---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  comparing festbier yeasts, NYC competition (Stephen Russell)
  Lab Glass & Culturing Supplies (Mike Sharp)
  wyeast (Jonathan A. Rodin)
  raspy rasberries (617)253-0885" <CASEY at DAQ1.PFC.MIT.EDU>
  re: Extract yields... (Darryl Richman)
  Re: Two Requests (Chris Shenton)
  Yeast and other issues (Dave Rose)
  Lawnmower brew (Dan Brown)
  Re: Homebrew Digest #723 (September 13, 1991) (HERREN)
  Plastic-y taste (Tom Nolan)
  RE>Homebrew Digest #723 (Se (Rad Equipment)
  Re: Homebrew Digest #724 (September 16, 1991) (HERREN)
  Using a hydrometer (Larry McCaig)
  Wyeast (Fritz Keinert)
  No cloves in Lawnmower Beer ("Roger Deschner")
  Brewing supplies in Cleveland (John Stepp)
  RE: Easy question, and Thanks! (Daniel L. Krus)
  Lagering (Steven M Cohn)
  Re:  Homebrew Digest #724 (September 16, 1991) (Thinking Machine)
  RE: Raspberry Stout (Devon Heron)
  Priming (dbreiden)
  Plastic tastes (Conn Copas)
  Cleveland homebrew supplies (Dennis Benjamin)
  Ironmaster Bitter ? (Ken Lloyd)
  Air Stat & Fridge holes (hersh)
  Wheat (Carl West)
  How efficient?? (C.R. Saikley)
  re:raspberry stout ("KATMAN.WNETS385")
  pub database (Marc Light)
  Reply to Jerry Gaiser in HBD 724 (Greg_Habel)
  Priming with DME (ingr!b11!mspe5!guy)
  The term "lawnmower beer" (Lynn Gold)
  Re: All Grain Extract Efficiency (larryba)
  Nitrosamines & also yeast (Jeff Frane)
  One more thing... (Bryan Gros)
  Fame (No Fortune) (Martin A. Lodahl)
  Extract Efficiency Musings (Martin A. Lodahl)
  Bottle Culturing (Martin A. Lodahl)
  Re: Homebrew Digest #722 (September 12, 1991) (Scott Knowles                       )
  Hydrometer Correction Table (IO10676)


Send submissions to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues!]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Sep 91 17:33:57 EDT
From: srussell at snoopy.msc.cornell.edu (Stephen Russell)
Subject: comparing festbier yeasts, NYC competition


WHICH FESTBIER YEAST TO USE....

'Tis the season for Festbiers, lager fans!  Get those palates warmed up and
ready to go!  I know you're supposed to brew them up in March, store them
in your nearby cave over the summer, and drink them now, but I have always
been a poor planner. :-)  But what yeast do you recommend for this style?    

Wyeast has two yeast strains appropriate for the styles Vienna/Maerzen/Oktober-
fest:  #2308 Munich Lager and #2206 Bavarian Lager.  I have used both with 
success but have *not* been systematic in my experimentation (too many #!%?$ at &
variables varied!!)  In the Zymurgy Yeast Special Issue, Vol. 12 No. 4 (1989),
Byron Burch says of these strains (p. 57):

2308: sensitive to fermentation conditions, prone to diacetyl flavor,
	complex, accents maltiness but brings out the hops more than 2206
2206: "less fussy", malty and complex, good for bocks but can be generally
	substituted for 2308

2206 was a relatively new strain at that time, and so Mr. Burch was unable to 
go into as much detail about it.  By the way, his article is *extremely* good
for comparing yeasts in general; I recommend it highly.

My experience suggests that 2308 is the more attenuative yeast, perhaps even
too much so for style -- BUT a different recipe would have produced vastly
different results, so please take that remark with a grain (or pound) of salt.

What I want to know is this:  how have your results compared from using these
two strains??  Attenuation, flocculation, flavor balance, temperature sensi-
tivity...whatever you've got would be most appreciated.


AND A CONTEST IN NEW YORK CITY....

I have information on the Nov. 2nd AHA- and HWBTA-sanctioned competition being
put on by the New York City Homebrewers Guild if anyone is interested.  It's 
an open competition -- all beer styles will be accepted (not meads).  E-mail 
to me directly to avoid cluttering up the net; I'll be prompt in replying.


Prosit,

STEVE

srussell at snoopy.msc.cornell.edu  (internet)
srussell at crnlmsc3		 (bitnet)

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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 91 6:27:53 EDT
From: Mike Sharp <msharp at cs.ulowell.edu>
Subject: Lab Glass & Culturing Supplies

> In HBD #723, Chris Shenton asks for lab glassware sources:

Chris (& anyone else looking for equipment)

I just put together 6 culturing kits.  Why? I went and offered to
do it for two people and thanks to minimum orders I wound up having
to get enough equipment for six.  Anyway, this is one stop shopping
since the kit includes glassware, agar (premeasured!), inoculation
loop/wire, and lots of other stuff.  If anyone is interested, send
some email to:
		msharp at cs.ulowell.edu
I've also go _lots_ of extra agar that I'll sell separately.

	--Mike Sharp

and now back to your regularly schduled program...

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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 91 08:47:53 -0400
From: rodin at ftp.com (Jonathan A. Rodin)
Subject: wyeast

Wyeast was a chief of a Pacific Northwest tribe.  Can't recall more about him.

Jon
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Rodin			rodin at ftp.com		26 Princess Street
(617) 246-0900 x261					Wakefield, MA  01880

I met a Puppy as I went walking;  We got talking, Puppy and I.
"Where are you going this fine nice day?"  (I said to the Puppy as he went by).
"Up in the hills to roll and play."  "I'll come with you, Puppy," said I.
	A. A. Milne


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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 91 09:24 EST
From: "Jeff Casey / (617)253-0885" <CASEY at DAQ1.PFC.MIT.EDU>
Subject: raspy rasberries

Jerry Gaiser asks for comments on the harsh aftertaste of rasberries...

 ...I tried a batch a year or two ago.  It wasn't a stout like Jerry's,
but a moderately heavy ale (starting gravity about 1.055, some crystal 
and roast barley, and moderate hops (probably Cascades) to about bu 15
in a full grain mash of pale malt).  I tossed in a couple pounds of
frozen rasberries with the finishing hops, so the heat would  sterilize
them  but not boil them.  It mucked and glopped in the primary for 
quite awhile (Chico yeast), then plopped in the secondary for several
weeks more (I'm usually not that patient, but there were many successive
phases of clearing and settling).  (The transfer from the primary to
the secondary was of legendary mess, and worthy of  not repeating the
experiment alone).
  The result was very weird.  It tasted like a fair (but not great) ale,
with rasberries on the side -- the two tastes were distinct, and didn't
blend well.   The smell was heavenly, and the initial taste was even
quite good, but the aftertaste was  indeed harsh and acidic.  Time
(months) mellowed it a little, but not a lot.  I'll admit that many of
my non-beer-appreciating friends thought it was great stuff, but that
did little to help.
   In retrospect, I don't think I should have expected more.  The taste
of rasberries is smooth to the nose, and sharp to the tongue -- it makes
a great vinegarette salad dressing.  I would love to try it again if 
somebody knows a recipe that offsets this properly, but I'm not
anxious to repeat the experiment...
 ...ask me about sour cherries, though...

                       - jeff casey    casey at alcvax.pfc.mit.edu

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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 91 06:44:16 -0700
From: darryl at ism.isc.com (Darryl Richman)
Subject: re: Extract yields...

Dave Rose expresses his concern about extract yields, where he mentions
that he is getting about 30 specific gravity points * lb. / gal.

Dave, I experience just about the same yields.  The highest I've had
in my equipment, which is a picnic cooler/copper manifold lauter tun,
is about 32.5, but I've had as little as 27.  My average is about
30.5.

I think that Miller's numbers must be "Fine Ground" numbers from his
maltster, which represent the maximum extract that can be coaxed out in
a lab.  (I know he doesn't say that and in fact leads us to believe
that he gets those numbers himself, however, a quick check of his 2 row
yield is 35, but his recipe for Pilsner, which uses only 2 row as a
fermentable, shows an extract more like 33.)

Indeed, your extract relies on a number of variables:  age of malt,
mashing temperatures (do you really have uniform temperatures in your
mashing vessel?), mash pH, and sparging technique.  This last probably
has the largest effect on extract.  It's important to keep the
temperature up in the sparging vessel so that the sugars will flow
freely.

I'm always interested in improving the extract, but not at the expense
of the flavor of my beers, or at an unreasonable amount of time.
You'll be pleased to note that many brewpubs do far worse than you;
several I have visited seemed to be achieving between 25 and 28, and
making good beer at the same time.  The bottom line is to produce
good beer with your materials.  Consider that we are speaking of
small quantities of grain here, and that the cost in lost extract
is probably on the order of $1 for a batch.

It may be of interest to note that professional maltsters and brewers
don't use this form of measurement.  Instead, they quote extract as a
percentage of the dry weight of the grain, and this usually turns out
to be in the high 70s.  They also read specific gravity to 5 places
(i.e. 1.12345) in quoting these numbers, and take into account the
percent moisture in the grain.

		--Darryl Richman


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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 91 09:58:47 EDT
From: Chris Shenton <chris at asylum.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Two Requests

On Sat, 14 Sep 91, Brian Capouch <brianc at zeta.saintjoe.EDU> said:

Brian> My erstwhile brewing partner is headed on a several-day trip to
Brian> Scottsdale, Arizona, and wonders if there are more interesting ways to
Brian> spend his beer time than bar-hopping sports bars and swilling Bud Light.
Brian> Anyone out there know?

Head up the road (sorry, I forgot which one) to The Tree House, in Cave
Creek; it's probably a 30 minute drive. They've got some good beer, but are
not a brewery; a much better selection than I found in a week of searching
in Scotsdale. Good folks with a sign outside which reads ``Sense of humor
necessary''.

And yes, you *can* drink your beer in the tree house (and watch the sun set
over the desert hills).


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Date:    Mon, 16 Sep 1991 11:05:23 EDT
From: CHOLM at HUBIO2.HARVARD.EDU (Dave Rose)
Subject: Yeast and other issues

	First, thanks for replies to my previous postings.  Second, a recent
posting asked about the shelf life of yeast cultures.  I actually have not 
done too much culturing related to brewing, but I am a yeast geneticist by 
trade. The most stable way to store yeast is as a "stationary culture." This 
is just a culture which has been allowed to hggrow until all the nutrients in the
culture medium have been exhausted. A stationary culture will keep at 40C C (
(approximately refridgerator temperature) for at least a month.  It is important
that the culture really be in stationary phase, since stationary cells go into
a kind of dormancy which protects them during storage.  Now, this is all based
on lah experience, but requirements in the lab are somewhat more stringent
than those in the brewing, so I imagine the same rules apply.  
	fFinally, a question about yeast.  I have been using edme dried yeast
lately primarily becuase it is cheap and so am I.  Also, it got a good write
up in the yeast special issue of zymurgy.  For three batches,now, I have ahad
a wieird experience with it.  Fermentation starts quickly and proceeds vigorouslyfor 1-2 days. Then, very rapidly, fermentation activity comes to an apparent
standstill, with virtually no CO2 evolution and noproduction, and NO bubbling, ie the surface of
the wwort is completely clear. It wstays like this for about a week, and then
foam appears on the top and fermentation begins anew.  I first suspected 
contamination, but I don't think that's it.  I looked a the wort with a 
microscope and there are only yeast in there, and when I culture the wort on
plates I only get one type of colony, which suggests (but doesn't prove) that
there is no mixture in there (ie the real yeast and some wild yeast).  There is
also no off odor or flavor associated with the second fermentation.  So basicallyit isy it is just really odd. Has anyone heelse had this experience?  thanks.  d.

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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 91 11:13:50 -0400
From: Dan Brown <brown at usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
Subject: Lawnmower brew



Re: lawnmower brew...

I have heard my dad use the term before. Not sure where he got it from.
It has usually be in reference to lighter beers that one might drink on a
hot summer day after finnishing mowing the lawn. Its usually the kind of
beer that has to be fairly cold to taste halfway decent.

later.
Dan

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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1991 11:17 EDT
From: HERREN%midd.cc.middlebury.edu at mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #723 (September 13, 1991)

Yes the Catamount Christmas ale is pretty good, but I want to point out that
the Catamount brewery is only barely a micro, and is certainly not the only
micro in the Republic of Vermont. For any of you who have an opportunity, I
_highly_ recommend Long Trail Ale from the Long Trail micro, and Otter Creek
Copper Ale from the Otter Creek micro.

Of course those of you who are fans of lagers know the name Greg Noonan.
How many of you know that he is the proprietor of the Vermont Pub and Brewery
on the square in Burlington, VT?

 -David


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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 91 11:15:19 -0400
From: nolan at lheavx.DNET.NASA.GOV (Tom Nolan)
Subject: Plastic-y taste

One simple possibility for the origin of the "plastic-y" taste
in some homebrews might be the use of plastic milk-type
jugs for cooling water that has been pre-boiled. I boiled
a bunch of water and poured it hot into the plastic jugs 
that it originally came out of. When I tasted the cooled water
a day later it was awful! Overwhelming taste of plastic!
I had made a couple of batches this way and not noticed any
real problems, so either it goes away eventually or something
in the beer masks the taste. Anyway, I threw that water out,
and now I cool the water before putting it into any kind of plastic.

Tom

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Date: 16 Sep 91 08:38:18
From: Rad Equipment <Rad_Equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: RE>Homebrew Digest #723 (Se

        Reply to:   RE>Homebrew Digest #723 (Septe
>Date: Thu, 12 Sep 91 09:45:08 EDT
>From: Chris Shenton <chris at asylum.gsfc.nasa.gov>
>Subject: Re: cloves?


>I also just tried the Anchor Wheat this weekend. Very disappointing --
>lacks the full body and the smooth complexity of the South German
>Weizens it tries to emulate. Bummer. No cloves to speak of, either.

Sorry Chris but Anchor never tried to "emulate" any style of wheat with
their's.  In fact they are generally credited with creating the American Wheat
style.  Their focus was on the unique flavor imparted by the grain rather than
by the yeast (clove).

RW...



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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1991 11:39 EDT
From: HERREN%midd.cc.middlebury.edu at mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #724 (September 16, 1991)

Regarding raspberry stouts, I have brewed a couple and here are my observations.
First, I have always brewed a very high gravity stout, about 1.11 OG for a
resulting brew in the 7% alcohol range. At this high gravity, there were all
kinds of "off-flavors" if I drank the stout too young (ie., less than 10
months in the bottle).

If the questioner can wait, do so. You will be very rewarded. I too experienced
flat stout in the first months. Now I get a creamy head, wonderful
raspberry aroma, and my four favorite flavors on the mouth. Raspberry,
chocolate, stout, & coffee. Note that I didn't use either chocolate or coffee
but the tastes are definitely there. I brew this every year in September
when the local raspberries are available to be drunk the following christmas.
(ie, 15 months in the future--secondary often takes 9 weeks at cellar temp--
here in Vermont, as low as 42 degrees)

 -David


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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 91 11:55:08 EDT
From: larry at evi.com (Larry McCaig)
Subject: Using a hydrometer

Brian Capouch writes

> One comment on a recent thread: (inviting flames, I might add) I don't
> know how anyone can call him/herself a brewer and be without a
> hydrometer.

  According to the above, I cannot be called a brewer.

  I have been making beer since 1968 when the only malt available in the
states was Ma Bells Blue Ribbon Malt.  I have always recommended to any
beginner to use a Hydrometer, and own several myself. When I make wine,
I use the hydrometer, when I make beer, I don't. Based upon the type
of malt used, the quantity of the same, the brewing temperature and the
type of yeast used, I can pretty well determine when fermentation should
be done. I also know the approximate alcohol content, and don't really
care. At any rate, when the bubbles stop (around the expected time),
It's time to bottle. The point I am trying to make is:

I don't give a damn about how much or how little alcohol is in the
beer, I'm going to get a good idea the first time I drink it!
What is important to me is taste.  I don't say this is great 4.5% beer,
I say this is Great tasting beer.

  I am not trying to say there is anything at all wrong with using a
hydrometer, If you can't determine when fermentation is done without one, by
all means use it, that is not the point. This is sort of like using a
measuring spoon in cooking, I know how much a teaspoon is by pouring whatever
into my palm and looking at it.

By the way, the definition of a brewer is as follows:

1.)One who makes beer from malt and hops by infusion, boiling, and
fermentation.

2.)One who makes a beverage by boiling or steeping.

I see nothing about a hydrometer! Nuff said.

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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 91 10:41:51 CDT
From: Fritz Keinert <keinert at iastate.edu>
Subject: Wyeast

In HD #724, jmellby at iluvatar.dseg.ti.com asks

>> A friend asked me where the name WYeast originated from.  Apparently the
>> name originally had nothing to do with yeast.  Help?

Somebody recently asked if Wyeast yeast had anything to do with the
native American name for Mount Hood in Oregon. I don't know, but my
Wyeast packages come from the town of Mount Hood, OR, and have a
picture of Mount Hood on it. Pretty strong circumstantial evidence.
- ---
Fritz Keinert                             phone:  (515) 294-5128
Department of Mathematics                 fax:    (515) 294-5454
Iowa State University                     e-mail: keinert at iastate.edu
Ames, IA 50011


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Date: 16 September 1991 10:55:51 CDT
From: "Roger Deschner" <U52983 at UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Subject: No cloves in Lawnmower Beer

A local brewpub here in Chicago also makes its "lightest" beer, which is
targeted at the lawnmower beer market, as a wheat beer. Goose Island
Tanzen Ganz Kolsch is light, and actually made with a Cologne yeast and a
portion of wheat as per the style. Some batches really have been
reminiscent of the beer at the brewpubs of Cologne. (Technically,
however, it is illegal to make a beer called Kolsch outside of the
metropolitan area of Cologne, Germany; Kolsch is a legal appellation,
like Bourbon in Kentucky or Champagne in France.)

As far as I know, the term "Lawnmower Beer" was coined by none other than
Michael Jackson, some years ago.

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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 91 12:17:54 -0400
From: jxs58 at po.CWRU.Edu (John Stepp)
Subject: Brewing supplies in Cleveland


I'm new to the Cleveland area and have been searching for a H-brewing supply
store in the area (preferably the east side of town).  The one in the Yellow
Pages that I called had gone out of business.  I'm considering getting 
supplies by mail-order from Boston (my old haunt).  Thanks for the help.


- --
_______________
Dave Stepp
Case Western Reserve University
Cleveland OH

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Date:    Mon, 16 Sep 1991 12:30:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: D_KRUS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Daniel L. Krus)
Subject: RE: Easy question, and Thanks!

Reply to:  Peter Glen Berger

Inside the packaging of my hygrometer was the tabular data allowing me to
convert for ?? deg. to 60 deg.  The data was supplied as the number to add
or subtract from your present temperature spec. grav. reading to convert to
60 deg.  I plotted these values vs. temperature in both C and F.  I keep this
graph in the back of my brewing note book for quick reference.  I thought about
generating an equation but the function turns out to be nonlinear and plugging
numbers into a calculator in more work than just looking at the graph and
pulling off the number I need.  In all cases your only correcting the 0.00X
position of your spec. grav. reading.

|**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:|
| Internet:    D_KRUS at unhh.unh.edu              | Daniel L. Krus               |
| Compuserve:  71601,365                        | Parsons Hall                 |
|-----------------------------------------------| Department of Chemistry      |
|  "A good word is an easy obligation, but not  | U of New Hampshire           |
|  to speak ill, requires only our              | Durham, New Hampshire  03824 |
|  silence, which costs us nothing."  Tillotson | (603) 862-2521               |
|**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:|

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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1991 10:32:13 -0700
From: stevec at retix.retix.com (Steven M Cohn)
Subject: Lagering

Help!

I am attempting my first lager.  We brewed yesterday from a Williams Light
Lager Extract kit.  The yeast (Wyeast Bavarian Lager) was pitched last
night, and the carboy is currently in my living room.  Should I leave
it there (~70F) until fermentation catches?  I had then planned to move 
the carboy to my fridge which doesn't seem to go above 40F.  Is that
too cold? If so, what can I do to protect my yeast from the beautiful
Southern California weather.  

Also, some guidelines on how long to leave the beer in primary, secondary
and how long to bottle condition would be much appreciated.

In general, the experiences of people who have lagered in warm climates
would be welcome.

You can reply directly to me (stevec at retix.com), or if you think your 
reply is of general interest, go ahead and post it here.  But please
HURRY, the beer is getting warm!

Thanks in advance
Steve

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*
*
*  Steve Cohn								    *
*  National Technical Specialist					    *
*  Retix, Inc								    *
*  stevec at retix.com							    *
*  (213) 392-6113							     *
*							                    *
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*

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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 91 12:40:03 CDT
From: tmc at ncsa.uiuc.edu (Thinking Machine)
Subject: Re:  Homebrew Digest #724 (September 16, 1991)

Could you remove tmc at ncsa.uiuc.edu from the mailing list and add
saroff at uh.msc.edu?  

Thanks.

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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 91 10:27:06 PDT
From: devonh at sol.metaware.com (Devon Heron)
Subject: RE: Raspberry Stout

Jerry:
	I like a good stout, and one a little stronger than most, but
harsh aftertaste is enough to kill the weak at heart...  

	Age will definitely help mellow the aftertaste, but I don't know
if it will help carbonation.  I have a friend that brews some deadly 
stout, and we don't even touch it for a month.  The stuff is great after 
about 5 months.  Your Raspberry Stout will probably be great for Christmas.

=======================================================================
Devon Heron (Sys Admin)                   MetaWare Incorporated
               INTERNET: devonh at metaware.com
               UUCP:     uunet!metaware!devonh
               ATT:      (408)429-META x3082

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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 91 13:26:33 -0500
From: dbreiden at mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Subject: Priming

Hey all --

I've read the stuff about priming buckets and stuff with a moderate amount
of interest.  I use a bottling bucket.  One thing I don't do is stir!
I boil up my priming syrup, let it cool just a bit and dump it in the 
bottling bucket.  At the same time that I put in the syrup, I start my
siphon into the bucket.  I am careful not to splash or slosh as to avoid
getting O2 in the beer.  I also contrive to get the beer going into the 
bucket in such a way that it kind of swirls around. 

I figure that the heat of the syrup, putting it in the *bottom* of the bucket,
and the swirling of the beer give me enough mixing.  I've done this for
quite a few batches and have never had uneven carbonation.

Danny

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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 91 17:50:54 bst
From: Conn Copas <C.V.Copas at loughborough.ac.uk>
Subject: Plastic tastes

I can vouch for the fact that strange hop aromas can leave a plastic
aftertaste upon, shall we say, expiration. Last season I tried some of the
local wild hops, which looked vaguely Fuggle-like, for the first and last
time. They smelt totally exciting fresh, but were totally objectionable in
the final brew. I have also never found a hop extract/emulsion/oil which
did not taste artificial when used as part of an aroma technique.
Disappointingly, even some of the real ale here is boosted with extracts as
a substitute for dry hopping. 

Some other sources of plastic : the 'new fermenter taste', and some surface
film infections can give this sensation as well. Incidentally, Hough talks
about the use of nylon to reduce chill hazes in commercial brews. My memory
is dim, but I don't think he was talking about filtration. Presumably, the
theory goes that polyamides such as nylon are a synthetic approximation of
protein, and will precipitate some natural proteins from the brew in a
similar fashion to gelatine or isinglass. The mind boggles at the
aftertastes this practice might potentially leave.

Conn V Copas                                   tel : (0509)263171  ext 4164
Loughborough University of Technology          fax : (0509)610815
Computer-Human Interaction Research Centre            
Leicestershire  LE11 3TU                    e-mail -    
G Britain                         (Janet):C.V.Copas at uk.ac.lut  
                     (Internet):C.V.Copas%lut.ac.uk at nsfnet-relay.ac.uk







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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 91 11:32:11 -0700
From: benjamin at cgl.ucsf.EDU (Dennis Benjamin)
Subject: Cleveland homebrew supplies


	A friend of mine recently moved to Cleveland, and would like to
continue his homebrewing habit. However, he has not been able to find any
stores that sell supplies. Does anyone on this list live in Cleveland, or
know of any stores in the area?

	Thanks,

		Dennis Benjamin

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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1991 15:24:21 GMT
From: klloyd at convex.com (Ken Lloyd)
Subject: Ironmaster Bitter ?

I bought an Ironmaster Bitter kit over the weekend
and it has hopped extract and a vial of ISO hop 
concentrate. The label on the can said to add it
when fermentaion was over according to the instructions
in the leaflet included with the kit. I have read the 
leaflet 3 times to be sure I wasn't missing it, but it
doesn't have any clarification of just how to, just when,
or the amount of the concentrate to use. If anyone has
any experience with this kit I would appreciate any help
they could give me.

Thanks,

Ken(ne brewer) Lloyd


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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 91 14:55:11 EDT
From: hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Air Stat & Fridge holes


Al...

>I recommend against punching any holes in the walls of refridgerators.
>I was going to do this to mount my four faucets, but was talked out of
>it by my dad.  He pointed out that, between the inner and outer walls
>of your fridge is a layer of insulation (usually fiberglass).  Since the
>inner wall is cold, it would attract moisture which would condense on it
>and soak into the insulation.  Wet insulation (besides being a home for
>mold) simply does not insulate.

Well I didn't just leave the hole there, I stuffed some insulation back in
around the hole (it was a real thin wire, so the hole is the size of a 6D
common nail), and caulked it closed. This crowd is soooo literal, guess I need
to be more specific.

 - JaH



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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 91 12:04:55 EDT
From: eisen at kopf.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Carl West)
Subject: Wheat

In HBD 719 Martin postulated:
>It seems possible to me that the real reason
>brewers discovered that wheat shouldn't be mashed alone was that it
>has no separate husk, as barley does, so the mash turns the
>consistency of library paste. 

Well, actually it has a separate husk, so separate that it stays with the stalk when the grain is threshed. (this is based on my small experience with the bag-full of winter wheat I picked in the neighboring stripmine/development, they seem to have planted it to hold the dirt in place). It seems that what is needed is a wheat whose husk comes off the stalk with the seed. A friend sent me this little tidbit (thanks Corwin!):

Tabernaemontanus was the Latin name for Jacob Theodor von Bergzabern who wrote 
an Herbal (1588) which said:

"They take wheat, barley, spelt, rye, or oats, either one kind (for good beer 
can be prepared from all these cereals) or two or three together; they steep 
them in a fresh spring or good running water or (which is even better) in 
boiled hop water, until the grain bursts out. Then the water is run off and the 
grains dried in the sun. The water in which the grain is steeped is kept; when 
the grains are dry they are ground in the mills and the meal put into the 
aforementioned steep water. It is let boil for 3-4 hours and the hops added and 
all boiled up to a good froth. When that is done it is filled into other 
vessels. Some put a little leaven into it and this soon gains a sharp biting 
flavour and is pleasant to drink.

The English sometimes add to the brewed beer, to make it more pleasant, sugar, 
cinnamon, cloves, and other good spices in a small bag."

from:
H. S. CORRAN
A HISTORY OF BREWING
DAVID & CHARLES, LONDON, 1975, page 47



Webster's says:

spelt (spelt) n. [ME < OE < LL spelta < Gmc *spelto < IE base *(s)p(h)el-, 
to split off > spill] 1 a primitive species (Triticum spelta) of wheat with 
grains that do not thresh free of the chaff: now seldom cultivated. 
2 local name for EMMER

Well, tracking down emmer leads to `durum' which apparently doesn't thresh free 
either, perhaps this is the wheat to mash with.

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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 91 13:14:40 PDT
From: grumpy!cr at uunet.UU.NET (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: How efficient??


From: Dave Rose <CHOLM at HUBIO2.HARVARD.EDU>

>I am curious about how high extract yields are among the all-grain brewers out
>there.  The oft-quoted number from Miller is 33.  

I don't get 33 degrees per pound, and I don't know anyone who does. I get
30 at best and 27 is more typical. Dr Lewis at UC Davis makes his "standard
wort" with 8 lbs of grain (usually Klages) and gets a gravity of 1048. This
works out to 30 degrees per pound. Miller tends to get religious about his
technique, so why worry about a somewhat lower efficiency? If I have to add
another pound of grain to Miller's recipes to get the same gravity, it's no
big deal.

>There seemed to be an inverse relationship
>between the yield and the amount of grains being used, i.e. the worst yields
>were in barley wines and the like where lots of grains were being handled. 

This is normal. Sparging is a process of dilution, so you will never get
all of the sugar out of the mash. You can only approach that asymptotically.
The more you sparge, the higher your yield will be, and you will end up
with lots of low gravity wort. If you want a high gravity beer, you must
reduce the amount of sparge water used per pound of grain. When the folks
at Anchor make a batch of Old Foghorn, they do not not sparge - *at all*.
Obviously this will reduce your yield.

When making malt extract syrups (the ultimate in high gravity worts!),
the manufacturers take the first runnings from the mash to the boiler.
They then sparge the grains and use the runoff as strike water for the 
next mash. The yield is low, but this is cheaper for them then boiling
off all of the water that it would take to get a good yield.

In short, extract efficiency is a function of wort density. As the 
density increases, efficiency decreases.

CR

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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 91 19:59 GMT
From: "KATMAN.WNETS385" <6790753%356_WEST_58TH_5TH_FL%NEW_YORK_NY%WNET_6790753 at mcimail.com>
Subject: re:raspberry stout



     Date: 16-Sep-91      Time: 04:00 PM       Msg: EXT01945

Hi,
   Jerry Gaiser asks about harsh tastes and raspberry stout. It seems that when
you add much acid (like the acid in berries), you need to give more time for
the flavors to blend. I know that raspberry wine needs at least a year to be
drinkable, and more to be really good. No idea about beer, how long does it
take a framboise lambic to be drinkable?
   On a related note, I just made a "holiday porter" with grated orange rind,
cinnamon, cloves and ginger. It's happily fermenting in the heat. Why do we get
a heat wave every time I brew (twice so far :)? But really, how long will this
sort of brew need to age? I expect to bottle in 2-3 weeks, and was hoping to
drink the brew for Thanksgiving. Anyone familiar with the type?
   There was also a recent thread about cleaning gunk from inside kegs. I had
some really carbonized burnt on glue in my kettle. Heloise (as in hints from)
advised dumping some baking soda in and letting it sit overnight. It works
phenomenally. Just had to wipe the stuff off. I think baking soda is cheaper
than b-bright, you can use it with hot water (unlike bleach?) and you can
polish your silver with it (and a little aluminum foil and boiling water).
Amazing stuff.

Lee Katman == Thirteen/WNET == New York, NY

=Do not= use REPLY or ANSWERBACK, I can not receive mail in that fashion.
Please send all mail to
INTERNET katman.wnets385%wnet_6790753 at mcimail.com
OR
MCIMAIL EMS: wnet 6790753  MBX: katman.wnets385



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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 91 16:35:05 -0400
From: Marc Light <light at cs.rochester.edu>
Subject: pub database


A couple of months back I requested a list of the pubs with tasty
beer in NYC.  I received a listing from a database from some kind
fellow.  The listing contained addresses, phone numbers and
comments for most of the pubs.  The listing stated that the
database contained ca. 1300 pubs.  I have since lost the listing. 
I would love to have access to this database!  Does anyone know
where it lives and how I can get at it or get a copy of it? 
Thanks. 

				Marc


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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 91 15:04:50 edt
From: Greg_Habel at DGC.MCEO.DG.COM
Subject: Reply to Jerry Gaiser in HBD 724

Replying to Jerry Gaiser's question about undercarbonated bottled 
beer.   Jerry, normally I don't use less than 3/4 cup corn sugar for 
priming bottles because it would give extremely low levels of 
carbonation.  I would guess that when you used 3/4 cup CS in your 
first batch, it overcabonated because you bottled too soon.  For me, 
that amount of CS produces little carbonation.  Your second batch is 
undercarbonated simply because you did not used enough CS to prime.  
If you enjoy warmer beers, I would suggest allowing the bottles in 
your second batch to warm to 60 deg F to expand the CO2 and give more 
carbonation, then consume.  




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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 91 15:35:27 CDT
From: ingr!ingr!b11!mspe5!guy at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Priming with DME

    With all of the talk about priming with DME vs. corn sugar lately, I am
thinking about doing this for my Christmas brew.  My question is this:  should
I boil the DME in water to make a "syrup" and prime with that or is it O.K. to
prime with the powder without boiling.  I always boil my corn sugar in a bit
of water before priming with it so it seems logical to do the same with the
DME.  What do y'all think?

- -- 
==============================================================================
 Guy D. McConnell, Systems Engineer |            |"All that is gold does not
 Intergraph Corp.  Mail Stop CR1105 |     My     | glitter, not all those who
 Huntsville, AL. 35894-0001         |  opinions  | wander are lost, the old
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==============================================================================


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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 91 14:03:33 PDT
From: figmo at mica.berkeley.edu (Lynn Gold)
Subject: The term "lawnmower beer"

I think it must be a northern Californian expression.  I first heard
it from a friend out here who prefers to drink Bud and Bud Light; she
refers to her choice of beverage matter as "lawnmower beer."

Somehow I like Fritz Maytag's idea of "lawnmower beer" better.... :-)

- --Lynn

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Date: Mon Sep 16 14:09:44 1991
From: larryba at microsoft.com
Subject: Re: All Grain Extract Efficiency

In HBD 724, Dave Rose asks another good question: What kinds of grain
extract efficiency are homebrewers getting?

Some more Opinion: I think extract efficiency reports are sort of a weinie
wag among the brew community.  A couple of things to keep in mind when
comparing yours to anothers:

1. The volume at the end of the boil vs the amount that actually makes it
   into the Keg/bottle can be quite a bit different.  That will affect the
   appearent extract efficiency.  For example if you think you will get 1.050
   in 5.0 gal, but you actually have 5.5 gallons in your kettle the reading
   will be 5 / 5.5 * 50 or 1.046 - a big difference.

2. The extract yeild is different based on the grain type.  I use Dave
   Miller's numbers.

3. Some people may actually extract *less* than possible to avoid getting
   husk tannins or because they are doing a high gravity brew and don't want
   to boil off 5 gallons of extra water.

4. Calcium ion makes a big difference in enzyme activity (actually the Ph,
   but it is easiest to control by simply having enough calcium in your
   water)  See HBD #671 and 672 for a good summary by John Polstra.

I think # 1 and #4 are the biggest factors.  Your sparge bucket might also be
a factor. Having a poor crush (lots of whole grain) might be a factor as
well.  Also, I have heard that step mashing and decoction mashing result in
better yeilds.

All that said, (wag, wag) I routinely get rates comparable to Dave Miller
(e.g. +/- 3pt in a batch of 1.050 beer).  I have sparged from 4 min/gal to
10min/ gal and have used both a sparge bag and a false bottom lauter tun.
Poor crush or lack of calcium is highly correlated with my batches with poor
extract rates.  Well, actually, drinking too many homebrews is also
correlated with my mistakes %-}.


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Date: 16 Sep 91 17:29:44 EDT
From: Jeff Frane <70670.2067 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Nitrosamines & also yeast

Having read my notes on Nitrosamines, I realize I need to clarify one sentence
in particular, altho none of it is particularly clear. So the whole paragraph
should read:

"There is a natural nitrosamine precursor, dimethylamine (sp?) in *germinating*
barley. It is easily nitrosated (particularly in the presence of oxides or
nitrogen) into Nitrosadimethylmine--a carcinogen. If malting barley (since
malting is merely an artificial germination process) comes in direct contact
with combustion byproducts, Nitrosadimethyline will result. Great Western no
longer has any direct gas-fired malting kilns; theirs are either indirect hot
water or air-to-air. There *are* malting houses which use direct-fired kilns and
they subsequently purge the malt with SO2."

In re WYeast packaging, bursting, exploding, etc.: WYeast's recommendation is
that a swollen package be stuck into the refrigerator until it's needed for
pitching. Certainly this will keep it from bursting. I kept a package in the
refrigerator for one year so I could show my students what it should look like
when ready for use. This doesn't mean I would try to *brew* with this yeast, but
a day or two in the refrigerator doesn't seem to be a problem. 

Those who recommended a yeast starter to Norm Pyle are absolutely correct. If at
all possible, the starter should be pitched at high krausen, which is generally
about 8 to 12 hours from the time of the previous pitching (e.g., the time the
yeast package is pitched into the starter). "High krausen" doesn't necessarily
indicate a huge head on the starter, although it's usually possible to rouse one
by agitating the starter During high krausen, however, the starter should be
noticeably cloudy with yeast; if the starter is clear fermentation has
progressed too far and the starter should be fed some more wort. With adequate
aeration of the wort, and proper timing of the pitching, results should be
spectacular.

Incidentally, WYeast's Dave Logsdon and I are in the process of writing The
Yeast Book, which WYeast will be providing to their retailers to pass on to
customers. The book will be detailing procedures for using yeast; fermentation;
and the characteristics of specific yeast varieties. I requested some feedback
from members of the Compuserve Beer Forum and got some very useful requests.
Please, if you have any specific needs relating to yeast or to WYeast products,
direct them to me at Compuserve; I try to pick up all the HB Digests from the
Compuserve library but occasionally they get missed.







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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 91 15:51:50 PDT
From: bgros at sensitivity.berkeley.edu (Bryan Gros)
Subject: One more thing...

> and if you have a partial mash porter, please send it to me.  thanks.

Of course I meant to say "partial mash recipe for a porter", but if you
want to send me a porter, I won't turn it down :-)

One more question:
   if instead of priming with the usual 3/4 cup of corn sugar, I want
to prime with honey, how much do I use?  3/4 cup?  seems like I should
use more, since it is probably not 100% fermentable.  Also, how do I
add it?  boil it in some water?  add it straight?  seems like I should
at least heat it so it is less viscous.  Thanks for the help.

                                              - Bryan

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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 91 13:20:29 PDT
From: Martin A. Lodahl <hpfcmr.fc.hp.com!hplabs!pbmoss!malodah>
Subject: Fame (No Fortune)

In HOMEBREW Digest #724, Richard Stueven crowed:

> Subject: We're famous!
>
> Quoting from the "Dear Zymurgy" section of the Fall 1991 edition, page 9:
>
>	Editor's Note:  The internet network, accessible from many
>	universities and corporations, carries a "Homebrew Digest."  To
>	receive it, send electronic mail to Rob Gardner at
>	HOMEBREW-REQUEST%HPFCMR at HPLABS.HP.COM
>
> We're famous!

And will be more so.  The Spring 1992 edition is expected to have
articles devoted both to the AHA's CI$ forum _and_ to our beloved
HBD.  Complete with quotes from Our Moderator.  How 'bout that?

= Martin A. Lodahl   			Pacific*Bell Systems Analyst =
= malodah at pbmoss.Pacbell.COM       Sacramento, CA       916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids, runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me!  8-)   =


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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 91 13:50:47 PDT
From: Martin A. Lodahl <hpfcmr.fc.hp.com!hplabs!pbmoss!malodah>
Subject: Extract Efficiency Musings

In HOMEBREW Digest #724, Dave Rose observed:

> I am curious about how high extract yields are among the all-grain 
> brewers out there.  The oft-quoted number from Miller is 33.

That's right about my norm, too.  General range, 30-35, stovetop
step mash with Klages.  Deduct 5 points for pale ale malt.

>  If you want a real eye-opener, go through some of the Zymurgy special
> issues and look at the award-winning recipes ... average was something 
> like 25 and some were as low as 17!  There seemed to be an inverse
> relationship between the yield and the amount of grains being used, 
> i.e. the worst yields were in barley wines and the like where lots
> of grains were being handled. This makes me suspect that a lot of
> the loss comes in sparging ...

Exactly!  And the loss is deliberate.  What's happening in the case
of high-gravity beers is intentional under-sparging, sacrificing
efficiency to avoid a 6-hour boil.  In theory, there is a most
efficient ratio of water to grain, and if this ratio is maintained,
adding more grain will increase the volume of collected sweet wort,
at a constant specific gravity.  To produce a higher gravity wort
would require a (much) longer boil.  Shortening the sparge reduces
that need, but at the expense of lost efficiency.

Another factor that I suspect but have never been able to prove is
the shape of the volume of grain.  Unusually small batches, leading
to unusually shallow lauter tun fills, seem less efficient in my
equipment, but this makes less sense to me.

= Martin A. Lodahl   			Pacific*Bell Systems Analyst =
= malodah at pbmoss.Pacbell.COM       Sacramento, CA       916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids, runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me!  8-)   =


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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 91 14:21:21 PDT
From: Martin A. Lodahl <hpfcmr.fc.hp.com!hplabs!pbmoss!malodah>
Subject: Bottle Culturing

In HOMEBREW Digest #724, Tom Quinn sez:

>All the recent discussion of preparing yeast cultures leads me to ask
>how one would culture the yeast from a SNPA bottle.  I've never seen
>a bottle of this beer - does it have a layer of sediment at the bottom
>from which to start?

Yep.  Fairly good-sized, and densely packed.  A microbiologist from
Sierra Nevada told me that after brewing, they cold-filter the beer
to remove the yeast, then bottle with an acid-washed inoculation of
the (same type) yeast from another batch.  So the yeast you can
culture from yer average SNPA bottle may not have been the critters
that made your particular bottle of beer, but unlike Worthington and
most of the Hefeweizens, it's at least the same type.

Culturing yeast from any bottle-conditioned beer is pretty
straightforward.  First, chill the beer overnight, to encourage the
yeast to settle.  Then take it from the 'fridge, and while it's
warming, prepare a starter solution and sanitize your gear.  For a
starter solution I boil 4 Tbsp DME and a pinch of yeast energizer in
2 cups of water for 20 minutes, but I'm not attached to that; many
other solutions will work.  I usually boil in an Erlenmeyer flask,
which I transfer directly to a water bath to cool.  When it's cool,
I wipe the neck of the beer bottle with alcohol, flame it, open with
a sanitized opener, and decant to a pitcher (to drink when I'm
done).  If the beer bottle is 750ml or so, I'll then flame the necks
of the bottle and the flask, transfer some starter solution to
the bottle, swish it around to bring the yeast into suspension, add
the rest of the starter solution, and fix a fermentation lock to the
bottle.  If it's a smaller bottle, I'll dump the starter and
suspended yeast back into the flask, and put the fermentation lock
on that.  In either case, the lock will be blurping away within a
few days.

>  Or is there a method of culturing the yeast from a filtered beer?

Not that I know of.

>  There are some locally-produced microbrews I'd love
> to try to culture from...

A word of caution:  though many microbrews contain live yeast, many
also contain a lot of other stuff too.  One of the reasons for
SNPA's popularity for this sort of thing is that it's so
biologically clean, while the others ...

> Waiting patiently for my Zymurgy yeast issue to arrive,

Yes, it's a goodie.

= Martin A. Lodahl   			Pacific*Bell Systems Analyst =
= malodah at pbmoss.Pacbell.COM       Sacramento, CA       916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids, runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me!  8-)   =


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Date:    Mon, 16 Sep 91 21:51 EDT
From: Scott Knowles <NECHO%NCSUMVS.BITNET at ncsuvm.cc.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #722 (September 12, 1991)

Brewers,
  I look to the learned of this list for info about growing my
own hops.  Does anyone have experience with this?
  I have been told that, under suitable conditions, hopvines are quite
prolific, can be trained to grow up a trellis, and require little
maintenance.  Just what kind of conditions are required?  Are hops
sensitive to soil & microclimate like grape vines are?  Is growing
hops an art and science like viniculture, or is it more like raising
cabbage?
  Me thinks that a home-grown hop would be a nice adjunct to
a home-brewed beer.  Any tips, tricks, or stories (especially those
relevant to growing in North Carolina and/or Florida) would be welcome.

  Scott Knowles
  Raleigh, NC

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Date:    Mon, 16 Sep 91 22:08:28 EDT
From: IO10676 at maine.maine.edu
Subject: Hydrometer Correction Table

Greetings All . . .

A posting to HBD #724 got me to thinking . . . Last spring, my
brewpartner extrapolated the table that came with our hydrometer, typed
it into his computer, and put it on our system.  The result is an ASCII
file that has hydrometer corrections by temperature in 1 degree C
increments over a reasonably large range.  I'd be more than happy to
share this with any HBDers who are interested.

If you are, please e-mail me (privately!) and I'll compile a list.  At
the top of said list already is PB1P+ at andrew.cmu.com, whose posting
yesterday started me on this.  If there is truly OVERWHELMING response,
I'll throw bandwidth to the wind and just post the whole thing (it's
not THAT big, after all) to the HBD.

Sterling Udell
Big Dog Brewing Cooperative - Eastern Division
IO10676 at MAINE.BITNET
SU0751G at maineiac.umcs.maine.edu

"Setting New Standards in Brewing Quality"  - Big Dog Looker Lager
                                              (forthcoming)

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #725, 09/17/91
*************************************
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