---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Soya sauce. (John Buchanan)
  Re: Raspberries in Beer (John DeCarlo)
  RE: Homebrew Digest #725 (September 17, 1991) (HOLM LAB, HARVARD UNIVERSITY)
  Re: hop growing (Chris Shenton)
  Loose keg top (Bill Slack)
  Vermont, Tanzen Ganz Kolsch, Fame (hersh)
  Hop growing basics (flowers)
  scales (Russ Gelinas)
  Re: Homebrew Digest #725 (September 17, 1991) (Brian Capouch)
  Dead yeasties (DAVID KLEIN)
  Freezing grain (Darren Evans-Young)
  frig repair (Mike Lang)
  Divers and sundry (Greg Wageman)
  Plastic-y taste
  CHRISTMAS RECIPES (Mike Barker)
  Re: Bittering Units  (Darryl Okahata)
  Bart (MIKE LIGAS)


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[Please do not send me requests for back issues!]
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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 91 22:23 -0700
From: John Buchanan <buchanan at cs.ubc.ca>
Subject: Soya sauce.


I just noticed on my soya sauce bottle the words 'naturally fermented'.
Naturally this caught my eye.  I checked on the japanese soya sauce and sure
enough this one said 'Naturally brewed'.  

Ok, so what process is used to produce soya sauce?  Has anyone brewed their
own or is the process beyond the home production stage?  I know that home
brewers en masse will not want to do this, in fact I would probably not be
interested in much more than a academic discussion.


This leads me to another question which I have had for a while.  Does the
germination of other seeds (such a beans ) produce the required starch
reducing enzymes or is this particular side effect of germination only found
in grains?  Maybe beans do produce the required enzymes but the beers have
been found to be perfectly awfull...........

Just some questions hoping for some answers.


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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 91 23:35:04 EST
From: gregg at maddog.anu.edu.au (michael gregg)

Hi Everybody,

I just made up a yeast starter to culture some yeast from a Cooper's
Stout.  I used about 2 tblsp of light dry malt extract boiled for a
few minutes in 1 cup of water.  When the "wort" was done boiling, it
had a lot of apparently insoluble crud in suspension.  I have been
using this brand of malt for over 1 year but now wonder if this is
normal, or should I look for a better extract?  It tastes fine, but I
suspect it might have some sort of extender added to lower the
manufacturer's cost.  It comes in unmarked plastic bags and I don't
even know what company produces it.  The only other brand of malt I
can get easily is ground to a powder the consistency of flour and it
is very hard to dissolve it, even in boiling water (it does
eventually, but makes big gooey lumps that last many minutes in a
rolling boil.)  I also don't think it tastes as malty as the variety
that leaves crud in my yeast starter.  Any advice on these malts?  I
live in Australia, so I don't have 24 different malts and suppliers to
choose from; these are the only two I can get locally.

Michael Gregg                   gregg at mso.anu.edu.au
Somewhere over the rainbow

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Date: Tuesday, 17 Sep 1991 09:32:27 EDT
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re: Raspberries in Beer

>From: "Jeff Casey / (617)253-0885" <CASEY at DAQ1.PFC.MIT.EDU>

> ...I tried a batch a year or two ago.  It wasn't a stout like
>Jerry's, but a moderately heavy ale (starting gravity about
>1.055, some crystal and roast barley, and moderate hops
>(probably Cascades) to about bu 15 in a full grain mash of pale
>malt).  I tossed in a couple pounds of frozen rasberries with
>the finishing hops, so the heat would sterilize them but not

>The result was very weird.  It tasted like a fair (but not
>great) ale, with rasberries on the side -- the two tastes were
>distinct, and didn't blend well.  The smell was heavenly, and
>the initial taste was even quite good, but the aftertaste was
>indeed harsh and acidic.  Time (months) mellowed it a little,

Well, I don't have the recipe with me, but I made a raspberry
ale, fairly light (I think around 1.044 or so, pre-raspberries),
no roast barley, just light malt extract and about 1/2 lb. of
crystal.

I tossed in 3.5 lbs of fresh raspberries that had been put in the
freezer about half a day.

Everyone (even Michael Jackson, visiting our club when he was in
town) liked this beer.  Some at the club were mildly surprised,
given some of my early efforts I had brought in for tasting.  I
had graduated to using liquid yeast by this time (last fall).

Actually, one person didn't like it--my wife.  But she doesn't
like the taste of beer and hoped the raspberries would mask that
taste (they didn't).  It does have that strong, sour raspberry
taste to it.

John "It came out so well I should make it an annual thing"
DeCarlo

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
           (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date:    Tue, 17 Sep 1991 10:22:51 EDT
From: CHOLM at HUBIO2.HARVARD.EDU (HOLM LAB, HARVARD UNIVERSITY)
Subject: RE: Homebrew Digest #725 (September 17, 1991)

	In HBD #725 there is a gernalneral question about growing one's own hops.
I have been growing my own for three years wnnow arnd am happy with the results.
I got root cuttings (cascade and williamette) from my local homebres w shop and
planted according to directions.  Each year, vines come up from each 'hill' in
the spring, and I cut back all but the smost vigourous 21 or 2.  These theyn hen grow
very raplipidly throughout the spring.  I use a very simplole and cheap trellis
which is just a big 22x4 (maybe 10') in the center of my six vines, with
strings leading from each vine up to the top in a sort of "maypole" config-
uration.  The vines climb up and sort of hang off the top.  I just water them
and I usually mulch over with some good organic mulch like grass clippings.
I harvest in september when the first signs of brown-ness appear on some of
the hops.  I have been told to harvest just before they turn brown, but I 
havent't figured out how to do that yet.  After picking, which takes a while, 
I dry the hops for 1-2 days on window screens set up on milk crates; this is
low tech but it works.  Then I pack the dried hops into Ball jars and store
them in the freezer.  In the past I haven't used the whole harvest in a year
of brewing (this year I'm brewing more and probably will), and even last years
crop still seems OK, bi just use the freshest ones I've got for dry hopping or
aromatic hops.  Note that I end up with a cascade-williamett e 'blend,' which
might bug some people, but i like it.  So, it is a pretty easy thing to do,
although I am sure I could worry a lot more about it and maybe get better r
results.    
	
					Dave Rose.
					CHOLM at HUBIO2.HARVARD.EDU

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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 91 10:39:59 EDT
From: Chris Shenton <chris at asylum.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: hop growing

On Mon, 16 Sep 91, Scott Knowles <NECHO%NCSUMVS.BITNET at ncsuvm.cc.ncsu.edu> said:

Scott> I look to the learned of this list for info about growing my
Scott> own hops.  Does anyone have experience with this?

I planted some last year: 5 varieties with two rhizomes each, from
Freshhops. Because I have a postage stamp instead of a yard, they are very
close together. I put up string to the roof of my house (about 25 feet),
and when the hops emerged from the soil, wound them onto strings.

Some of the varieties didn't do anything, but the Cascade in particular really
took off. This year, they came up by themselves in the early spring, and I
repeated the string thing. Again, the Cascades went crazy: they've run out
of string and are looking more like a hop *bush* in my upstairs porch.

Here in DC, we have pretty hot summers, and the hops get a lot of sun
during they day. I'm a pretty lazy gardener, so I didn't do much soil prep
except chopping it up a bit and adding some peat moss...


Scott> Me thinks that a home-grown hop would be a nice adjunct to
Scott> a home-brewed beer.

Yeah, but it would help if they had an alpha content sticker on them :-). I
haven't brewed with them, but will probably try aroma hopping with this
year's Cascades.

Hoppy trails!

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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 91 07:54:56 EDT
From: hplabs!decwrl!inetgw!decvax!wslack!wrs (Bill Slack)
Subject: Loose keg top

I recently  acquired  a five gallon stainless soda keg made by Firestone
for Pepsi.  It has a rubber top with two handles molded in.  One side of
the top has come  loose.  What's the best way to re-attach it?  Is there
an adhesive that bonds to  rubber  and  stainless  steel?    How did the
manufacturer do it? 

So far, I've had the following suggestions:

1. It can't be done.
2.  Use RTV silicon seal  but  first  verify  that the acetic acid won't
hurt the rubber or steel.
3. Use two-part epoxy (epoxy plus hardener).
4.  There should be a little bit of rubber still stuck to the steel.  Try
to go with a rubber-to-rubber bond. 
5. RDWHAHB

Can anyone help? 

Thanks,

Bill--
                                _______________________________________
Bill Slack                     |                                       |
  wslack!wrs at gozer.UUCP        |- Opugnatio bonam defensio optima est -|
  uunet!wang!gozer!wslack!wrs  |_______________________________________|



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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 91 12:06:57 EDT
From: hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Vermont, Tanzen Ganz Kolsch, Fame


>How many of you know that he is the proprietor of the Vermont Pub and Brewery
>on the square in Burlington, VT?

Only those friends of his who insist on visitng him on a regular basis
(like us Worts here in Beantwon :-)!!

> Goose Island
>Tanzen Ganz Kolsch is light, and actually made with a Cologne yeast and a
>portion of wheat as per the style

Perhaps I'm slipping, but I've never heard of wheat as being characteristic of
a Kolsch, and most of the Kolsch I've drunk was actually reasonably full
bodied, certainly more body than the typical "lawnmower" beer.

As for the term I heard it used long before I knew who either Michael Jackson
was...

>And will be more so.  The Spring 1992 edition is expected to have
>articles devoted both to the AHA's CI$ forum _and_ to our beloved
>HBD.  Complete with quotes from Our Moderator.  How 'bout that?

In that case it's time to start bashing on the AHA again!! :-)

 - JaH (but my Mom always called me trouble...)

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
assume that you are moderate in everything.
you now have an eXcess of moderation, a contradiction.

eXcessiveness is clearly the way to go...


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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1991 11:26:53 -0600
From: flowers at csrd.uiuc.edu
Subject: Hop growing basics

Some generally accepted facts about getting started with hop growing--

Hops grow best at northern lattitudes.  North Carolina and/or Florida are
not great hop growing areas.  That's not to say they won't grow there, just
might need a little extra care etc.  Heraring from someone growing hops in
those regions would be a big help.

Hops are propagated from root cuttings called rhizomes.  They are usually
only available in the spring.  You can get them from some homebrew supply
stores as well as Freshops (can someone help with a phone #) and Nichols
Garden Nursery (I can provide this number tomorrow).  I suggest ordering
early (like in the fall) just so you don't miss out.  Nichols offers at
least three varieties and sells out early.

They are VERY hardy and can stand frosts so they should be planted early. 
The first year you may not get many hop cones.  This is normal.  The second
year (sometimes you have to wait to the third year) should be a good crop.

Give them plenty of room to grow up.  They can grow a foot per day during
the 'growth spurt'.  (A couple people on this digest were going to try
growing hops horizontally.  No word from them yet about their success.)

Pick hops when they are spongy and you can see the little yellow sacs at
the base of the cones.

Hops should be dried before using.  Placing them in an attic seems to work
well.  I use an old electric hairdryer connected to a wooden box to make a
drying bin.

Homegrown hops will probably be a bit stronger than store bought hops. 
Most likely because they are EXTREMELY fresh.  Hops lose strength very
rapidly.

Cut the stalks to the ground for the winter.  They will return in the
spring.

Certain pests like hops.  I will refrain from comment in this area as my
hops have not been bothered (knock on wood).  Listen to someone with
experience in taking care of pests.

Again, these are GENERALLY accepted points about hops.  Like any other
aspect of brewing, you can get lost in the details of hop growing if you
like.  In fact, it's just about the right time for a good hop discussion
around here.

Have I left any of the basics out?

 -Craig Flowers
 flowers at csrd.uiuc.edu


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Date:    Tue, 17 Sep 1991 14:54:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: scales

  What do the rest of you all-grain brewers use for a scale?  I've been
using a baby scale to get ballpark weights, but I'm not thrilled with it.
The weights *are* in the ballpark, but they're in the last row of the
bleachers (next to Bob Uecker) in the nose-bleed seats.  Makes it tough
to guage that all important extract efficiency......

Russ Gelinas

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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 91 14:26:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: Brian Capouch <brianc at zeta.saintjoe.EDU>
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #725 (September 17, 1991)

Excerpts from homebrew: 17-Sep-91 Homebrew Digest #725 (Septe.. Verify
a. b. sending at hpf (50894)

>  I have been told that, under suitable conditions, hopvines are quite
> prolific, can be trained to grow up a trellis, and require little
> maintenance.  Just what kind of conditions are required?  Are hops
> sensitive to soil & microclimate like grape vines are?  Is growing
> hops an art and science like viniculture, or is it more like raising
> cabbage?

Hops are indeed, quite prolific, given the proper circumstances.  During
my pilgrimage to the Northwest last August, I spent a day at the Oregon
State Hop Research Center in Corvallis, then went for a visit to a large
(~400 acre) hop grower in the Willamette Valley.  

A couple of things that I found most interesting are that 1) hops really
*have* to be trained onto poles or strings up into the air to be
productive, and when I say up, I mean UUUUP!!--18 to 20 feet is the
standard out there.  Propagation beds are untrained, so hops will in
fact grow that way, but they won't be very productive and will be
subject to all sorts of fungi and insects that otherwise wouldn't bother
them. 

2) Also of prime importance is the variety of hops in question.  Don't
just plant some generic "hops" and hope to get big yields of tasty
cones.  You must know what sort of alpha you desire in the variety you
plant, and (the real rub) since there isn't a lot of modern data about
varietal acclimation to most of the US, you'll have to experiment a bit
to find out which varieties are best suited to your area.  

To sum up, I'd have to say that growing hops is more like viniculture
than coliculture (new word i just coined) in that there's a lot of
finickiness in growing hops, and after you've got the cones, you have to
be very careful to dry them properly and store them properly if you want
them to be worth using in your brewery.

Brian Capouch
Saint Joseph's College for Children
brianc at saintjoe.edu

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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 91 12:48 MST
From: DAVID KLEIN <PAKLEIN at ccit.arizona.edu>
Subject: Dead yeasties


    Got me a small problem...

 Earlier this summer I made me a bock that turned out excellent. Everything
was done in the fridge, and seemed to work fine (but slow).

 I bottled over a month ago, and placed the bottles in a fride for the
yeast to go at it. The first bottle was beautifuly carbonated about 1 week
into the process. But bottles tried over the next two weeks were not carbonated
I then turned the fridge off, but after about a week, nothing.
    Last week I tried an experiment... One (and only one) bottle was a
grolch. So I opened it up, and put about 1-2 tsp of sugar in. I got instant
fizzing (bit 'o dissolved gas...) but then after a week, I tried the bottle
and there was no improvement.

     So now, I have 2 casses of bock with bearly any carbonation (very slight
fizz when the bottle opens, no head) The addition of sugar does not seem to
help (i.e. I did not forget to add sugar when botteling). Alchol is not high
enough to cause trouble (O.G. about 1.055 F.G. about 1.02) (yeast: Wyeast
Braverian lager).

     But I think by yeast went to that pearly beer in the sky. The best guess
is that somewhere in the lager process, it got too cold for two long (And that
one fizzy bottle was one that may have had some of the sludge, and a nordic
yeast in it.) Has anyone ever saved a beer in this situation. I am considering
pouring all the beer into a bucket and adding new yeast, but I really don't
want to. I would like to add yeast to each bottle, but am not sure of a way
to do this and make sure that there is enough yeast and not enough baddies.


Ideas?
Dave

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Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 91 15:26:20 CDT
From: Darren Evans-Young <DARREN at UA1VM.UA.EDU>
Subject:      Freezing grain


If I buy malted barley precrushed, can I store the grain in the freezer?
Or will this affect the enzymes?  My last batch of crushed grain has a
few bugs running around in it.  I just make sure I do a good protein
rest to break down the protein in the critters. :-)

Darren

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*
| Darren Evans-Young, Sys Prg                  BITNET: DARREN at UA1VM.BITNET  |
| The University of Alabama                  Internet: DARREN at UA1VM.UA.EDU  |
| Seebeck Computer Center                       Phone: (205)348-3988 / 5380 |
| Tuscaloosa, Alabama  35487-0346                      (205)348-3993 FAX    |
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*

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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 91 14:49:34 MDT
From: mike at chtm.eece.unm.edu (Mike Lang)
Subject: frig repair

   (This is beer related, it will be exclusively for brewskis)

I got hold of a mostly dead refrigerator.  The freezer gets almost cool after 
24hrs, the frig part gets warm.  Any good references on repair, or pointers 
on what to look for?  

	The guy with the large toaster oven,
					
Mike Lang					mike at chtm.unm.edu
Center for High Technology Materials		(505)-277-3317  (x0770)
University of New Mexico


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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 91 14:16:52 PDT
From: greg at cemax.com (Greg Wageman)
Subject: Divers and sundry

Subject: Plastic-y taste

A common source of a "plastic-y" tastes in homebrew is phenols, as in
"phenolic".  As I recall, and please don't hesitate to correct me if
I'm wrong, production of phenols can be reduced by brewing at cooler
temperatures and/or by changing your strain of yeast.

Larry McCaig writes:

>I don't give a damn about how much or how little alcohol is in the
>beer, I'm going to get a good idea the first time I drink it!
>What is important to me is taste.  I don't say this is great 4.5% beer,
>I say this is Great tasting beer.
>
>  I am not trying to say there is anything at all wrong with using a
>hydrometer, If you can't determine when fermentation is done without one, by
>all means use it, that is not the point. This is sort of like using a
>measuring spoon in cooking, I know how much a teaspoon is by pouring whatever
>into my palm and looking at it.

This is the classic "Brewing as a Science vs. Brewing as an Art" debate.

Yes, it's true I have never seen a Gourmet Chef measure seasonings;
it's all done by eye (and taste) based on long experience.  He KNOWS
the effect he's after, and just how to get it.  And there's no arguing
that the results don't suffer for it (quite the contrary).  On the
other hand, chances are a dish is slightly different (depending on his
mood) every time he makes it.

In the other camp, any lab technician who measured "by eye" would be
laughed out of his lab.  And given sufficient care, that tech can
reproduce his results within very small tolerances, time and again.
With careful notes of variations in ingredients and method, favorable
results can also be replicated at will.

I'm not going to take sides on the validity of either approach; in any
case it would be pointless, as what I say is unlikely to change anyone's
opinion.

Just remember, the Gourmet Chef didn't START OUT measuring by eye, and
many Great Chefs were *formally trained* at schools in their art.

You do a disservice to homebrewers of the scientific bent to suggest
that hydrometers are only useful for determining alcohol content.  When
attempting to replicate someone else's recipe it is useful to know if
you've achieved the same O.G. as they, and the hydrometer allows one to
adjust it if necessary.

Given variations in yeast attenuativeness and fermentation conditions,
it's often useful to know just how far down the wort fermented with
a particular strain of yeast.  Without the O.G and F.G. readings,
there's no *objective* basis for comparison.

Do you think successful commercial brewers produce thousands of bbls.
of identical-tasting beer, year after year, without quantifying every
step of the process?

For beginners' sakes, I recommend instrumentation such as scales for
weighing hops and hydrometers for measuring S.G.  When the beginner is
no longer a beginner, understands the brewing art/science well enough
to know what the effect is of altering the ratios of ingredients,
then he can choose for himself whether to continue with the
instumentation, or go by instinct.  But we do beginners no good to
suggest that they dispense completely with measurement, toss the
ingredients together, and stand back to Ohh!, Ahh! and marvel at the
end result.

OK, I guess I have taken a stand after all; my science background is
showing.  But I'm not suggesting that every step of the *homebrewing*
process need be quantized and controlled to the point of
anal-retentiveness, and neither am I suggesting that excellent beer
cannot be brewed using the methodology of a chef.  But the more you
know about what happened to your ingredients along the way to their
becoming beer, the more you can understand *and control* the process.

An enlightened brewer is almost certainly a better brewer.

End of diatribe.  Flames directly to me, please.

	Greg (cemax!greg at sj.ate.slb.com)

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Date: 17 Sep 91 19:54 -0700
From: Mike Barker <mbarker at cue.bc.ca>
Subject: CHRISTMAS RECIPES

Over the last few weeks there have been a number of
mentions of Christmas beers.  I thought that this year I
would try one of these beers, however, there seeems to be a
lack of recipes.  The one in the Cat's Meow doesn't appear
to be that different.  I am sure that I am not alone with
this problem.  What I would like to suggest is that the
next few issues of the Digest carry some favourite
Christmas recipes and favourite Christmas brews.
 
Just a thought to vary the content and interest.
 


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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 91 19:59:44 PDT
From: Darryl Okahata <darrylo at hpnmxx.sr.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Bittering Units 

> Actually, Darryl, I humbly suggest that Kent is using the
> infamous "Homebrew Bittering Units".  Charlie P. now gives an
> explanation after his usual recipe in _zymurgy_ each issue.

     Actually, I humbly suggest that AAUs and HBUs are the same.  1001 ;-)
One ounce of a 1% alpha hop == 1 AAU == 1 HBU.  The concept of HBUs was,
I believe, introduced by the late Dave Line (if he wasn't the
originator, he did popularize the idea).  I don't know where AAUs came
from, although Dave Miller talks about it in TCHOHB.

     -- Darryl Okahata
	Internet: darrylo at sr.hp.com

DISCLAIMER: this message is the author's personal opinion and does not
constitute the support, opinion or policy of Hewlett-Packard or of the
little green men that have been following him all day.

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Date: 	Tue, 17 Sep 1991 22:19:00 -0400
From: MIKE LIGAS <LIGAS at SSCvax.CIS.McMaster.CA>
Subject: Bart


                HAVE A
               HOMEBREW
                 MAN
               /
 |\/\/\/|    /
 |      |
 |      |
 | (o)(o)
 C      _)
  | ,___|
  |   /
 /____\
/      \

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #726, 09/18/91
*************************************
-------

---