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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re: SA Double Bock (gateh)
  re: Du kanst kaufe keine Hefe von MeV (Darryl Richman)
  Re: Aphids & Hearbs (larryba)
  MeV Liquid Yeast supplier (Stephen Russell)
  Re: strange fruit (Chris Shenton)
  American Brewmaster Digital Thermometers (John Polstra)
  Re: dry brewing (Charles Anderson)
  RE: Homebrew Digest #675 (July 09, 1991)  (Death is the only Solution)
  What Miller's up to (Andy Leith)
  Beer in Boulder (ingr!b11!mspe5!guy)
  Dextrins & Body (C.R. Saikley)
  Blind beer tasting results (Nick Thomas)
  Impressed by Anchor Steam Beer (David Taylor)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmi at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmi at hplabs.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


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Date: Thu, 11 Jul 91 09:30:31 EDT
From: gateh%CONNCOLL.BITNET at YALEVM.YCC.Yale.Edu
Subject: Re: SA Double Bock

> Bob> ... Sam Adams Double Bock beer [had] a nice malt flavor with
> Bob> plenty of hops aroma and taste. However I found it to be very sweet
> Bob> tasting.  Is double bock supposed to be a sweet tasting beer ...
>
> I enjoy bockbier *very* much, but I found SADB annoyingly sweet and
> unbalanced; I won't drink it again -- too cloying.

I too found this year's batch to be unacceptably sweet, however I
wouldn't write SADB off entirely - last year's batch was very good,
with a wonderful roasted flavor and just the right level of
sweetness (that was on tap).  I have very fond memories of a number
of pints of SADB, the UCONN Huskies, and less than a second on the
game clock...  at any rate, I'd give it a shot again next year,
maybe it'll be another good batch.

Cheers!  - Gregg

Gregg TeHennepe       | SysAdm, Academic Computing          | Yes, but this
gateh at conncoll.bitnet | Connecticut College, New London, CT | one goes to 11...

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Date: Thu, 11 Jul 91 06:09:18 -0700
From: darryl at ism.isc.com (Darryl Richman)
Subject: re: Du kanst kaufe keine Hefe von MeV

There are persistent rumors circulating on CompuServe that MeV has gone
under.  Apparently they had a bad batch of cultures that went out a few
months ago, and the repercussions have finished them.  So says CI$.

		--Darryl Richman


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Date: Thu Jul 11 08:01:53 1991
From: larryba at microsoft.com
Subject: Re: Aphids & Hearbs

In HBD #677, Peter Karp writes:

|"Most aromatic herbs, including catnip, chives, corieander, eucalyptus,
|fennel, garlic, larkspur, marigold, mustard, nasturtium, peppermint and

Well, I have an extensive garden with some fennel and nasturtium growing in
it.  Both have been *covered* aphids.  Early attack with Diazinon seems
most effective.  Blasting the critters off with water also works pretty well.
I bought one of those pump squirt guns at Toys-r-us, the water hose is too
rough.

Now that we are in the heat of summer (as much as that is in Seattle) the
aphids seem to have mostly dissapeared.  I think early spot nuking (April, in
Seattle) with chemicals keeps the total population down.  You don't want to
continue nuking for two reasons: diazinon is not an approved beer additive
and b: other bugs (ladybugs, etc) come in later and start cleaning up.  Spot
nuking of big colonies is still in my program.  If it is small enough I
simply grind the suckers under my thumb.  Hmm, hmm tasty!

The Seattle area was a big hops growing region around the turn of the century.
Aphid infestation decimated the industry around 1919 - it might be a loosing
battle if you are interested in organic/pesticide free hops.


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Date: Thu, 11 Jul 91 11:35:51 EDT
From: imagesys!shannon at uu.psi.com (Shannon Posniewski)

A friend of mine to whom I forward HBD's asked me to submit the following:

I recently sampled a bottle of a ginger/lemongrass mead that a friend and I 
brewed last December.  The results were so impressive that I'm quite anxious to
brew another mead.  A couple of weeks ago, while hiking, I noticed blackberry 
plants that had immature berries on them.  So now I have the idea of blackberry
mead stuck in my head.

I would like to hear from people who've had experience using blackberries, 
either to flavor beer or mead.  Here is a virtual plethora of questions:

Do blackberries have a strong flavor? 
How much would you use in a 5 gallon batch?  
Do blackberries have a lot of pectin?
Should I boil them or add them to the cooled brew?

An aside:  I enjoy highly spiced and strongly flavored foods and was slightly
disapointed that the ginger/lemongrass flavors were not stronger in our mead,
we used about 8oz of each.  

Dan (c/o Shannon)

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Date: Thu, 11 Jul 91 12:09:22 EDT
From: srussell at snoopy.msc.cornell.edu (Stephen Russell)
Subject: MeV Liquid Yeast supplier

Ok, Chris Shenton, you asked for it.....

The U.S. distributor of MeV Liquid Yeast is Mayer's Cider Mill 
of Webster, New York, just outside of Rochester.  Evidently, they
sell wholesale at $2/pack, and it retails typically at $3.50-3.95.
Call them up to find out the nearest retailer near you that carries
the stuff.

Mayer's Cider Mill   800-543-0043, 716-671-1955
MeV Research         519-579-0628  (Waterloo, Ontario)

Caveat:  the woman on the phone said that they don't sell it in summer.

I recommend the High Temperature Lager yeast highly....makes great 
steam beer.  If there is interest, I could try to get a list of their
products out on an upcoming digest.


Ooogy wawa, and happy hunting,

STEVE

Disclaimer:  I have *no* connection whatsover with any of the above
listed companies (I don't need no stinkin' connection).

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Date: Thu, 11 Jul 91 11:38:52 EDT
From: Chris Shenton <chris at endgame.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: strange fruit

On Wed, 10 Jul 91 17:32:59 PDT, lg562 at koshland.pnl.gov said:

Michael> I have an apricot tree and was wondering if anyone had any
Michael> experience with apricot beer.

No, sorry, but I imagine it would make a wonderful mead. Or a great
addition to a pale ale. Ummm, yum!

Or better [hi Mike!] a really fine lambic!

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Date: Thu, 11 Jul 91 10:24:18 PDT
From: polstra!jdp at uunet.UU.NET (John Polstra)
Subject: American Brewmaster Digital Thermometers

In HBD #677, "N. Zentena" <zen at utcs.utoronto.ca> asks:
> ... there is a company called American Brewmaster that advertises in
> Zymurgy which sells digital thermometers and ph meters has anybody
> dealt with them? If so what do you think? Is it a good deal?

I just recently bought one of the digital thermometers from American
Brewmaster.  The person who took my phone order was friendly,
courteous, and efficient.  The thermometer arrived promptly (it was
shipped the same day I ordered it), and was everything the advertisement
had claimed it was.  The packing list contained a hand-written note from
the owner thanking me for my order.  So here's one vote of confidence in
American Brewmaster.  I'd certainly do business with them again.

I haven't actually brewed yet with the thermometer, but it looks like it
will be OK.  It's about the size of a ball-point pen, and in fact it
comes with a little pen-body holder that you can use to keep the thing
in your pocket.  The probe is made out of stainless steel and is
about 4-5" long.  A 1" diameter body at the top of the probe contains
the digital readout, the electronics, and a 1.5-volt silver oxide
battery.  (A battery comes with the unit).  The readout is in degrees F
and includes one digit after the decimal point, although I believe the
accuracy is only specified as +/- 2 degrees F.  (BTW, I have worked with
a manufacturer of electronic thermometers on a consulting job, and +/- 2
degrees F [or +/- 1 degree C] is about good as you can get for under a
few hundred dollars.)

Normally, the reading is updated about every 15 seconds to preserve the
battery (there is no on/off switch).  There's a tiny button you can
press to bump up the reading rate to once per second.

So far, there are really only two things I don't like about the
thermometer.  First, it's so small that it would be easy to drop it into
the mash.  It would probably sink and get ruined.  I'll probably stick
mine through a chunk of styrofoam so that I can float it on the surface
of the mash.  Second, the button to increase the reading rate is so
small that it's hard for me to make it work all the time.

Larry Barello <larryba at microsoft>, another HBD reader, recently told me
that he'd found a similar thermometer with an 8" stem in a local
restaurant supply store for around $23.  The longer stem sounds better
to me, and that's a good price.  So you might want to check
restaurant supply stores in your area for something similar.

   John Polstra               polstra!jdp at uunet.uu.net
   Polstra & Co., Inc.           ...!uunet!polstra!jdp
   Seattle, Washington USA              (206) 932-6482
   "Self-knowledge is always bad news."  -- John Barth

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Date: 	Thu, 11 Jul 1991 10:04:43 -0500
From: caa at com2serv.c2s.mn.org (Charles Anderson)
Subject: Re: dry brewing

> From: Dave Barrett <DAVE.BARRETT at OFFICE.WANG.COM>
> 
> Recently there has been a fair amount of Miller (the so called beer) bashing,
> mostly about their treatment of hops oils and 'cold filtering'.  This
> caused me to pay a bit more attention to the beer commericals I see on the
> tube.  Last night I saw an ad for Bud Dry in which AB claimed that it is the
> only 'cold filtered and dry brewed' beer available.
> 
> Does anybody know what the % at ?$?^$*??!! 'dry brewing' is? Its bad enough that
> they seem to be reluctant to get anywhere near hops, but are they now trying
> to tell us that they don't use water when they brew?

Dry brewing was originated in Japan by the Kirin brewing co (I think it was
Kirin, either them or Asahi) it involves fermenting past the point when
most yeasts stop working.  According to Eckhardts' book they engineered
some new yeast strains to get the job done.  Fred also says that some
brewers add some chemical additives to keep the yeast going...what this
is supposed to produce is a drier beer (think in terms of dry wine).

P.S.  I had a posting a while ago that talked about prices for grain mills,
I picked up a corona at a local mexican market for $29.99...it's your
standard corona, the only difference is that the instructions are in
spanish.

- -- 
/-Charles-Anderson-\   |       caa at c2s.mn.org || caa at midgard.mn.org 
\------------------/   | Com Squared Systems,          voice (612) 452-9522
The rose goes in front | 1285 Corporate Center Drive    fax  (612) 452-3607
big guy -Crash Davis   | Suite 170 | Eagan,  MN 55121  (I speak for myself)

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Date: Thu, 11 Jul 91 11:18:05 PDT
From: Death is the only Solution <"b_turnbaugh" at csc32.enet.dec.com>
Subject: RE: Homebrew Digest #675 (July 09, 1991) 

JaH,  hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu,   would you please send me info on making
hard cider??  I tried mailing you direct but it won't work!!!  Thanks: bob t.

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Date: Thu, 11 Jul 91 13:42:44 CDT
From: andy at wups.wustl.edu (Andy Leith)
Subject: What Miller's up to

Steve Russell asks what has happened to Dave Miller

He couldn't make the conference as he has been too busy trying to
get his brewpub underway. He has found a sponsor, and they are at
present trying to finalise details on the location. He is involved
with Dan Kopman (I think that's the spelling) who used to work with Young's
in London.  They hope to be in business by year end. It took him two years
of hard work to get brewpubs legalised in Missouri. He is hoping to have
an even more complete handbook out next year which will also cover all extract
recipes, kegging, counter pressure fillers and the like.

Andy

andy at wups.wustl.edu

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Date: Thu, 11 Jul 91 15:27:56 CDT
From: ingr!ingr!b11!mspe5!guy at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Beer in Boulder

    I will be in Boulder Sunday evening through Thursday evening of next week
and I would like to solicit your recommendations of stores with good beer
selection.  Also, I intend to visit Old Chicago and The Walnut Street Brewery
there.  Any other watering holes worthy of note?  Places to avoid?  Denver is 
not out of the question since I'll be flying in and out of Stapleton airport.
I seem to recall an excellent report someone did a while back about a beer run
they made from Texas to Colorado.  I though I had saved it but, alas, I cannot
find it.  Feel free to e-mail your suggestions if you prefer not to post to
the digest.  I would like to pick up a few samples of good beer since Alabama's
selection is very limited.  Hopefully, it will tide me over until my Belgian
brews arrive in mid September.  Thanks very much!

- -- 
==============================================================================
 Guy D. McConnell                   |            |"All that is gold does not
 Intergraph Corp. Huntsville, AL.   |   These    | glitter, not all those who
 Mass Storage Peripheral Evaluation |  opinions  | wander are lost, the old
 Tape Products                      |  are mine  | that is strong does not
 Mail Stop CR1105                   |  and mine  | wither, and deep roots are
 uunet!ingr.com!b11!mspe5!guy       |   alone.   | not touched by the frost."
 (205)730-6289   FAX (205)730-6011  |            |                   J.R.R.T.
==============================================================================


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Date: Thu, 11 Jul 91 14:00:43 PDT
From: grumpy!cr at uunet.UU.NET (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: Dextrins & Body


From: srussell at snoopy.msc.cornell.edu (Stephen Russell)

DEXTRINS REVISITED.....

>You know, I just realized that the debate on dextrins 'n body was somewhat
>abbreviated (for this digest, that is).  I keep seeing contradictory infor-
>mation in different sources...TCHoHB says "it's been proven that dextrins don't
>add body to beer", other sources imply the opposite, such as Jackson's and
>Eckhardt's books.  What do YOU think?  DO DEXTRINS ADD BODY TO BEER? 

This topic is the subject of considerable debate. There seems to be no simple
answer. The "traditional" wisdom seems to be that dextrins *do* add body to
beer. The theory being that high mash temperatures favor alpha amylase over
beta and that alpha tends to produce more dextrins whereas beta produces
fermentable maltose. Beers mashed at higher temperatures generally have more
body than those mashed at lower temps. Therefore..............

(Hmmmmm, people who carry matches in their pocket tend to have a higher
incidence of lung cancer than those who don't. Therefore........)

I believe that Miller is referring to the work of Jean DeClerk (sp?) when he
says "it's been proven etc.". DeClerk's text is long out of print and I have
been unable to get my hands on a copy. If anyone out there has access to a
copy, it would be interesting to know what DeClerk did to prove this.

Dr.Lewis at UCDavis.fermentation.edu describes an experiment he was involved in
that was directed at proving or disproving this. They began with some
nondescript industrial beer (maybe Coors Light). They added dextrins to the
finished product (there's that word again) in controlled amounts. They then
did blind tastings with a panel of professional tasters. The panel was unable
to detect any differences until the dextrin levels got ridiculously high -
much higher than you could ever get using any "standard" mashing technique.
Their conclusion was that dextrins *alone* do add body to beer.

I don't believe that anyone is doubting that high temperature mashes produce
beers of greater body that low temp mashes, but the alpha amylase/dextrin
theory doesn't accurately describe the process. I've seen in my own brews
that higher mash temps yield fuller bodied beers. I brewed two "identical"
batches, the only difference being that one had a strike temp of 158F and the
other 155F. The difference between the two beers was much greater than I 
expected.

Dr. Lewis believes that protein fractions (peptides, polypeptides etc.)
are involved in the perception of body. He hinted that there may be some
complex interaction between dextrins, protein fractions and our sensory
perception. However, he admitted that he just didn't really know what was
going on.

For now I've decided to not worry about exactly what is responsible for the
sensation of body. The guys with PhD's in brewing science will figure it out
someday, and then we'll know. From a practical standpoint, I know I can vary
the body in my brews by adjusting the mash temp, and that works well.

Cheers,
CR

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Date: Thu Jul 11 09:51:26 EDT 1991
From: cbnewsm!terryp at attbl.attmail.com

A few issues ago Randy Tidd asked about a tapper system for AB 
"Golden Gate Kegs".  He also wanted information on "a place in
Kansas called Foxx".

They are at:

	Foxx Equipment Company
    421 Southwest Blvd
    Kansas City, MO  64083  (that's MO, as in Missouri, NOT Kansas)
    816-421-3600


A quick phone call to them this morning revealed:

    - they are still in business
    - they have a mail order catalog
    - they stock a product called "Golden Gate Tapper"
    - among the  items included in the above are:
         (sorry, I couldn't take notes)
         a couple of devices with "air vent" in their names &
         a spigot
    - they can probably order want you need if they don't stock it.


Terry Phillips     AT&T                          Kansas City, MO
IM Member          Network Services Division     816-995-4567

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Date: Thu, 11 Jul 91 17:27:34 PDT
From: Nick.Thomas at Eng.Sun.COM (Nick Thomas)
Subject: Blind beer tasting results



	A friend of mine organized a blind beer tasting of
10 commercial beers and one homebrew.  The results are kind of
interesting, and I thought the brewers on this alias might
enjoy reading them.  The judges ranged from "very frequent"
to "extremely infrequent" beer drinkers.  The judge's comments 
aren't quite what
you would find at a competition.  They are more, ah...
"informal."  In fact, if mild obscenity offends you, don't read further.

 -nick


	By the way the "clarity test" refers to 
the fact that one judge won't drink any beer she can't see through.



1.  Holstein		(Tied for Worst of Show by one Judge)

	Tastes like beer
	Thin.  Guessed it was Rolling Rock.  Thought Richard Gere
		might enjoy it.
	Weak, gross, watery
	Not Very Good
	Like Budweiser - plywood aged
	Gnarly
	(Did not pass clarity test for one Judge)
	

2. Franz(something) Weisbier (Wheatbeer)  (Tied worst of show for 1 judge)

	Injured Leather
	Bleh
	Yuck
	Worse that #1, but not gross
	Fascist Beer From Hell
	High School memories
	(did not pass clarity test again)


3. Rolling Rock

	Clear, Sweet, Cool - just take the dead mouse out
	Light, fruity, rotten.  Much like embalming fluid
	Cheap, like bud, tinny.
	Worse than #1
	Pabst Blue Ribbon
	got a kick like 2. but it has bite
	Tastes good with 11.

4. Due to a serious budget crunch in Winsconson, they've
had to cut some necessary programs in the school system.  One of
those programs was everything related to the number 4.  The host,
being born in Wisconson, was one victim.  Consequently,
there was no Number 4 at the tasting.

5.  St. Pauli Girl

	Not bad - what's wrong with me?
	A spaten? malty, I like it
	Yuck!
	Better
	Like making love in a canoe - Fucking close to water
	(we begin to lose some judges at this point)

6.  Dead Cat Lager  (Worst of Show for 5 Judges)

	Lemonade - but spoiled
	Sweet & bitter & rancid
	What Kennan Said
	Piss Pour
	Lemonade and Chablis in equal parts (Kennan)
	Wow
	(Did not pass clarity test)

7.  Boont Amber

	Fuck you Asshole
	Sweet Spaten?  Pretty good
	OK
	Pretty Good
	Good shit, but doesn't wear well

8.  Corona	(Worst of Show for one Judge)

	Where was I?
	Light style American
	Yuck
	Marginaly Good
	Steinlager or something like that
	Olympia's Little sister
	Tastes Like plastic


9.  Samual Smiths Old Pale Ale

	Goodwith popcorn
	Malty, not bad
	OK.  Foamy
	Good
	Sweet stuff dude. Might be Spaten

10.  Red Tail Ale	(Best of Show for 2 judges;
		         tied best of show for 3 judges)

	Makes me regret the throatectomy
	Pretty Dam Good
	Foamy, lighter, good.
	The best
	This could be Spaten too
	very, very, very good
	Smells good; can't see through it

11.  Homebrew Barleywine	(Best of Show for 2 judges;
				Tied for Best of Show for 2 judges)

	Nick - Marry me and have my baby
	Really Nice
	Mold, sweet, better than good
	Very sweet
	Havenabamcnabledehaneha
	What a Kick!
	Sweet (Brandy)

12.  Miller

	I'm halucenating that I know what I'm doing
	Light, almost nonexistent
	Really Foamy, not much smell, weak taste, pale.  Nope.
	Mostly water
	Making Love in Canoe II
	Bud's little brother
	Tastes like preservatives




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Date: Fri, 12 Jul 91 13:56 EST
From: David Taylor <DAVID at phillip.edu.au>
Subject: Impressed by Anchor Steam Beer

Gooday,

Our Special Broadcasting Service has been showing Michael Jackson's
'Beerhunter' series, the most recent was the episode on the Anchor Steam
Brewery at San Francisco. Wonderful stuff. I liked Fritz Maytag's
philosophical approach to his chosen business. In particular his idea that
people like to buy beer that has come from a good place, ie: a craft brewery
where the workers care for the product they produce. He swaps a days
production for a trip to the country to select a field of barley to make the
Christmas Ale. Compare that to the union regimented workforce at the large
mass market breweries, with bean counters ordering the quantity of malt in
each brew.

Fritz compared beer to water painting and wine to oil painting. Beer can show
style and sublety, is ready to drink fairly quickly and is not expensive.
Wine takes months to make, is expensive to buy, then you are expected to lay
it down for years before drinking it.

The copper vessels in the brewhouse are classically beautiful and are visible
from the offices so the admin. people don't lose touch with the product.

I've tried Anchor Steam Beer and liked it very much. I'm wondering if Fritz
is still in control of the Brewery and if conditions have changed since the
show was made (1990)?  Has Anchor Steam Beer altered over the years? Have the
bean counters moved in?  :-(

It all looked too good to last.    Cheers everyone...  David

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #678, 07/12/91
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