---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  We're famous! (Richard Stueven)
  cloves? (Brian Smithey)
  Dave Line's ingredients available (Brian Smithey)
  priming bucket, DME vs corn sugar (Stephen Russell)
  Re: Bittering Units (John DeCarlo)
  Re: Priming Questions (John DeCarlo)
  Re: Fear and Loathing in the Great PPM vs. mG/L Debate... (Christopher Gene BeHanna)
  priming without a priming bucket (krweiss)
  DME vs corn sugar; bottling bucket (Donald Oconnor)
  Glassware and such (Mark Montgomery)
  A sweet ending (Frank Tutzauer)
  corn sugar (Loren Carter)
  HBD #733 & Dave Rose (larryba)
  A chuckle in the morning (Keith Winter)
  Extract yields... (Dave Rose)
  Re: wort chilling  (Stephen E. Hansen)
  Raspberry Stout (Jerry Gaiser)
  Re:  Homebrew Digest #723 (September 13, 1991) (ASQNC-TABSM 5320) <jsova at APG-EMH5.APG.ARMY.MIL>
  Re: The Famed Chico Yeast (Tom Quinn 5-4291)
  High temp fermentation (dbreiden)
  Shelf life of cultures (dbreiden)
  Re: Priming questions (korz)
  Re: bottles (korz)
  Chicha  (hersh)
  Russ Pencin (hersh)
  More yeast (Andy Leith)
  crossover  (Carl West)
  Sierra Nevada Porter  (Carl West)
  Labware Source (Martin A. Lodahl)
  Priming (Martin A. Lodahl)
  Tubing Diameters (Martin A. Lodahl)
  Flaming Yeast!  (Levuer Flambe') (Martin A. Lodahl)
  Competition listings in Zymurgy (chuck)
  Blow-off, hoses, pot-scrubbers (BAUGHMANKR)
  Two Requests (Brian Capouch)
  Easy question, and Thanks! (Peter Glen Berger)
  Wyeast (jmellby)


Send submissions to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues!]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Sep 91 07:18:40 PDT
From: Richard.Stueven at Corp.Sun.COM (Richard Stueven)
Subject: We're famous!

Quoting from the "Dear Zymurgy" section of the Fall 1991 edition, page 9:

	Editor's Note:  The internet network, accessible from many
	universities and corporations, carries a "Homebrew Digest."  To
	receive it, send electronic mail to Rob Gardner at
	HOMEBREW-REQUEST%HPFCMR at HPLABS.HP.COM

We're famous!

gak

TOOMUCHPRESSURETOOMUCHPRESSURETOOMUCHPRESSURETOOMUCHPRESSURETOOMUCHPRESSURETOO
Richard Stueven       AHA# 22584        gak at Corp.Sun.COM       ...!attmail!gak
ITMUSTSTOPITMUSTSTOPITMUSTSTOPITMUSTSTOPITMUSTSTOPITMUSTSTOPITMUSTSTOPITMUSTST


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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 91 07:15:29 PDT
From: smithey at esosun.css.gov (Brian Smithey)
Subject: cloves?

On Thu, 12 Sep 91 09:45:08 EDT,
Chris Shenton <chris at asylum.gsfc.nasa.gov> said:

Chris> I also just tried the Anchor Wheat this weekend. Very disappointing --
Chris> lacks the full body and the smooth complexity of the South German Weizens
Chris> it tries to emulate. Bummer. No cloves to speak of, either.

Anchor Wheat isn't trying to emulate South German Weizen.  Fritz Maytag
has called Anchor Wheat his "lawnmower beer", it's the lightest beer
in the Anchor line.  There's a local (I'm in San Diego) brewpub that
also makes it's lighest beer with a proportion of wheat.  And Byron
Burch, brewer/author, mentioned somewhere (I think it was the Yeast
issue of Zymurgy) that one of the Wyeast strains was well suited
to "California style wheat beer".  It seems to be a lighter (color,
body, alcohol), more balanced/less hoppy version of Pale Ale.

Speaking of "lawnmower beer", did Fritz invent this term, or did
he take it and apply it to his wheat beer?  The Anchor brewery tour
was the first place I'd heard it.

Brian
- --
Brian Smithey
smithey at esosun.css.gov  -  uunet!seismo!esosun!smithey

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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 91 07:28:07 PDT
From: smithey at esosun.css.gov (Brian Smithey)
Subject: Dave Line's ingredients available

If anybody is trying to find Dave Line's native British ingredients,
Great Fermentations of Santa Rosa now has some of them.

Tate & Lyle Demerara Cube Sugar, 1.1# box, $5.25
Lyle's Golden Syrup, 1# can, $4.95
Lyle's Black Treacle, 1# can, $4.95

Shipping weight is 1 lb 8 oz for those of you who already have a
catalog with shipping charges.

Free catalogs for GFSR are available by writing to:
Great Fermentations of Santa Rosa
PO Box 428
Fulton, CA  95439

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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 91 10:31:00 EDT
From: CARONS at TBOSCH.dnet.ge.com


hi, yall

This is my fist submission to HBD (I only started receiving it yesterday)
and already I can see I have a lot to learn ...

In response to Dave Rose's question ...
DR>First: Many of my beers have a subtle but noticable off taste which I would 
DR>describe as "plastic-y." This plastic taste is not evident when tasting the
DR>beer but rather (if you'll excuse me) when burping after drinking it.  Some-

I have noticed this same symptom in a few of my brews -but generally only in 
darker, more full bodied projects. Any help out there?

Secondly, I was recently in Bennington, Vermont, and tried a local brew
called LONG TRAIL ALE. It had a delightful (I thought) flavor which kind of
reminded me of tea. Are there other brews out there with a similar flavor?
Also, how can I achieve this at home?

Thanks!
  Sean J. Caron			"Bad news, Sammy. There are terrorists in
  GE Consulting Services	 my stomach and they're demanding beer!"
  carons at tbosch.dnet.ge.com                                   - N. P.

PS. many thanks to Alan Risher from my wife for the tip about bottling on the
    dishwasher door! (Probably added years to my marriage ...)

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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 91 10:46:32 EDT
From: srussell at snoopy.msc.cornell.edu (Stephen Russell)
Subject: priming bucket, DME vs corn sugar

Greetings, mad scientists....

In HBD #723, Rich Lenihan asks:

>A couple questions on priming:

>1.  [text omitted]  My question:  Is there a compelling reason why I
>*should* use a bottling bucket? 

Two reasons I can think of:  one, to insure proper mixing of the priming solu-
tion and the wort (I put the priming solution in the bucket first, then siphon
the wort in with it); two, to minimize the amount of sediment that gets 
carried into the bottles.  These are interrelated, for in order to mix well 
you might stir up the sediment.  Disadvantage: one more siphoning step that 
may introduce oxygen and microorganisms.

>2. [text omitted] is there a compelling reason (ie. from
>a taste or aesthetic standpoint) why I should switch to DME [for priming]?

Caveat:  I have not performed the A-B comparison experiment on this topic.

According to Miller in TCHoHB, you will find a distinct taste difference.
This is due to corn sugar being fully fermentable whereas malt extract is not.
(this is also why you have to use more DME...1 1/4 cups vs 3/4 cups, I believe
I read in Zymurgy last year)  Esters, diacetyl, etc., get produced from a
DME fermentation, not from one with corn sugar.  These levels will be higher 
in your beer as a result.  Miller therefore recommends against extract priming
for lagers and gives cautious approval for ales, in which esters and diacetyl
are an acceptable part of the flavor/aroma profile.

Na zdrojie,

STEVE

- -- 
Stephen Russell
Graduate Student, Department of Materials Science and Engineering
Cornell University, Ithaca, NY  14853

Internet:  srussell at snoopy.msc.cornell.edu    work:  607-255-4648
Bitnet:	   srussell at crnlmsc3.bitnet           home:  607-273-7306
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"He that would trade a little freedom for safety shall have neither."
				  	-- Benjamin Franklin
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Friday, 13 Sep 1991 10:55:45 EDT
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re: Bittering Units

>From: Darryl Okahata <darrylo at hpnmxx.sr.hp.com>

>  Kent Dinkel <dinkel at hpmtaa.lvld.hp.com> talks about a recipe of his:

>> 13.2 bittering units (bu) worth of hops (bu = alpa content * ounces)
>>      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>I'd like to point out that there are more than one "bittering
>unit" definition/"standard".  The one that is mentioned here is
>really "AAU"s (Alpha-Acid Units).  I don't know how widespread

Actually, Darryl, I humbly suggest that Kent is using the
infamous "Homebrew Bittering Units".  Charlie P. now gives an
explanation after his usual recipe in _zymurgy_ each issue.

John "The relative usefulness of same is debatable, as usual" DeCarlo

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
           (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Friday, 13 Sep 1991 10:57:31 EDT
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re: Priming Questions

>From: rich at progress.COM (Rich Lenihan)

>  1.  I've been brewing for a few years now, and I've never used
>  a bottling bucket when priming.  I pour the boiled corn sugar

>  My question:  Is there a compelling reason why I
>  *should* use a bottling bucket?  My method was born out of
>  ignorance.

Personally, I have found that using the bottling bucket approach
gives me bottled beer with no sediment (except some small amount
of dead yeast, presumably).  No longer do I pour carefully to
avoid sediment getting into the glass.  I don't see any
carbonation differences, either.

> 2.  DME vs. corn sugar for priming.  The one time (see above)
> I used DME for priming, my beer was under-carbonated.  There

I use either 3/4 cup corn sugar or over a cup of DME for the same
level of carbonation.  No, I haven't really noticed the
difference, but it makes me feel better as a beer purist :-)

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
           (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1991 11:28:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Gene BeHanna <cb2s+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Fear and Loathing in the Great PPM vs. mG/L Debate...

     One mole of water weighs about 18 grams and has 6.02252E+23 molecules.
One liter of water weighs exactly 1000 grams at 4 degrees centigrade.  That
gives 1000/18.0 = 55.6 moles of water in one liter of water.  55.6 times
Avogadro's number is 3.35E+25 molecules in one liter of water.  So, if you
have a ppm figure, you then need to change it to a parts per liter figure,
which is done like so:

     ppm/1000000 * 3.35E+25/Liter = ppL (parts per Liter).


     Now, change ppL to milligrams by finding the molar weight of the ion,
the number of moles of the ion, and multiplying:

     n = ppL/6.02252E+23 = number of moles.

     n*molar weight = g/L.  Now multiply by 1000 and you'll have mg/L.

Hope this helps,
Chris BeHanna
cb2s at andrew.cmu.edu

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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1991 08:19:56 -0800
From: krweiss at ucdavis.edu
Subject: priming without a priming bucket

Rich Lenihan writes:

>1.  I've been brewing for a few years now, and I've never used
>   a bottling bucket when priming.  I pour the boiled corn sugar
>   syrup directly into the carboy, cap, slosh it around a bit, wait
>   20-30 minutes, then siphon directly from the carboy.  I get

I, too, used this priming method for years, out of simple ignorance of any
alternative for a while, and then out of a belief that it minimized risk of
infection. I now use the priming bucket (actually I use a priming carboy)
method. The main advantages are that I get *much* less sediment in the
bottles using this technique, and the beer seems to clear faster and more
completely.

Ken Weiss               krweiss at ucdavis.edu
Computing Services      916/752-5554
U.C. Davis
Davis, CA 95616


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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 91 08:38:57 PDT
From: Donald Oconnor <oconnor at chemistry.UCSC.EDU>
Subject: DME vs corn sugar; bottling bucket

In HBD 723 Rich Lenihan wonders about using DME as a substitute for corn 
sugar in priming.  Only about 2/3 of the sugars contained in DME are
fermentable while corn sugar (glucose) is completely fermentable.  Thus,
you should use about 50% more DME than corn sugar to get the same level
of carbonation.  It's unlikely that one could detect the taste difference
resulting from priming with one or the other in most full-bodied beers.  A
cup of corn sugar is only about 1/3 lb.

Rich also wonders why people use bottling buckets.  Good question since
transferring the beer to another container before bottling has many 
disadvantages such as (1) adding oxygen to the beer (2) exposure to 
additional surfaces which increases the risk of contamination (3) increased
time in bottling.  Its very easy to use a carboy headpack to start the
siphon directly from the carboy and avoid these worries.
	Don
	oconnor at chemistry.ucsc.edu

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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 91 8:43:02 PDT
From: ncpmont at brahms.AMD.COM (Mark Montgomery)
Subject: Glassware and such

In HBD #723, Chris Shenton asks for lab glassware sources:

Chris,
	I couldn't tell from your e-mail address whether you
were linked through the local NASA (Mt.View,CA) or not but in
case you are and for others in the area there are several local,
retail, walk-in places to get lab supplies:
- -->	The Science Shop - has two locations, in Vallco Mall in
Cupertino (mainly a kids chemistry set place but has basic glass)
and their main shop and warehouse on Archer St. just off 4th in
San Jose.
- -->	Consumer Scientific - El Camino Real in Mt. View, between
Castro and El Monte.

	Both places have flasks, Petri dishes, culture tubes,
agar and everything else you'd need for yeast manipulation.
 .....................................................................
Mark Montgomery  Advanced Micro Devices, S'vale, CA.(ncpmont at amd.com)
 -Testing IC's here in CA but I'd rather be growing hops in WA-


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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1991 11:56 EDT
From: Frank Tutzauer <COMFRANK at UBVMS.BITNET>
Subject: A sweet ending

     Several weeks ago, in this august forum, I asked for help with my
problems of too-sweet beer.  The answer most people suggested, you'll recall,
was:  more hops.  The stout I brewed subsequent to receiving this advice is
now done, and I can report back, like I promised.  In addition to the hops in
the hopped extract, I used 1 oz. of Bullions (alpha = 9) at the beginning of
the boil, a half ounce of Northern Brewers halfway through the boil (alpha =
?) and a half ounce of Cascades to finish.  Therein followed a short
fermentation in the mid to high 70's.  When I opened the first bottle, it
wasn't at all sweet.  It was, in fact, bitter (yaayy!), with a nice creamy
head that lasts nearly to the end of the glass.  The beer has less body than I
expected, and the roasted barley flavor comes through stronger than I
expected.  In addition to the hops, I suspect that the roasted barley may be
covering up some of the sweetness.  The beer won't win any awards, but when I
finished the first glass, I said to myself, "Hmm, I think I'll have another." 
So, I'm on the right track.

     Again, thanks.

- --frank

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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 91 10:22:26 +0800
From: Loren Carter <lcarter at claven.idbsu.edu>
Subject: corn sugar

In reference to Ken Weiss' comment about "corn sugar",  several 
years ago I ran into the same problem.  I had purchased some 
dextrose that was used for making candy. It turned out to have 
only 15% fementables in it.

You might ask your homebrew shop to sell you larger 
amounts(they will usually discount for larger amounts).

Loren Carter 

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Date: Fri Sep 13 09:16:38 1991
From: larryba at microsoft.com
Subject: HBD #733 & Dave Rose

Dave Rose has several questions.  Here are some of my Opinions:

Klages: Universal malt.  Can mashed any old way.  Low husk content, low
husk tannins, high diastatic power, good yields, dirt cheap.  Klages are
"fully Modified" meaning protein rest is optional.  I made a stout with
7lb of klages, 1lb flaked barley, 1lb roast barley - single infusion mash
and it cleared out fine after a couple of months.  I did a step mash of the
same recipie and it also cleared just fine.

Haze: if you have haze even when the beer is warm it could be one of the
following: starch (incomplete conversion), Yeast: non-flocculent or Infection.
My beers (ales) never cleared until I started adding gelatine when racking to
the keg (1/2 tsp dissolved in 1 cup boiling water).  Of course they never
were allowed to age very long either %-}

Head: commercial beers sometimes use head helpers.  You can use a little
wheat or barley flakes to get a similar effect.  If you keep it down to 4oz/
5gal batch you probably won't see any protein haze even if you only do a
single infusion mash.  Head retention also seems to be a function of
conditioning - maybe you are just drinking too fast?

Plastic taste: My wife claims/complains that all my beers have a unique
aroma in the burps.  As best I can tell it is due to the late addition of
hops in the kettle, typically 1 oz of something aromatic for the last minute
before chilling.  My stouts, which have no late additions, don't have that
effect.  Perhaps this is what you are noticing?


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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 91 9:42:56 PDT
From: winter at cirrus.com (Keith Winter)
Subject: A chuckle in the morning

It is not very often (if ever) that I get a good chuckle from my morning e-mail, 
especially so from the HB digest.  However, this morning as I was reading along 
in the digest, I came upon:

>From: kla!kirkish at Sun.COM (Steve Kirkish)

>Maybe it's that I'm still just a novice, dry-yeast user, and not up on these
>colorful terms used for liquid yeast, but pray tell, how do you "flame" a
>yeast package?  Do you insult it openly, in public ;-)?  Actually it's a
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>real question...I'd like to understand the terminology.

and nearly fell out of my chair.  People came to my cubicle to see what was
so funny and, of course, didn't understand at all :-).  I guess it just caught 
me right.  I had read the post the day before but my mind wasn't running in 
the same vein as Steve's (being too serious, no doubt).

Anyway, thanks Steve for starting my Friday off right!

****************************************************************************

Keith Winter, Cirrus Logic Inc., Milpitas, CA  (winter at cirrus.com)

****************************************************************************


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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1991 12:53 EDT
From: Dave Rose <CHOLM at HUBIO2.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Extract yields...

I am curious about how high extract yields are among the all-grain brewers out
there.  The oft-quoted number from Miller is 33.  I have rarely gotten above 
30, and though I am working on solving this, I wonder whether others are 
doing better on a regular basis.  If you want a real eye-opener, go through
some of the Zymurgy special issues and look at the award-winning recipes. 
I don't have an issue with me, but when I figured out the yields for all the
recipes (excluding those that add adjuncts which make the calculation more
complicated) I didn't find anyone getting over 30.  The average was something 
like 25 and some were as low as 17!  There seemed to be an inverse relationship
between the yield and the amount of grains being used, i.e. the worst yields
were in barley wines and the like where lots of grains were being handled. This
makes me suspect that a lot of the loss comes in sparging, since it is hard for
me to understand why starch conversion efficiency would be dependent upon the
size of the mash.  In open defiance of all the laws of homebrewing, I am 
*worrying* about improving my extract, and I'm interested in hearing the 
experiences of others.  Thanks.   d.

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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 91 10:15:21 -0700
From: Stephen E. Hansen <hansen at gloworm.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: wort chilling 

In HBD 723 Mike McNally writes,

>Chad Epifanio, in HBD722, says that using colder-than-from-the-tap water
>with an immersion chiller is "a pain or impossible".  Here's a 
>suggestion: throw a little money at the problem and buy a pump.  Mine
>cost about $70 at a local hardware store; you could probably do better.
>I use my lauter tun (which has a garden-hose spigot) as a reservoir
>of chilled water, and simply pump it through the chiller.  In less than
>an hour, atmospheric moisture begins to condense on the outside of my
>boiler.  I also save water, which in northern California is considered
>a good thing.

Now I've had a pump such as this sitting near the top my wish list for 
a while now and have gone so far as to start pricing the things.  The
first question that comes up however is the flow rate required.  My
guess is that something around 2 to 4 gallons per minutes would do the
trick but I would like to hear from those of you with some experience
in these things.

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Stephen E. Hansen - hansen at sierra.Stanford.EDU  | "The church is near,
 Electrical Engineering Computer Facility        |  but the road is icy.
 Applied Electronics Laboratory, Room 204        |  The bar is far away,
 Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305-4055    |  but I will walk carefully."
 Phone: +1-415-723-1058   Fax: +1-415-725-7298   |      -- Russian Proverb
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 91 10:04:00 PDT
From: jerry at jaizer.hf.intel.com (Jerry Gaiser)
Subject: Raspberry Stout


Hi All,

Well, my second batch has been in the bottle about a week. It's the
Raspberry Stout from "The Winners Circle".

I opened a bottle last night to see how it's getting along and was
immediately disappointed. Very undercarbonated. In my first batch I had
used 3/4 cup of corn sugar and ended up with overcarbonation and so I
back off to 1/2 cup. Am I going to see any more carbonation over time?

Also, though the smell is wonderful and has the mouth feel of a good
stout, there is a very harsh aftertaste. I'm hoping that it will smooth
out as it ages, but wondered if anybody has any comments.
- -- 
  Jerry Gaiser (N7PWF)              | Relax. Don't worry. Have a homebrew
  jerry at jaizer.intel.com            | Nobody loves a wet dog -- Baxter Black
  74176.1024 at compuserve.com         |---------------------------------------
  PBBSnet: n7pwf at n7pwf.#pdx.or.usa.na  or  n7pwf at n7pwf.ampr.org [44.116.0.68]

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Date:     Fri, 13 Sep 91 13:41:31 EDT
From: Jeanne Sova (ASQNC-TABSM 5320) <jsova at APG-EMH5.APG.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:  Re:  Homebrew Digest #723 (September 13, 1991)

well gang, the concensus seems to be that i jumped in to the far extreme of
the beer scale.  perchance i should have started off with a beer a tad
milder than bigfoot.  i was a little worried that all these real beers 
would be that strong.  mom tried to tell me it was a special occasion beer 
that should be shared, but i thought the redskins beating the cowboys on 
monday night football was occassion enough and that she was just trying to 
horn in on my beer.   luckily when i couldn't finish it she was there to
save it from the sink.  so now i'm looking forward to trying more beer, of
a milder nature.  just about everyone suggested SN pale ale, so that shall
be my next monday night football half time experiment.  and it just so
happens that i am lucky enough to have a few in the house, along with SN
porter, stout, and pale bock (which will follow soon after the pale ale), if
i can get them away from my brothers.  i don't know how much they go for
out here in maryland.  i've only seen the SN pale ale around here and 
that was about $7 for a 6 pack, plus i get a discount cause my brother works
at the liquor store.  we got the rest when me sister came out to visit.  she
lives within walking distance of SN brewing, and the family makes her bring
beer whenever she comes to visit.  she brought some summerfest last time, 
but that disappeared before i even saw the bottle.  it figures that with all
those choices on the shelf, i would pick the most potent.  i just couldn't
resist that cute little lable with the big foot on it.  i'm looking forward
to experimenting.  thanks everyone for the input and advice!


jeanne 
Beer is Good Food

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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 91 14:38:20 CDT
From: quinnt at turing.med.ge.com (Tom Quinn 5-4291)
Subject: Re: The Famed Chico Yeast

In HBD 723 Martin answered Kevin's question:

  >In HBD 722, Kevin asked:
  >
  >>Is Wyeast #1056 "American" the same as the "Chico Ale Yeast" that I've
  >>heard everyone talking about?
  >
  >Yes.
  >
  >>Is the "Chico Ale Yeast" really the same stuff that Sierra Nevada
  >>uses?
  >
  >Reputedly.  I haven't done any rigorous A:B comparison tests, but my
  >impression from using both 1056 and yeast cultured from a SNPA
  >bottle is that the cultures behave differently, but produce very
  >similar results.  My bottle-cultures seem to give a more
  >vigorous-appearing fermentation.

All the recent discussion of preparing yeast cultures leads me to ask
how one would culture the yeast from a SNPA bottle.  I've never seen
a bottle of this beer - does it have a layer of sediment at the bottom
from which to start?  Or is there a method of culturing the yeast from
a filtered beer?  There are some locally-produced microbrews I'd love
to try to culture from...

Waiting patiently for my Zymurgy yeast issue to arrive,

Tom

===========================================================================
 Tom Quinn		  ||
 Consultant at		  || uucp: {uunet!crdgw1|sun!sunbrew}!gemed!quinnt
 G.E. Medical Systems	  || internet: quinnt at gemed.ge.com
 Milwaukee, WI 53201-414  ||
===========================================================================

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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 91 15:03:10 -0500
From: dbreiden at mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Subject: High temp fermentation

Hey all,

I've heard this and that about various schemes to keep a fermenter cool,
but what I'd be really charged about is a strain of yeast that allows
high temperature fermentation without too much in the way of bizarre flavors.

So, does anyone know of a yeast strain that can stand fermenting at an
average ambient temp of 80 deg (F)?  By stand it, I mean will ferment at
that temperature without producing an inordinate amount of esters or
phenols or whatever get produced at high temps.  If anyone does know of
such a critter, I'd also appreciate it if I could find out where to get it.
All I can get at my local shop is red star and Whitbread.

Thanks and good day, all.

Danny

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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 91 15:20:00 -0500
From: dbreiden at mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Subject: Shelf life of cultures

Hey all,

Let's say I go out tonight and buy some Sierra Nevada Pale Ale.  Let's
say I drink two while I cook up a quart of wort.  Now suppose I do the
voo-doo necessary to culture the yeast out of the SNPA bottles, and in
two days I've got my yeasties munching away at the wort.

What if I don't want to brew for say, 3 weeks?  Is it possible to keep my
solution around for that long and gently awaken it a day or 3 before I
brew?  Or should I just wait and culture the yeast later?  

Whatever the case, that Pale Ale is starting to sound pretty good ...

Danny

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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 91 12:13 CDT
From: ihlpl!korz at att.att.com
Subject: Re: Priming questions

Rich writes:
>   1.  I've been brewing for a few years now, and I've never used
>   a bottling bucket when priming.  I pour the boiled corn sugar
>   syrup directly into the carboy, cap, slosh it around a bit, wait
>   20-30 minutes, then siphon directly from the carboy.  I get
>   pretty good carbonation with this method (sometimes too much).
>   The only time my beer was under-carbonated was the one time I
>   substituted DME extract for corn sugar (in equal amounts).  I'm
>   not sure if this was due to my method or due to insufficient DME
>   (maybe both).  My question:  Is there a compelling reason why I
>   *should* use a bottling bucket?  My method was born out of ignorance.
>   Until recently, I was unaware that anyone bottled this way.

There are two reasons for NOT priming the way that you do: 1) the
possibility of uneven carbonation (more priming sugar in some bottles,
less in others) and 2) stirring up trub.  When you rack the beer
off the trub into the priming bucket, it is easier to stir the
priming sugar into the beer since you don't have to worry about
stirring up the trub.
   
>   2.  DME vs. corn sugar for priming.  The one time (see above)
>   I used DME for priming, my beer was under-carbonated.  There was
>   some carbonation, but not much (much finer bubbles, too).  This 
>   may have been due to not enough DME (4oz, my usual amount for corn
>   sugar), but I decided using DME wasn't worth the effort.  I'm not
>   a beer purist, so again, is there a compelling reason (ie. from
>   a taste or aesthetic standpoint) why I should switch to DME?

Dextrose (corn sugar) is 100% fermentable.  DME is not.  On the average,
you should use about 20% more DME (*BY WEIGHT*) than dextrose to get
the same amount of fermenable sugar.  I use DME, not really because
I feel that the small amount of dextrose used for priming would cause
a detectable change in the flavor, but rather because I simply feel
better using all malt.

Al.
korz at ihlpl.att.com

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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 91 13:25 CDT
From: ihlpl!korz at att.att.com
Subject: Re: bottles

James writes:
>I (re)use a variety of bottles.  Henry Weinhard Ale (green bottles; 
>screw tops) have been the only bottles I've had problems with in the
 ^^^^^^^^^^
>past, but tonight it was a Negra Modelo bottle.

Aha!  Therein lies the problem.  Screwtop bottles are capped with a
different kind of capper (actually, I don't know of one, other than
a bottling maching, that will do it).  The Negra Modelo come in an
attractive bottle, but one that's made of very thin glass.

>Does anyone know how many times commercial breweries reuse their
>bottles?

The twist-offs are not reused -- in civilized communities, they are
recycled.  Most types of bottles are not reused.  The only type from the
US that I *know* are reused are the thick, brown longnecks sold in bars.
You know, the kind you can drop from waist-high onto a wooden floor and
they won't break?  Before I switched to kegging, I only used those.
Since starting to keg, I've been collecting only four *special* types of
bottles: Chimay 750ml, Westmalle Trappist Ale (cool looking, very thick glass),
Weizen 500ml, and St. Sebastiaan (sp?) (750ml (?), ceramic bottles, really
cool looking, perfect for those beers with a really nasty chill-haze ;^).
Al.

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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 91 16:55:12 EDT
From: hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Chicha 


This is the one where the enzyme action is from saliva right??
It's probably pretty similar to smokeless tobacco. 
Chew & spit :-)...  (sorry couldn't resist).

 - JaH


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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 91 16:57:27 EDT
From: hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Russ Pencin


Sorry to take up your band with, but I'm trying to get in touch with
Russ Pencin from whom I got a yeast culture some months back.
I had a few culture specific questions for him.

Russ you still out there?? Anyone else know where I can get in touch with
him. Thanks and sorry for occupying you bandwidth (flames to /dev/null please)

 - JaH


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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 91 16:16:50 CDT
From: andy at wups.wustl.edu (Andy Leith)
Subject: More yeast

Kent Dinkel asks about introducing more yeast into the carboy if the SG is too high.

Apart from there being too little oxygen in the wort, another possible cause of a stuck ferment is having the yeast flocculate out too early. Rather than pitching more yeast it is not a bad idea to first rack the wort plus a little of the sediment in the bottom into another carboy, to see if the fermentation starts up again.  This has the effect of rousing some of the yeast back into suspension, and is a sort of homebrew equivelant of the Yorkshire square system used by Samuel Smith who use a very flocculating yeast.

Also Conn Copas feels that if a beer comes in a bottle it can't be called a bitter.

While this may be technically true, it is possible to rack bitter from a keg into a bottle, this is the method I used to win the English and Scottish bitter class at this years AHA National competition, and I was satisfied that the resulting bottled beer was almost indistinguishable from the real thing. I was trying to produce a reasonable facsimile of Brakespears Bitter, which is my drink of choice when I visit home.

Andy Leith

andy at wups.wustl.edu

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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 91 11:09:26 EDT
From: eisen at kopf.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Carl West)
Subject: crossover 


I've been wondering for a while, just how many of the people 
subscribed to this estimable digest also participate in the 
activities of the Society for Creative Anachronism. I'd greatly 
appreciate it if all the SCAdians on the digest (and this means 
all you lurkers too) would send me a short e-mail note with the 
subject `crossover'. 

Please don't clutter up the digest, just mail me:
eisen at ileaf.com or leafusa!kopf!eisen at EDDIE.MIT.EDU

Carl West aka Meister Frydherik Eysenkopf, OL, etc.

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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 91 18:54:07 EDT
From: eisen at kopf.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Carl West)
Subject: Sierra Nevada Porter 

It's not bad stuff. Does any one know if it's the same yeast 
as their Pale Ale? If not, how's it different? 

My real question is: 

Should I bother trying to culture their Porter yeast 
even though I have a successful culture from their Pale Ale?

Carl


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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 91 15:06:18 PDT
From: Martin A. Lodahl <hpfcmr.fc.hp.com!hplabs!pbmoss!malodah>
Subject: Labware Source

In HOMEBREW Digest #723, Chris Shenton asked:

>Looking for stuff like small (100ml) and large (1l) flasks. Any ideas? 
>I've got an Edmunds catalog...

 ... which won't do you just a whole lot of good.  I finally broke
down and spent the $16 on a catalog from Carolina Biological Supply,
following Pete Soper's pointer.  If you're a business or a full-time
teacher (or damn lucky) you can get one for free.  I got mine by
calling their west-of-the-Mississippi number (800.547.1733) and
charging it to my credit card.  The equivalent number for Right
Coasters is 800.334.5551.  Their prices are good (Chris, there's
really no such thing as "cheap" lab glassware, I fear), as is their
service, their selection is outstanding, and if there's a minimum
order, it must be pretty small.  Unlike certain other suppliers of
similar gear, they don't make you order a gross of 1L Erlenmeyer
flasks.  The catalog's over 2" thick, and makes very entertaining
reading, if you like that sort of thing (I do).

= Martin A. Lodahl   			Pacific*Bell Systems Analyst =
= malodah at pbmoss.Pacbell.COM       Sacramento, CA       916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids, runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me!  8-)   =


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 13 Sep 91 15:33:00 PDT
From: Martin A. Lodahl <hpfcmr.fc.hp.com!hplabs!pbmoss!malodah>
Subject: Priming

In HOMEBREW Digest #723, Rich Lenihan asked:

>	... My question:  Is there a compelling reason why I
>   *should* use a bottling bucket?

If you rack to a fresh, sanitized container, you leave behind all
the trash on the bottom of the fermentor.  None of that will end up
in bottle or keg, no matter how vigorously you mix in the priming
solution.  That's the advantage.
   
>   2.  DME vs. corn sugar for priming.  The one time (see above)
>   I used DME for priming, my beer was under-carbonated.  There was
>   some carbonation, but not much (much finer bubbles, too).  This 
>   may have been due to not enough DME (4oz, my usual amount for corn
>   sugar), but I decided using DME wasn't worth the effort.  I'm not
>   a beer purist, so again, is there a compelling reason (ie. from
>   a taste or aesthetic standpoint) why I should switch to DME?

You don't need to be a "purist" to add to your technique.  DME is
not necessarily better than corn sugar for priming purposes, but it
definitely is different, and if you have control of both, you can
apply whichever gives the effect you want, in a given batch.  Yes,
it takes more DME than it does corn sugar to achieve a given
carbonation level.  If I were making a pale ale, for example, I
might use 1/2 cup corn sugar, or I might use 2/3 to 3/4 cup DME. 
The difference would be "beadier" bubbles and better head retention
in the DME batch, but also more "fruitiness", a wider array of
esters, which you may not always want.  In this year's batches,
I've made about 3 DME-primed batches for every corn sugar-primed
one, but that's primarily a reflection on the styles I've been
brewing in.  And remember, a DME-primed batch needs more time to
condition! 

= Martin A. Lodahl   			Pacific*Bell Systems Analyst =
= malodah at pbmoss.Pacbell.COM       Sacramento, CA       916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids, runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me!  8-)   =


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 13 Sep 91 15:46:42 PDT
From: Martin A. Lodahl <hpfcmr.fc.hp.com!hplabs!pbmoss!malodah>
Subject: Tubing Diameters

In HOMEBREW Digest #723, Thomas Manteufel asked:

>			...  In theory, the
>1/4" tubing has more surface area per volume, hence better cooling
>efficiency ...
> ... A disadvantage I see is that due to the smaller size, I will be able
>to run only half the amount of water through it over time, so cooling time
>will/may not be as rapid as with 3/8" tubing.  Has anyone done even an
>emphirical test of tubing diameters?  Should I go ahead with the 1/4"
>tubing, or is there something wrong with my assumptions?

My first immersion chiller used 100' of 1/4" tubing, and in many
ways it worked very well indeed, but I must agree with your
reasoning about throughput.  At any reasonable pressure (defined as
a pressure where I wasn't plagued with leaks) the water would just
drool out of the output hose, piping hot.  I always had the feeling
that it transferred all the heat it was going to in the first few
feet of the coil.  I never tested this, but it always appeared that
the rate of temperature change of the wort was very slow at first,
gathering speed later.  Last winter, I foolishly stored it with some
cooling water still in it, and an exceptionally hard freeze
destroyed it.  The replacement was made with 3/8" tubing, which seem
to chill more quickly, especially after I connect the icewater
recirculation pump (I always needed a wastegate system with the
other chiller, to keep the pressure within range).  Interestingly,
the water coming out the other end isn't nearly as hot.

= Martin A. Lodahl   			Pacific*Bell Systems Analyst =
= malodah at pbmoss.Pacbell.COM       Sacramento, CA       916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids, runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me!  8-)   =


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 13 Sep 91 15:57:15 PDT
From: Martin A. Lodahl <hpfcmr.fc.hp.com!hplabs!pbmoss!malodah>
Subject: Flaming Yeast!  (Levuer Flambe')

In HOMEBREW Digest #723, Steve Kirkish asked:

>Now, then.  John DeCarlo mentions in HBD #722...
>
>>Then I flame the outside of the yeast package, cut open, flame
>>again, and pour into the starter wort.  
>
>Maybe it's that I'm still just a novice, dry-yeast user, and not up on these
>colorful terms used for liquid yeast, but pray tell, how do you "flame" a
>yeast package?  Do you insult it openly, in public ;-)?

Personally, I've never found flaming (in the Usenet sense) to be at
all effective in discouraging pests, no matter where in the food
chain they may be.  What John was talking about was straight from the
realm of microbio lab technique.  If you have a Bunsen burner (or
equivalent), pass the item gently and fairly quickly through the
flame.  You want to singe the beasties on the outside, not bake the
ones on the inside.  You can achieve the same effect by wiping it
down with alcohol, then flaming it with a cigarette lighter.  Try
not to flame your fingers in the process ... it hurts!  (Voice of
Experience) 

= Martin A. Lodahl   			Pacific*Bell Systems Analyst =
= malodah at pbmoss.Pacbell.COM       Sacramento, CA       916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids, runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me!  8-)   =


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Date: Sat Sep 14 01:48:48 1991
From: synchro!chuck at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Competition listings in Zymurgy


In addition to the production issues that Mike Fertsch mentions,
I have heard from reliable sources that Zymurgy is refusing to
list HWBTA sanctioned competitions.  The only reason the Dixie
Cup is listed is because they bought an ad in Zymurgy.

 - Chuck


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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1991 10:24 EDT
From: BAUGHMANKR at CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU
Subject: Blow-off, hoses, pot-scrubbers


Greetings All:

I feel like a stranger in these parts, it's been so long since I 
posted.  School has begun in these Appalachian mountains and my 
students have me grading papers, studying and reading instead of 
brewing and playing on the computer.

Here come a few comments:

Randy, who may no longer be on the net pointed out:

>I learned a lesson in my present batch.  Watch out that leftover hops (from
>pellets) does not plug your blowoff hose!  Kinda makes a mess on the floor,
>the walls, and the ceiling......

I suspect Randy's been reading The Complete Joy of Homebrewing, a good 
book except that Charlie thinks you can blow off through siphon hose.  
You may get away with it for a while but sooner or later you get 
burned.  So for all you new brewers,  tear out that page in Charlie's 
book and buy 1" ID hose from the plumbing store and jam it down into 
the neck of the carboy and blow-off through it.  You'll NEVER pop a 
cork with one of those monster hoses.  Blow-off is a great technique.  
Don't give up on it because you've been using the wrong equipment.

Elsewhere:

>The problem with the vinyl tubing was, when it got hot, it got really soft,
>and when it got really soft it fell over and kinked, and when that happened,
>it blew right off the copper tubing which then shot hot water all over the ceil
>Now the vinyl is twist-tied to the input hose so it won't kink.

Use washing machine hose if you can.  It takes hot water without 
getting soft.

And from a couple of weeks ago:

>I usually fill the carboy with hot
>water and bleach and let it soak overnight if there's serious scum in it.

>Chris Shenton 

A minor point, which you probably know but some of the newer brewers 
may not.  The hot water and bleach solution IS good for loosening the 
scum.  But hot water breaks down clorox and shouldn't be used to 
sterilize a full carboy since the heat of the water and the clorox 
would work against each other.  B-Brite, by the way, is good for 
loosening that gunk.

And here's one I'm responsible for since I'm the one who advocated pot 
scrubbers on the end of the pick-up tubes in the first place.

>I've been plagued by a slight metallic taste in some of my brews, not all.
>It couldn't be sterilant. I overrinse, if that's possible.
>I think I've discovered the source.  The copper scrubbers that I use
>over the end of my siphon pickup.  They are NOT pure copper, just
>copper coated..a thin one at that.  I've been reusing them instead of
>using a new one each time.  For those that use them, use a new one
>each time.  It's not worth sacrificing 5 gals of homebrew to save 59 cents.
>Also, I boil my new ones in a vinegar/water solution to remove any tarnish
>and/or manufacturing oils/gunk.
>
>Darren E. Evans-Young
>The University of Alabama

Sorry Darren.  I've never noticed a metallic taste in my beers but I'm 
bothered by the fact that it might be possible.  SO, right beside the 
shelf in the grocery store where you found the Copper wound pot 
scrubbers, look for the STAINLESS STEEL pot scrubbers.  They should 
take care of the problem without having to buy a new one each time.

Good to see you derelicts again.  (You, too, Darryl.)  And a pat on the 
back to Rob for providing the HBD for us all.  

And now, back to the books.

Kinney Baughman                     |    Beer is my business and
baughmankr at conrad.appstate.edu      |    I'm late for work


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Date: Sat, 14 Sep 91 20:34:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: Brian Capouch <brianc at zeta.saintjoe.EDU>
Subject: Two Requests

This first one I'm somewhat ashamed of, but until we get a good,
updateable, on-line database of the ever-changing world of micro- and
pub breweries, we're going to see this sort of thing. 

My erstwhile brewing partner is headed on a several-day trip to
Scottsdale, Arizona, and wonders if there are more interesting ways to
spend his beer time than bar-hopping sports bars and swilling Bud Light.
 Anyone out there know?

Secondly, I'm about to embark upon a project that involves scaling up my
production by several orders of magnitude.  I need to find a source of
bulk 5-gal pin-lock soda kegs.  I can do the reconditioning; that they
be cheap is the item of highest priority.  

I appreciate any pointers anyone out there can give me. 

One comment on a recent thread: (inviting flames, I might add)
I don't know how anyone can call him/herself a brewer and be without a
hydrometer.  I use mine constantly, and have found as a result how
pitifully slow extract reduction is in my beers compared to commercial
breweries.  I'm fixing that by now being so retentive about sanitation
that I neglect getting sufficient oxygen into my beers, and to try to
repitch yeast to the greatest degree practicable.

Brian Capouch
Saint Joseph's College for Children
brianc at saintjoe.edu

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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1991 06:37:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Peter Glen Berger <pb1p+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Easy question, and Thanks!


Well, my Stout it fermenting nicely, and I have an easy question for
all of you experienced homebrewers:  The specific gravity was 1.052 at
80 degrees fahrenheit.  The hydrometer gives accurate readings at *60*
degrees fahrenheit.  Is there a formula I can apply to determine the
actual specific gravity?


By the way, I'd like to thank all of the people who helped me,
including, in no particular order,  Robert Keil, John De Carlo,
Pat Waara, Sean Conway, Judy Bergwerk, Mike McNally, Stephen Russel,
Chad Epifanio, and anyone else who I have inadvertantly left out.
Thanks a lot ... you make participating in the list worthwhile!

I'll post the stout recipe I used after I taste it and decide if I
want to unleash it upon the world....

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pete Berger		       ||  ARPA:     peterb at cs.cmu.edu
Professional Student	       ||            Pete.Berger at andrew.cmu.edu
Univ. Pittsburgh School of Law ||  BITNET:   R746PB1P at CMCCVB
Attend this school, not CMU    ||  UUCP: ...!harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!pb1p
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Goldilocks is about property rights.  Little Red Riding Hood is a tale
 of seduction, rape, murder, and cannibalism."  -Bernard J. Hibbits
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 91 15:51:04 -0500
From: jmellby at iluvatar.dseg.ti.com
Subject: Wyeast

A friend asked me where the name WYeast originated from.  Apparently the
name originally had nothing to do with yeast.  Help?

Is anyone going to the Great American Beer Festival in Denver October 4-5.
I have heard both good and bad things about this event and would still like
more feedback.

Finally, after a lapse of 14 months I have started brewing again with a
hopefully-Christmas ale from one of the earlier recipes posted here.
Unfortunately it started out at 1072, after 2 days was 1040,
after 5 days was 1032, after 12 days 1028, and it has seemed to stay there.
This seems to be a high specific gravity to bottle at.  Any suggestions?

Thanks,

John R. Mellby                       Texas Instruments
jmellby at iluvatar.dseg.ti.com         P.O.Box 869305, MS 8513
jmellby at skvax1.ti.com                Plano, Texas, 75266
(214)517-5370                       (214)575-6774

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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 91 22:38:11 -0700
From: bgros at garnet.berkeley.edu


can you convert a full mash recipe to a partial mash recipe?
do you simply substitute x amount of pale malt extract for
x amount of pale grains?  is it 1 to 1 conversion?

also, when the recipe calls for special grains (crystal malt,
munich malt, chocolate etc), do you add these to the barley malt
and mash like anything else?  

and if you have a partial mash porter, please send it to me.  thanks.

                                      - Bryan


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #724, 09/16/91
*************************************
-------

---