:35:37 EDT
From: msharp at hawk.ulowell.edu (Mike Sharp)
Subject: Lambic experiment update


Hello All,

I heard from Martin Lodhal that some of you have been wondering about the
lambic experiments.  So here goes...

Currently there are three test batches.  I've made two and Martin has made one.

Test Batch #1 --
	Started back in January.  This is 60%malt 40%malted wheat fermented
	in a 15 gallon oak primary and a 15 gallon oak secondary.
	This was innoculated with Wyeast bavarian wheat (it seemed like the
	thing to do at the time) followed by Pediococcus cerevisiae and
	then Brettanomyces bruxellensis.
Test Batch #2 --
	Started about 1 (2?) months ago.   Again, a 60%/40% mix, but
	fermented in glass this time.  Wyeast European was used for the
	ferment, followed by Pedio and Brett as with #1.
Martin's batch --
	ummm, I'm not sure what he did... probably something simmilar.
	He'll have to tell you when he gets back from vaccation.

A few weeks before the conference (AHA) I made a pseudo-gueuze by blending
my two test batches 50/50.  It is currently a redish-golden-wierd color.
Sort of like a light honey with just a hint of red.  Carbonation is extremely
slight, but its been increasing as the Brett. works at what is left of the
fermentables.  The nose is  mostly of oak, but not unpleasantly so.  The
taste is a combination of oak, lactic acid, and a sort of subtle fruityness.
There is a subtle hint of hops (if you look for it) as well as a slight
malty flavor too.  There isn't any one dominant flavor, many different ones.
I think this turned out remarkable well given (a) a new oak barrel and
(b) having almost no clue about making this when I started.  Of course this
really won't be ready for a year or so, but its already showing promise.

I can hardly wait to start the next batches given the result of these batches.
I should be adding some Moreno cherries to a few gallons of test batch #1
in a week or two, and once my _28_ gallon brewery is functional (gloat)
I'll be back to using the cask.  (it took me 20 straight hours the last
time I made a batch in the cask -- I'm a fanatic, but not crazy enough to
do that again).

As for the tasting at the conference, I think it went very well.  You'd be
hard pressed (I was) to assemble that many lambics/flanders browns outside
of Belguim.  The final lineup was Liefman's Goudenband, Timmerman's
Kriek & Framboise, St. Louis Gueuze, Mort Subite Kriek, Alexander Rodenbach
(the 150 aniversary beer, not the gran cru), Lindeman's Framboise,
homemade gueuze from Mike Matucheski, homebrew kriek-substance from
Charlie Papazian, assorted trappists from Darryl Richman (I think),
and probably a few others I'm forgetting.  Both tastings lasted about
2 hours, proceded at a rather relaxed pace, and were very informal.
Pictures of Cantillon (thanks to Martin) were passed about.  The list of
reservations reads like a HBD,CI$,AHA whos-who.  I think we need to do
this again next year...  (it was interesting to see how many of the
'good people' I pulled away from the openning ceremonies)

Current cultures for making lambics: (I'm keeping them)
	Pediococcus cerevisiae
	Brettanomyces bruxellensis & lambicus
	Saccaromyces globosus
I have two others, but they're not going anywhere until I figure out if
they're `safe'.

I'll be experementing with a line of 'Belgian kits' sometime soon.
A supplier at the conference told me about them & will hopefully be
shipping me a few for testing.  I'm particularly interested in if (& how)
they have the same lactic acid character, or if they result in just a
standard fruit ale.  Stay tuned for more info.

Finally, every month or so I create a 'best of' collection of lambic
notes that appeared on my mailing list.  For those of you who want to
keep up w/o the daily junk-mail this might be a viable route.  Note
that I have two such 'best of's at the moment (a third is due) and
each is about 800 lines.

- --Mike Sharp  (lambic fanatic, and lambic mailing list `founder')
msharp at cs.ulowell.edu          -- for personal mail
lambic at cs.ulowell.edu          -- for the lambic mailing list
lambic-request@ cs.ulowell.edu  -- for add/remove/administrata

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Date: Mon, 1 Jul 91 08:23 EST
From: STROUD%GAIA at sdi.polaroid.com
Subject: HBD

Please add me to the mailing list for Homebrew Digest.  Thanks.

Steve Stroud

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Date: Mon, 1 Jul 91 11:24:11 CDT
From: bradley at dehn.math.nwu.edu (R. Bradley)
Subject: US/Canadian beers, good wishes for the summer.

Happy Canada Day, fellow homebrewers!

I'm about to sign off the list for the summer: vacation, conferences, moving.
I'll be sure to get back on after Labour Day.  The first 14 months has been
great; I look forward to many, many more.

On the subject of US beers in Canada and vice versa:

Canadian main-line beers are almost comically consistent: 5% alcohol by 
volume and a FG of 1010, no matter who makes 'em and what they're called.
This means that they start at 1048 or so and we may ball-park the *real*
residual extract at 40%.  Needless to say, you need a *few* hops to balance
that much sugar.  Even a beer like Blue - a sop to the contemporary
palate, being about 1/3 adjunct (legend puts it as high as 4/9!) and
relatively sweet - has been hopped to an extent you wouldn't find in Miller
or Bud.  Therefore, Canadian Miller and Bud, which are brewed under licence,
are very little like the original, as they match typical Canadian specs.

Did I hear some innocent soul ask why they would bother to brew beer named
Miller or Bud that's nothing like the original number?  Simple: for a
modest licence fee, the Canadian breweries cash in on decades of American
beer commercials which we Canucks have watched on cable. 

Canadian beers in the US, on the other hand, are imports.  I won't promise
that the Blue and Golden we get down here is exactly the same as the stuff
in Canada, but Moosehead is typically Canadian - 5%, 1010 and a fair hop
bite.  (Caveat: beers brewed by the big Canadian brewers are often 
sufficiently bitter, but virtually never have decent flavour/aroma
characteristics.)

Moosehead segues nicely into the province-to-province trade issue.  I
grew up in Quebec and lived for 8 years in Ontario.  I never tasted
Moosehead until I moved to Chicago.  9 Canadian provinces (tiny Prince
Edward Island is the exception) have a simple law - brew your beer here
or it will be treated like Becks and Newkie Brown: an import, available
only in provincial liquor stores.  This is just one example of the sort
of inefficiency built into the Canadian economy by decades of pork-barrel
politics aimed at keeping as many workers in the "regions" of Canada as
possible, instead of flooding to the big urban centers.  The result is
that even a beer like Blue, which is available everywhere, is brewed in
different provinces with different water, different brewing kettles,
different size batches, and so on.  Moosehead, BTW, is brewed in Nova
Scotia and New Brunswick and apparently sells better in the US than in
Canada.

A closing note for residents of/visitors to Ontario.  According to the
brewmaster at Molson's Toronto brewery in '88 (maybe '87), Molson's
was the only brewer selling 100% malt beers at regular prices.  They
make 4 all-malt brews: Lowenbrau (under licence) and Porter (decent
sweet stout) are premium-priced, but Molson Stock Ale and Export Light
are regular priced.  Export Light is a misnomer - it should be called
Stock Light, as it's the dilute formulation of Molson Stock Ale.  At
4%/vol and 1010 with a good hop bite, it's a reasonable alternative to
the usual mind-numbing 5% stuff we Canadians grew up swilling. Molson
Stock Ale - 5% and 1012 with real bitterness - is just about the last
example of a Canadian traditional ale, the sort of thing 'real'
Canadians drank until the 1960s.  Even IPA has now been yuppied up.

The foregoing is not meant to imply that the big breweries are the whole
story.  Ontario has provided fertile ground for micros and brewpubs,
ranging from the excellent to the atrocious, over the past few years.
I'll drink a few pints of Wellington County (they make real ale a la
CAMRA, available in pubs only) and sup some Brick and Upper Canada
while I'm home, but the case of beer in my trunk when I cross the
border will be Molson Stock Ale.

Have a great summer,

Rob

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Date:    Mon, 1 Jul 91 13:49 EDT
From: WJW2 at PSUVM.PSU.EDU
Subject: hop flavor

regarding tom's (nolan at lheavx.dnet.nasa.gov) request for info on tastes.
I feel its important when considering beer taste, but not often said out
loud to beginners, to understand the difference between 'bitterness' and
hop flavor.  hops, depending on how you use them, can add either.  beers
can be very bitter but not taste like hops (but the bitterness is from the
hops).  taste any english bitter for a bitter taste.  for hop flavor- try
spaten!

     H.d. at penn state.

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Date: Mon, 1 Jul 91 11:34:49 PDT
From: polstra!jdp at uunet.UU.NET (John Polstra)
Subject: Water Treatment for Lagers

In HBD #670, baughmankr at conrad.appstate.edu (Kinney Baughman) had plenty
of interesting stuff to say (I loved the technique for emptying a
carboy), but I am responding here to his comments about water treatment:

> Adjust your water according to beer you're trying to make.  In general,
> soft water for lagers.  Hard water for English type ales.

This is the common wisdom and it's what I used to do, too.  But further
study has convinced me that "soft water for lagers" is bad advice.
(Actually, what is usually advised is "soft water for *pale* lagers,"
and I'll assume that's what Kinney really meant.)

Where does this idea come from?  It seems to stem from the following
line of reasoning:

    1. The greatest pale lagers in the world come from Pilsen.
    2. The water in Pilsen is extremely soft.
    3. Therefore, soft water should be used for pale lagers.

Makes sense, eh, so what's wrong here?  What is wrong is that this line
of reasoning does not take into account the brewing *process* that is
used in Pilsen.  It turns out that the brewers of Pilsen were not able
to brew good pale lagers until 1842, when they first began using an
acid rest during the mash to compensate for their soft water. [1]

The acid rest is a rest at around 95 degrees F which is done before the
protein rest.  As its name implies, the acid rest has the effect of
lowering the pH of the mash.  It is necessary in Pilsen only because the
water is so soft there.  If the water had the proper level of calcium
ions in it (and not too much carbonate) then the pH would settle out at
a good value on its own.

You're not going to get the best results in making a pale lager with
soft water unless you either add an acid rest to your mash schedule or
treat the water appropriately to bring the calcium level up.  In my
opinion, treating the water is a whole lot easier and more reliable.

The key to treating soft water is getting the calcium level up to 50-100
parts per million.  This will (again, assuming you don't have a lot of
carbonate ions in your water) cause the mash pH to be correct and will
make an astounding difference in the amount of extract you get from a
given amount of grain.  It will also shorten the starch conversion time
by an amazing amount.  Consider the following table from [2], which
describes five mashes with identical ingredients except for the water
treatment:

            CaSO4  CaCO3    pH   Conversion Time
               0      0    5.95         45
               0     50    6.15         60
             125      0    5.65         15
             250      0    5.35         10
             125     50    5.75         30

Here, concentrations of CaSO4 (gypsum) and CaCO3 (calcium carbonate) are
given in parts per million, and conversion times are given in minutes.
The article goes on to state:

    These examples show how strongly the composition of the brewing
    water affects the mash.  Similar results have been reported for
    commercial brews, however, the conversion times tend to be lower
    than those reported in Table 1 ... Conversion times of 20 minutes
    are considered bad in commercial brewing since they can yield
    unpredictable carbohydrate profiles.

Those who are used to doing 2-hour mashes, take note!

By the way, 125 ppm of CaSO4 adds 29 ppm of calcium to the water,
while 250 ppm of CaSO4 adds 58 ppm of calcium.

I started systematically treating my brewing water about nine months
ago, and I have noticed a real improvement in extract efficiency.
Brews that used to take 10 lbs. of grain now need only a little over 8
lbs.  Mash conversion times have dropped noticeably, as well.

I generally use a mix of gypsum and calcium chloride to treat my
ultra-soft Seattle water.  When I want to accentuate the hops, I use
more gypsum and less calcium chloride; when I want a softer or sweeter
flavor, I shift the balance in the other direction.  In any case, I make
sure that the total calcium ends up in the 50-100 ppm range.

Enough of my rambling.  Here are the references:

[1] Dave Miller, "The Complete Handbook of Home Brewing," p. 114.
[2] George Fix, "Quality Control in Small-Scale Brewing," in "Beer and
    Brewing," volume 6, Brewers Publications, Boulder, page 138.

   John Polstra               polstra!jdp at uunet.uu.net
   Polstra & Co., Inc.           ...!uunet!polstra!jdp
   Seattle, Washington USA              (206) 932-6482
   "Self-knowledge is always bad news."  -- John Barth

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Date: Sun, 30 Jun 91 10:54:12 PDT
From: polstra!norm at uunet.UU.NET (Norm Hardy)
Subject: Aphids aphids everywhere and not a hop to drink

Here in the summer(?) of wet Seattle, my hops are slowly growing.  But,
the aphids grow even faster.

Here is what I have tried, but I would like to hear how others' are dealing
with pests:

Although I have used Diazinon to kill the suckers (and lady bugs too), I
prefer softer methods.  Lately I have been setting the garden hose on 
stun (spray) and manually knocking the aphids (and spider mites) off the
leaves.  Not only is it a wet process, but lengthy as the foliage on the
Herzbruchers is extensive (some leaves are 12 inches across the longest
span).  But it works, on the short term as I have to do it again two days
later.  Most of the problem is located on the back side of the leaves.

My botanical neighbor purchased a bag of 1500 lady bugs for her garden, and
some naturally came over to check out the hops.  But they appear to have
flown away home. 

Lace flies are also trying to eat the aphids but they don't appear to put a
dent in the supply.  They merely tell me where the concentrations are.

Any other HBD hop growers out there want to share?

Norm Hardy

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Date: Mon, 01 Jul 91 14:26:53 EDT
From: hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Zymurgy  at  3AM, Harvesting Hops



Now Kinney, if you ask Darryl he'll tell you that I absorbed quite a lot of his
article, considering I read it mostly with my eyes 1/2 closed.
BTW If you and Gerg Noonan hadn't have shown up I'd have been asleep then
instead :-) !!

Hey folks, I just moved into Steve Stroud's former residence and inherited his
hop plants. They have flowers on them, some quite sizeable, and I'm wondering
about harvesting them.
What should I look for to know when to harvest them?? Any special technique, or
is just pulling them off OK?? Will the vines continue to flower throughout the
season or do they flower just once??

Any tips/advice here is much appreciated.

 - JaH


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Date: Mon, 01 Jul 91 15:39:22 EDT
From: hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Zymurgy  at  3AM, Harvesting Hops




Now Kinney, if you ask Darryl he'll tell you that I absorbed quite a lot of his
article, considering I read it mostly with my eyes 1/2 closed.
BTW If you and Gerg Noonan hadn't have shown up I'd have been asleep then
instead :-) !!

Hey folks, I just moved into Steve Stroud's former residence and inherited his
hop plants. They have flowers on them, some quite sizeable, and I'm wondering
about harvesting them.
What should I look for to know when to harvest them?? Any special technique, or
is just pulling them off OK?? Will the vines continue to flower throughout the
season or do they flower just once??

Any tips/advice here is much appreciated.

 - JaH


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
assume that you are moderate in everything.
you now have an excess of moderation, a contradiction.

excessiveness is clearly the way to go...


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Date: Mon, 1 Jul 91 11:39:56 PDT
From: aimla!ruby!ken at uunet.UU.NET (Ken Ellinwood)
Subject: Hops for Sierra Nevada PA

Does anyone know what varieties and proportions of hops are used
to brew Sierra Nevada Pale Ale?  A friend and I are interested in 
brewing a copy-cat version.  Thanks in advance,

Ken Ellinwood
ken at aimla.com



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Date: Mon, 1 Jul 91 16:32:39 mdt
From: hplabs!hp-lsd.cos.hp.com!ihlpl!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Re: Beer Tastes


Tom writes:
>Paul Schmidt asks about examples of commercial
>beers with specific tastes; he mentions "hoppy", "sweet", "estery". Here's
>a couple of suggestions:
>
>hoppy - Samuel Adams Lager is amazing. It's like sticking your head
>        in a hops basket. Try drinking it straight from the bottle.
>        I don't know, it must shoot the hops right up your nose.

I agree, but would be more specific and say Sam Adams Lager has a *lot*
of hop *bouquet* AND quite a bit of hop flavor.  Sierra Nevada Pale Ale
also has quite a big hop nose and taste.  Anchor Liberty Ale has quite
a bit of hop flavor/bitterness but a little less hop nose (if I remember
correctly).  I'd also like to add that, in my opinion, the 1990 Sam Adams
Christmas beer (I forget the actual name) was just as hoppy in nose and
palate but had a bit more maltiness -- a more well balanced beer than
the Boston Lager.  I wish it would be available year-round.

>sweet - Any of the scotch ales, like McEwans. They're apparently brewed
>        with crippled yeast to produce sweet diacetyl flavors. The
>        only trouble is finding a fresh bottle. McEwans in particular
>        is in clear glass and tends to go off.

If I recall correctly, I get my McEwans (Scotch Ale and Export) in brown
bottles (Chicago Metro Area).  I would add Sheaf Stout (by Tooth's)
to sweet beers and Mackeson's XXX Stout is also pretty sweet.  Compare
to Guiness Extra Stout which is a dry stout (especially in the bottle --
note that Guiness on Draft is a very different beer than in the bottle).

I would recommend Samuel Smith's Pale Ale for diacetyl flavor, but it's
not as sweet as the beers mentioned above.

>estery - Anchor Liberty Ale is very fruity for a commercial
>        beer. This is typical for an "ale" style but still strange to
>        the American palate, if there is such a thing.

The fruitiest beer I've ever tasted is Orval Trappiste Ale.  A cross
between banana and (forgive me) bubble gum.  I've heard that, on one
occasion, a person got a hold of a very bad bottle of Orval.  If it
tastes awful, you got one too.

Finally, I would like to dispute Paul's contention that Molson Golden
is a hoppy beer.  Paul-- once you try Sam Adams, Liberty Ale, and SNPA,
you may feel compelled to write a retraction ;^), but you don't have to.

Here's to beer with flavor!  (I'll drink to that!)
Al.


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Date:         Mon, 01 Jul 91 20:49:29 EDT
From: Tom Dimock <RGG at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:      Cornell Homebrewers

In HBD #670 Kinney Baughman remarks "The Cornell site must have more
homebrewers per site than any other node on the net."   Probably true,
and I just wanted to give a little credit to those responsible.  Steve
Russell ("primary fermenter"), Dwight Beebe ("chief brewing fool"), and
the rest of the membership of the IBU make it hard to NOT be a homebrewer.

You walk into the Chapter House on IBU meeting night (either on purpose or
by accident) and here are 30 or so loud and lively people who have brought
their own beers to a bar with some of the best brews available!  Not only
that, but the owners are enthusiastically participating, rather than chasing
them out or calling the police.  Showing the slightest bit of interest gets
you a fast intro to the art of homebrewing (complete with samples), a trial
subscription to their excellent newsletter, and an offer of an experienced
brewer to help you through your first batch! It also didn't hurt that at my
first meeting the guest of honor was no less than Michael Jackson!

Well, you might be able to walk away at that point, but then you start
getting E-mail from Steve about everything from upcoming IBU events to
blowing up dead whales with half a ton of dynamite.  And every time you
go into the Chapter House James or Laurie Clement or someone from the club
wants to know how you're doing....  Next thing you know, there's five gallons
of brew bubbling away in the kitchen, and the HBD has become the high point
of your working day.

So thanks, IBU, for getting me into this; I'm looking forward to sharing my
attempts and helping get someone else into this silly sport!

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #671, 07/02/91
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