---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Boulder Brewery/Monrovia Club (TSAMSEL)
  Re: Controlling fermenter temperatures (Dean Cookson)
  Re: Malt Aromatics. (Dean Cookson)
  whatever ("Dr. John")
  More MG/L vs PPM ("JOHN A. SAMPSON")
  Hops, bags, yeast, & malt.... (Ralph L McCallister)
  Re: Controlling fermenter temperature (Dale Veeneman)
  ppm -> mg/l (Bill Dyer)
  Re: bush beer (Bill Dyer)
  Re:  Skimming the Wort (John DeCarlo)
  Re: Boulder "Stout" (Michael Zentner)
  Re: Too Much Yeast?? (John DeCarlo)
  Re:  More Yeast (John DeCarlo)
  boil (Jack Schmidling)
  Re: mg/L to ppm (zepf)
  Pumpkin Ale ("Russell D. Shilling")
  Re:  Biting yeast (Carl West)
  saving malt aromatics  (Carl West)
  saving yeast  (Carl West)
  yet another stuck (top) fermentation; also, Vermont beers (... the seasons change ... )
  Lager question (David J. Sylvester)
  Re: Stainless Steel ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  Ginseng Beer (Richard Stueven)
  Yeast Question (William R Tschantz)
  Hop teas vs dry hopping (C.R. Saikley)
  Biting Yeast (C.R. Saikley)
  Canadian Amateur Brewers Assoc. (DP Systems Assurance) <dp70 at watdcs.UWaterloo.ca>
  Missing Fermentation? (RJS153)
  Lies, Damn Lies, and PPM (John Polstra)
  re: Controlling fermenter temperature (Tim Anderson)
  Surface Mail address for AHA (Robert L. Allen)
  Re: Dryhopping (korz)
  Re: wet-hopping (korz)
  Re:  Homebrew Digest #690 (July 30, 1991) (Douglas DeMers)
  Re: boil (korz)
  When beer goes bad (look out!) (Larry Gerstley)
  Correction (korz)
  re Yeast Bite Ointment (Chip Hitchcock)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmi at hplabs.hp.com
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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Jul 1991 7:09:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: TSAMSEL at ISDRES.ER.USGS.GOV
Subject: Boulder Brewery/Monrovia Club

Well, the Boulder Brewery products are being sold on the East Coast for very
LOW prices. ($3.99 a sixer) and the stout is not as good as I recall it
being. The Porter and the Pale Ale are better but still not as good as they
were ten or so years ago. These are being sold with Monrovia Club Beer. This
is from Liberia which has been in a state of civil war for over a year.
Hows old is this stuff? It tastes good (sort of like Singha) but gives one a
headache. Is this like the San Miguel and the BamityBam (33 beer from Nam)
that was doctored with formaldehyde?
  The Monrovia Club is also being sold for $3.99 and there is tons of it....
  Ted

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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 08:15:57 EDT
From: cookson at bccnxt.mitre.org (Dean Cookson)
Subject: Re: Controlling fermenter temperatures

Instead of using the waterbed heater, have you considered
using one of those outside the tank, fish tank heaters??
They stick to the glass, and do have a termostat...
Might be worth a try.

Dean


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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 08:18:33 EDT
From: cookson at bccnxt.mitre.org (Dean Cookson)
Subject: Re: Malt Aromatics.

I can't really see just a simple cover keeping in much in the
way of volitiles.  Now if you tried using a pressure cooker...
Anyone want to give it a go??

Dean


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Date:         Tue, 30 Jul 91 08:13:52 EDT
From: "Dr. John" <JELJ at CORNELLA.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:      whatever

In today's (7-30) HBD Russ Gelinas suggests "wet-hopping" in lieu of "dry
hopping.  I think, and this is really only an opinion unsupported by hard
scientific evidence, that any boiling of the hops will drive off some of the
volatiles.  And I think that the retention of these volatiles is a critical
factor in dry hopping.  However, Noonan, as I recall, does recommend using
some sort of hop tea to increase the hop nose in a lager at bottling time
(it's in his "Brewing Lager Beer" though I don't have the exact page
number).

Jack Schmidling quotes Leigh P. Beadle to the effect that extract-based beers
should never be boiled.  I'm not convinced.  How does Beadle propose that one
extract the alpha acids from hops used in conjunction with an unhopped extract.
It looks to me like Beadle is the one who should know better.

Boulder Stout (as I recall this is really a misnomer) is almost undrinkable
according to Anton E. Skaugset.  While I wouldn't go quite that far, I agree
that this isn't one of the finest examples of the style.  We (the infamaous
IBU) held a dark ale tasting back in February, and included in the tasting
were two of Boulder's products (there is that nasty term again, but in this
case it seems very appropirate).  Neither the Boulder Stout nor the Boulder
Porter were terrribly impressive, both seemed rather thin, and borderline
insipid; and neither was really very exemplary of the style one would expect
when reading the labels.  Perhaps they have changed the product specifications
since Jackson rated them.

Water, water, everywhere.  But the problem is what, or how much of it, is in
it.  I'm basking in the glow of this flame (too bad you can't can it or
somthing David, it would solve your cold weather ale fermentation problems).

Now, if Darryl is really Steve, my question is "why aren't we getting some
prize winning bock to drink at the IBU meetings?"  IB ergo U?

And, lastly, a question.  I've been wondering for a while, after reading it
in Noonan's book and more recently in "The Practical Brewer" about the formula
for calculating the pounds of extract in a barrel of wort of a particular
density.  The formulae, with minor transformations of the denominator, that
are given for this purpose in these two references add the degrees Balling
to the weight of a barrel of water, then multiply this result by the degrees
Balling.  After the appropriate division, either by 100 or 3100, the result is
presented as the pounds of extract, in either a barrel or a gallon.  So, what
gives here?  Why is the density measure added to the weight and then also used
to multiply the result?  If my muddled description is inadequate I apologize.
I'll consult the afforementioned references and give the full details of the
formulae tomorrow.

Ooogy Wawa,
Dr. John

"So much time, and so little to do"  -Willy Wonka

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Date: 30 Jul 91 13:53:00 WET
From: "JOHN A. SAMPSON" <jsampson at onreur-gw.navy.mil>
Subject: More MG/L vs PPM


The Chemical Rubber Company Handbook of Chemistry & Physics 57th Edition, page
F-320 says:

"To convert from    To                  Multiply by
  Parts/million*    Milligrams/liter        1

    * Based on density of 1 gram/ml for the solvent."

- -- John (If it's good for CRC...Then it's good enough for me!) Sampson


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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 08:06:34 -0500
From: ralph at ecn.purdue.edu (Ralph L McCallister)
Subject: Hops, bags, yeast, & malt....

Dry Hopping:

  There should not be any difference in the out come of your beer
using pellets, leaf, or plug hops.  I don't think that I would ever
use pellets, but to each their own.  I have always used plugs and 
just put them into the secondary and rack the beer right on top.
I feel that one advantage is that leaf/plug hops float thus adding
another barrier to infection.  I also feel that leaf/plug hops 
impart a much better aroma and bitterness than pellets.  Sure, it is
a little harder when you go to bottle and yes you do leave a little
more brew in the carboy but, it's the effect of dry hopping that I
am looking for and not just the ease of the operation.  It is well
worth the effort and really only adds another 15 min. or so to the
bottling procedure.  As far as using hop bags in the boil and then
reusing them for dry hop is like saving your boiling hops for your
next batch.  If you use fresh hops for bittering then I use fresh
hop for dry hopping.  Really, it does not cost that much more to 
use fresh hops, it makes a better homebrew.

Hop Bags:

  I have tried hopping in hop bags and without and the brews without
have had a better bitterness and aroma without.  You all realize that
this is purely subjective.  After reading Dave Lines' 'The Big Book
of Brewing' it seems to me that more flavor of the hops is released
when they are allowed to bubble freely in your wort rather than just
roll around in a bag.  I always wondered how you get the hop flavor
from those hops stuck in the middle of the bag?  Any way, I strain off
as much as I can when I transfer the wort to a siphon bucket I use
with my wort chiller.  Again, I use plug hops so I do not have the grit
problem with pellets.  What leaf/plug hops the strainer does not get
stays in my siphon bucket.  Just one more of the many different ways in
the world of brewing a better beer.

Bread Yeast:

  Yeuck!!!!!  I tried this in a pinch one time and will NEVER make that
mistake again.  A most terrible yeast after taste.

Malt Aroma:

  This is a very interesting question and one that I thought would
bring out all the master brews comments.  Not being a master brewer,
yet, and only just finished my fourth all grain batch, all grain is
the way to go and it's more fun too, I will put my two dollars, inflation
is such a bother, in on what little has been written for homebrewers.
I seems that the German beers seem to impart that malt aroma and taste.
There seems to be a corrilation between this and the type of barley they
use.  I have a batch going now based on Papazians' Honey lager where I
substitued 5 lbs. of Munich malt for the extract.  I also toasted 2 of
the 5 lbs. based on Papazian.  I am hoping that this gives a more malt
aroma and taste, alas I am still three weeks away from bottling.  The
only other soulution is to experiment with all grain batches.  I cannot
see how an extract brewer could get more malt into their brew without
using grain that made up more than 50% of the O.S.G.  Just a thought.
Has anyone asked Papazian or Miller or Burch?

Last A Question:

  Please define what constitutes a CREAM ALE.  Another mystery of brewing.

	...Ralph...  ("What's going to happen.....Something wonderful!!!")

ralph at ecn.purdue.edu

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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 09:20:48 EDT
From: Dale Veeneman <dev1 at gte.com>
Subject: Re: Controlling fermenter temperature

> Does anyone have any comments on using heated-air cabinets as
> opposed to water baths, or any other clever ideas?

Since the wood stove causes large temperature variations upstairs
in the (New England) winter, I started fermenting in the basement.
This worked fine until the basement temp dropped to around 50 (too
cold for ales, not cold enough for lagers).  So I built a carboy
sized cabinet out of 3/4" plywood.  It has a false bottom (with holes
drilled through it) into which I placed a doorless toaster oven.
The oven is controlled by a regular room thermostat (through a relay)
placed in the upper part near the carboy.  The oven control is turned
way down (about 100 degrees) so the whole thing doesn't over-heat.
It works great, keeping the carboy at a constant 65 degrees (or
whatever the thermostat is set to).

Dale  

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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 09:28:33 CDT
From: dyer at marble.rtsg.mot.com (Bill Dyer)
Subject: ppm -> mg/l

OK one last word and I'll shut up about this thing.  As far as all the
brewing books I've read, ppm is indeed equal to mg/l, no matter what I 
said the first time.  However, as was mentioned, ppm is not a very useful
measurement if you are concerned about the actual ionic concentration
of a solution (number of ions in solution).  For instance 1 ppm of Ca 
does NOT have the same ionic concentration as 1 ppm of Na.  Also, strictly 
speaking, 1 ppm = 1 mg/l only at 4 degrees C where 1 cc of water weighs 
(has a mass of, actually) 1 gram.  If you are interested in the actual
number of ions in solution, you will have to use the formula I posted
a couple days ago (similar to the one Tom Strasser posted).  As far as 
I am concerned, the total ions in solution should be more important 
than their weight in solution (chemically speaking), but as was stated, 
it is much more convenient to state measurements in mass/volume since 
most people can handle this easier, even though there is a simple 
conversion from  weight to number of molecules in a substance if you 
have a periodic chart handy.  OH well, enough said, back to brewing!

 -Bill Dyer

P.S.  Someone stated that 1 liter of water = 1000 mg, it actually 
	  = 1000 grams = 1000000 mg.

_____________________________________________________________________________
|  I wish I could sit on soft pillows,      |Bill Dyer  (708) 632-7081      |
|  and eat molten lava.                     | dyer at motcid.rtsg.mot.com      |
|                     -King Missle          | or  uunet!motcid!dyer         |


- ----- End Included Message -----


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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 09:44:05 CDT
From: dyer at marble.rtsg.mot.com (Bill Dyer)
Subject: Re: bush beer

>	 I have heard of a beer from the Cook Islands called bush beer
>	it's made from oranges. Has anyone made this or tasted this or....
>	Just curious it sounds real intersting. 
>	RH

Thats very interesting, because just yesterday I was trying to think 
what to brew for my next batch and while I was thinking "Oranges" came
to me in a fit of insanity.  OK everybody, will throwing some oranges 
in the brew make good beer or will it just screw everything up.  I have
heard of lemon beer and people put lemons and limes in their beer 
all the time at imbibing time, but I've never heard of oranges until
just now.  What do you think, should I go for it?  What other fruits
have people put in beer besides the standard berry and cherry kind of 
things?  

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Date: Tuesday, 30 Jul 1991 10:58:00 EDT
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re:  Skimming the Wort

>Date:         Wed, 24 Jul 91 11:07:04 CDT
>From: kevin vang <MN033302 at VM1.NoDak.EDU>

>2.  Having sterilized my equipment extra thoroughly, I was
>making a new batch Sunday.  Just before the wort came to a boil,
>a thick layer of ugly scum float- ed to the surface, as usual.
>I was about to skim it off like I usually do, when I asked
>myself, "Are these the degraded protein molecules so necessary
>for body and head retention?  Is this the reason I've always had
>problems with head retention?" So, in the name of science, I
>stirred the scum back into the wort.  I'll report on the results
>later on if anybody's interested.  Anybody know for sure (or
>have a blowhard opinion) if the scum should be removed or left
>in?

Well, IMHO (not IMBO), I have never heard of skimming of this hot
break (I think you are referring to the hot break).  I just
siphon off it after the boil is finished.

So, can anyone come up with a reason to skim?

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
           (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 09:58:38 -0500
From: zentner at ecn.purdue.edu (Michael Zentner)
Subject: Re: Boulder "Stout"


Anton E. Skaugset writes about Boulder Stout.  I, too, did not like it
at all.  It tasted like very thin iced coffee to me as well.  It was
very disappointing after tasting what I thought to be a quite good,
albeit not extremely heavy, Boulder Porter.  The best thing I can say
about the stout was that it was extremely a clean flavour.

Mike Zentner

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Date: Tuesday, 30 Jul 1991 10:58:38 EDT
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re: Too Much Yeast??

>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1991 11:29 EST
>From: BAUGHMANKR at CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU

>>OK, so how much yeast is too much yeast?
>Greg Noonan recommends 1/4 c. slurry per 5 gallon batch.

So, is more than this too much?

>>What are the flavor repercussions?
>I'm not sure about this one but I think excessive esters will be
>produced in a too rapid fermentation.

Yes, but the question of initial yeast population is a different
one (IMHO) than speed of fermentation.  The "lag time" is the
amount of time it takes for the yeast to reproduce and build up a
sufficient population to start the fermentation.  More initial
yeast, less "lag time".  Too much initial yeast?  I don't know.

>>Are there any warning signs?
>Yeah, beer foaming all over the place.  Fermentation over in a
>couple of days.

I don't know as I agree with that.  My fermentations haven't
seemed to *end* any faster, they just *begin* faster with more
yeast.

>>If I pitch a whole lot-o-yeast, should I not aerate so much?
>You can't aerate too much unless you're shooting straight O2
>into the cooled wort.  The beautifully simple suggestion of
>drilling an 1/8" (or two?) hole towards the end of the siphon
>hose sounds like the way to go.  It wouldn't hurt to slosh the
>beer around in the fermenter as well.

Again, I have the same question as the original questioner.  My
understanding is that you aerate the wort to allow the yeast to
be fruitful (not fruity) and multiply.  Yeast don't need any
oxygen to *ferment*, just to reproduce.  So, if you put in enough
yeast, they won't need to reproduce (can start fermenting right
away) and won't need any oxygen at all.  (At least this is what
logic tells me, but is it right?)

John "Enquiring minds want to know" DeCarlo

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
           (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Tuesday, 30 Jul 1991 11:00:51 EDT
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re:  More Yeast

>Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1991 21:59 EST
>From: BAUGHMANKR at CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU
>Subject: For Sale: Yeast Bite Ointment

>Quoting from _Malting and Brewing Science_, page 539.

"... During exponential
growth (this is primary fermentation, I assume) ..."

I would have guessed that this was the reproductive phase.  I
thought that primary fermentation began after the reproductive
phase ended.

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
           (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 09:10 CDT
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: boil

 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 
 
                           MALTING BARLEY
 
 
 I am trying to malt my own barley and have come to recall why I gave up on 
 the idea the first time I tried it about 15 years ago.
 
 The germination rate is only about 30% which results in mashing about 70% 
 rotten mush.
 
 My first reaction is that it is just old barley but the 15 time interval (and 
 new barley of course) with the same results makes me suspicious.
 
 It now occurs to me that there may be a trick to breaking the dormancy of 
 barley.  
 
 Does anyone have any advice?
 
 Has anyone out there malted barley?
 ...............
 
 Am I correct to assume that when rice or other grains are use in beer that 
 they are malted like barley?
 
 arf
 
 

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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 09:16:21 MDT
From: zepf at Central.Sun.COM
Subject: Re: mg/L to ppm


My water analysis from the city mentioned that mg/L = ppm.
I believe this holds only for water.


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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 11:11 EDT
From: "Russell D. Shilling" <SHILLING%UNCG.BITNET at ncsuvm.cc.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Pumpkin Ale


I am interested in concocting the 'Punkin Ale' recipe in this Summer's
Zymurgy.

The recipe calls for a 9 pound pumpkin.  Being lazy, and due to the
paucity of perfect pumpkins I wish to forego my purist pangs of
conscience and use canned.   Can anyone suggest the quantity of
canned pumpkin to use so that I can avoid having 5 gallons of
putrescent, purulent brew?


Russell Shilling
SHILLING at UNCG.BITNET
SHILLING at STEFFI.ACC.UNCG.EDU

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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 11:03:37 EDT
From: eisen at kopf.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Carl West)
Subject: Re:  Biting yeast


Ahh, yeast bite, yup, now I know I know what it tastes like, it's a bitterness 
that climbs onto the back of your tongue about 30 seconds to a minute 
after you've swallowed the beer and it stays there for about half an hour. 

I've got a little bit left if anyone wants a taste.


Carl (learning by mistakes) West


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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 10:48:20 EDT
From: eisen at kopf.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Carl West)
Subject: saving malt aromatics 


I can see it now, some malthead is going to put a fitting on the lid of 
his boiling pot so he can attach his counter-flow wort cooler and cool 
the steam coming off his wort, and he'll be careful that the boil doesn't 
get so high that it blocks the lid-fitting with bits of hops. 

*Then* he'll probably go and save this precious distilled essence of malt 
and hop aroma and add it back in to the secondary, or in an extreme case 
he might add it to the beer at bottling time.

Jeeze, it's scary just thinking about the extremes someone might go to to 
get a particular flavor in their beer. 

Why not settle for something simple, y'know, like a lambic.

Carl
___________________________________________________________
This is just a spur-of-the-moment idea, I make no promises.
- -----------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 11:12:48 EDT
From: eisen at kopf.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Carl West)
Subject: saving yeast 

Well, I went and did it. I bottled last night and when I got to 
the yeast cake I swirled it all around and siphoned it into three
12oz bottles and stuck them in the fridge.

The question:

Before I stirred it up I noticed that there was a light colored 
layer on the very bottom and a darker layer on top of that.
 
Not that I can figure out how to separate them, 
but would I have preferred just one of those layers?

Carl


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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 12:21:40 EDT
From: ... the seasons change ... <strahs at murex.bioc.aecom.yu.edu>
Subject: yet another stuck (top) fermentation; also, Vermont beers

	My third batch of homebrew has been stuck now for about 3 weeks.
	
	Started off with 1 can M+F light unhopped, boiled with 1 lb. crushed
crystal malt, 1 lb. corn sugar, 2 oz. Cluster hops and 1 tsp. non-iodized table salt (I couldn't resist).  Final volume was ~3.5 gal.  I cooled the wort in 
about 40 minutes in the covered brew kettle in the sink, strained out the 
hops and spent grain while pouring into the primary fermenter and pitched 
Red Star Ale Yeast straight from the packets into the fermenter.  The wort 
was brought up to five gallons by the addition of 1.5 gal. sterile (boiled) 
water.

	The wort bubbled for a few hours the next day and stopped.  I waited
a week, siphoned off some of the wort, re-boiled, placed in a sterile beer
bottle fitted with an airlock and added another packet of Red Star Ale Yeast
to that.  The next day that was going strongly, so I pitched it back into 
the primary.  The primary fermented longer this time (about a day) before
slacking and dying.  The ferment has now been stationary for more that 2
weeks.  

	This ferment is nowhere near complete... Any ideas?

	I thought the wort would be aerated enough by the straining.  Even 
if it wasn't, I have picked up the primary and shaken it in an effort to
aerate the beer.  

	All help greatly appreciated.

						Dan Strahs
						strahs at murex.bioc.aecom.yu.edu

	BTW: Was in Vermont 2 weeks ago... picked up several local brews from
	the Catamount and Long Trail breweries...  The Long Trail brews are
	very hoppy, but the Catamount brews are very good... Highly reccomended
	are the Catamount Gold and the Catamount Porter... The Catamount
	Amber was also good, but they added Galena hops which I felt really
	overwhelmed the malt.


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Date: Mon, 22 Jul 91 07:42:06 -0400
From: David J. Sylvester <sylveste at wsfasb.crd.ge.com>
Subject: Lager question

Hi

	Here's a question for all the lager experts out there. I bottled a
lager yesterday that had been fermenting for four weeks at 45-50F. The
recipe used 4lb of a John Bull hopped lager extract and about 1-1/2 cups of
crystal malt. When I prepared the wort I didn't realize that the extract was
hopped, so I may have used too much hops. I used 1oz of Cluster pellets in
the boil and 1-1/4 oz Hallataur pellets as a finishing hop. The yeast was
Whitbread lager yeast. Here's what happened:

It appeared as if fermenting was done. I was noticing no signs of activity in
teh air lock. When I started bottling, I found the beer was very gassy. For
example, when I siphoned from the fermenter to a carboy, the beer foamed up in
the carboy, almost like a head. When I put the beer in bottles (160z Grolsch 
with good gaskets) I saw bubbles rising in the beer after I sealed the botlles.

Did I bottle too soon? Is this bubbling continued fermentation? It was very hot
when I bottled, so the temperature change in the wort was great. Once I got
the bottles back in the 'fridge at about 40F, the bubbles stopped rising.

Comments. Thanx in advance.

E-mail is OK too.


Dave Sylvester


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Date: Mon, 22 Jul 91 09:45:09 EDT
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Stainless Steel

Stainless steel does not necessarily attract a magnet.  The easiest way
to detect aluminum (besides its weight) is its softness.  Of course,
store owners don't like you scratching up the merchandise!

=Spencer W. Thomas 		HSITN, U of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109
spencer at med.umich.edu		313-747-2778


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Date: Mon, 22 Jul 91 07:04:52 PDT
From: Richard.Stueven at Corp.Sun.COM (Richard Stueven)
Subject: Ginseng Beer

In HBD #684, Art Medlar asks:

>Speaking of Chinatown, has anyone tried brewing with ginseng ?  
>A beer than not only cures its own hangover, but is an
>aphrodisiac to boot....  Sounds too good to be legal.

Brown Street Brewery in Napa CA has both a light and a dark ginseng
ale.  The brewer claims that he "invented" the recipe a couple of years
ago, but in any case, it's quite a tasty brew.  He also does a GREAT
chili beer (brewed with jalapenos), a very nice brown ale, and four
other excellent brews.  How he maintains eight fresh beers with only
two tanks is beyond me...

have fun

gak

I guess there's some things          |      Seems like the more I think I know
I'm not meant to understand          |                 The more I find I don't
Ain't life a riot? Ain't love grand? | Every answer opens up so many questions
Richard Stueven                gak at Corp.Sun.COM                ...!attmail!gak

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Date: Sun, 21 Jul 91 17:32:59 EDT
From: William R Tschantz <wtschant at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: Yeast Question

Hi there, this is my first posting to htis forum after lurking in the woodwork 
for several months.  I really enjoy this forum!

I have a question about culturing yeast.  So far I have poured agar slants and 
innoculated the slant with the yeast.  My question is about how to store the 
slant after the yeast have grown on it.  DO you store it in the refrigerator as
- --you would for bacteria or in a dark cool place or else where?  I am doing 
this on the fly without any kind of references.  I am applying the microbiology
techniques that i know for E. coli and am using materials that are our lab to 
grow the yeast.  Thanks in advance for your help.

Thanks, Bill

Bill Tschantz          |       Homebrew             Better living through     
Chemistry Department   |        or  a        ===>   Chemistry and Microbiology
Ohio State University  |      Good  Beer            (ingredients and bugs) 
(614) 292-7451         |                                                       
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 10:42:15 PDT
From: grumpy!cr at uunet.UU.NET (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: Hop teas vs dry hopping


From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)

>  This talk of dryhopping and clogged siphons got me thinking (don't worry
>I'll be careful).  Why not heat up some hops, strain it, and put the "tea"
>into the fermenter, in effect, wet-hopping?  

Well of course you could do this, but the effect would not be the same as
dry hopping. The reason we dry hop is that dry hopping imparts volatile
hop aromatics (things with funny names like geraniol) into the beer. Because
they are volatile, they are driven off easily during the boil. By making a
hop tea, you will drive off the aromatics just as you would during the boil.
In short, hop teas are no substitute for dry hopping.

After careful research and experimentation, I have determined that :

	ppm = 42;
	mg/l = 6 X 8;

Further evidence suggests that these two quantities may in fact be equal,
but the program is still running.

CR

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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 11:23:30 PDT
From: grumpy!cr at uunet.UU.NET (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: Biting Yeast



In HBD 690, Kinney Baughman writes :

>Quoting from _Malting and Brewing Science_, page 539.  (I hope 
>you're ready for this.  

.....Proceeds with quote which I for one wasn't ready for ;-}
and finishes with.

>Leaving yeast for long periods in contact with beer may also 
>induce autolysis and the products released IMPART A BITTER TASTE 
>(YEAST-BITE) TO THE BEVERAGE." (emphasis mine) 

Finally concluding :

>Whew!!  That's the best I could come up with.  No matter what the 
>particulars are, it sounds like "yeast bite" is a product of 
>autolysis.

Yeast autolysis can definitely wreck havoc upon your beer. Miller suggests
leaving the dregs from your fermenter out in the open to give a sense for 
unforgettable stench given off by autolysis. However, my understanding is
that yeast bite and autolysis are different phenomena. Yeast bite is
allegedly caused by pitching too much yeast, thereby largely circumventing
the reactions that normally occur during the yeast's respiratory/growth phase.
I read somewhere (maybe Noonan?) that yeast bite is more of a concern of 
commercial breweries, and that homebrewers weren't likely to encounter it
unless they pitched the entire dregs from one batch into another.

In any case, it sounds like yeast bite is nothing to *worry* about.

CR

"Homebrew makes you smarter by weeding out the weak brain cells."


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Date:     Tue, 30 Jul 91 14:41:52 EDT
From: Fred Widall (DP Systems Assurance) <dp70 at watdcs.UWaterloo.ca>
Subject:  Canadian Amateur Brewers Assoc.

Does anyone out in netland have an address for, or information
on the Canadian Amateur Brewers Assoc. (I think that's what
its called).

Thanks in advance.

Fred.

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Date: 30 Jul 91 14:47:55 EST
From: RJS153%SYSU at ISS1.AF.MIL
Subject: Missing Fermentation?

I know the key is to relax and not worry, but I am concerned.  Me and a
buddy bottled last Fri night, and now 4 days later the bottles do not
show any sign of activity.  Should we be able to see something going on
in there?  There is some sediment that could be new yeast that's settled,
but I don't see any bubbles from CO2.  Is my concern warranted?  If the
yeast has croaked, should we open the bottles and pop some new yeast in
each one?  We did the original fermentation in a 5 gal carboy with a blow
off tube and then later put on an airlock when things calmed down.  The
entire time in the carboy was 13 days.

Thanks,

- --Randy--


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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 11:54:46 PDT
From: polstra!jdp at uunet.UU.NET (John Polstra)
Subject: Lies, Damn Lies, and PPM

Amidst all the rampant confusion and misinformation regarding PPM vs. mg/l,
srussell at snoopy.msc.cornell.edu (Stephen Russell) says in HBD #690:

> But, hey, let's let Tom [Strasser] and John Polstra fight it out ...

Fine, I'm game.

First, let's review the original question that was asked, in HBD #688,
by rich at progress.COM (Rich Lenihan):

> Both the town and apartment water analysis report substances in terms
> of milligrams per litre but all of the brewing guides I've read talk
> about ppm (parts per million).  Is there any way to convert mg/l into
> ppm?

So that's the question: how do we convert from mg/l into ppm?  My
response in HBD #689 was:

> ... for all practical purposes, the two units of measure are the same.

Let's take a look at the "Conversion Factors" table in the back of the
CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics.  Lo and behold, we find the
following (this is a direct quote, and the footnote appears in the
original):

    To convert from		to		multiply by
    ---------------		--		-----------
    ...				...		...
    milligrams/liter		parts/million*	1
    ...				...		...

    *Density of 1 gram per milliliter of solvent.

In homebrewing the solvent is water, and *for all practical purposes*
(that's what I wrote), the density of water is 1 gram per milliliter.
We'll come back to that in a moment.

In case further evidence is needed, I cite the following direct quote
from the Seattle Water Department's 1989 water analysis report:

    Results given in Milligrams per liter, i.e., parts per million (ppm).

Now, also in HBD #689, dyer at marble.rtsg.mot.com (Bill Dyer) came up
with a complicated answer involving atomic weights:

> ppm = (10^6 * wsolid * awliquid * m)/(awsolid * wliquid)

which was hailed in HBD #690 by strasser at raj2.tn.cornell.edu (Tom Strasser)
as the one true answer.  While there probably exists a question to
which the above equation is the correct answer, that question is not
the one that was asked.  Both Bill Dyer and Tom Strasser seem to think
that PPM means atoms per million atoms, but it simply does not mean
that.  In water analysis, PPM is in terms of mass, not atoms and not
volume.  Always.  Period.  Don't take my word for it -- get on the
phone and talk to the chemist at your local water department.

Now back to the density issue.  In HBD #690, Steve
Thornton <NETWRK at HARVARDA.HARVARD.EDU> writes:

> 1 liter does indeed equal 1000 grams -- of pure water at 4 Centigrade.

Actually, it's at 3.98 degrees Centigrade, if you want to get picky
about it.  And at 20 degrees C (roughly room temperature) it is 998.23
grams, which again *for practical purposes* is 1000 grams.  Do you think
your scale has an accuracy of 0.2%?

> You wouldn't expect a liter of Mercury to weigh the same as a liter of
> alcohol, would you?

In water analysis, which is what we are discussing, the solvent is
water.  Not mercury.  Not alcohol.

> Since you're trying to discover the amount of stuff in your water that
> isn't water, it seems reasonable to assume that it will not have a
> density of 1.0, right? So, I'm afraid you're going to have to go back
> to the calculating board and figger it out.

What matters is the density of the solvent (water), not of the solute.
However, this comment does bring up an interesting (but *for practical
purposes* insignificant) point.  The CRC Handbook seems to imply (but
does not directly state) that PPM is the ratio of solute to solvent.  In
that case, the density of the solute would not matter at all.  However,
sometimes the concentrations of solutions are expressed as the ratio of
solute to *solution*, i.e., solute/(solute+solvent).  In that case, the
density of the solute would enter into the equation.  But again, for the
concentrations involved in brewing and in water analysis, there would be
no *practical* difference.  Remember, at 100 PPM (a typical value) we
are talking about a solute concentration of 0.01%.  In a liter of water,
that's 0.1 grams out of 1000 grams.  You couldn't even measure the
difference at home.

Sorry for the strident tone of this posting, but when I am "corrected"
with unsubstantiated misinformation, it makes me grumpy.

   John Polstra               polstra!jdp at uunet.uu.net
   Polstra & Co., Inc.           ...!uunet!polstra!jdp
   Seattle, Washington USA              (206) 932-6482
   "Self-knowledge is always bad news."  -- John Barth

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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 12:44:56 PDT
From: tima at apd.MENTORG.COM (Tim Anderson)
Subject: re: Controlling fermenter temperature

David Taylor writes:

>  I am about to brew some batches with ale yeast and
>need to control the fermenter temperature. To date I've used a flat, flexible
>waterbed heater (300W) wrapped around a plastic fermenter with the sensor poked
>between the heater and fermenter. ...

Last winter, I bought some apparently not new enough Wyeast yeast, and was
wailing and gnashing my teeth as brew day approached and the foil pouch was
showing little interest in inflating.  I begged my wife to shoot me, but
instead, she suggested I do what she does with balky bread dough.  Which is,
set it on a heating pad set to a low temperature and cover it with a towel.

This worked so well that I went berserk and wrapped the starter bottle in the
pad with a towel around it.  And did the same thing with the carboy.  (The 
heating pad isn't really big enough to "wrap" around the carboy.  I just
rubber-banded it to the side, set the carboy on a few thicknesses of towel,
and wrapped more towels around it.)  Surprisingly, the "low" setting was enough
to keep the beer several degrees above room temperature.

When winter returns to the Northern Hemisphere, I'm sure we'll be fighting over
our one ancient heating pad.  Gives me a warm feeling just thinking about it.


tim    (I'm trying to get her to quilt me a "carboy cozy")


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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 16:09:38 EDT
From: bob at wraith.netops.contel.com (Robert L. Allen)
Subject: Surface Mail address for AHA

Would somebody be so kind as to mail me the address for AHA? I've been
growing my own barley for some years now and want to try making some
malt.  A few issues back someone mentioned a back issue of Zymurgy as
being a good source of info.

Thanks.

					Bob Allen
					bob at wraith.netops.contel.com

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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 13:37 CDT
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Re: Dryhopping

Sorry Bill and everyone else.
I use pellets for the boil in a hop bag so I don't have to strain
them out later, and whole-leaf hops (without a hop bag) for dryhopping.
The pellets disperse throughout the whole kettle and I would rather pull
them out with the bag, cool the wort with my immersion chiller, and then
pour the wort carefully into the carboy through a large, funnel.  The
funnel has a sieve in the bottom, which periodically clogs with trub
anyway (at which time I stop pouring, let it drain, and dump the sieve).
It would clog instantly if I didn't use a hop bag.  By the way, I think
hop bags (and grain bags, for that matter) are not nylon but polyester
(however, I may be wrong).

Al.
korz at ihlpl.att.com

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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 13:45 CDT
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Re: wet-hopping

Russ suggests:
>Why not heat up some hops, strain it, and put the "tea"
>into the fermenter, 

I'm not 100% sure, but I think that as soon as you begin heating the
hops, you begin losing aromatics, which is the main reason for dryhopping
anyway: HOP BOUQUET.  I used to put up to an ounce of Hallertauer pellets
into the kettle after turning off the heat, and let them sit there for
two hours with the cover on the kettle, but never got the hop nose I get
when dryhopping with an ounce of Hallertauer leaf hops.
Al.

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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 11:49 PDT
From: dougd at uts.amdahl.com (Douglas DeMers)
Subject: Re:  Homebrew Digest #690 (July 30, 1991)

>From: Ted Manahan <tedm at hpcvcbp.cv.hp.com>
>Subject: Bread yeast
>[...]
>I tried it for soda pop once. It carbonates just fine, but gave the pop
>a "yeasty" flavor and didn't compact well at the bottom of the bottle.
>It was impossible to pour off a clean glass of pop without lots of yeast
>sediment in the glass.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what kind of yeast to use for
making homebrewed root beer?   This is for the kids, of course:-).  The
recipe with the extract says to use bread yeast...

Root beer is/should be somewhat sweet, so there will still be
fermentables in the pop unless I use some "fake" sugar.  I may just try
a beer yeast when I make the root beer.  Better still, if I'm
motivated, I may divide the batch in two portions and try a controlled
experiment between bread yeast versus beer yeast!


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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 14:08 CDT
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Re: boil

In my opinion, Leigh P. Beadle is misguided.  The only extract that
I know of that has active enzymes is Edme DMS Extract.  Unless he
is doing a partial mash, he is *dead wrong*.  Also, I don't want all
my sugars to be converted to fermenable sugars -- I like a little
residual sweetness -- even if there were active enzymes in the extract.
I suggest that Mr Beadle should read George Fix's "Principles of Brewing
Science."
Al.

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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 16:19:20 PST
From: Larry Gerstley <ldgerstl at uci.edu>
Subject: When beer goes bad (look out!)


> At a tasting last night, someone said something we all "know", and a
> little light went on:  "Homebrew can't make you sick!"
>
> *BZZT!*  Wrong!  True, an infected beer is not likely to pass its
> infection on to you.

   Maybe not, but it can give you a few ideas.  My brewing partner and
   I got ahold of a bottle of San Andreas' Earthquake Porter during an
   afternoon of comparison tasting - an excuse to avoid all
   responsibilities.  Anyway, the taste was so sour that it was hard
   to believe that it was beer at all.  When we asked others about the
   brand, several commented that it was a bit sweet for their liking,
   and have since discovered that we got a bad bottle.  Bad - but
   actually *great* once our palettes adjusted to it.

   Does anyone know of controlled methods of souring a beer without
   letting the bacteria run rampant?  The owner of our neighborhood
   supply store warned against the growth of *fecal* bacteria with one
   method - so we're reluctant to even try.


> Every book I have ever read and every person I have asked, says bread yeast
> makes yucky beer but I have never heard it from anyone who has ever actually
> tried it.

   You can make bread with beer, though.  Use malt extract instead of
   honey in any recipe that calls for it.  I am going to try to bake
   bread with beer yeast and use homebrew in the recipe.


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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 14:37 CDT
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Correction

Yesterday, when I said "a couple of dry beer yeasts," I meant
"a couple of dry yeasts intended for making beer."  Sorry.
Al.

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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 17:50:15 EDT
From: cjh at vallance.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: re Yeast Bite Ointment

>				  During exponential 
> growth (this is primary fermentation, I assume)

My recollection is that Papazian and Miller actually agree (!) that growth
(yeast -> YEAST!!) and fermentation ( sugar -> ethanol & CO2 ) are two
separate phases. When you pitch the yeast starts doubling every N minutes
(N controlled mostly by temperature and aeration?); by the time you see
krausen the yeast has reproduced about as much as it's going to and is
using sugar for energy instead of construction.

> are bounded by a single membrane and contain hydrolytic enzymes 
> (these guys react with water producing a weak acid OR base)

True in a close sense but leaves out the hydrolyzed party. Hydrolysis is
the reversal of a reaction in which two substances (frequently an ester and
an organic acid) were merged into one by squeezing out water, e.g.:

			   H+
	H3CCOOH + HOCH2CH3 -> H3CCOOCH2CH3 + H20

(acetic acid + ethanol, catalyzed by acid, yields ethyl acetate + water)

The most familiar reversal of this is called saponification:

	H3C(CH2)nCOO-CH2
		     |	        NaOH
	H3C(CH2)nCOO-CH    +3H20  ->	3 H3C(CH2)nCOOH + HOH2CCHOHCH2OH
		     |			-> H3C(CH2)nCOONa
	H3C(CH2)nCOO-CH2

fat catalyzed by alkali yields soap plus glycerine.

(Hydrolysis will produce weak acids or weak bases depending on the catalyst
and the ingredients. In this case the fatty acid will immediately react
with the catalyst (as shown), but the fatty acid is weak enough that its
salt, in the absence of strong alkali, will absorb H+ from (increase pH of,
alkalinify) the water it's dissolved in.)

What is produced in the presence of hydrolytic enzymes in the chemical stew
that is beer? Your guess is as good as mine, but it certainly won't be
what you started with. Since beer is already slightly acidic, you could
convert some of your flavor/odor esters to, e.g., acetic or butyric acids,
which smell/taste like vinegar and rancid butter respectively.

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #691, 07/31/91
*************************************
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