---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  re: more uses for the hydrometer (Darryl Richman)
  re: plastic carboys (Darryl Richman)
  scales (Tony Babinec)
  homegrown hops (HERREN)
  NY Times article on Munich (OCONNOR)
  Hop growing and drying... (night)
  Hop Sex (wasn't he the cook on Bonanza?) (krweiss)
  aeration at bottling time (mcnally)
  Scales (Don McDaniel)
  Hop sex, scales and extract efficiency, Momily (Andy Leith)
  male and female hops (HERREN)
  using fresh frozen hops (HERREN)
  Dry Hopping (Norm Pyle)
  re: momily (Bob Mastors)
  weiss question (Bergman)
  Reply to Homebrew Digest #727 (September 19, 1991)  (rsd)
  Many Hoppy Returns ... (Martin A. Lodahl)
  California Small Brewer's Festival (Gary D. Archer 8-284-6387)
  Original Gravity Corrections (Bryan Gros)
  Re: Momily (MIKE LIGAS)
  Request (Jeff Frane)
  Tips for first time all-grain brewing.
  Iodine (Jack Schmidling)
  HELP!!! How do you download archives to mac? (ANDY HILL)
  RE: Dry ice priming .... (ANDY HILL)
  Brewing As Alchemy (MIKE LIGAS)
  Re: hop comments (korz)
  Hydrometer use (Shannon Posniewski)
  Plastic Carbouys (hersh)
  Hop Drying (wbt)
  Homegrown Hops (Scott P. Greeley )
  LA Times article (Tom Hamilton)
  Hydrometers (Martin A. Lodahl)
  Small Brewing Scales, for Small-Scale Brewers (Martin A. Lodahl)
  Dry hopping? (mike_schrempp)
  Hop Growing (pt 2  in Seattle) (Norm Hardy)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 05:46:23 -0700
From: darryl at ism.isc.com (Darryl Richman)
Subject: re: more uses for the hydrometer

Since Russ Gelinas pointed out that there are some other reasons to use
a hydrometer, and since we've been discussing the extract efficiency of
mashing, I thought I'd point out how I use a hydrometer to get a good
idea of how well my mash went before I start sparging.

Let us suppose that I've mashed and transfered into
my lauter tun, and am starting to recirculate for clarity.  I take a
sample of the sweet wort and cool it down and take a reading.  Of course,
this reading is not going to be anywhere near my expected original gravity.
But, assuming that my newly created sugar is all in solution, I can take
that reading and multiply it by the ratio of mash water to batch size
and get a maximum prediction for my original gravity.

For example, I have 10 gallons of mash, 25 lbs. of grain, and my batch
is intended for 15 gallons.  If my reading is 1.075, then 10/15 * 75
is 50, so my maximum OG is 1.050.  So, 15 * 50 / 25 = 30, or my extract
efficiency is 1.030 specific gravity points * lb. / gal.

Naturally, I have other losses in my system that prevent this maximum
reading from being obtained at the finish, but the more you know about
where the losses occur in your system, the more prepared you are to
have an effect on them.

One can do this at each stage if one knows the correct volume.  I must
admit that it is a bit depressing to see a really great extract being
whittled away to mere mediocrity...

		--Darryl Richman

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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 06:13:43 -0700
From: darryl at ism.isc.com (Darryl Richman)
Subject: re: plastic carboys

Dave Ros asks about using the plastic (polycarbonate) carboys that more
and more of the water companies are switching to.  I've been using them
for three or four years now and I love them.

*  They don't break.

*  They're very lightweight.

*  I sanitize them with boiling water so I don't care whether they have
scratches;  I figure that if the polycarbonate is about 200F, it
doesn't matter whether the evil nasties are in direct contact with the
water or not.  (And it works, no infected batches in that time.)
In fact, I brew entirely in plastic fermenters for this reason.

*  Rodney Morris claims that they are moderately impermiable to to
oxygen, but I lagered my Bock Aasswards doppelbock for about 5 months
in them, and the judges seemed to like it. ;-)

*  If I really don't like the looks of a carboy, I trade it in for a
new one.

*  Because they are not completely rigid, you can have problems when
you move them because they will suck the airlock sterilant after you
set them down.

I have found several other uses for them, like transporting grain
to/from having it crushed, and bring in mash and sparge water to
the brewery (no running water in the garage).

		--Darryl Richman

P.S.  Dave, if you use the left arrow key instead of the delete key,
it leaves "escape codes" that direct the cursor left rather than 
actually deleting the character.  You won't see this on your PC since
it can interpret the escape code correctly, but most folks are reading
this on UNIX systems and they see each of the codes instead.

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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 9:22:24 CDT
From: tony at spss.com (Tony Babinec)
Subject: scales

I have two scales.  For weighing grains, I have a Krups scale that
ranges from 0 to 5 pounds in increments of an ounce, and also has a
metric scale.  It comes in two pieces:  the scale part, and a bowl.
The bowl easily holds a couple of pounds of grain.  I typically weigh
and then grind as I go.  The scale can be found in gourmet food stores
or gourmet sections of large retail stores, such as Marshall Field's
in the Midwest.  It cost under $20.  For weighing hops, I broke down
and bought one of those counterweight "science" scales, along with a
set of gram weights.  I believe one should calculate hop additions in
grams, as this is a more precise scale.  Spring scales, diet scales,
and the like, simply aren't scaled to enough precision.  This scale
must have cost about $50-$60.  You can find it in "science" stores
(American Science Center in Chicago) or some homebrew supply stores.

Having just made a case for precision in measuring hops, I find that
after doing the hop addition calculations, I can often round things
a bit so that additions are conveniently done in units of one-half
ounce, which conforms to the packaging of the wonderful Crosby and
Baker compressed hops!  If you have never used them, they are packaged
in 5 ounce volumes with alpha content printed on the package, and are
indented so that they break off in half-ounce chunks.  

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1991 10:41 EDT
From: HERREN%midd.cc.middlebury.edu at mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: homegrown hops

I put in my first batch of hops this past spring here in Vermont (down the
road from Greg Noonan's place!). I planted Hallertau, Fuggles, & Cascade. I
couldn't find any rhizome cuttings so I bought actually cuttings just barely
rooted. Things were slow to start, but the Cascades took a very early lead.
The fuggles were very slow (they had poorer light) and Hallertau somewhere in
the middle. That was until about halfway through the summer (in Vermont,
halfway through the summer means the first of July!). The Cascade stopped
growing, put out all their flowers, coned, and then just sat there, about
6-10 feet high. Meanwhile the Hallertau started to spurt. They eventually hit
22 feet high (my roof off the back of a walk out basement house), went over
the edge and crawled up the roof. I've not seen so much vegetation from
any vine. They produced easily 4 times what the other varieties did and were
less susceptible to pests (the Cascade were quite eaten).

More about pests. I can't quite tell why or what they did, but my vines were
often covered by wasps. They didn't eat anything as near as I can tell. I
would often watch one buzzing around (looking out the window of my house
so as not to disturb them) and I never saw them munch anything. Yet there
were dozens of them on each vine. Could it be they were lying in wait for
hop-eating insects?
 -David


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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1991 10:45 EST
From: OCONNOR%SCORVA%SNYBUFVA.BITNET at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: NY Times article on Munich

For those interested, Sundays edition of the New York Times had an
article on Munich specifically about beer and where to drink it.
Might be good for those traveling there soon.  Look in the travel
section.

Kieran

oconnor at snycorva.bitnet

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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 08:23:56 -0700
From: night at tekig7.map.tek.com
Subject: Hop growing and drying...


In HBD#727 Ihor Slabicky wrote:

>You really should have one or two male plants and many female plants
>to have a lot of hops.

A local commercial purveyor of hops told me that you do not need any
male plants.  The female produces the hop buds, the male does not.  The only 
reason to have a male plant is to pollinate the female in order for the
seeds to have the ability to germinate.  We, as homebrewers, want the hops for
the buds and not the seeds... therefore, don't waste your time with male
plants.


In HBD#727 Norm Hardy wrote:

>I put each variety on a window screen and placed in inside my car, sitting
>in the sun for the day (inside temp 115f).  Only a few hops were in direct
>sunlight.  The windows were obviously closed.  Seemed to work quite well
>and the bagging into the freezer bags (with Seal-a-meal) went well also.

I have a pamphlet provided by a commercial hop grower in Oregon which 
explains the growing and harvesting of your own hops.  It says DO NOT 
dry the hops at over 105f, otherwise, the aromatic oils (which we are most 
interested in!) will go away.  In fact, another book I have on drying herbs
(yes, hops are herbs.) states not to dry them at over 95f. Essentially, the
higher the drying temperature the more of the volitile aromatic oils you 
lose.  I dried this years crop in a food dryer at room temp. and have never
smelled more aromatic hops! 


Ahhhh... the life it is!... Living in Washington and growing hops!

Mark Nightingale

night at tekig7.MAP.TEK.com



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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1991 08:31:56 -0800
From: krweiss at ucdavis.edu
Subject: Hop Sex (wasn't he the cook on Bonanza?)

Ihor writes:

>Hops have male and female plants.  You
>really should have one or two male plants and many female plants
>to have a lot of hops.

I'd be curious to know more about this. I believe hops are a polyploid
(maybe a diploid?) of marijuana... Marijuana flower and resin production is
optimized by having NO male plants at all. Since the hop rhizomes will
re-germinate every year, unless you're trying to grow new hop plants from
seed I don't think you'd want male plants.

Ken Weiss               krweiss at ucdavis.edu
Computing Services      916/752-5554
U.C. Davis
Davis, CA 95616


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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 09:06:17 -0700
From: mcnally at Pa.dec.com
Subject: aeration at bottling time


I would say that it's unlikely that the foam on top of the beer is formed
by CO2; if there's that much CO2 in solution, it's probably not ready to
bottle.  Although you're correct that the stream of liquid has only a 
limited surface area, remember that that splashing noise means that air
is being carried into the wort by the collision of the stream with the
surface of the fluid already in the carboy. 

Think of what happens when you pour a stream of water into a bucket of 
water containing a little detergent:  you get bubbles, right?  This
happens because the detergent has increased the foamability of the 
water, and the air dissolved into the water is trapped by the surface
tension.

I would probably agree that the aeration won't do to much damage, but I 
also doubt it's necessary.  Aeration is important at pitching time
because it's important to propagate the yeast.  At bottling time, even
though a lot of yeast has settled to the bottom, there's still plenty
in suspension.  Thus it's not necessary to induce another respiratory 
"breeding" phase; all you want is more fermentation.  It *is* possible
to damage beer by oxidation (though it's never happened to me), so I
feel that if it can be avoided, one might as well.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike McNally                                           mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation
Western Software Lab

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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 09:26:50 -0600
From: dinsdale at chtm.eece.unm.edu (Don McDaniel)
Subject: Scales

Russ,

I use a 16 oz. diet scale (available at any cookware store and many
grocery stores) to measure my grains.  Most of my recipes run about
6-7 lbs. of grain, so the one-lb. limit is bo big deal.  Further, the
hopper on my Corona mill holds only about 1.5 .bs.


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 11:13:57 CDT
From: andy at wups.wustl.edu (Andy Leith)
Subject: Hop sex, scales and extract efficiency, Momily


re. hops comments   Ihor Slabicky

Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1991 11:19 EDT
From: HERREN%midd.cc.middlebury.edu at mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: male and female hops

I have to take issue with the suggestion that you _want_ both male and
female plants. Wrong. Only females produce the cones, and if they are
fertilized, they will produce seeds, which you DON'T want in your beer.
When one buys rhizones or cuttings for their first planting, they can be
assured that they get only females. Also, since hops are a rhizome producing
plant, you can get more hops than you need letting them reproduce asexually.

All in all it's a situation very similar to another somewhat popular plant
grown under lights in many places, though without the rhizones...
 -David


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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1991 11:33 EDT
From: HERREN%midd.cc.middlebury.edu at mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: using fresh frozen hops

The book I used to get me started on hop growing suggests that "wet" hops are
not as easy to use since they are variably "wet" and therefore produce
variable "alpha" levels. Dry hops are thus easier to measure since they is
less variation.
 -David

(sorry, the name of the book slips my tongue right now, but it's a self-
published thing from Oregon)


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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 09:40:43 MDT
From: pyle at intellistor.com (Norm Pyle)
Subject: Dry Hopping

I recently brewed a bitter/pale ale recipe and its
got me to thinking about dry hopping
to improve the finish even more.  I have heard a lot
about dry hopping but don't know how many of you have
done it.  Do you just throw fresh hops in the brew
after primary fermentation?  How long do you leave them
in?  Do you prepare them in any way?  Blah, blah, blah?

I'd love it if we could get several different views on
your dry hopping methods for the digest.  Please: details!
Thanks.

I'd like my Christmas batch to make me a hop-head in
hop-heaven...

Norm Pyle
pyle at intellistor.com


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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 09:26:17 MDT
From: mastors at Central.Sun.COM (Bob Mastors)
Subject: re: momily

 ...
>  He refused to believe that the beer made in the video could 
>  have been drinkable because I let the syphon outfall drop 
>  into the priming vessel.  (Great shot, beautiful billowing 
 ...
>  1.  The amount of surface area exposed to air in the narrow 
>  column of falling beer is trivial and steadily shrinking.
>  2.  The CO2 blanket keeps rising to cover more and more of 
>  the column making exposure to air, near zero near the end.
 ...

Since you asked:

	a) Your momily is no better then his momily.  At some
	   point you have to put aside the theory and do
	   some experiments.

	b) If you have ever heard a master woodworker comment
	   on another woodworker's technique it would sound
	   similar.  Same goes for stock brokers, landscapers,
	   stereo reviewers, and software engineers.

	c) The only thing that matters is how the beer tastes.

Bob

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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 14:32:03 GMT
From: Bergman <iceberg at sctc.af.mil>
Subject: weiss question

Howdy,
   OK, so here I am in Germany.  Got two questions:
   
   1.  What is the difference bettween a weiss and a weizen?  I know that
weiss translates to 'white' and weizen as 'wheat', but what's the deal.  I've
been told every thing from they are the same, to one is just a light beer while
the other is made from wheat. I'm sooo confused.  Also, why does my local
barkeep through a wedge of lemon into my weiss?

   2.  Does anyone know of a local german distributer for homebrew supplies?
I hadn't planned on continuing the hobby, but I'm hooked and my freinds can't
wait to try a home brew.  How 'bout a US dist. who ships to an APO address,
as opposed to UPS.??

BTW,  I got a big kick the 2nd day I was here, visiting the local castle.  
when I looked over the side of the wall, there were several dozen wild
hop vines growing.  I think I could learn to like this place...


    Thanks,      |                                   |
    Johnny B.    | - And I felt like a pickled       | iceberg at sctc.af.mil
                 |   priest who was being flambed.   |   
                 |                    P. Townsend    | Standard Disclaimer.
   --------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 10:55:28 -0400
From: rsd at silk.udev.cdc.com
Subject: Reply to Homebrew Digest #727 (September 19, 1991) 

I appologize to everyone if this is the fourteenth Jack Schmidling
flame that you've waded through today.  It is a huge credit to the
digest and its subscribers that the SN ratio is consistently so
high, and that the contributions so consistently valuable (at least
to me).  

In this vein, If you do not wish to be further persueded that Jack
is probably not qualified to produce the video "BREW IT AT HOME", go
on to the next article. 

Jack asks:

   1.  The amount of surface area exposed to air in the narrow 
   column of falling beer is trivial and steadily shrinking.

Initially there will be no CO2 and lots of splashing.  This initial
phase alone will probably damage the beer.  Furthermore,
The question presumes that air is being transported into the
beer only by diffusion into the falling column of beer.  This
is not, in fact, the case.  The falling beer molecules are
not falling through air molecules that are fixed.  The falling
beer is actively transporting the air immediately surrounding
the falling column into the beer.  The average velocity of
an average air molecule immediately adjacent to the falling column
of beer will be the same as the velocity of an average falling
beer molecule.  (The velocity of an average air molecule
will be a function of the distance of the molecule from
the column, and the distance of the molecule from the
end of the siphon.) Furthermore, the turbulence created by the 
beer falling into the priming bucket will help to disolve the
air that has been introduced.  Finally, if the falling column
of beer is not "coherent"  It will have a far greater surface area
than Jack's question suggests, introducing still more air into the
beer.

   2.  The CO2 blanket keeps rising to cover more and more of 
   the column making exposure to air, near zero near the end. 

The CO2 blanket is only helping to keep air from diffusing in
through the surface of the beer in the priming bucket.  Diffusion
is slower than molasses anyway.  The problem this solves 
is not nearly as great a problem as the others you have created.

    3.  If the pros inject oxygen while pitching yeast and 
    homebrewers are supposed to splash it around to oxygenate at 
    pitching time, what harm can a little oxygen do when we want 
    to re-invigorate the fermentation at bottling time?

This is the question I found most infuriating.  It would not be
infuriating if asked by a novice home brewer.  It's a good question.
The problem I have with Jack asking it is that it means he has
zero familiarity with the yeast life cycle.  This means he
has done essentially no reading on the subject of home brewing.  He
is making this video without trying to understand his subject.

Jack has demonstrated that he is making this video without making
a good faith effort to understand his subject matter.  It seems 
to me that Jack plans to deceive people into thinking that his video
is a useful guide to home brewing.  It also seems to me that Jack
plans to profit from sales of the video that arise from this
deception.  In Minnesota, this combination of deception and profit
is what constitutes the legal definition of fraud.

It probably won't matter.  I imagine that most reputable homebrew
outlets will quickly recognize the amateurishness of Jack's 
technique and refuse to carry it.

Sorry for raving.
Richard Dale
rsd at silk.udev.cdc.com

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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 10:36:12 PDT
From: Martin A. Lodahl <hpfcmr.fc.hp.com!hplabs!pbmoss!malodah>
Subject: Many Hoppy Returns ...

HOMEBREW Digest #727 seemed inclined toward hops questions.

Ihor W. Slabicky:

>		... I just finished reading a book
>about an old English garden at Barton's End, in Kent, England.
>They mention that hops were grown by the Barton's and other
>Kentish farmers.  The hop fields used to be burned to get rid
>of aphid infestations.  Hops have male and female plants.  You
>really should have one or two male plants and many female plants
>to have a lot of hops.
>
>Aphid infestations have been mentioned here, but I don't think
>that anyone has mentioned anything about the male/female plants.
>When you order hop rhizomes, are you give the choice of which 
>you get?  Do you get whatever happens to be there when they pack
>your order?

You get female plant rhizomes.  Only British varieties (notably
Fuggles and Kent Goldings) are commercially marketable with the kind
of seed content you'll get if male plants are present.  Unless you
plan on growing several acres of hops, you probably shouldn't have a
male plant at all.


Jeff J. Miller:

>...  I think the string idea might work better in that I would imagine
>that you coule simply cut the string and slide the vine off of it (comments
>from anyone?)

Yes, you could do that, but you don't need to.  David Beach mentions
in his book (Homegrown Hops) the techniques most of my club's hop
growers seem to use, that of training a few (3, usually) vines up
the string and cutting the rest back, then when those vines reach
the top, train 3 more, etc.  Harvest then, isn't a single operation,
but consists of picking the cones that are ripe, a couple of times a
week for as long as the vines still produce.  You get a lot of cones
from a single plant that way, but you need access to the whole
plant, which often means having a good ladder.

> probably half of this harvest was mounded around the top.

My entire harvest was right at the top.  Fortunately, I'd trained my
vines up to the railing on the deck, so I picked in comfort!

>Another problem is that as the root gets larger it pops new growth EVERYWHERE!

	... thanks to the rhizomes.  These can be cut off and used
to propagate new plants.  They make great trade goods!


And Norm Hardy:

>I used rabbit droppings for occasional fertilizer ...

Now why didn't I think of that?  I knew the stuff had to be good for
something!   I use chicken manure & straw, but will add the rabbit
dung forthwith!

= Martin A. Lodahl   			Pacific*Bell Systems Analyst =
= malodah at pbmoss.Pacbell.COM       Sacramento, CA       916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids, runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me!  8-)   =


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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 11:12:47 PDT
From: Gary D. Archer 8-284-6387 <archer at STLVM2.vnet.ibm.com>
Subject: California Small Brewer's Festival

For SF Bay-area readers and those coming to the area, the CA Small Brewer's Fest
from 11am-5pm.  Its at the cornerof Franklin/Evelyn Streets, near the
Tied House Brewery.  Last year they had representatives from about 30
local (and some not so local) small brewerys.   They usally set up
a large tent at the street intersection with the brewers setting up
small booths for tastings.  Usally the owner or brewmaster is present
and quite willing to chat about their brews.. get there early, and
go on Saturday, as Sunday is much more crowded.  Tickets are $10, which
gets you a festival mug and 5 drink tokens.  To order in advance call
800-479-2739, or you can go to the Tied House in Mt. View and purchase
the Mug/Tokens in advance of the event.

It's a great time... go support your local micro-brewerys.

Gary

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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 11:45:43 PDT
From: bgros at sensitivity.berkeley.edu (Bryan Gros)
Subject: Original Gravity Corrections

I made my wheat beer last weekend.  my first partial mash.  After
cooling, i racked into the carboy and added the yeast (first time
to use liquid yeast...worked fine).  I grabbed a bit of the stuff
left in the bucket to measure the original gravity.  It came
out to about 58.  This seemed pretty high.  The wort had a lot
of trub in it, though, and would this be making the reading much
higher?  It is also a little high, since I added about 2 qts of 
water to the carboy to bring it up to about 5 gals. 

I mashed two lbs wheat malt, and one lb pale malt, and added three
lbs wheat extract and one lb pale extract.  What's the theoretical
OG??

Thanks. 
                                    - Bryan

p.s.  the main difference i noticed between the liquid yeast and
the red star i'd been using is the bubble size.  the liquid gave
much smaller bubbles in the wort and the krausen seems much finer.
The wort was not as active during fermentation as it seemed to be
with the dry yeast.  I used a starter and it worked fine.

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Date: 	Thu, 19 Sep 1991 12:05:00 -0400
From: MIKE LIGAS <LIGAS at SSCvax.CIS.McMaster.CA>
Subject: Re: Momily

In HD727 arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) writes:
> I was roundly criticized by the first "expert" to review the
> preliminary cut of "BREW IT AT HOME" and I am wondering if
> the fraternity is suffering from another "momily".  (That's
> one of those things we believe because mom said so.)
> He refused to believe that the beer made in the video could
> have been drinkable because I let the syphon outfall drop
> into the priming vessel.  (Great shot, beautiful billowing
> foam, nice splashing sound.)
> He was particularly outraged at the foam.  When I reminded
> him that the foam was CO2 and building a nice anerobic
> blanket over the beer, he just shook his head and dared me
> to bring him a bottle of the beer but that is another story.

It is unclear from the above description if you are racking into a secondary
fermenter or into a priming vessel at bottling time, but in either case the
beer would unlikely be producing sufficient CO2 to form a protective blanket
against oxygen. If the end of the syphon hose is not submerged during the
racking process then oxygen is coming into contact with the surface of the
stream of beer even before it hits the bottom of the vessel and calculations
are not needed to deduce that a large surface area is exposed to air.

> My thoughts on the subject are as follows:

> 1.  The amount of surface area exposed to air in the narrow
> column of falling beer is trivial and steadily shrinking.

The narrower the column of falling beer the larger the surface area:volume
ratio and the greater the extent of oxidation.

> 2.  The CO2 blanket keeps rising to cover more and more of
> the column making exposure to air, near zero near the end.

As mentioned above, beer syphoned at later stages of fermentation or at
bottling time is susceptible to oxidation due to a reduced degree of CO2
production or its absence altogether (which would hopefully be the case at
bottling time to prevent glass grenades). I'd be concerned therefore that a CO2
blanket is either non-existent or fairly thin and easily disrupted by the air
turbulence generated by syphoning. The foam is more likely a result of
splashing.

> 3.  If the pros inject oxygen while pitching yeast and
> homebrewers are supposed to splash it around to oxygenate at
> pitching time, what harm can a little oxygen do when we want
> to re-invigorate the fermentation at bottling time?

The harm is that fermentation has produced many compounds which are readily
oxidized and whose oxidation products produce off-flavours. Yeast require O2
initially during the respiration phase of growth in order to utilize the
various nutrients available for cell growth and division as well as to produce
a variety of molecules which will serve as a source of energy during the
anaerobic fermentation phase. Once the nutrients in the wort are spent and cell
density is optimum additional oxygen will not be quickly utilized by the yeast
and will be available to initiate redox reactions.

If sufficient oxygen is in the wort at the time of pitching then the yeast will
synthesize enough energy reserves for primary, secondary and bottle
fermentations.

The processes of oxidation of fermented beer have been well documented.  Here
are a few examples:

1. Fatty Acid Oxidation
   -oxidation of fatty acids produces aldehydes (eg. oxidation of oleic acid)
    which taste 'soapy'.

2. Oxidation of Phenolics
   -oxidized phenols produce an 'astringent' taste which can be harsh and
    burning. Furthermore, oxidized polyphenols contribute to chill haze.

3. Oxidation of Acetohydroxy Acids
   -produces diacetyl in amounts which can exceed the yeasts diacetyl reducing
    capacity during aging.

4. Oxidation of Amino Acids
   -produces fusel alcohols, esters and aldehydes. Can result in harsh off-
    flavours and excessive fruitiness. Aldehydes are particularily nasty.

> P.S.  He also claims that a tsp of vitimin C at bottling
> time will cure the ills of oxygenation.  Any thoughts?

Vitamin C is an antioxidant but to claim it will "cure the ills of oxygenation"
is false. Although ascorbic acid (Vit. C) is an oxygen scavenger, it is not a
strong one. Ascorbate (oxidized ascorbic acid) can be an oxidizing agent if
sufficient iron is present in the beer!

I'm not attempting to raise the level of worrying amongst HD readers about
oxidation. If your beer tastes good then be happy. If you desire better beer
then there are an endless variety of ways to improve your homebrewed nectar and
reducing oxidation is one of them as borne out by experience, scientific
analysis and of course, Mom.  ;-)


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Date: 19 Sep 91 14:57:34 EDT
From: Jeff Frane <70670.2067 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Request

Please put me on your mailing list for HomebrewDigest.
Jeff Frane <70670.2067 at compuserve.com
thanx


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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 12:38:34 PDT
From: dannet!bruce at uunet.UU.NET (Bruce Hill)

Subject: Tips for first time all-grain brewing.

or "I kinda wish I'd thought of that before I started this..."

Hi,

My brewpartner and I are about to try all-grain brewing for the first time.
I would like to hear from all you experienced mashers about the
mistakes you made during the first time you brewed all-grain and your 
solutions.  This includes what you found lacking in your equipment, 
technique, planning and execution of mashing grain for the first time.
I am going to condense all of this wonderful wisdom into a 
summary that will be eventually posted to this esteemed forum.

Our immediate goal is to get our equipment ready and our procedures
down before we make our first batch.  Any information on equipment design
and techniques will be greatly appreciated.

Please send your tips via e-mail to me (this digest is getting too long).

Thanks,

Bruce T. Hill          Danford Corp.               voice: (213) 514-9334 
Project Manager        350 W. 5th St.              FAX:   (213) 831-0454
uunet!dannet!bruce     San Pedro, CA 90731 USA
or dannet!bruce at uunet.UU.NET

P.S.  Keep up the good work Rob!  I know how busy they keep you.

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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 11:43 CDT
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Iodine

 
 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 Date:    Mon, 09 Sep 91 08:37:02 EDT
 From: JWHITE at maine.maine.edu (Jim White)
 
 >Iodine testing:
 
 >Did I use the right stuff? This iodine was like what we 
 used to apply to cuts, etc. Is there a colorless iodine I 
 should've used?
 
 You used the right stuff but you need to dilute it but you 
 need to dilute it about 50:1 with water.
 
 jack
 

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Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1991 08:46:14 NZST
From: ANDY HILL <violator at matai.vuw.ac.nz>
Subject: HELP!!! How do you download archives to mac?

hi

can anyone help me download some of the archives (esp. cats_meow) on to
the mac? I have access to PC's but i'm pretty ignorant on how to use them

Any help would be much appreciated.... please!?!?!?!

Cheers

Andy

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Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1991 08:56:08 NZST
From: ANDY HILL <violator at matai.vuw.ac.nz>
Subject: RE: Dry ice priming ....


g'day!

i have tried dry ice priming, but only to a few bottles. Really, we had a
try and it was quite dangerous. We put one pellet of dry ice into the bottle,
capped it, and shook it like hell to dissolve the pellet. My friend reckoned
he had done it before and was sitting there shaking this bottle saying "you
have to shake it real well otherwise the top comes off and ..." you guessed
it, beer all over the kitchen!

Why are you trying dry ice? It would take ages to bottle a batch using this
method - maybe we did it wrong - it was still bloody funny though!!!

Hope this may have been of some use...

Andy

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Date: 	Thu, 19 Sep 1991 15:11:00 -0400
From: MIKE LIGAS <LIGAS at SSCvax.CIS.McMaster.CA>
Subject: Brewing As Alchemy

It seems that a single letter on the importance of a hydrometer has stimulated
a series of replies and counter-replies in the past few issues and these have
evolved into discussions of "Brewing as a Science" versus "Brewing as an Art".
Well, I can resist no longer. I submit that the "versus" concept be dropped.

IMHO brewing is a wonderful marriage of Science *AND* Art. My personal pursuit
in brewing is much like that of an alchemist, trying to find the panacea by
transforming base ingredients into something precious. A brewer knows his/her
objectives, be it a dry stout, a malty porter, a fragrant pilsner or a tart
weizen. One's perception of what constitutes perfection within these loosely
described styles is personal and is one of the many artistic components of
brewing and tasting beer. Fine tuning a successful recipe and procedure to
achieve a desired end requires understanding the scientific component of
brewing. An attempt, for example, to brew a pale ale with the dry bitterness of
Double Diamond could be frustrating without an understanding of the influence of
water hardness and calcium on the perception of hop bitterness. Other
attributes like colour, body, aroma and flavour to name a few (along with the
diversity inherent within each attribute) should all be appreciated for both
the artisitic component of their perception, balance and appreciation and the
scientific components of the brewing process which affect their final outcome.
When designing a recipe I find that the creative process must work with the
scientific process or the pen should be put down...and another homebrew should
be consumed.

Maybe that is why homebrewers are such a fun and unusual lot. Every homebrewer
that I have met is independent minded, creative and unique. It is the
uniqueness that makes defining a homebrewer singularily impossible. Thank
Gambrinus for that.

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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 13:51 CDT
From: ihlpl!korz at att.att.com
Subject: Re: hop comments

Ihor--
Male hop plants do not produce cones.  The rhizomes, which you get
from distributors, are all females.  Pollinated females will produce
seeds which we don't want in our beermaking hops, so keep male hop
plants away.
Al.

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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 12:08:24 EDT
From: imagesys!shannon at uu.psi.com (Shannon Posniewski)
Subject: Hydrometer use


Here's our two cents from the Congress Street Brewery:

We use a hydrometer during brewing... sort of.  We take the S.G. at all the 
appropriate times, but we have never used the S.G. readings to determine when
it is ready for bottling.

When it stops bubbling, we give it a couple days, take the S.G. (out of 
curiosity, more than anything else), and bottle it.  In most circumstances, 
it comes down .040 or so.  If it doesn't, we note that it's a little odd, 
and bottle anyway.

The best thing (and the major reason why we still do it) about taking the S.G.
is that it yeilds about 4oz of beer/mead/whatever that is simply _waiting_ to
be tasted.

So we do.  Sometimes we think that we took the (unused) gravity wrong and have
to do it all over again.  Rats.

We calculate the % alc, but we find that the numbers don't come out very well.
We find that tasting gives a better measure of the alcoholic content than any
S.G. eq'n.

Shannon

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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 18:06:02 EDT
From: hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Plastic Carbouys



Well we've been over this before in the past.
I just looked at the ones on our water cooler here at work.
They are #7 (whatever plastic that is) and specifically say
FOR WATER ONLY, DO NOT REFILL WITH ANY OTHER LIQUIDS.

While the results of our previous discussion indicated that there are
plastics that are supposed to be safe for alcohol (there are some
alcohol products sold in plastic bottles), my personal suggestion is to
exercise caution and be sure of what type of plastic you have and that it 
is safe for holding alcohol, since there was a problem in the past with
the FDA recalling certain types of plastic containers from use for 
holding alcohol because they leached carcinogens.


 - JaH


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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 17:05:48 EDT
From: cbema!wbt at att.att.com
Subject: Hop Drying


When you folks who grow hops dry them, how do you know when they're dry
enough?

When I buy (leaf) hops, my dealer has them bagged and chilled to prevent
oxidation.  When I get them home I bag them, going so far as to suck the 
air out of the ziploc bag, and chill them in the 'fridge.  In drying, y'all
heat them and expose them to air.  Seems like a mighty fine line in 
between... 

Seems to me (here I go again) that the safest way to go would be as
follows:

	Harvest your hops, all at the same time, so you can assume
they have a similar moisture content.  Draw a small "random sample" and 
freeze the rest(*).  Weigh the sample, dry it, and re-weigh, so you can 
say "X ounces of wet hops equals Y ounces dry weight."  Any time you need
to weigh the hops, weigh the frozen(wet) hops and apply this conversion.  
If you oxidize and ruin the sample, no big deal.

(*) Freezing isn't be a problem, is it?  If anything, it might cause  
the lupulin sacs to burst or be weakened and actually improve
utilization.

Sunlight, as we know, reacts with hops once brewed; obviously, it can't
have a harmful effect on living, growing hops.  I would presume that it has
no effect on harvested hops, either.  Right?

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker	AT&T Network Systems - Columbus      wbt at cbnews.att.com


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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 16:57:15 PDT
From: greeley at kermit.boeing.com (Scott P. Greeley )
Subject: Homegrown Hops


I have been growing my own hops for several years now here in the Kent
Valley, whence the Kent Golding hops were named.  I have five varieties
that entwine themselves on 1/4" braided nylon rope on the South side
of my house.  Four of the varieties annually make it to the top of the
rope two stories up.  Actually, they grow past the second story, but that's
another story.  I get more hops than I can use annually (I'm a better
gardener than a drinker), mostly from a Nugget plant.  I usually don't get
any appreciable quantity from my Wilamette plant but I don't know why.

I never bother to dry the hops because I think it's too much work.  I stuff
the fresh hops into tupperware and ziplocks and store them in the freezer.
I've never measured the moisture of my hops but I have found that using
four times more undried hops (by weight) than the amount of dried hops
you would normally use gives the right amount of hopiness.  This appears to
work because I've got a five-gallon keg in my basement now that is so hoppy
that even Bert Grant would be proud of me.

Harvest is relatively simple.  At harvest time, I unhook the rope where it
attaches to the roof eaves and cut the vines at the bottom.  I then take
the whole assembly to the deck, drape it over my lap, grab a mug of
homebrew and pick and sip, pick and sip... and plan the next batch of beer.

Scott Greeley
Boeing Aerospace 

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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 18:21:21 PDT
From: Tom Hamilton <tlh at ISI.EDU>
Subject: LA Times article

Just thought ya'll might find this interesting. Found it on page 2 in
the business section of the Sept. 19 edition of the LOS ANGELES TIMES.
All typos are probably mine.

>From ASSOCIATED PRESS
WASHINGTON- Agriculture Department scientists are finding that if you
brew a better beer, the world will beat a path to your door.
 They have developed some new, American varieties of hops and barley
that they say provide Old-World flavor and superior malting qualities,
and are working on several more.
 Last spring, plant geneticist Alfred Haunold said he released the
newest hop, call Liberty, said to have the desirable aroma qualities
found in its parent, a popular German hop called Hallertauer
Mittelfruh.
 "Yet Liberty isn't troubled by the disease problems and poor yields
that have all but wiped out plantings of Hallertuaer bred in Europe",
said a report in the September issue of the USRDA magazine
Agricultural Reasearch.
 Liberty thrives in the temperate Pacific Northwest and produces double
the yields of the Old World variety. A similar hop, Mt. Hood, was
released in 1989 in Corvallis, Ore.
 About 58 million pounds of hops are harvested each year in
Washington, Oregon and Idaho.

Cheers
Tom Hamilton   U of So Cal   Info Sci Inst

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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 12:34:12 PDT
From: Martin A. Lodahl <hpfcmr.fc.hp.com!hplabs!pbmoss!malodah>
Subject: Hydrometers

In HOMEBREW Digest #727 the hydrometer thread continued.  Time to
put in my ha'p'orth:

Russ Gelinas:

>  Another good use for a hydrometer is to check the results of a 
> mash ...
		[ excellent example deleted ]

Absolutely!  Many also use the SG of the runnings to determine when
it's time to stop sparging.  Yep, IMHO, thermometers, hydrometers,
and careful record keeping are the brewers' friends ...


Guy McConnell:

>		...  I am an
> extract/adjunct brewer and I think I can see where a hydrometer 
> would be of a great deal more service for all-grain brewers.

I respectfully disagree.  The usefulness of a hydrometer for extract
brewers is in monitoring the drop in SG during fermentation, so you
have a fighting chance of determining whether the airlock has
stopped glupping because it's all done, or because fermentation is
"stuck".  This is traditionally more of a problem in extract
batches, and we now know it's due to lower levels of free amino
nitrogen in extract worts.  Its usefulness as a tool increases as
you use it, if you keep records.  Extracts have different degrees
of fermentability, yeast have different degrees of attenuation, and
both can be affected by temperature and water composition.  It will
probably take several batches before you can accurately assess your
wort and beer using the hydrometer, but it's worth the trouble, when
things don't go according to plan.

= Martin A. Lodahl   			Pacific*Bell Systems Analyst =
= malodah at pbmoss.Pacbell.COM       Sacramento, CA       916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids, runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me!  8-)   =


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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 12:46:35 PDT
From: Martin A. Lodahl <hpfcmr.fc.hp.com!hplabs!pbmoss!malodah>
Subject: Small Brewing Scales, for Small-Scale Brewers

In HOMEBREW Digest #727, Chris Shenton asked:

>OK, my turn: what do people use to measure the small stuff, like hops or
>chemicals? I use one of those cheesey drug scales (no comments, please)
>with the alligator clip and the quarter-circle ruler-guage thing, but doubt
>it's accuracy.

Oh, I dunno.  It is, after all, intended to measure commodities with
very high cost:weight ratios, for a clientele celebrated for its
intolerance of ripoffs ... ;->

For hops I use a cheesy plastic WeightWatchers food scale I got for
a dime at a yard scale.  For water salts, or anything else requiring
more accurate measurements, I use a shooter's reloading scale.  I
have no idea what these cost these days;  I've had mine 25+ years. 
They're compact and very accurate, but are, unfortunately,
calibrated in grains, so you'll need to pull out the ol' CRC
Handbook of Chemistry and Physics and look up the conversion
factors for the units of your choice.

= Martin A. Lodahl   			Pacific*Bell Systems Analyst =
= malodah at pbmoss.Pacbell.COM       Sacramento, CA       916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids, runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me!  8-)   =


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Date:        19 Sep 91 17:00 -0700
From: mike_schrempp%42 at hp4200.desk.hp.com
Subject:     Dry hopping?


> Drying was novel this year:
> put each variety on a window screen and placed in inside my car, sitting
> in the sun for the day (inside temp 115f).

> Finally, the car smelled great for a week.

> Norm Hardy


WOW! Now I am going to grow my own hops, just for air freshener.

I can picture Norm saying, "Honest officer, I haven't been drinking, I've
just been drying my hops."

Cop replies, "Sure, just step out of the car please..."


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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 21:21:32 PDT
From: polstra!norm at uunet.UU.NET (Norm Hardy)
Subject: Hop Growing (pt 2  in Seattle)

Some interesting responses arrived in my emailbox about my drying system
in the automobile.  I tried to respond to them and two got bounced back.

Two items of interest I would like to relate:  


(1) I allowed 3 vines from each plant to start the climb up the twines.  I
    trained each climber on its own twine so I could evaluate the progress.
    String or twine works better for me than poles because the hops can
    better grab on and more quickly make revolutions to be secure to the
    twine.
    For the Hallertau, there were twin poles each 15 feet high.  At 8 feet
    I strung horizontal twine each about 8 inches from the next one.  As the
    hop came up I trained the vine around one of the lines.  Then I made
    sure the growth continued along the horizontal twine.  Labor intensive
    yes but very effective at avoiding a thick brush of vines.  Also very
    pretty to look at when in full bloom with cones.

(2) A trellis system worked better for the multiple Herzbruchers.  After
    growing for 10 feet, the vines were allowed to meander over the trellis
    with its crosshatched twine about 8 inches apart.  Maintainance was low
    and the thick leaf growth was impressive.  Harvesting was a chore until
    I just cut the twine and let it all come down.


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #728, 09/20/91
*************************************
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