---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re:Bandaid (tm) beer (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Homebrew Popularity & Cloviness (Jay Hersh)
  Bag It (C.R. Saikley)
  Hey,  Jackie baby - chill out. (larryba)
  priming with honey (J.N.) Avery <JAVERY at BNR.CA>
  doctored beer (Loren Carter)
  Skunks, honey, ramblings (Norm Pyle)
  Breathing Life Into Beer (MIKE LIGAS)
  Breakfast of Champions (MIKE LIGAS)
  Re: Homebrew Digest #754 (November 04, 1991) (Steve Thornton)
  Counterflow chillers (BAUGHMANKR)
  Pitching Temperature (Matthias Blumrich)
  Get yer VCRs ready... (Kurt Swanson)
  Request for high-temp ale yeast... (Kurt Swanson)
  Blow-off: Bad, Good, or OWT? (John DeCarlo)
  Re: Lactose (John DeCarlo)
  Where is Keller's ?? (Joe Freeland)
  Skunks sighted at 520 nanometers!, AHA competitions, metabolism of ethanol (The Hop Devil)
  Plastic pressure kegs (Larry Johnson)
  Wyeast #1007 Info (loc)
  infection (Russ Gelinas)
  Re: Saccharin (Chris Shenton)
  re: Serious Business (darrylri)
  Several Things re: HBD 756 (joshua.grosse)
  my $.02 on light damage (dave ballard)
  Blowoff (Norm Pyle)
  Garlic Beer (Richard Stueven)
  Re: Brew Video (Richard Stueven)
  Re: Brew Video (Richard Stueven)
  Sawing Kegs (KCDESCH)
  Re: Wy dyd my Wyeast wyther? (Richard Stueven)
  UV light (John Pierce)


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[Please do not send me requests for back issues!]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Nov 91 09:33:34 -0800
From: hpfcmr.fc.hp.com!hplabs!hpcsos.col.hp.com!hp-lsd.col.hp.com!hplabs!ihlpl!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Re:Bandaid (tm) beer

B^2 asks:
>   I have a slight problem, two of my last three batches have turned out
>with a, as my brew partner calls it, "bandaid" flavor, I think it's a
>bitter flavor but not a hop bitterness.

Bill wisely included the recipes *and* fermentation temperatures, but
my possible source for the "Bandaid (tm)" flavor/smell is, alas, unrelated
to these two pieces of information.  The off flavor/smell is due to phenolics.
According to the Zymurgy troubleshooting issue, Troubleshooting chart, it
can be caused by:

Chlorinated (tap) water, wild yeast, bacteria, oversparging of mash, boiling
grains, cleaning compound residue, plastic hoses and gaskets, and defective
bottlecap linings.

I ommitted a few causes listed in the Troubleshooting Chart from the
troubleshooting issue (Vol 10, #4, Special issue 1987) because I disagree
with them (so there!) and have included a few which I think are less likely
to cause the particular flavor with which you are concerned (bottlecap
linings, oversparging and boiling grains, specifically) but this is just
intuition.  I have not personally had this problem, so I'm afraid my
suggestions are based upon reading, combined with intuition, but for what
it's worth, I think that the most likely sources are:

1. chlorinated sanitizing solution residue (solution: rinse better) and

2. chlorinated water (solution: boil all the water you are using in the beer).

Al.
korz at ihlpl.att.com


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Date: Tue, 05 Nov 91 18:08:58 GMT
From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu>
Subject: Homebrew Popularity & Cloviness


A general comment, not part of any previous debate...

Jack sez:
>I used to see the owner of the local 
 brew shop standing outside his shop watching cars go by, every time I passed 
 and I just assumed the hobby was as unpopular as it ever.

Poor guy. Don't know what he's doing wrong. My friend Jeff owns the Modern
Brewer here in Cambridge, Ma. He's been open a little over a year and he's
doing really good business right now, even with the bad economy. My observation
is that the growth in interest in micro-brewed beers and homebrewing is very
strong. Of course these are my observations here in Beantown (and a few other
areas I've traveled to, your mileage may vary..)

> My target was and still is all those people out there that do not even know 
 that one can make drinkable beer at home.  Let's face it, most of them like 
 Bud.

My personal experience is that few people go from Bud to homebrew. Typically
they "discover" microbrews or imports and their tastes change before they make
the leap to brewing themselves. Again your mileage may vary.. (hey let's
introduce a new acronym for this... YMMV)


> From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu>
> 
> >The presence of phenolics which the clove-like.....
> 
> BINGO!
>
> The second most recent batch (just about drinking age now) has precisely that 
> taste and aroma.  Aside from that anomily, it is possibly the best tasting 
> beer I have ever made.  It also happens to be my first all (commercial) grain 
> batch and drinking it has become almost a mystical experience.
> 
> Where did those bloody cloves come from?   I used 6 row barley but the same 
> guy who told me that oxidation causes a cidery taste sold me the "barley".  
> He couldn't possibly have sold me wheat malt, could he?


Jack I'm not sure what to make of this reply, I think you may have
misunderstood. The cloviness comes from the YEAST  not the wheat malt..., 
Red Star Ale, which you said you used to use until recently if I read this right,
(which I stopped using long ago after a friend got the banana beer that tasted 
more like bananas than bananas do..) is reputed to produce clove flavors under 
certain fermentation conditions (I don't know what these are supposed to be).


 - JaH

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hopfen und Malz, Gott erhalts


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Date: Tue, 5 Nov 91 10:32:35 PST
From: grumpy!cr at uunet.UU.NET (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: Bag It


From: Brent Ball <staf1282%slcsl.bitnet at utcs.utoronto.ca>

>after about 5 days or so I transfer my brew from the plastic
>primary pail to a glass carboy secondary to finish up. This is a clear glass
>vessel and it sits in the corner of my sunlit kitchen (no direct sunlight
>though). Am I doing light damage to my beer in the process of making it? Should
>my glass secondary be relocated to my dark (and bit damp) basement or could
>I simply loosely cover the carboy by placing over it a big(D size) photographic
>paper "light resistant" bag (this should attenuate all UV)? 

What to do if you don't have a convenient dark storage place for your
fermenting beer?

Take a standard brown grocery bag and cut a hole in the center of the bottom.
Make this hole slightly larger than the neck of your carboy. Invert the bag
and place it over your five gallon carboy, it's a perfect fit.

I'm sure if you put the carboy in direct sunlight in Southern California (;-)
you could still damage the beer, but under "normal" circumstances you should
be OK. If you want added protection, use two bags.

Cheers,
CR

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Date: Tue Nov 05 10:36:09 1991
From: larryba at microsoft.com
Subject: Hey,  Jackie baby - chill out.

Not everyone on the HBD is your nemesis.  Either you are pulling
peoples cords just to see what kind of boing they make or you are
being a bit too defensive.

Anyway, my recipe for oxidized doctored beer was a attempt in helping
you understand the oxidized flavor/aroma in beer so you would be
better equiped to detect it in your homebrew beer.  I don't necessarily
think that you will detect oxidation in your "mishandled" beer.  Why?
Because it is my belief that if you have
active yeast in your beer, oxidation may not be an issue.  Beer that
is primed and bottled has live yeast in it.  Live yeast is very
reductive (?) and chews up the oxygen + reduces the oxidized
components.  I have heard that damaged beer can be revived by adding
fresh wort, yeast and letting it re-ferment. I think that is what
happens for many home brews: they are harsh at first (green?) and
then as they age they mellow out.  I think it is the yeast doing it's
magic. Comment, Dave Rose, George Fix?

Anyway, I lager in the refer (ales and lagers) until the beer is
fairly clear.  I then keg and artifically carbonate.  There is little
or no yeast activity at this point.  If I am not careful about O2
infiltration I get a distinct "stale" taste/smell to my beers (sample
of 2 out of 17 so far).  I have never had that happen with bottled
homebrew or kegs I primed. Typically, my beers are very drinkable/clean
as soon as I carbonate them.  Aging helps, but not nearly as much as
it helped my old, sloppy, bottled extract beers of long ago.

The point is that you may well be right that oxidation is not an
issue for homebrews if the air infiltration is not grotesque and
there is a secondary ferment in the bottle.  It probably depends upon
the gestalt of your brewing setup.  What works for you might not work
in all cases.  Knowing the defects and what the underlying causese are
can help you determine what is important for your setup (or videos!)

As for skunk beer in Miller bottles: I trust you were kidding me...
The beer has been doctored, not the glass!


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Date:        5 Nov 91 14:27:00 EST
From: Joel (J.N.) Avery <JAVERY at BNR.CA>
Subject:    priming with honey

I posted an article in the last week of September about priming
with honey when someone else was asking.  Anyways, for a 5 US
gallon batch, I use about 3 or 3.5 oz of liquid honey, but I
tend to prefer a lighter carbonated beer when compared to my
homebrewing buddies.  You are better off brewing a flatter beer
the first time, and then adjusting the amount of honey you use.

Make sure you boil the honey with some water to kill off any
live cultures that might exist in the honey.  It also makes the
priming "sugar" mix better with the beer.  I just pour the boiled
honey and water into my priming pail shortly after starting my
siphon from the carboy.  Never had a problem.

javery at bnr.ca

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Date: Tue, 5 Nov 91 12:34:07 -0700
From: Loren Carter <lcarter at claven.idbsu.edu>
Subject: doctored beer

A while back someone(I think it was Chris Shenton) asked about doctoring 
beer in order to train judges etc. 

Our club has done this several times in the past with good results.

In addition to skunky(light struck) and oxidized beers mentioned in HBD we 
have used the following:

          Metalic taste       FeSO4
										sweet taste         sugar
          acidic              lactic acid or vinegar
          alcoholic           vodka
          medicine taste      listerine
          phenolic            phenol
          butterscotch        diacetyl(use butter or buterscotch flavoring)
          ester flavor        bannana oil

In place of the listerine and the phenol last time we used oil of cloves.  
This seemed to work as well or better than the listerine and phenol and is 
easier to get than the phenol for most people.

Hope this helps.
Loren Carter
Chemistry Department
Boise State University
Boise, Idaho

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Date: Tue, 5 Nov 91 09:19:24 MST
From: pyle at intellistor.com (Norm Pyle)
Subject: Skunks, honey, ramblings

To Jeff Frane:

When I read this,"Everytime I sit in the courtyard at Produce Row, sipping a
pint of Sierra Nevada I try to set it in someone's shadow. I'm the nervous
type.", I thought, "geez, he _is_ the nervous type".  Then I realized that I
do the very same thing, almost subconsciously.  Of course, I consider myself
perfectly NORMal.

To Pat Patterson:

Here's some results from the honey-priming experiment I did:
I didn't want to reply until I had some results.  I used 1/2 cup of clover
honey from the grocery store, and it worked great.  I just boiled it in a
pint or two of water and primed as usual.  A week later I've got plenty of
carbonation and no off-flavors.  I wouldn't use more than 1/2 cup.

To everyone:

Let's get off the old flames and on to new ones, and have some fun.

Norm

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Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1991 16:20 EDT
From: MIKE LIGAS <LIGAS at SSCvax.CIS.McMaster.CA>
Subject: Breathing Life Into Beer

> From: Dave Rose <CHOLM at HUBIO2.HARVARD.EDU>

>>	Chris Shenton chimes in:
>> Seems to me blowing air from your lungs and mouth into the carboy
>> isn't much better than getting your mouth over the racking tube. I'd think
>> you'd introduce all kinds of ugliness into the wort.

>	This is a reasonable expectation, but it turns out to be wrong.  I work
> in a yeast lab, and we routinely innoculate cultures by blowing yeast out
> pipettes into culture tubes; by blowing some bubbles in the culture, the yeast
> get mixed up.  This absolutely does not lead to contamination ....

I'd be quite surprised Dave if you use unplugged sterile pipettes to dispense
your yeast. The fibrous plug found in the top of culturing pipettes is tightly
packed and adsorbant enough to stop potential microbial contamination carried
by microscopic particles dispelled with each humid breath.

> apparently, breath is sterile.

If you've ever done animal cell culture or bacterial culture using media much
richer than liquid malt or malt/agar you'd know, from painful experience, that
breath is not sterile.

> In short, breathing into the carboy is not a problem, as long as you don't
> drool into it or something.

I'd tend to agree with this without any contradiction to my above comments. The
media conditions must be hospitable to potential contaminants and acidic hopped
wort may not be well received by the types of microbes in your breath.
Furthermore, no homebrewer's wort is "sterile" but this poses no problem if
enough healthy yeast are pitched to outgrow other life forms. I'm still extra
careful anyways. It helps me RDWHAHB. ;-}

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Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1991 16:22 EDT
From: MIKE LIGAS <LIGAS at SSCvax.CIS.McMaster.CA>
Subject: Breakfast of Champions

> From: Tom Dimock <RGG at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>
> --> Warning! This post is based on "old wives tales" backed up by
> experience! On the other hand, it does seem to work for me....  <--
>
> Hangovers seem to have at least three components: dehydration, Vitamin B
> imbalance, and toxins (fusel oil, for example).  The first two you can
> deal with by washing down a fairly large dose of Vitamin-B complex with
> lot of water before retiring.  When bladder pressure gets you up, drink
> more water.  The toxins you can only deal with by not ingesting them
> to begin with, which means not brewing them into the beer if possible.
> As to what by-products contribute to hangover, and how much, I'd guess
> that that is highly specific to the individual?  Anybody know any facts
> in this area??

>From my simple understanding of the phenomenon, the main culprit is dehydration
with some credit going to vasodilation in the skull. Both alcohol and fusels
along with some amines are the cause. The liver, that wonderful detoxification
centre, requires the B-complex to provide cofactors for various detox pathways.
The high demand for B-vitamins results more in a shortage than an imbalance.
I've had better luck taking time-released B-complex prior to indulgence rather
than after but either way will help. As mentioned above, plenty of water is
still the best treatment since it rehydrates the spinal fluids and helps to
flush ones system of toxins. Taking a teaspoon of fructose rich honey along with
water also provides the liver with a good energy source.

However, there's always the breakfast of champions....coffee and tylenol. ;-}

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Date:         Tue, 05 Nov 91 16:28:55 EST
From: Steve Thornton <NETWRK at HARVARDA.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Homebrew Digest #754 (November 04, 1991)

On Mon, 4 Nov 1991 01:00:11 mst someone said:
>
>The essential oil(s) in coriander seeds are quite volatile.  I suspect that
>if you heat the extract up enough to drive off the alcohol from the
>vodka, you'll cause much of the coriander oils to evaporate.  You'd end

 .....much other good sense about coriander seeds deleted...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you sure that _seeds_ were specified in
the recipe? Coriander seeds have a _very different_ flavor from the
leaves, which are yet again different from the root. Three completely
different spices from one incredibly groovy plant. I can't remember the
recipe that was given, but the leaf flavor is the most common one in
most forms of cooking (aka chinese parsley). Off the top of my head, I
would think I'd prefer the leaf flavor (common in Mexican and Indian cooking)
in beer to the seeds. But then, maybe I'm completely off base.

Steve T.

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Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1991 16:45 EDT
From: BAUGHMANKR at CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU
Subject: Counterflow chillers

Greetings friends and neighbors:

I've been quiet enough lately.  Guess I should put my two cents in on 
the chiller discussion.  I'm not trying to be testy.  Just want to 
make sure things remain balanced. 

And please, let's don't ever say "m_m__y" again.  It's a stupid word 
and besides, my Mom wouldn't even think of making beer!

>While on the subject, I'd like to add a couple more reasons that I feel the
>immersion chiller is better than the counterflow type:

>1. cleaning is easier on an immersion chiller and you can see how clean
>the surface that contacts the sweet wort is,
>
>2. sanitation is easier - all you have to do is dunk it in the boiling
>wort before turning on the cooling water (you may also be able to sanitize
>a counterflow similarly, but intuatively, I suspect that by the time
>the hot wort is at the exit end of the chiller, even with the cooling
>water off, it has dropped below 180F which does little to sanitize the
>tubing, and

Actually I find sanitation and cleaning of the counterflow chiller to 
be just as easy and effective as sanitizing the immersion type.  Drain 
the chiller body of cooling water after a round of brewing and siphon 
boiling hot water through the empty chiller until the boiling hot 
water exits the bottom.  Store it dry.  

Before the next brewing session, I generally siphon some of my just-
prepared, ever-present solution of 1 Tbsp. clorox to 1 gallon of water 
sterilant solution through the copper and let it sit for 20-30 
minutes.  That's not enough to corrode the copper, BTW.  Then just to 
make EXTRA sure that everything's sterile, I start my chilling session 
with the chiller dry, so that immediately after the short clorox soak, 
the copper comes into contact with boiling hot wort.  If boiling hot 
wort is good enough to sterilize the outside of immersion chillers, 
it's good enough to sterilize the inside of counterflow chillers, too, 
unless I'm missing something. :-)

>3. I, personally, would not want to start a siphon (with my mouth (besides
>the sanitation risk) or by other means (turkey baster, etc.)) on a 170+ F
>liquid!

Me neither.  That's why I (a) either let the clorox water that's 
inside the chiller start the siphon or (b) insert a small 2" piece of 
3/8" tubing into the end of the siphon hose and suck on it.  When the 
wort approaches the mouth, pinch the hose shut, remove the tubing, and 
direct the flow to the fermenter.

I do like the fact that the counterflow chiller chills the wort very 
quickly.  One drop of wort goes from 212 degreess to 70 degrees in 
about 6 seconds and then comes into immediate contact with the yeast.  
Not much time for a bacterial infection there.

Whichever chiller you decide to use -- and in the end it is a matter 
of personal choice -- I do agree that it's the time-saving features of 
the chiller that I enjoy the most.  But I happily accept the 
associated reduced risk of contamination and better cold-break.

While on the subject of time-saving, again, I might as well make the 
point that the counterflow chiller saves more time especially if you 
make a habit of siphoning into the fermenter anyway.  With the 
counterflow, you can start siphoning into the fermenter immediately.  
With the immersion, you have to wait 20 or 30 minutes for the wort to 
chill before you can begin the siphon. 

A nit-picking point, I admit.  But, hey, at least I'm not arguing 
about whether oxidation is a real phenomenon.  The first 3 or 4 
batches of beer that I kegged were deep-sixed because I couldn't tell 
whether it was beer or some sort of weird sherry.

As for initiating homebrewers into our hobby,  I emphasize the 
following:

Use good ingredients, good recipes, and good clean equipment.  Make up 
a 4 or 5 gallon batch of sterilant and soak everything that touches 
the cooled beer in it for 20 or 30 minutes.  Keep racking to a 
minimum.  When it's time to rack, treat your beer like your lover.  Be 
gentle with her.  Don't abuse her.  Don't slap her around or dump her 
into bed, er, I mean, the carboy.  Ease her into it.   Talk nice to 
her.  Let her know you care. 

See!  That wasn't difficult was it?  Homebrewing is easy. 

Hey, Darryl, you radical!  You've gone from "Eunuchs" to Microsoft and 
MSDOS!!!  My how the mighty have fallen!  Is there any hope left for 
us all?  Where is the truth?  What is realty?

Cheers ya'll,

Kinney Baughman                      |   Beer is my business and
baughmankr at conrad.appstate.edu       |   I'm late for work. 


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Date: Tue, 5 Nov 91 20:23:06 -0500
From: Matthias Blumrich <mb at Princeton.EDU>
Subject: Pitching Temperature

Hi.  Last night I brewed up some beer and when I had everything in the
carboy the temperature was 85 degrees.  Since Papazian sais the pitching
temperature should be about 70 - 75 degrees I waited till the next
morning, but I had trouble relaxing.  It seems to me, in retrospect,
that it would have been ok at that temperature.  So for the future,
what is considered the outside pitching temperature for ale yeast and
for lager yeast (if it makes a difference)?
 - Matt -

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Date: Tue, 5 Nov 91 21:48:14 CST
From: kswanson at casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Kurt Swanson)
Subject: Get yer VCRs ready...

Zymurgy special issue, 1991, pg. 60, column 2:
"Michael Jackson... Jackson's TV documentary series, "The Beer Hunter," is
scheduled for rebroadcast on the discovery channel later this year."

In the section, all the issue's contributor's pictures are shown...

not exactly what I pictured of Dave Miller...

EXACTLY what I pictured of Jean-Xavier Guinard...

And get a load of that Darryl Richman... heh heh ;-)
- -- 
Kurt Swanson, Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science,
Northwestern University.  kswanson at nwu.edu

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Date: Tue, 5 Nov 91 21:58:01 CST
From: kswanson at casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Kurt Swanson)
Subject: Request for high-temp ale yeast...

Does anyone know of a quality ale yeast that performs well at higher
temperatures (above 70F)??  Of course all do, but I'm looking for one that
doesn't produce buckets o' diacetyls, esters, fusels, methional, etc...
- -- 
Kurt Swanson, Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science,
Northwestern University.  kswanson at nwu.edu

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Date: Wednesday, 6 Nov 1991 09:09:58 EST
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Blow-off: Bad, Good, or OWT?

>How come Baderbrau pumps the chilled wort into a fermenter and
>30 days later drains it off to be filtered and bottled?  They do
>not seem to be concerned about the foam falling back in.  This
>is the beer that Jackson proclaimed the best American Pilsner.

I am still convinced that I have read of a study that compared a
blow-off with a conventional fermentation, and found the blow-off
wort/beer to be deficient in some molecules that are considered
good in beer.  I could swear this was done at UC Davis.  However,
I can't find a reference, but some of my Beer & Brewing books are
on loan.  So, I have to be content with a personal belief that
blow-off makes your beer marginally less tasty.

Anyway, I bring this up to the net to see if anyone can find a
thorough study that either supports or refutes my belief.

Thanks.

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
           (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Wednesday, 6 Nov 1991 09:10:30 EST
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re: Lactose

>From: Jim Grady <jimg at hpwald.wal.hp.com>

>Some beer/winemaking supply shops sell lactose as an
>unfermentable sugar that can be added to get a residual
>sweetness in wines & I presume beers.  I have never used it so I
>would ask my supplier or seek out the advise of someone who has.
>Has anybody out there used or heard of using lactose?

A brewer friend of mine regularly uses lactose in his stouts to
get them sweeter, so it is fairly common.

A caveat!  Please warn your guests that you have done so, in case
one of them may be lactose-intolerant.  It is no fun for them, as
they will usually not suspect beer of containing lactose and not
prepare properly.

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
           (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Wed, 6 Nov 91 08:30:06 -0600
From: j_freela at hwking.cca.cr.rockwell.com (Joe Freeland)
Subject: Where is Keller's ??


Brewers,

I have recently had problems contacting Keller's
Brewhaus in Oklahoma City.  The numbers listed
for ordering and advice lines have been disconnected.
Anyone out there have a clue about what their story is ??
If so send me email, I have some rather urgent ordering
that needs to be done.  Thanx.

Joe

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Date: Wed, 6 Nov 91 9:08:58 CST
From: hopduvel!john at linac.fnal.gov (The Hop Devil)
Subject: Skunks sighted at 520 nanometers!, AHA competitions, metabolism of ethanol


Re: AHA competitions

Someone commented that swing-top bottles were unacceptable at AHA
sanctioned competitions, and recommended 12 or 16 oz. bottles.  I
would like to suggest that for competitions, please use nice clean
unscratched 12 oz. standard longnecks.  It is ok to use 10 to 14 oz.
brown or green bottles (please do spectrophotometer readings to test
for light blockage between 423-587 nanometers ;-) but it is much
better to use the standard bottles, it makes life easier for
everyone.  I have directed an AHA state competition and a judged a 
coupla AHA nationals and its makes life easier if the bottles are 
all uniform.  I talked to Dave Welker (AHA national director) about 
this and he had to disqualify some good brews because they were out
of spec re: the bottles, and I know it really bothered him.  Read
Zymurgy Vol. 14, no. 1 (spring 1991) article on shipping beer to
competitions ("Fragile - This Side Up" pg. 27 - Russ Wigglesworth).
If you send your prettiest bottles it helps!

RE: Hangovers
Alcohol gets converted (by alcohol dehydrogenase) to acetaldehyde,
which is sickening, it builds up because alcohol is converted to
acetaldehyde faster than acetaldehyde is broken down.  The
acetaldehyde probably causes the majority of problems (along with
fusel oils) it causes direct cell damage and is a free radical.  
L-Cystine scavenges the free radicals off of the acetaldehyde 
and in single blind experiments (unpublished observations) it seems 
to alleviate the 'edge' of a hangover when given with lots of 
water and b vitamin complex prior to processing the majority of 
the alcohol consumed. Interested parties ;) are refered to 
_Molecular and Cellular Mechanisms of Alcohol and Anesthetics_ 
Annals of the NYAS, 1991.

Stroud wants to know about the specific 520nm light damage done to beer,
Boy, did I have to dig around to find where I got that from!
I would welcome references to something newer (it may have been
posted recently but mail has been sporatic), but I got my info
partly from Michael Tierney, a Ph.D. chemist and homebrewer, who
wrote an article about the chemical reaction in Zymurgy vol 12, no 3
1989.  The information may be dated, and I would like to be current!
If I can get enough info to interlibrary loan new articles please
let me mail me. You mentioned 400-500nm, gee I was only out of range
by 20 nanometers!  

excuse spelling errors, I've been evaluating Sierra Nevada Bigfoot.
- -- 
John, The Hop Devil                       
renaissance scientist and AHA/HWBTA certified Beer Judge 
Help, my kraeusen fell and I can't hop up!

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Date: Wed, 6 Nov 91 09:52:45 EST
From: millbrook!lrj at fibercom.com (Larry Johnson)
Subject: Plastic pressure kegs

In HBD #755, des at swindon.swindon.ingr.com (Desmond Mottram) writes:

>Plastic pressure barrels with cheap CO2 injectors and cylinders are very
>common here in the UK. Can't you get them in the States? Ask your home brew
>supplier if they are made or imported. If you get no joy, I suggest you
>import them yourself and make a small killing!

The Saffron Superkeg, a 6+ US gallon plastic keg with an (optional?) cap
for CO2 cylinders and a pressure relief valve, is distributed in the US
by Crosby & Baker.  Your homebrew store should be able to order it from
them.

It happens that I kegged my first batch in one last night, so I can't
give any practical results yet.  However, be warned, as I was, that such
kegs are designed for British "real ale" levels of carbonation, i.e.,
very low.  The Superkeg is designed for at most 15 psi, which is the
nominal level at which the relief valve opens.  Since I'm drinking my
last batch (a porter) by keeping the bottles at room temperature, and
letting the beer sit a few minutes after opening to allow it go flat
(it tastes best to me like that), I don't expect a problem.  "Your
mileage may vary."

(Note: I am not affiliated with Crosby & Baker.)

- --
Larry Johnson
FiberCom, Inc.                              INTERNET: lrj at fibercom.com
P.O. Box 95093                                  UUCP: uunet!fibercom!lrj
Raleigh, NC 27625-5093                         PHONE: +1 919-790-9257

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Date: Wed, 6 Nov 91 09:43:22 EST
From: loc at bostech.com
Subject: Wyeast #1007 Info

A couple of months back there were a couple of 
postings regarding bacteria found in a Wyeast
package of German Ale yeast #1007.  Being that
I use this particular yeast a lot and have had
no problems with it I had my homebrew shop check
into the report and see if they could find 
anything out from the manufacturer. 

They finally got a change to call Wyeast regarding
the reports about an infected batch of #1007.  
According to Wyeast they have not had any reports
of an infected batch of yeast.  They do inspect each
batch, but for obvious reasons not each package.
They do take these reports seriously and are looking
into the matter.

So, if and when I get any more info I will post it.

Still not worrying,
Roger L.

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Date:    Wed, 6 Nov 1991 10:18:02 -0500 (EST)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: infection

  First, R. Al M. talked about some "ring-around-the-bottle".  Most likely
it's bacteria, not mold.  I had the same thing once and had it checked
at my wife's bio lab, and it was bacteria, 'though they couldn't say what
kind without more (ie. $$$) tests.  All new plastic cured it.

  Thomas M. got "possible food poisoning" from his infected wort.  Yes, it's
possible, but more likely you just picked up a flu bug.  There's a bug out
now (I'm just over it, knock on wood), that mimics food poisoning pretty
well, with stomach pains that are *unbelievable*.  In the past I got what
I thought was food poisoning after eating at a restaurant, went to the
emergency room, and found 5 other people with the same symptoms, who hadn't
eaten at the restaurant.  The culprit?  Flu. The hospital folk said 
"stomach distress" cases are much more likely to be the flu than food 
poisoning.  So it could have been FP, but my experience says it's not likely,
for whatever that's worth.

Russ G.
OPAL/ESP
UNH

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Date: Wed, 6 Nov 91 10:20:38 EST
From: Chris Shenton <chris at endgame.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Saccharin

On Tue, 5 Nov 91 9:49:38 EST, Jim Grady <jimg at hpwald.wal.hp.com> said:

Jim> Some beer/winemaking supply shops sell lactose as an unfermentable
Jim> sugar that can be added to get a residual sweetness in wines & I
Jim> presume beers.  Has anybody out there used or heard of using lactose?

I used it in a cream stout, to provide a bit of residual sweetness rather
than a dry, Guinness (sp? :-) taste. Worked very well. Uh, I think I used a
half pound in a 5 gallon batch.

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Date: Wed Nov  6 07:18:50 1991
From: darrylri at microsoft.com
Subject: re: Serious Business

Jeff Frane says:
> To Darryl: You know, I think you're right. That's why I always love that Mexican
> beer in the black-painted bottle. <Aagh! Just kidding!> Seriously, it's clear
> that not everyone *has* gotten the message about light-struck beer. Otherwise,
> why would it keep cropping up at beer judgings? If you're going to drink your
> beer in a closet, it doesn't matter what kind of bottle it's in, but I still
> think it's courting trouble to use Sam Smith bottles as some homebrewers use.
> Everytime I sit in the courtyard at Produce Row, sipping a pint of Sierra Nevada
> I try to set it in someone's shadow. I'm the nervous type.

Well, that *is* pretty nervous ;-).  I guess I've not made myself clear,
and I'm sorry about that.  From the point of view of the brewer, it makes
sense to protect their beer as well as is necessary with their methods.
For homebrewers, this may not require the use of dark brown bottles, since
they (often) know better.  For a commercial brewer bottle color may not
matter at all since ignorant retailers (by far the majority) can hurt
them regardless.

But, from the point of view of the taster/judge, bottle color makes no
difference, since a clear bottle may contain perfectly fine beer, and the
darkest brown bottle may contain skunk juice.  I take as my starting
point that commercial beer will be skunky if I don't know how it was
treated, and that homebrew will not (since there is a "real" person
behind it who would do their best not to hurt it).  I also wanted to
make the point, since I've heard about judges who automatically assume that
beer in a green bottle is of lower quality than brown (and more than once),
that that is an outrageous and unwarranted assumption.

Gary Mason writes:
> There is an article entitled "Calculating Hop Bitterness in Beer" by Jackie
> Rager in the Zymurgy special issue on hops (V13, #4 - Special, 1990) which has
> all of the letters and numbers you could ever want, I suspect. 
> 
> Darryl - do you use this (type of) info in your Macintosh product-to-be?

It's a bit early yet to speak of product (that is to say, I'm not done yet,
and as has been pointed out on CompuServe, that makes me just another
vendor of vapor;  sigh), but I have incorporated Rager's algorithm (with
some minor modification) into my code base.  (He gets a mention in my
manual's bibliography.)

		--Darryl Richman


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Date: Wednesday, 6 November 1991 10:26am ET
From: joshua.grosse at amail.amdahl.com
Subject: Several Things re: HBD 756


Rich Lenihan (rech at bedford.progress.COM) writes:

>  4.  I recently tasted Xingu Black Beer from Brazil.  For those
>  of you who haven't tasted it, it's very black, slightly bitter,
>  and a strong taste of...I don't know what.  The only beverage
>  that I could closely compare it to would be Moxie Cola.  I
>  suspect that the similarity is due to the use of some root or
>  root extract.  Does anyone know what this might be?  Not that
>  I wish to duplicate it; just curious.

And, Jim Grady (jimg at hpwala.wal.hp.com) writes:

>Some beer/winemaking supply shops sell lactose as an unfermentable sugar
>that can be added to get a residual sweetness in wines & I presume beers.
>I have never used it so I would ask my supplier or seek out the advise
>of someone who has.  Has anybody out there used or heard of using lactose?


Let me try to ferment two worts with one pitch, as it were.  I've tried
to duplicate Xingu, but reduce some of the roast barley bite.  I think
I've succeeded, though I haven't done a side by side comparison.  I
believe that Xingu is what's known in the UK as a milk stout, as I
believe that lactose is used to add body and to very slightly sweeten
the flavor.

Here's "Josh's Better Xingu."  Again, it's close to Xingu, but I think
its better:

To make 5 gallons:

6.6 lbs M&F Dark Extract
1   lb  Crystal Malt
1/2 lb  Chocolate Malt
1/4 lb  Black Patent Malt
1/4 lb  Roast Barley
1/2 lb  Lactose
2   oz  Northern Brewer (Boiling only.  No finishing hops.)
        Gypsum
3/4 cup Dextrose (priming)
        Wyeast 1028

Crack and steep specialty grains at 150 F for about an hour in 1/2 gal
water.  Sparge with 1.5 gallons of 165 F water.  Add the extract and
Gypsum.  When boiling, add the hops.  Boil for one hour, add the
lactose to the boil for the last 15 minutes.

Primary 3-7 days
Secondary 7-14 days

O.G. 1.042
F.G. 1.021

Jack Schmidling (arf at ddsw1.mcs.com) writes:

>                 TO BLOW OR NOT TO BLOW (OUT)
>
>I have been entranced with the idea of "blow out" primary fermentation and
>had to give it a whirl.    The following are my observations on the
>procedure.....(discoveries/observations using plastic tub deleted)...

Jack, most of us who use "blow-off" methodologies do so using a 5
gallon carboy as the primary fermentation vessel.  The benefits are
closed fermentation and removal of crap with reduced risk of infection.

>BTW, I like skimming.  It makes me feel like I am contributing something to
>the process.

You'd mentioned earlier (in rec.crafts.brewing) that you've been losing
two out of ten batches to contamination.  It may be possible that your
open fermentation and/or skim technique may be contributing to this.

I used to use a 7.5 gallon plastic tub, and skim, and had similar
problems, no matter how careful I was with sanitation.  I switched to
a closed fermentation technique some years ago and haven't had an
infection since.  I truly believe this was due to airborne stuff in
my house, as the same procedures and ingredients would produce great
beer one time and weed killer the next, due to infection.

Check out Papazian's book.  The first section, supposedly for beginners,
will show you the carboy/blowoff methodology and has a great discussion
on using plastic primary fermenters at its end.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Josh Grosse                                jdg00 at amail.amdahl.com
Amdahl Corp.                               313-358-4440
Southfield, Michigan

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Date:  6 Nov 1991  10:55 EST
From: dab at pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (dave ballard)
Subject: my $.02 on light damage


Hey now-  I just wanted to add my $.02 on light damage and skunkiness
since I had a recent problem concerning just that.  I decided (after 
some prompting) to enter my first batch, a pale ale, in the NYCHG
competition in NYC on 11/2.  I was pretty psyched 'cause the stuff 
came out really good and has been improving with age.  The age at
judging time was about 5 weeks after bottling.  

Anyway, I check out the judges sheets after the contest and their only 
real complaint was skunkiness.  Now, I had a bottle of the stuff on the 
night of 11/1 and it was anything but skunky.  I cracked open a left-over
bottle at the competition and sure enough it smelled/tasted like Pepe le
Peu's bathwater!  All I can figure out is this-  when I dropped my 
three bottles off at Greg Zaccardi's (who did a great job organizing
by the way), we were standing around bs-ing for like 10 or 15 minutes and
the bottled were in the sun.  The were brown Whitbred bottles, really thick.

I guess this doesn't add much to the conversation other than more 
proof that exposure of even just 10 or 15 minutes is enough to do
some extensive damage...

later
dab

=========================================================================

dave ballard		      | Reach out your hand if your cup be empty, 
dab at pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com     | if your cup is full may it be again, 



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Date: Wed, 6 Nov 91 08:49:10 MST
From: pyle at intellistor.com (Norm Pyle)
Subject: Blowoff

Jack Schmidling asks:

>How come Baderbrau pumps the chilled wort into a fermenter  and 30 days later 
>drains it off to be filtered and bottled?  They do not seem to be concerned
>about the foam falling back in.  This is the beer that Jackson proclaimed the
>best American Pilsner.
 
Because blowing off or skimming foam doesn't make a rat's *ss bit of difference,
IMHO.  (that ought to start a nice little flame war...)
Cheers!
Norm

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Date: Wed, 6 Nov 91 08:14:52 PST
From: Richard.Stueven at Corp.Sun.COM (Richard Stueven)
Subject: Garlic Beer

Due to numerous requests (four, to be exact) here's the "recipe" for
gak & laurel's Garlic Beer:

We didn't keep any notes on the garlic beer, so here's my best recollection:

6# plain light extract syrup (hopped?  who knows...)
2oz Cascade leaf (60 min)
2oz Cascade leaf (10 min)
one Big Thing of garlic (maybe half the size of your fist)
Whitbread dry ale yeast

The procedure is the same as for any simple extract beer.  Chop up the
garlic and throw it into the boil for the full 60 minutes.  If you
don't want quite so much garlic flavor, strain the garlic bits out
before racking (we didn't).

have fun

gak

Richard Stueven       AHA# 22584 |----------| You talk to me about picking up
Internet:       gak at Corp.Sun.COM |----GO----| the slack, then you turn around
ATTMAIL:         ...!attmail!gak |---SHARX--| and stab me right in the back...
Cow Palace: Sec 107 Row F Seat 8 |----------| Talk Is Cheap.


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Date: Wed, 6 Nov 91 08:30:58 PST
From: Richard.Stueven at Corp.Sun.COM (Richard Stueven)
Subject: Re: Brew Video

Chris Shenton <chris at endgame.gsfc.nasa.gov> asks:
>
>Doesn't the AHA have a video on homebrewing for beginners, staring all your
>favorite (:-) stars, like Papazian, et al?

It's called "Home Brew with Charlie Papazian", and it's available for
$29.95.  I'll send the complete text of the blurb along with ordering
instructions to all who inquire via email.

I have no association with the producers or distributors of this
product other than as a fellow AHA member.

have fun

gak

Richard Stueven       AHA# 22584 |----------| You talk to me about picking up
Internet:       gak at Corp.Sun.COM |----GO----| the slack, then you turn around
ATTMAIL:         ...!attmail!gak |---SHARX--| and stab me right in the back...
Cow Palace: Sec 107 Row F Seat 8 |----------| Talk Is Cheap.

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Date: Wed, 6 Nov 91 08:34:26 PST
From: Richard.Stueven at Corp.Sun.COM (Richard Stueven)
Subject: Re: Brew Video

>>Doesn't the AHA have a video on homebrewing for beginners, staring all your
>>favorite (:-) stars, like Papazian, et al?
>
>It's called "Home Brew with Charlie Papazian", and it's available for
>$29.95.  I'll send the complete text of the blurb along with ordering
>instructions to all who inquire via email.
>
>I have no association with the producers or distributors of this
>product other than as a fellow AHA member.

I should add that I have not seen the video...only the ad in _zymurgy_.

gak

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Date: Wed, 6 Nov 91 11:14:55 EST
From: KCDESCH at ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Sawing Kegs

For some strange reason one of my neighbors here in Bloomington was unable
to return a keg to the liquor store and he asked if I could do it for him.
Well he no longer lives here and guess what is still sitting beside the house?
Thats right a keg that is half full of the most oxidized beer imaginable.

I have heard mention in this digest of using kegs as boiling pots.  It would be
great to have such a large pot for all grain batches.  It even fits over both
burners on my stove.  But I'm not exactly sure how to saw the top of this thing.Assumming that I could rent any tool I need what kind of saw do I want?  It looks like this is an aluminum keg.  Is that bad?

Anyone who haany ideas for me please feel free to reply directly.

I'm here:     

         KCDESCH at indiana.edu

Thanks,

Karl Desch

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Date: Wed, 6 Nov 91 08:48:01 PST
From: Richard.Stueven at Corp.Sun.COM (Richard Stueven)
Subject: Re: Wy dyd my Wyeast wyther?

>One thing in the instructions that I didn't do was aerate the wort
>after pitching. It didn't seem all that important.

Yow!  It's Very Important!  You can get good results without aerating
(although you didn't this time), but if you want your yeast to really
take off, aeration makes all the difference.  Here's what I do:

	- Rack into carboy (or bucket or whatever)
	- Seal it up
	- Shake it and roll it and slosh it for two or three minutes
	- Open it up and pitch the yeast
	- Reseal with airlock
	- Relax

>When there was no
>trace of fermentation by last night, I decided to rack it into my
>other carboy, since about three inches of spoogy sediment had already
>accumulated. I also thought that racking would aerate it a little.

A little, but probably not much.  Try shaking the hell out of it.  This
should stir up the sediment and aerate it at the same time.  If that
doesn't help, jeez I don't know...maybe your yeast died somewhere
between the packet and the beer.

>My wort is still okay, right?

Probably...

>I can go out and get some more yeast and pitch again, right?

Absolutely.  It sounds like that's probably the best bet.  You might
want to throw some dry yeast in right away instead of waiting for
another Wyeast packet to inflate...  (asbestos on)

good luck

gak

Richard Stueven       AHA# 22584 |----------| You talk to me about picking up
Internet:       gak at Corp.Sun.COM |----GO----| the slack, then you turn around
ATTMAIL:         ...!attmail!gak |---SHARX--| and stab me right in the back...
Cow Palace: Sec 107 Row F Seat 8 |----------| Talk Is Cheap.

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Date: Tue, 5 Nov 91 14:22:46 PST
From: pierce at chips.com (John Pierce)
Subject: UV light


As several people here have made some generalizations about UV light and
glass, I thought I'd throw my 2 bits in.  

UV filters for cameras DO work.  Ordinary glass only blocks SHORT wave UV,
not the near visible LONG wave that photographic film is sensitive to.
Try this...  With a decent 35mm SLR, and color film (especially slide)
shoot some distant scenic pictures of say mountains on a reasonably
clear day.  Shoot a few more with a standard (SKY) UV filter.  Shoot some
more with a HAZE filter.  The pictures shot with a naked lens will show a 
definate blue haze in the air that the two UV filters will reduce 
significantly.   Try shooting said distant scene through a piece of
medium gray colored plastic.  Now shoot it through a pair of decent
sunglasses.   (I've never tried this last, actually, let me know how
it comes out ;-).

Now, I am not a photo-chemist, so I don't know what wavelengths beer
is photo-sensitive too.  But I'll bet the answer is more complex then
you might think....


	John R Pierce			TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such
	pierce at chips.com		Thing As A Free Lunch. -heinlein
- ---------=========================================================-------------
As always, in case I am caught or killed, my employer will disavow
		all knowledge of my activities.


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #757, 11/07/91
*************************************
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