---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Leechdom (MIKE LIGAS)
  Re: Bottles of skunks (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Skunks and Grren Bottles Revisited (Tom Strasser)
  Cajun/King Cooker ("William F. Pemberton")
  Printable Bartenders Guide? ("Brian Kush")
  reply Grolsch Bottles (Brent Ball)
  bottling with honey (Pat Patterson)
  Re: Oxidized beer flavor (larryba)
  hop struck light (The Hop Devil)
  Worms and beer... (GARY MASON - I/V/V PCU - 603-884[DTN264]1503  31-Oct-1991 0832)
  food grade plastics (Jim Culbert)
  Re: Homebrew Digest #752 (October 31, 1991 (tamar more)
  second becks (Russ Gelinas)
  Coriander Ale Recipe (Bob Murphy)
  Re: Hops (Chris Shenton)
  Bottle color (darrylri)
  re: Homebrew laws & Best fermentation volume (darrylri)
  Re: sanitation (Chris Shenton)
  Dr. Beer (Chris Shenton)
  Skunks, worms, and lightstruck beer (STROUD)
  Welding & soldering stainless (Tom Dimock)
  Jack Schmidling, mostly (Norm Pyle)
  Siphons (Dave Rose)
  Canning Wort ("William F. Pemberton")
  Re: Canning wort (Evan McGinnis)
  Canning Wort success (joshua.grosse)
  Liberty Malt Grain Prices (larryba)
  California law and sweet beer (Marty Albini)
  canning wort in jars (Homebrew Digest #752) (Douglas DeMers)


Send submissions to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues!]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1991 16:01 EDT
From: MIKE LIGAS <LIGAS at SSCvax.CIS.McMaster.CA>
Subject: Leechdom

In light of some recent attempts in HD to debunk sound brewing practices as
"momilies" (god I hate that word ... I have no deep seeded resentment against
either of my parents), I thought it might be appropriate to post a few
Leechdoms from the book "Leechdoms, Wortcunning and Starcraft of Early England"
Vol. II. Trying a few of these may be just what the holistic brewers amongst us
need to instill a sense of appreciation of scientific discovery. ;-)

     **************************************************************************
     lxxx. A leechdom in case a man overdrink himself.

     In case a man should overdrink himself; let him drink betony in water
     before his other drink. Again, boil betony and earthgall in clear ale, or
     in such drink as he, "the drunkard," may have to drink, let him drink this
     always before meat. Again, take a swines lung, roast it, and at night
     fasting take five slices always.
     **************************************************************************
     lxvi. Leechdoms for the idiot and the silly.

     Against mental vacancy and against folly; put into ale bishopwort, lupins,
     betony, the southern "or Italian" fennel, nepte, water agrimony, cockle,
     marur ale, and add butter thereto; it will soon be well with him.
     *************************************************************************

Ahhh, to live in an age of innocence. Happy Hallowe'en.


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Date: Wed, 30 Oct 91 12:11:26 -0800
From: hpfcmr.fc.hp.com!hplabs!hpcsos.col.hp.com!hp-lsd.col.hp.com!hplabs!ihlpl!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Re: Bottles of skunks

Daniel Butler-Ehle writes:
>I have heard many arguments about what color glass bottles should
>be in order to avoid light-struck beer.  It is my understanding,
>however, that hardly anything (including beer) reacts with visible
>light; it is the ultraviolet light that reacts with stuff in the
>beer (often said to be the hops, but the jury is still debating) to
>cause that skunky, light-struck taste (as exhibited overpoweringly
>by every imported Pilsner Urquell I've ever had).
>
>The large output of UV is the primary distinction between light from
>such sources as fluorescent lights and the Sun and light from weaker

I'm afraid not.  Fluorescent lights and the Sun produce considerably
more GREEN light than incandescent lights.  It is true that they
also produce more UV, but it is green light (see below) that we
are concerned about when it comes to skunky (or catty - no skunks
in the UK, you see) beer.

>UV producers like incandesent light.  This is evidenced in the
>phenomena Jay Hersh reported to us a few days ago:  (HBD #749)
>
>  "most if not all green and clear bottled beers get light damaged
>   (this can happen as fast as 45 minutes in sunlight or artifical [sic]
>   light like flourescents [sic] seen in beer coolers worldwide) and the
>   damage is so prevelant [sic] that it is difficult to get non-light
>   damaged beers."
>
>However, my current belief (subject to change without notice) is that
>the color of the bottle has nothing to do with it.

Here's a part of a post from Darryl Richman in HBD 609, in which he corrected
me when I made a similar mistake:

>Light struck is defect noticable by a skunky or catty aroma.  This is
>brought on by a transformation in one of the hop constituants under the
>influence of green light.  This compound is converted into a mercaptan,
>one of a class of extremely aromatic compounds.  (Natural gas is
>odorized with a mercaptan, at about 5 ppb.)

I contend that clear and green bottles transmit green light, whereas
brown bottles absorb most of it.  However, if you keep your beer in
the dark until you drink it, you can use any color you have handy.
(Just for the record, I cover my carboys with opaque plastic bags to
prevent the prduction of mercaptan.)

Al.
korz at ihlpl.att.com


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Date: Wed, 30 Oct 91 16:24:22 EST
From: strasser at raj3.tn.cornell.edu (Tom Strasser)
Subject: Skunks and Grren Bottles Revisited


} From: "Daniel Butler-Ehle" <DWBUTLER at MTUS5>
} 
} I have heard many arguments about what color glass bottles should
} be in order to avoid light-struck beer.  It is my understanding,
} however, that hardly anything (including beer) reacts with
} visible light; it is the ultraviolet light that reacts with stuff
} in the beer (often said to be the hops, but the jury is still
} debating) to cause that skunky, light-struck taste (as exhibited 
} overpoweringly by every imported Pilsner Urquell I've ever had).

     I just finished writing an article for our club newsletter on
lightstruck beer and the abilities of different bottles to protect
beer from light.  I thought I'd share only a portion of this with the
digest due to space; anyone wishing a copy of the full article can
mail me directly.
     First of all I would like to refer everyone back to digest
729 and a submission from Steve Stroud.  This article focused my
thoughts on how different bottles protected beer, and I thank Steve
for bringing this article to my attention.  
     The experiment I undertook was to test seven different bottles
in a spectrophotometer to determine the transmission of each bottle
at different wavelengths in the visible spectrum (from 400 to 700
nm).  The bottles test were a clear Samuel Smiths; green Pilsner
Urquell, Molson, and Grolsch; and brown Budweiser, Paulaner short
neck, and the New Paulaner long neck.  It turned out that the 
green and brown bottles all showed the same peaks and valleys in
the transmission spectrum, with the transmission level shifted
slightly depending on the thickness of the bottle.  These results
lead me to believe either these imported beers are bottled in the
US, or the bottle compositions for a given color bottle are very
similar everywhere.  In either case the results I've found would
seem to apply to most if not all beer bottles in the US.  I've
tried to give you an ascii plot below to give you an idea how the
transmission varies for different color bottles:

Transmission
 100%^
     |    ...................................... Sam Smith (clear)
     |    +                  +                    
     |      +          +           +                   
     |        +    +                     +             
  50%|          +                              + Pil Urq (green)
     |                                  *      * Paulaner (brown)
     |                           *                     
     |                        *                        
     |                   *                             
   0 |_____**********________________________________
     UV        Blue    Green Yellow Orange Red       Color
          400         500          600         700   Wavelength(nm)


     To evaluate how these allow lightstruck beer, I got some
technical information posted in the digest:
) HBD729
) From: STROUD%GAIA at sdi.polaroid.com
) 
) I recently came across an article entitled "Photochemistry of
) Beer", published in The Spectrum, Vol. 4, Issue 2, Summer 1991. 
) The author is Denis De Keukeleire, State University of Gent,
) Gent, Belgium.
) 
) From the article...
) The thiol is formed by direct UV-radiation, but also by visible
) light or sunlight.  Since the iso-alpha-acids do not absorb in
) the visible region, the reaction is very probably sensitized by
) riboflavin (Vitamin B2).  Colored substances, such as
) polyphenols, may also affect the light-induced decomposition of
) the iso-alpha-acids (5).  Indeed, it is well-known that 
) dark-colored beer is more susceptible to the development of the
) lightstruck flavor than light-colored beer (6).
)  
     Only ultraviolet light has enough energy to break the iso-
alpha bonds necessary to lightstrike beer, but a color substance as
discussed above can absorb high energy visible light (say <400nm)
and transfer this energy to break the iso-alpha bond.  Although
this method is not efficient, the threshold for the mercaptan
caused by lightstruck beer is less that 1 part per billion! 
     The above article said light less than 500 nm is efficient
enough to be considered in this process.  I think there may be some
reaction at wavelengths slightly higher, but these would be at a
reduced efficiency in causing the lightstruck flaw.  
     In my analysis I consider the portion of light from 400 to 500
nm which is transmitted by each bottle.  So I integrated the
transmission curves over the 400 to 500 nm region for comparison. 
This result could be weighted to favor lower wavelengths which
would be more efficient; however, common light sources (except
direct sunlight and fluorescent light) have a decreasing intensity as
the light approaches 400nm.  Due to the lack of exact weighing, and
competing effects involved, I chose a linear integration for
comparison.  
     The results were that the green Pilsner Urquell bottle blocked
1.5 times more light over this region, while the brown Paulaner
bottle blocked 68 times more light.
     I conclude that brown bottles are significantly more effective
at preventing lightstruck beer, but since the threshold for
detection is so low, keeping all beer bottles in the dark as much
as possible is the answer, NOT just keeping your beer in brown
bottles.

Daniel's questions from yesterday's digest:
} The large output of UV is the primary distinction between light
} from such sources as fluorescent lights and the Sun and light
} from weaker UV producers like incandescent light.  
} ...
} What's this got to do with beer?  What's true for glass lenses is
} true for glass bottles.  The color of the bottle affects only the
} visible light. (That's why it has color in the first place.) 
} Glass, regardless of color, stops most UV.  Therefore, beer in
} brown bottles should be no more or less susceptible to light
} damage than beer in green or even clear bottles.
     Two things to note here, first of all, that 400-500nm light
can transfer energy and cause lightstruck beer as noted above.  The
second thing is that it can be seen above that the trend for
transmission into the UV is that the brown bottles will transmit
far less UV light than the others.  This was true for all 3
different brown bottles I tested, so although the color of the
bottle is only directly indicative of transmission in the visible
spectrum, it can be seen above that in practice it also is
indicative of the relative ultraviolet behavior of different
colored bottles.  (Yes, the green and clear bottles are certainly
not ultraviolet transparent, but it can be seen in the above plot
that they will transmit more UV light than the brown bottles will,
unfortunately I couldn't measure the UV behavior to prove this).
 
} Any comments?  I ain't no physicist, so I'd like to hear from
} someone who knows.  We got any opticians out there?
     Well you got my 2 cents worth.  While I was writing this, this
month's "Ithaca Brew News" just came off the press with a more
complete elaboration on lightstruck beer (as well as a much better
transmission plot).  So the IBU's out there can anxiously await the
arrival of their copy soon.  The rest of you can look for the IBN
at your local newsstand ;-).  (or perhaps I could mail you the text
at your request).

Auf ein neues,
Tom Strasser
strasser at raj5.tn.cornell.edu.......strasser at crnlmsc3.bitnet

} "A pitcher's worth a thousand worts"
If only we could get either of them out over the network!



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Date:     Wed Oct 30 16:57:26 1991
From: "William F. Pemberton" <wfp5p at euclid.acc.Virginia.EDU>
Subject:  Cajun/King Cooker


Anyone know where I can get one of these propane cookers?  I would like
to find one locally (VA/DC area), but mail order would be ok as long as
shipping isn't too high.


Bill


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Date: Wed, 30 Oct 91 15:39:37 PST
From: "Brian Kush" <bkush at us.oracle.com>
Subject: Printable Bartenders Guide?



Could someone e-mail me a printable copy of the Bartenders Guide.  I have no
access to FTP.

Thanks

 --bk

     --------------------------------------------------------------------
     -  Brian Kush                                 Phone: 412.262.5200  -
     -  Sales Consultant                             Fax: 412.262.5311  -
     -  Oracle Express                             vmail: 412.269.3518  -
     --------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: 	Wed, 30 Oct 1991 18:07:12 -0500
From: Brent Ball <staf1282%slcsl.bitnet at utcs.utoronto.ca>
Subject:      reply Grolsch Bottles

Don, I thought that I would respond to your inquiry about reuseable containers
such as Grolsch bottles. I have been using them for over two years without any
problems. As a matter of fact, my local homebrew supplies store here in Kingsto
n sells new rubber seals for these bottles at about 12 cents each. He also sell
s empty Gr. bottles (hey, no fun that way eh?) for about 75 cents each. Only
once so far have I had any carbonation problems (ie. it varied from bottle to
bottle drastically and wasn't a fault in the beer) so I replaced all of the sea
ls and haven't had a problem since. As a matter of fact, Grolsch bottles are
very structurally strong. Last spring I made a batch of Australian Ale and over
 -carbonated it more than just slightly. Nary did a bottle break. The only probl
em was upon opening the beer because it blew the wire closure/porcelain cap cle
ar off the bottles!!!!! This were reinstalled without trouble. But the batch di
d cause may severe finger bruises and pinches during the opening process. In my
opinion Don, drink away and have fun aquiring a new set of bottles!!!!!!!!

Regards, Brent Ball(remember: free advice is worth what
St. Lawrence Collegepay for it)
Kingston, Ont. Can-standard disclaimer-

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Date: Wed, 30 Oct 91 17:57:16 -0700
From: mason at enuxha.eas.asu.edu (Frank W. Mason)

	I have followed the discussion regarding plastic with more than
just a passing interest as I am still very much a beginner (having brewed
only about a half year now) and use a plastic primary.  While I understand
the logic behind a preferences for glass, how is it that the plastic bottling
buckets everyone seems to recommend do not create the same difficulties as
a plastic fermenter?  Is the time of contact too short?  

	Regarding off flavors, all the talk of late has caused more than
a little concern with my own efforts (not all of which I have been crazy 
about).  Since each brewing effort has thus far been different from the
last (too many new styles to try to bother repeating something old), and
since my technique remains basically the same, I wonder if I am not
producing "tainted" brew unknowingly.  I have noticed references in the
past regarding, I believe it was called, doctored beer.  Can someone
direct me to where I might get information on intentionally creating
the most common off-flavors (short of purposely ruining my next
half dozen batches, or so) so as to familiarize myself with that which
I should be trying to avoid? I suspect the very thing that prevents me
from touting my efforts as total successes is some off-flavor that I
unwittingly introducing.

Thanks
Frank

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Date: Wed, 30 Oct 91 20:11:10 -0500
From: patterso at gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Pat Patterson)
Subject: bottling with honey

Has anyone tried using honey instead of (corn) sugar at bottling time?
If so, what amount of standard off-the-shelf clover honey is equivalent
to the usual 3/4 cup of sugar?

Pat

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Date: Wed Oct 30 13:59:49 1991
From: microsoft!larryba at cs.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Oxidized beer flavor

Jack: to get a clear idea of what oxidized beer tastes like, purchase some
bland bottled beer (rhinlander is popular out here, Old Milwaukee should do
fine), open it up, dump a little beer out, get some air in, re-cap, shake
well and store somewhere warm (>100f) for a week.  later, cool to normal
serving temperatures and serve.  It should be pretty awful.  Hopefully
your test beer will never get that bad.

To get a similar example of light struck, get another bottle and simply
set it out in the sunlight for a week or two.  Don't use Miller (in clear
bottles) - that has been doctored to be resistant to light struck.

I believe that the above recipes were used for the last Brew Brothers
Doctored Beer Defects tasting.

I would guess the reason why actively fermenting beer in a carboy is not so
strongly affected by light is that the noxious compound is blown out by the
fermentation gasses.

Good luck.




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Date: Wed, 30 Oct 91 22:22:31 CST
From: hopduvel!john at linac.fnal.gov (The Hop Devil)
Subject: hop struck light

Daniel writes about Bottles of green skunks:

>I have heard many arguments about what color glass bottles should
>be in order to avoid light-struck beer.  It is my understanding,
>however, that hardly anything (including beer) reacts with visible
>light; it is the ultraviolet light that reacts with stuff in the
>beer (often said to be the hops, but the jury is still debating) to
>cause that skunky, light-struck taste ...

Boiling hops alters the Alpha acid groups to Isoalpha acids
(isomerization). These Isoalpha acids are unstable in the presence
of light - a reaction occurs with sulfurous proteins resulting in
3-methyl-2-butene-1-thiol, a mercaptan which is perceptable at the
PPB level.  The frequency of the light that causes this reaction is 520
nanometers, which is blue-green.  UV light is in the 300 nm range. 
Brown bottles typically block ~80% of the 520nm range, most green
glass blocks ~70% at ~450nm but only blocks ~30% at 520nm.  I have
heard that the tinting of the green in beer bottles can alter the
transmission, so your milage may vary.

- --
John, The Hop Devil                       
renaissance scientist and AHA/HWBTA certified Beer Judge 

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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 91 08:33:05 EST
From: GARY MASON - I/V/V PCU - 603-884[DTN264]1503 31-Oct-1991 0832 <mason at habs11.ENET.DEC.COM>
Subject: Worms and beer...

This reminds me of a story my wife tells about her late maternal grandfather.

The old gent was from Ireland (worked on the construction of Shannon airport, 
for example), and was reportedly quite a character.  When I began brewing, 
and being the fanatic that I am (I like it that way, thanks), I sanitized to 
a fare-thee-well.  Upon noticing that, my wife explained how her granddad 
raised fishing worms in wooden barrels in the summer.  In the winter, he 
would rinse (yes, just rinse) a barrel out, and brew his beer in it.  This 
conjures up all kinds of interesting thoughts.  Must have led to some 
interesting names too...Annelid Ale?

Which leads to the old joke about a preacher who put two shot glasses on the 
pulpit - one with water, and one with an alcoholic beverage.  He dropped a 
worm in the water, and it swam furiously.  He then dropped it in the other, 
and it curled up dead.  He then asked for the moral of the story.  From the 
back of the room came a slurred reply - "if you drink alcohol, you'll never 
have worms."

And lastly, since I am rambling...why is it that many (most?) postings I have 
seen, here and on Usenet, that refer to that quintessential Irish dry stout, 
show it misspelled?  Usually with one "n", sometimes with one "s".  I mean, 
if you drink enough of them to affect your spelling, you are looking at 
enough of them to transcribe the name right, no?

Happy Halloween.

Cheers...Gary

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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 91 09:20:55 EST
From: Jim Culbert <culbert at betelgeuse.mit.edu>
Subject: food grade plastics


I tried to send this message on Tuesday (10/29) but it never seemed to show up.
I'm sending it again. Sorry if it shows up twice.

- ----- Begin Included Message -----

Ok I got an idea/question. There's been alot of chatter out there about using
and not using plastic fermenters in the brewing process. Well, I use a 7 gallon
plastic fermenter for the primary fermentation stage. My old one was getting
discolored and scratched so I recently purchased a new one. I just brewed my
first batch with it and have noticed (or at least think I've noticed) that a
particular flavor that used to "characterize" my beer (not one that I
particularly liked) has gone away. So now I'm thinkn' "sheesh am I going to
need a new plastic primary every dozen batches or so?" Then I do the math = big
$ (at least by my standards). So here's the idea/question. If I could line my
primary with a disposable liner then I'd have a "new" plastic primary each time
I brewed. A trash bag would do the trick, but of course it was designed to
carry gross junk and to be dropped from hot air balloons onto suburban roof
tops and not to carry tasty fermenting fluid. Does this matter (I assume it
does)? I know they make plastic bags to hold food (i.e them ziplock bags for
instance). Are these made of food grade plastic? What is a food grade plastic
anyway?


			-Jim

===========================================================================
> Jim Culbert                                                             <
> M.I.T Intelligent Engineering Systems Laboratory                        <
> Room 1-270                                                              <
> Cambridge, Ma. 02139.                                                   <
>									  <
> Phone  (617) 253-7134                                                   <
> e-mail: culbert at iesl.mit.edu                                            <
===========================================================================
* 	    When cows laugh does milk come out their nose?                *
===========================================================================


- ----- End Included Message -----


- ----- End Included Message -----


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Date:         Thu, 31 Oct 91 09:52:00 EST
From: tamar more <ST402676 at brownvm.brown.edu>
Subject:      Re: Homebrew Digest #752 (October 31, 1991

We just put together an order for the next few batches and thought
we'd try making a barley wine. We found a recipe in miller's book that sounds
good, but has a peculiar bit of instructions. I can't remember exactly,
but he seemed to want you to have the secondary fermentor CLOSED 1 gallon
jugs. He doesn't mean that does he? There's still an air lock, right?

If any one has words of wisdom concerning MIller's recipe, or personal
experience with barley wine, and whether it really is any different than
breing any other beer, we'd appreciate the advice.

thanks,
tamar    st402676 at brownvm.brown.edu

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Date:    Thu, 31 Oct 1991 10:03:39 -0500 (EST)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: second becks

  A friend is having a party.  She's getting a keg.  She had a choice of Bass, 
Heineken, Beck's, and Sam Adams lager.  Easy choice, I say (SA!!!!), but most 
of the people at the party will be budswiller drinkers, so she decided Beck's 
would be a good compromise.  She's probably right, but what a shame.  At least
she's not actually getting Bud.

Spencer T: SA lager, SN Pale ale, Guiness!  Stranded on a island beer!  Black
and tan with SNPA and Guiness... whew....

Russ

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Date:    Thu, 31 Oct 1991 8:15:29 MST
From: HEISCH at ZEN.RADIOLOGY.ARIZONA.EDU (Bob Murphy)
Subject: Coriander Ale Recipe

Brian Capouch <brianc at zeta.saintjoe.EDU> asks about brewing with coriander.
Good question, Brian. I have been meaning to send in 'my favorite beer recipe'
for some time now, and it just happens to be a coriander beer. 
I've made it 3 times (out of 40 some batches over the last 3 years)  now and
each has turned out better then the last. 

Bob's Coriander Ale

1 lb light crystal malt, steep for 60 min. at 160 F. then sparge
add 6 lbs. light unhopped malt extract, 
1 oz Cascade hops 5.5 alpha - 60 min
1 oz whole Coriander Seed  - 30 min
1 oz whole Coriander Seed  - 10 min
1 tsp Irish Moss - 10 min
Pitched Chico Ale yeast from a previous batch
Original Gravity 1.040
Final Gravity 1.012

I strain off the hops & coriander seed when transfering to the primary. I use
a 2 stage glass carboy fermentation  with blowoff tube for the first 2 days. 
Leave in the primary for 5 days, and in the secondary for around 10 days.

Each batch has been a bit different, but good.  The coriander isn't real
strong, but is  noticable.  Some people have a hard time identifying it. 
For some reason they all seem to lack much head, maybe the oils in the 
coriander?  Lack of head is not a problem any of my other beers have.
Overall a nice slightly spicy light beer.  Probably good for lawn 
mowing if I had a lawn. Good right away but seems to get better after 3 to 4 
weeks in the bottle.  The flavors blend together a bit more with age.


Bob Murphy
heisch at zen.radiology.arizona.edu

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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 91 10:22:28 EST
From: Chris Shenton <chris at endgame.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Hops

Freshhops is where I got mine -- five different varieties, and I think they
have others, too. I can't remember when they start selling them, so give
'em a call:

  Freshhops
  36180 Kings Valley
  Philomath, Oregon  97370
  (503) 929 2736

 

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Date: Thu Oct 31 06:45:24 1991
From: darrylri at microsoft.com
Subject: Bottle color

(Dare I say it?)  I consider the bottle color to be, if not a momily,
at least irrelevant.  I come to this conclusion as the result of one
experiment, and what I hope is common sense.  The experiment is
one I've carried out numerous times in anticipation of a Dr. Beer
session I've done for the past 3 years for folks taking the Falcons'
BJCP preparatory.  You can take a beer in any bottle, green, brown
or clear, and expose it to the sun for as little as 15 minutes and
be amazed at the strength of the reaction.  I use Budweiser for the
experiment, in long neck bar bottles (heavy, dark brown), even though
Bud has almost no hops.  From this, I conclude that bottle color is
irrelevant for commercial beers:  if they are poorly treated, it
doesn't matter what color the bottle is.  For homebrewers' purposes,
I once again conclude that bottle color matters little, since
we have long been warned about the danger to beer from light, and
hopefully, we store our beer out of the light.  In this case, of course,
bottle color can have no effect either.

		--Darryl Richman


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Date: Thu Oct 31 07:03:22 1991
From: darrylri at microsoft.com
Subject: re: Homebrew laws & Best fermentation volume

> First Question:
> I know there are laws in California governing the amounts that an individual
> can produce. (i.e. Head of household 200 gal or individuals 100 per year.)
> What are the age requirements to homebrew?  Is it legal to ferment your own
> alcoholic beverages under the legal drinking age in your state?

Many states defer entirely to the federal laws, which have the volume limits
you mention.  The federal laws also state that a brewer must be over 21.
It is not unheard of that minors might get away with brewing their own
as long as they remain discreet about it, although the Falcons had to
discourage a young fellow who was obviously underage once, from attending
the meetings.

> Second Question:
> When fermenting in a 5 gal. glass carboy whats the best volume to ferment with?
> I want to leave enough room for the head. I fear that the yeast will stop
> working because of the high alcohol concentration if I have a low-volume
> ferment.
> I know this isn't a FAQ but, is this dumb?
> Are the alcohol concentrations in a primary ferment not even close to
> the max working concentrations for yeast?

There's nothing dumb about this at all.  In fact Miller and AB both practice
this technique, which is usually refered to as high-gravity brewing.  You
can calculate your effective gravity by taking your measured gravity, at
4 gallons say, and multiplying by 4/5 to get the effective gravity at 5
gallons.  (It's close enough to a linear relationship at the gravities
we work to use it as if it were correct.)  If you are trying to formulate
your recipe ahead of time, you can take your predicted OG at 5 gallons
and multiply it by 5/4 to see what effect the concentration at 4 gallons
has.  You can do this with predicted final gravities as well.

The average ale yeast (if there is such a thing), in good condition, ought
to have no difficulties with beers up to 8% alcohol by volume.  This
translates, again on average, to an OG in the 1.080s.  This is not to say
that a beer fermented at that concentration and then watered to match
a lower effective gravity will taste the same as a beer that started out
that way:  in the higher densities, yeast will tend to produce more
esters and aldehydes, and leave a greater sweetness behind.

		--Darryl Richman


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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 91 10:30:04 EST
From: Chris Shenton <chris at endgame.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: sanitation

On Tue, 29 Oct 91 13:47:49 -0800, hpcsos.col.hp.com!hplabs!ihlpl!korz at hp-col.col.hp.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583) said:

Al> Chris writes:
>(The heretic) Marc Rouleau <mer6g at fuggles.acc.Virginia.EDU> writes:
>
>Marc> Last spring I also stopped using bleach.  I don't sanitize anything.
>
>This is fantastic -- it's great to hear all the old myths deflated!
> [...my old foaming at the mouth elided --Chris]

Al> Since there are a lot of beginners reading this forum, I think that
Al> recommending sloppy sanitation is an invitation to brew lactic acid.
Al> Results like that may turn off a lot of potential brewers.  It's not
Al> that hard to use bleach solution and rinse well (I've taken to rinsing
Al> with hot tapwater and then cheap beer, but that's another story) and
Al> the benefits have been documented numerous times.

I have to say I was a little (?) out of hand. I was enthusiastic over the
idea of saving some time, effort, and potential introduction of infections.
However, I must admit that I still bleach everything religiously, except
the yeast-cake carboys ala Father Barleywine.

Encouraging new brewers down the rosey path to infection was not my goal.

There. My confession makes me feel more at ease with myself already. :-)


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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 91 10:47:22 EST
From: Chris Shenton <chris at endgame.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Dr. Beer

A while back, Jaye Hersch [sic :-] mentioned he ran Doktor Bier [sic :-]
sessions to educate people on flavor defects. I'd like to subject myself to
something like this for the same reason.

Jay, or anyone else, could you tell me how you doctor the beer -- with
what, chem sources? I'd be interested in doing something like this with my
local homebrew club, to get a bit more involved in the education aspect.

Thanks.

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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1991 11:03 EST
From: STROUD%GAIA at leia.polaroid.com
Subject: Skunks, worms, and lightstruck beer

Daniel Butler-Ehle writes in HBD # 751:

"I have heard many arguments about what color glass bottles should
be in order to avoid light-struck beer.  It is my understanding,
however, that hardly anything (including beer) reacts with visible
light; it is the ultraviolet light that reacts with stuff in the
beer (often said to be the hops, but the jury is still debating) to
cause that skunky, light-struck taste (as exhibited overpoweringly
by every imported Pilsner Urquell I've ever had)."



The jury is NOT still debating whether or not hops are implicated in skunky
beer aromas, they came in with their vedict a long, long time ago.  Hops were
found to be guilty as charged.

I am not sure where you got the idea that visible light is essentially inert.
There are many, many reactions that occur with visible light.  Plant growth
is the predominant one on this planet.  The skunking of beer is another
example.

While it is true that UV light can cause the light-struck
reaction to occur in beer, visible light does also.  That fact has been
very well documented in the scientific literature.  In a bottle of beer, in
fact, visible light is probably the major source of skunking, since as you
pointed out, beer bottles may filter out most UV radiation.

The mechanism is believed to involve energy transfer from riboflavin (and
perhaps polyphenols), both of which are present in beer and absorb in the 
visible region of the spectrum, to the iso-alpha-acids derived from hops 
which then undergo a free radical fragmentation.  The produced radical
then combines with a thiol radical delivered from sulfur containing  
proteins to form 3-methyl-2-butene-1-thiol, which has been unambiguously
identified as the offending skunk odor in beer.

Brown bottles, do in fact, filter out far more light in the 400-500 nm region
than green bottles do and hence are better for protecting beer.  However, skunky
beer can be found in either color of bottle if exposed to enough light
radiation.

I reprinted an excellent article in HBD about a month ago, which dealt with the
photochemistry of beer and the causes of the lightstruck odor.  It was from 
The Spectrum, Vol. 4, # 2 and was written by Denis de Keukeleire, a 
well-repected photochemist at the University of Ghent, Belgium.  He is 
considered to be an expert in the field of hop photochemistry.  I don't have 
the HBD# at hand that it was printed in (I don't save them), but maybe someone 
else here can speak up with the info.  If not, I'll repost the article in HBD. 



Chip Hitchcock writes in HBD #752:

"HOWEVER, skunkiness in beer has been specifically pinned down to a
photolysis of hop extracts at ~525nm; this is well within visible light
(~450-~750nm)."

Pardon me, but that "magical" 525 nm number is pure BS.  I've seen it repeated
so many times that it appears to have become a classic momily.  Rather then 
keep repeating it ad naseum, I would ask you to justify it with a reference.  I
suspect that you will have difficulty.

Also, Chip writes:

"The rap on green glass is that it blocks light at >~550nm,
so it's useless to prevent this reaction."

This is simply not true.  The rap on green glass is that it transmits part of
the visible light BELOW 500 nm, while brown glass is almost opaque in the 
high-energy part of the visible spectrum.  This is why brown glass is better 
then green.  Again, I will refer you to the article that I reprinted a month 
ago in HBD.

Better living through photochemistry,
Steve Stroud

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Date:         Thu, 31 Oct 91 10:55:13 EST
From: Tom Dimock <RGG at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:      Welding & soldering stainless

I'm glad to be corrected on my mis-information re: fastening stainless.
I learned my welding from someone who tends to only talk about what
he feels is the "best" way to do something, and I failed to check the
effect of that attitude on what I was saying. Mea Culpa.

If you're going to silver solder, you might want to try to find a MAP
or an air-acetylene torch, either of which put out a LOT more heat
than your standard propane torch, which will make the process much
faster and less frustrating.  The MAP torches should be available at
the same store as a propane torch - don't know how the prices compare.
Air acetylene (aka Prest-o-lite) is my favorite, I bought mine at a
going out of business sale of a plumber for next to nothing.  It is
also a GREAT tool for peeling peppers when you're make Chilles
Rellanos (sp) :-).  Whatever heat source you use, best of luck and
happy brewing!

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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 91 08:01:58 MST
From: pyle at intellistor.com (Norm Pyle)
Subject: Jack Schmidling, mostly

All the anti-Schmid-etism around here is starting to wear thin.  I don't
necessarily agree with _all_ that Jack says (read he says a LOT), but I do
agree with some of his motives.  If he manages to get another homebrewer
hooked on brewing, who would have otherwise skipped it, I think that's good.
Like he said, lots of people drink instant coffee, and lots of them like it.
If they can make homebrew that beats Bud (we always seem to pick on Bud) and
they like it, let 'em make it.  If it doesn't stand up to _your_ (you know
who you are) high standards, what's the big deal?  Also, if a new brewer
wants to improve his beer, he'll have every opportunity to do it.  I know we
don't want to promulgate (neat word) "bad" practices in homebrewing to keep
from botching batches, but if there are some steps in the gray area, maybe it
should be mentioned and left at that.

BTW, I'm no fan of commercial advertising.  Maybe we should start a
rec.crafts.brewing.new_products? 8^}

On to beer:  I primed my Christmas brew with honey (typical clover honey
from the local supermart).  I used 1/2 cup boiled in a couple of cups of
water for a 5 gallon batch.  Is this going to do it?  Have others done this?

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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1991 11:12 EST
From: Dave Rose <CHOLM at HUBIO2.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Siphons

	I have followed the debate lately about siphoning technique, and so
far have held my tongue.  But the suggesstion in HBD #752 that the use of
a peristaltic pump might be a good solution was just too much.  For about
$2 you can get a rubber carboy top that has two holes, one for your racking
tube and one to blow in.   These work great and you never have to worry about
the issue again.  Of course, this only works if you use a glass fermenter, and
that is an entirely different can of worms which I don't want to keep open any
longer than necessary.  If  you use a plastic fermentor, you can always use
the water method; I've never tried it, but it's got to make more sense than
blowing all kinds of dough on a pump.  Of course you've got to sanitize the 
tube, the water, your thumbs, etc.
	Is anyone else incredibly tired of the word 'momily?' 

						Dave Rose
					CHOLM at HUBIO2.HARVARD.EDU
	Oh, also: I have never used a blowoff tube and I have never gotten 
headaches from my beer.  Just an observation.  Maybe you should dissolve
one aspirin in each glass of stout......

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Date:     Thu Oct 31 10:40:37 1991
From: "William F. Pemberton" <wfp5p at euclid.acc.Virginia.EDU>
Subject:  Canning Wort


Mark Nightingale asks:

> Has anyone tried canning wort in jars so to sterilize and preserve it for
> future use in making yeast cultures?  How did it work? Does the extreme
> temperatures and pressures of canning effect the taste enough that a starter
> would off flavor you next batch?

Yep, I do this all the time.  I use the canned wort for both yeast
starters and for priming.

As for any off flavors, none that I can notice (of course, from some of
the discussions here I might not be able to tell the difference between
vinegar and beer).

It really makes priming very simple.  I usually pressure can 4 - 1 quart
jars of wort at a time.  At bottling all you have to do is wipe the
outside of the jar with a little sterliant and pour.

I also use it some for starters, but since I culture my own yeast, I
usually just pressure cook some starter along with the slants.

If anyone wants more detailed info, I will be glad to elaborate.

Bill

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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 91 8:46:25 PST
From: Evan McGinnis <bem at NSD.3Com.COM>
Subject: Re: Canning wort

Mark Nightingale writes:

> Okay, another subject:
> 
> 
> Has anyone tried canning wort in jars so to sterilize and preserve it for
> future use in making yeast cultures?  How did it work? Does the extreme 
> temperatures and pressures of canning effect the taste enough that a starter
> would off flavor you next batch?

Yes, I've tried this and it works just fine.  I cooked up some
pale extract with some yeast energizer + hops (a small amount of
whatever I had lying around) and canned into quart mason jars.
(I have a pressure canner)
I then took some yeast sludge from my last batch that had been stored
in the fridge, and pitched into the canned starter.  I had a nice
starter within about 6 hours.  I did try the result before I pitched 
into my wort, and it was unremarkable to say the least, so I wasn't
concerned about off flavors.

 -Evan-

> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Mark Nightingale                       night at tekig7.map.tek.com
> 

- ------------------------------------------------
Evan McGinnis                   3Com Corporation
bem at 3Com.com                    (408)764-6064
- ------------------------------------------------

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Date: Thursday, 31 October 1991 11:39am ET
From: joshua.grosse at amail.amdahl.com
Subject: Canning Wort success


In HBD 752, Mark Nightingale asked if anyone has used Miller's sterile wort
canning methodology, and if the boiling destroyed the wort flavor.

I've used this method VERY successfully.  I use my primary fermenter as my
culturing fermenter, then pour off the wort after the kreuesen has fallen.  I
pitch cool wort on top of the trub, and get great results.  This way, the wort
used in culturing is not used in pitching, so there are no tastable effects
from wort recipe differences.  Thanks to Father Barleywine and Dave Miller,
both.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Josh Grosse                                jdg00 at amail.amdahl.com
Amdahl Corp.                               313-358-4440
Southfield, Michigan

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Date: Thu Oct 31 08:52:54 1991
From: larryba at microsoft.com
Subject: Liberty Malt Grain Prices

The price of grain at Liberty Malt (Seattle, WA) has stopped me
from purchasing there.  However, the quality of beers made with
proper malt for the style - i.e. english malt for english beers,
german malts for german beers - is driving me closer to purchasing
there.  That is my US 2row versions of beers just don't compare to
versions made by other brew brothers using proper malts.

If the $1.55/lb scares you off, note that a 50lb purchase drops the
price to $1.10/lb.  A 250lb grain card (I assume you don't want all
that grain at once) drops the price to $1/lb.  Although their prices
still don't come close to brew-club prices ($.50/lb), given that a
typical batch o beer takes 8lb of grain it is still dirt cheap.

Anyone up here in Seattle want to split a 250lb grain card?  I would
front for 75 lb worth...


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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 91 9:49:48 PST
From: Marty Albini <martya at sdd.hp.com>
Subject: California law and sweet beer

> From: 2121dtam%ucsbuxa at hub.ucsb.edu (Marc Tamsky)
> 
> First Question:
> 
> I know there are laws in California governing the amounts that an individual
> can produce. (i.e. Head of household 200 gal or individuals 100 per year.)
> 
> What are the age requirements to homebrew?  Is it legal to ferment your own
> alcoholic beverages under the legal drinking age in your state?

	Yes, and you can even drink it. Private individuals
can serve it as well, so long as no money changes hands.
That's how the ABC officer who talked to our club explained
it; what someone might get hassled for is another matter.
 
> When fermenting in a 5 gal. glass carboy whats the best volume to ferment with?
> 
> I want to leave enough room for the head. I fear that the yeast will stop
> working because of the high alcohol concentration if I have a low-volume
> ferment.

	Most any yeast can handle 8% by weight. The gallon 
or so you need to remove to avoid blowing foam from a five 
gallon carboy would only increase the gravity by 25%. With 
the 3.5 gallons used in this batch, the gravity should be 
about 43% higher. If you have anything but a barleywine or 
doppelbock in the fermenter, and a reasonable yeast for the 
style, I wouldn't worry about it.

	It's messy, but letting the primary blow foam will
accomplish the same thing, without having to top off later.
Use an adequate sized blow-off tube, and don't leave hops
floating in the primary to plug it (dry hopping works best in
the secondary or keg anyway).

> After 1.5 weeks in secondary, I primed with 1 cup corn sugar and bottled.
> 3 weeks later the batch still has a sugary taste but carbonation is ok.
> 
> Any ideas?

	A cup is too much for a five gallon batch; this 
should result in a very fizzy brew, which wouldn't be 
appropriate for the style. After 3 weeks, it should be done 
carbonating, but if the carbonation is ok, my guess is it 
isn't. If the beer isn't as fizzy as Budmillob, let it sit at 
room temperature for another two weeks or so, then try it 
again. The sweetness should be gone, leaving lots of little 
tiny bubbles in its wake.
- --
______________________________________Marty Albini___________
"Out on the Mira the people are kind; they treat you to
homebrew and help you unwind/ and if you come broken they see
that you mend, and I wish I was with them again."--Allister
MacGilivray
phone    : (619) 592-4177
UUCP     : {hplabs|nosc|hpfcla|ucsd}!hp-sdd!martya
Internet : martya at sdd.hp.com 
US mail  : Hewlett-Packard Co., 16399 W. Bernardo Drive, San Diego CA 92127-1899 USA

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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 91 09:33 PST
From: dougd at uts.amdahl.com (Douglas DeMers)
Subject: canning wort in jars (Homebrew Digest #752)

In Homebrew Digest #752 (October 31, 1991), Mark Nightingale 
(night at tekig7.map.tek.com) writes:

 >Has anyone tried canning wort in jars so to sterilize and preserve it for
 >future use in making yeast cultures?  How did it work? Does the extreme 
 >temperatures and pressures of canning affect the taste enough that a starter
 >would off flavor your next batch?

I've done it;  it worked just fine for me.  I used the canning method
described in Miller's book.  The first time I used quart for starter, I
poured off the "beer" and only used the slurry at the bottom for
pitching.  If you have concerns about tainting the flavor of your
batch, perhaps one might consider using only the slurry.

Others have suggested that canned starter might be a perfect use for
old extract - which might not make really good beer.  In that case I'd
_definitely_ pour off the "beer".  Otherwise, if the starter "beer" and
the target wort are compatible, I now just dump the whole thing in.
For compatibility sake, the canned wort I make is pale, so I can use it
with all styles.

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #753, 11/01/91
*************************************
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