---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Harvesting hops in the northeast region. (Sean Conway)
  Bitte Ein Bit! (Derek)
  more brewpot queries (card)
  In defense of M&F (Fritz Keinert)
  New edition of Papazian's book due out soon. (Dave Shaver)
  Bitburger kegs (06-Aug-1991 1023)
  Yet, still, even more on dry hopping (GERMANI)
  Time to pour (wbt)
  Re: Homebrew Digest #694 (August 05, 1991) (Tim Nickles)
  schmod (Jeff La Coss)
  Bitburger Pils and Germany in General (Norm Hardy)
  Singha.. (Percy)
  Used casks, cider (Donald P Perley)
  Re: Yeast (korz)
  Mead Recipes... (Percy)
  Re: refridgerator questions (Kurt Swanson)
  re plastics (Chip Hitchcock)
  Great Taste of the Midwest (jwb)
  Efficiency of Dry-Hopping (Stephen Russell)
  Toxic Homebrew (hersh)
  stuck fermentation / hot break question (Brian Bliss)
  Damn Lies & PPM (hersh)
  Oatmeal Stout recipe request (Robert N Keil)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmi at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmi at hplabs.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 91 09:45:56 EDT
From: sean at evi.com (Sean Conway)
Subject: Harvesting hops in the northeast region.


I know a couple of months ago there was a lot of discussion about when your
hops are ready to harvest, alas, I cannot relax and have a homebrew!

Can any veteran hop harvesters in the Boston area post or Email me when you
start harvesting your hops.  I'm growing some Cascade and Nuggets for the
first year and have a abundance of nice bug "springy" hop cones.  After
crushing one, I can smell a nice hop aroma, however, the smell is not yet
overwhelming.  Also, I don't "see" any of the oils or resins characteristics of
hops, just the orange pollen.

adTHANKSvance.

INTERNET: sean at evi.com
UUCP:     {..uupsi!evi!sean}

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Date:         Tue, 06 Aug 91 10:09:53 EST
From: Derek <DKATZ at HARVARDA.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject:      Bitte Ein Bit!

Bitburger, motto as above (please, a Bit!), was one of the standard
bar beers to found in Berlin when I was living there five years ago.
It wasn't anything special off the tap there, so I wouldn't be
too optimistic about it in keglets in N. H., either.

Derek Katz

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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 91 09:17:17 EDT 
From: card at apollo.hp.com
Subject: more brewpot queries


  Hi: 

  At the risk of beating a subject to death, I would much appreciate 
  further clarification re: 5 gallon boiler for all grain brewing. 

  I do realize you can't squeeze 6.5 gallons of wort into a 5 gallon 
  boiler (too messy) BUT, rather than make a sizable investment for an 
  8 gallon brewpot, my thought was to only boil ~ 4 gallons and dilute 
  it in either the primary or secondary vessel with boiled and chilled 
  water, bringing it up to 5 gallons - very similar to my extract 
  method. 

  Am I missing something? 

  /Mal Card 


  p.s. I've read them all re: sparging and everyone seems to have 
       different opinions (papazian loves the double plastic pail 
       tun, while Miller claims the false bottom is too far off the 
       real bottom yielding inefficiencies). Well anyways, I like the 
       simple method described of Byron Burch, of the mesh bag into a 
       plastic container with a spigot.

       But what keeps the water from channeling through to the sides 
       leaving the sweet wort trapped in the middle?  He calls for 
       an all mesh bag but wouldn't it make more sense to have a bag 
       with solid sides and mesh only at the bottom? 


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Date: Tue, 06 Aug 91 09:25:16 CDT
From: Fritz Keinert <keinert at iastate.edu>
Subject: In defense of M&F

In digest #695, korz at ihlpl.att.com writes

>> Subject: In defense of M&F

>> Among the many brands of extract that I've used, four of my best
>> batches have been made with M&F Old Ale Extract.

I really don't know what there is to defend (I must have missed the
original post he is referring to), but I also have made several of my
best batches of beer with M&F Old Ale. I have had good success with
most of their other products, too.

Fritz Keinert
keinert at iastate.edu

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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 91 9:27:42 CDT
From: shaver at orion.convex.com (Dave Shaver)
Subject: New edition of Papazian's book due out soon.

Although this may not be news to everyone, Charlie Papazian has the
second edition of his "The Complete Joy of Home Brewing" due out soon.
A local bookstore employee told me it would be shipping sometime around
October 1st.  The IBSN number for the second edition is 0-380-76366-4.

I've already pre-ordered my copy. ;-)

/\  Dave Shaver
\\  CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, TX
\/  Internet: shaver at convex.com    UUCP:  uunet!convex!shaver

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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 91 07:30:42 PDT
From: 06-Aug-1991 1023 <hannan at gnpike.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Bitburger kegs

"DRCV06::GRAHAM" <graham%drcv06.decnet at drcvax.af.mil> writes re:
Bitberger 5 l. keglets.

> My local supermarket has started carrying a german pilsener called
> Bitberger.  (I can't see the keg, so I'm not sure of the spelling.)
> 
> These 5 liter keglets are a good idea for a social occasion where homebrew
> might run short.  I haven't tried this beer, and don't really want to spend
> $13.59 to try it before I have an idea of it's quality.  Anyone tried
> Bitberger?  Is it a decent beer?

IMHO these keglets are the closest thing to "real German beer" that you
can get in the states, aside from some wursthaus type place where they have
*fresh* Spaten or something on tap.   Been drinking them for years now,
and Bitburger ranks as a B+, with A being the best.   As far as I know the
brew is not pastuerized (Warsteiner isn't and Reichelbrau isn't).

If the place you saw the Bitburger has Warsteiner Pils, go for the Warsteiner.
It's much better IMO, but if they just have Bitburger and you want to try
some good German brew, go for it.  It's worth the $ if you have it.  It's
a nice Pilsener.

Reichelbrau Kulmbacher is also excellent.   Forget Dinkel Acker.  DAB is also
good in kegs.   

Look for expiration date(s) on the can, if any, to make sure what you buy is
fresh.  I had a bad keg once but got a replacement.   

And don't bother with buying a tap.  The gravity taps that sometimes accompany
these kegs work great.  You might want to save the tap for future kegs bought 
with no tap.    Also plan on finishing it in 1 night (watch out if you drink 
it alone!) because it looses a lot of carbonation overnight.
 
Enjoy!

Ken ("Bitter is Better But Bavarian is Best") -> Someday I hope to have a 
	comment on Belgium, if we have any customers over there it could happen
	some day ;-)

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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1991 10:38 EST
From: GERMANI%NSLVAX at Venus.YCC.Yale.Edu
Subject: Yet, still, even more on dry hopping

Greetings,
	One thing that may help those out there that are WORRYING (for shame!)
about dry hopping was mentioned in Papazian (I think).  If you add the 
hops after a few days of fermentation then the alcohol in the wort will 
help knock out any nasties that may have hitched a ride with said hops.
Relax...
 
G'Day,

	Joe 

Bitnet: GERMANI at YALEVMS
Decnet: 44421::GERMANI


%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

What care I how time advances:
I am drinking ale today.			Poe

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 91 11:21:25 EDT
From: wbt at cbema.att.com
Subject: Time to pour

Michael Bass writes:

> I had the good fortune to attend a conference in Berlin, Germany.
> One of the interesting features of the way they
> server beers: Apparently the length of time it takes to pour a beer is
> a measure of the quality of the beer and the bartender.  It takes
> anywhere from 5 to 10 minutes to poor a good beer.  (You have to wait
> for the head to die down before you can continue to fill the glass!)

Coincidentally, a friend of mine, in a telephone call Sunday night, 
mentioned discovering a bar in Chicago which served Guinness on tap.
He marvelled that it took several minutes to pour the beer, because of the
foaming, and asked me what that meant.  

Several possibilities dawned on me, including the "new keg" foaminess
mentioned here, but he assured me that he'd investigated for a sufficiently
long time to see the keg well on its way toward emptiness. 8-)

Also, his description of the flavor didn't match with my own very well,
giving me to wonder if this bar might be serving the *real* draught Guinness 
as found in Ireland (it *is* an Irish pub).

All this makes me curious.  I can imagine ways that the type of pouring
might affect the beer; a good frothy pour would release more aroma to
tickle the nose, and perhaps the entrainment of air somehow emphasizes
the flavor and/or body.  So how is beer poured for competition judging ?

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker	AT&T Network Systems - Columbus      wbt at cbnews.att.com


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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 91 10:06:57 -0600
From: Tim Nickles <tnickles at beagle.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #694 (August 05, 1991)

my issue of this digest ( #694) was incomplete (ie. finished in middle of third 
article)
anyway please send me that issue # again
please
thanks, and relax

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Date: Tue, 06 Aug 91 09:34:52 PDT
From: Jeff La Coss <jlacoss at ISI.EDU>
Subject: schmod

 A cousin works at the Monterey Aquarium, where the gunk collecting on
the bottom of tanks is called "spooge," as in "(retch.....) Unnnnhh...
I got a whole mouthful of spooge when I started that siphon."

 Easier to pronounce than "schmod," and seems appropriate to brewing.

	Jeff

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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 91 09:10:20 PDT
From: polstra!norm at uunet.UU.NET (Norm Hardy)
Subject: Bitburger Pils and Germany in General

A question was raised about Bitburger Pils and it's quality....

BUY IT!  A 5-liter keg would be a wonderful way to closely experience
a German beer on tap.  Bitburger is one of the top selling German beers,
somewhere close to Warsteiner.  It is considered to be a well made pilsner
by those who know.  The Bitburger man is prevalent on placards outside
drinking establishments throughout Germany.

While you're at it, e-mail me a keg.


Secondly, to recommend good beer establishments in Germany is moot.  Go
anywhere that beer is served on tap (vom fass).  Relax while it is slowly
poured (actually while the foam subsides for the next blast from the keg)
and ponder how you can make the stuff at home.


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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 91 13:52:21 EDT
From: t13329 at Calvin.EDU (Percy)
Subject: Singha..


Re: the Singha beer - I don't believe it's Indian. I know of a couple
of Indian beers you can get at import stores - one is called UB
(united breweries) and the other one is Kingfisher which I recommend.
It's bloody expensive though.

Su



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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 91 14:54:12 EDT
From: perley at easygoer.crd.ge.com (Donald P Perley)
Subject: Used casks, cider


>Russ Gelinas asks:
>"Hey Darryl, speaking of used equipment, what's the chance of me picking up
>some used oak casks from the Pilsner Urquell brewery?"
>
>I don't know, but you're not the first to ask.  I bet the shipping is
>fairly high, however inexpensive the casks themselves.  Are you, or do
>you know a good cooper?

Consider that you don't want the barrels to spend any significant time
empty once they have been used, or they go sour.  I think winemakers
leave an S02 solution in if one batch of wine is used before the next
is ready.  That would add about 400 pounds to the shipping for a ~50
gallon barrel, but then you might as well get it shipped full of beer
:-).


RE cider:
>I have recently come into a mess o' apples, and would like to make some cider.
>Problem is, I don't have a cider press.  If anyone can tell me where I can
>buy (cheap), rent or borrow one in the SF Bay area I'd appreciate it.

I don't know if they come cheap.  The one I bought in 1982 was a
couple hundred bucks.  They have to be a lot sturdier than wine
presses.

Just so you can figure how much you have if you DO find some place to
press them,  I need about 25 pounds of apples for a gallon of cider,
but some apples are juicier than mine.

 -don perley

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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 91 13:31 CDT
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Re: Yeast

Carl writes:
>Walter H. Gude asks:
>>What if, rather than take the slurry out of the primary, I put new wort into
>>the primary.  
> .
> .
> .
>>Anybody tried this?
>
>Yup I tried it in a gallon batch. This is how I found out what 
>yeast-bite tastes like. When I try it again, I'm going to dump 
>out about half of the yeast. Note that I was doing single-stage 
>fermentations, so *all* the yeast from the first batch was `pitched' 
>into the second and third, just `pitching' from a primary 
>might solve the problem.

When you take half the yeast, I suggest the top half: it has been
dormant or dead a shorter time than the bottom half.  Another
poster (I believe it was Father Barleywine) who said he just dumped
new wort on the old yeast cake in the fermentor (I don't recall if
it was the primary or the secondary) and said that the beer turned
out great for a number of batches.   I make single-stage ales and
dryhop, so after I siphon off the beer, I have a real mess in my
fermentor, so I can't realistically reuse the slurry, by the simple
means described here.

Secondly, I think that the yeast in the secondary might be better
to use than that in the primary.  Any yeast that falls out of
solution in the primary (while fermentation is still going on)
is probably dead.  Yeast that falls out of solution because all the
fermentables are gone is still alive, "it's just resting."  I'm
not a microbiologist, but I suspect that the yeast that is "just
resting" is what you want to use.

Al.
korz at ihlpl.att.com

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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 91 15:06:27 EDT
From: t13329 at Calvin.EDU (Percy)
Subject: Mead Recipes...


	I'm looking for a recipe for mead. If anybody has prior
experience with this sort of brewing I'd welcome any advice you could
give me. If you don't feel that it's postable, mail directly to me.

Thanks in advance

Su Misra



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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 91 14:10:42 CDT
From: kswanson at casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Kurt Swanson)
Subject: Re: refridgerator questions

In HBD #695, mcnally questions those of us with spare 'fridges about our
setups, and states that a freezer would be good, but wants something with an
upright door - like a 'fridge.

So, don't buy a floor freezer, buy an upright one.  I just picked one up used
here in Chicago for $100 delivered.  Be sure to pick one up that has *MOVABLE*
shelves, as many have fixed shelves (coolant tubing runs within them).  I can
fit 2 carboys and still have room for 2 shelves and a door full of bottles.
Don't forget you'll need a Hunter Energy Monitor, model Airstat II, to go with
it. (In order to get the right temperature range.)  

By the way, as soon as I got my freezer, I popped on over to Builder's Square,
and lo and behold, the Air Stat was on sale again...  This makes 7 purcashes of
this same product, same outlet, same year for me...  My offer still stands:
Send me a check for $25, and I'll send you a HEM, post-paid, anywhere in the
U.S.A.  Act quick, sale ends 8/13, so I'd need to receive your check by next
tuesday...
- -- 
Kurt Swanson, Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science,
Northwestern University.  kswanson at casbah.acns.nwu.edu

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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 91 15:51:18 EDT
From: cjh at vallance.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: re plastics

   A chemist acquaintance of mine opines that the 2-liter plastic bottles
containing Watney's and Ramrod are the same as the bottles holding soda;
the plasticizers (if any) are probably \\not// soluble in ethanol (if there
were any solvent remaining, it would leach no matter what was in the bottle,
as it's volatile enough to evaporate).
   I was vigorously discouraged from using the plastic bottles that cooler
water now comes in by a prizewinner who was doing the homebrew demo at
Common Ground (organic fair in Maine). These bottles may not be approved
for anything more corrosive than water. More important, they scratch more
easily than the PET (polyethylene terephthalate) used for soda and beer;
scratched plastic is very hard to sanitize. (This is why you should replace
racking tubes and plastic fermenters every so often.)

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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 91 15:45:28 CDT
From: jwb at ra.adp.wisc.edu
Subject: Great Taste of the Midwest


The Midwest's
BEST BEERS ARE HERE
One Day Only
AT THE 5TH ANNUAL

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% GREAT TASTE OF THE MIDWEST %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Saturday, August 17, 1991
Noon until 6 p.m.
Madison, Wisconsin
 2 blocks off the Captial Square
 at the end of Martin Luther King Blvd. 
 outdoors in Olin Terrace Park overlooking Lake Monona

$12 admission includes a commemorative glass and unrestriced
tastings of some forty handcrafted pilsners, ales, bocks, 
wheat beers, ambers, porters, stouts and specialty beers from 
20 of the Midwest's finest microbreweries and brewpubs.

Sponsored by:
             The Madison Homebrewers and Tasters Guild
A benefit for:
             Community Radio WORT 89.9 FM
Admission limited to those 21 or older.
Please Drink Responsibly.

For more information, please contact Jan or Dave at:
(608) 256-5364


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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 91 17:08:40 EDT
From: srussell at snoopy.msc.cornell.edu (Stephen Russell)
Subject: Efficiency of Dry-Hopping


Ever wondered about the efficiency of dry-hopping?  Late last night, my brewing
partner and I surely did.  We had one batch ready to rack to secondary and were
about to dry hop the s**t out of it with 2 ounces of Cascades.  We had another
boiling down on the stove, our intent being to dump the new wort onto the old 
yeast cake.  As we had to boil down an especially large volume ( > 7.5 gal ), 
we had plenty of time to hit the bar scene in town and tip a few.

We came back, added the 1st hop addition to the stove-top wort, and attempted 
to add dry hops to a clean, empty, 5 gallon glass carboy.  However, despite our
best efforts, much of the hops ended up on our kitchen floor.  Rather than
immediately query the readers of this esteemed Digest (one or more of whom may
in all reality be Darryl Richman) as to the proper technique for adding dry 
hops through the neck of a carboy, we thought we would instead formulate the 
efficiency of dryhopping ourselves and post it so everyone could study it.

Let:

a = area of the carboy neck 
A = area over which the hops are actually added; this is roughly, say, the 
    size of your kitchen
(in general, a < A)
n = number of beers consumed prior to dry-hopping
O = amount of hops being added, in ounces
o = amount of hops that actually make it to the carboy, in ounces
F = efficiency of dry-hopping under sober conditions, a constant
E = o/O = actual efficiency of dry-hopping, a function of n


One would intuitively expect that as n goes to zero, E approaches 1; meaning 
that essentially *all* of the hops you are adding make it into the carboy.

However, this is not quite true in practice due to uncontrollable muscle 
spasms, unexpected crosswinds, large, mutated hop-eating cockroaches that  
often appear in a brewer's kitchen, and the fact that the $%!&?& at %# hops clump
and unclump of their own accord, usually at exactly the wrong time.  Neverthe-
less, these factors are more-or-less independent of the number of beers con-
sumed.  We'll just say that under conditions approaching sobriety that the 
limiting efficiency for dry-hopping is a number F, and typically .9 < F < 1.

Conversely, as n approaches infinity, E approaches a/A; that is, hops are 
added more or less randomly over your entire kitchen, with some just happening
to fall into the neck of your carboy.

After much calculation involving the partial differential equations for 
fluid-type flow in a kitchen-type environment under brewing-type conditions, 
we were able to derive the following formula for the efficiency of dry-hopping:

E = [F - (a/A)] * exp(-n) + (a/A)

This is more easily seen in the plot below:

    E		^
 		|.
(efficiency of	| .
 dry-hopping)   |   .
		|      .
		|          .
		|               .
		|                      .
		|                                .
		|                                                 .
		|
		-------------------------------------------------------> n  
		     n     (# of beers consumed)


Units have been left off for the purposes of obfuscation.

Does this sound about right to you folks?  Sure hope this helps in some small
way to the general improvement of brewing as we know it.

Long live the IBUs,

STEVE 


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Date: Tue, 06 Aug 91 18:52:49 EDT
From: hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Toxic Homebrew


Re: Martin Lodahl's concerns

The statement "Homebrew can't make you sick!", isn't true.
The statement that beer yeasts don't produce toxic substances is true.
The difference being that there are bacteria that can spoil not only beer that
is fermenting, but even beer that has fermented already (ie these bacteria are
resistant to the growth deterring effect of alcohol, in fact some thrive by
reducing alcohol such as acetic acid bacteria).

Fortunately for the judge these same bacteria produce nasally and often visually
(gushing, rings) apparent signs of their presence.

My question is why as a judge would you taste anything that was such obvious
symptoms of contamination. As a rule I will not score a beer that has obvious
contamination. I simply note the contamination, try to identify it fro mit's
aroma then move on. Being a beer judge may have it's responsibilities, but the
"taste at all cost" philosophy doesn't do anybody any good. Sick judges don't
judge welland risk their health, and drinking contaminated beer put contest 
organizers at risk of liability. 

Have you gotten sick from beers without obvious signs of contamination??

I would strongly advise any judges out there to let their nose be their guide.
If a beer smells (or with gushers looks) obviously contaminated, approach with
caution!!

 - Jay H


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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 91 17:58:17 CDT
From: bliss at csrd.uiuc.edu (Brian Bliss)
Subject: stuck fermentation / hot break question


> The next day no bubbles or CO2 smell/bite.  I was afraid
> the yeast was bad so I added more.  Still no luck.  After 5 days now
> it still smells OK (gingery) but does not seem to be fermenting.
 ...
>Can I save this batch or does it go on the garden?

A long as it doesn't smell bad now, try re-boiling it,
add more finisihing hops & irish moss, and pich using
a healty starter.  Don't forget to aereate!

- ------------------------------------------------------

and a quesion:

On my last batch of Ale, I got a beautiful 2" hot break in
the fermenter after about 3 hours, and was going to siphon
it off after I got a few more hours shuteye.  Alas, the whitbread
ale yeast I used took off so rapidly that the vigorous fermentation
stirred up the sediment, and was producing so much CO2 that
my siphon didin't hold a vacuum long anyway.

That was Saturday night/sunday morning.  The fermentation
is almost over, but I am planning to krausen with a more
attenuative yeast.  I added a tbsp of gelatin directly
to the fermenter and stirred, and tried dissolving another
is 1/2 cup of lukewarm water, and adding.
nothing spectacular happened.

Should I try a shitload of gelatin, a different fining agent,
Or just let it sit?

On the subject of whitbread ale yeast, has anyone noticed a
similarity in behavior between it and M & F ale yeast?

bb


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Date: Tue, 06 Aug 91 19:10:43 EDT
From: hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Damn Lies & PPM


Sorry, to me it looks like John Polstra wins hands down on this one...



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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 91 17:51:22 PDT
From: 6500keil%ucsbuxa at hub.ucsb.edu (Robert N Keil)
Subject: Oatmeal Stout recipe request


  I've been a big fan of Samuel Smith's Oatmeal Stout and would love to
try brewing an oatmeal brew.  I've looked in Papazian and didn't find all
that much in the recipes.  I'd appreciate it if someone could send me any
recipe or advice they might have on brewing these stouts.  More specifically,
can you use any type of oatmeal?  Do you have do crush or powder the grain?
Do you just add it in with the malt?  What types of malts work best with 
oatmeal?  How much oatmeal is enough?  
  Thanks for any advice!

  Robert Keil  6500keil at ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #696, 08/07/91
*************************************
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