---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  SS Fermenters
  On 756 (Jeff Frane)
  light-struck beer -- a data point (Robert Del Favero)
  Filters/water/bottles (Bill Crick)
  poisoned beer (florianb)
  That's blow off Jack (Jay Hersh)
  Yeast poppers (the flying carboy cap) (Ken Johnson)
  Re: Dave Line's saccharin (korz)
  Re:  poisoned beer (Thomas Manteufel 5-4257)
  STUFF (Jack Schmidling)
  Re: cloves (korz)
  AHA Video (Paul Bigelow)
  Request for Testers (Brian Capouch)
  line of any messages--I'm cross-posting this to three other
  Subject lines (korz)
  520 nm (Dave Suurballe)
  The past week (Jeanne Sova ASQNC-TAB-IS 5320)
  homegrown hops (Jonathan A. Rodin)
  lemon in weizen biers (STROUD)
  hangover stuff (dave ballard)
  more skunk stuff' (STROUD)
  beer for the woods (Russ Gelinas)
  Bottle Color & Judge Prejudice (Jay Hersh)
  Cold Condition, Honey Priming (Jay Hersh)
  Coriander, leaf or seed? (Daniel L. Krus)
  priming with honey (mcnally)
  Orval (mcnally)
  IPA from Back Issue ("John Cotterill")
  Norm Pyle's Stout (Curt Freeman)
  weizen recipes (Gregory Klein)


Send submissions to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues!]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Nov 91 10:46:01 CST
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)

>From: George Fix (gjfix at utamat.uta.edu)
Subject: SS Fermenters

I share Jim White's (HBD 749) enthusiasm for stainless steel
fermenters. Moreover, the comments he made about their practicality
seem to be right on target.

I switched to stainless half kegs (volume=1/4 bbl.=1/2 keg=7.75gals.)
from glass carboys of the same volume in 1988. They were obtained from
a draft beer outlet for a "deposit" of $20. One word of caution about
such kegs. When you get them they will be sealed with a small beer residual
inside. The latter will be totally oxidized. Thus when you break into the 
keg be prepared for a highly unpleasant aroma. When I first did this my wife
had just come into the room, and she almost passed out. I wasn't doing all 
that well either! Given the raunchy nature of the smell, one might get the
impression that the keg was totally contaminated. Nothing of the sort, it
is oxidation pure and simple. A good hot water rinse will remove the 
offending materials. After that they can be cleaned and sanitized by
standard methods, and then are ready for use. 

My interest in half kegs stemmed from the following:
 
   1.Geometry- In the late 1940's deClerck studied fermenter shapes and
concluded (for a long list of reasons) that it is desirable that the
surface area of the fermenting wort be sufficiently large compared to its
depth. For cylinderical fermenters he recommended that the diameter be at
least 1.5 times its height. The half kegs have a diameter of 15" and a height
of 8", so they are well into deClerk's desirable range. An extra bonus is that
they will fit into most refrigerators. In addition, the outlet on these kegs
is 2", so either airlocks or blowout tubes are easy to attach.

  2.Kegging- Much has been written in Zymurgy and elsewhere about the value
of closed systems of transfer, where beer is pushed from one vessel to another
by CO2 pressure. This can be done with half kegs particularly if Cornelius or
Firestone soda pop kegs are used for beer storage.Two points are important. The
first part of the flow out of the fermenter will come from the top of the yeast
sediment. It will consist of dead yeast and trub. Bacteria, if present, will
usually be buried in the trub. This should be discarded until a clear flow is
evident. This will usually result in a loss of a pint (two at max) of beer. It
is also important to purge the receiving tank with CO2 before transfer, and
then vent it to drive out air. In addition, it is desirable to allow a slight
CO2 bleed from the receiving tank during transfer. This will purge all residual
air from both the tank and the beer as well. This means that storage will take
place under strict anaerobic conditions.

There is alas a downside to stainless. First, stainless generally means "less
stain" and not "no stain". Chlorine is very aggressive to metal if left in 
contact for a sufficient length of time. Sterilizing with boiling water having
a high iron content can have the same effect. Calcium Oxalate deposits from 
hard water have always been a concern about stainless fermenters. These 
deposits can lead to intractable hazes and other instabilities. Debois
Chemical makes a product called Pro Kleen (54% phosphoric acid, 10% isopropyl
alcohol,4.5% sulfonic acid) which is capable of dealing with these problems,
but only if this is done when they first appear. They quickly can become 
intractable if left unattended.

An alternative sanitizer that is finding widespread acceptance for stainless
is iodophor (1.75% iodine, 18.75% phosphoric acid). This agent is neutral to
stainless steel , and in fact can be stored in SS vessels for extended periods.
The FDA rates iodophors as a "no rinse required" sanitizer, and their standards
are high in such matters. (Some poor little mouse probably had to consume a
liter of residuals per day for years to check this!) However, it is important
to realize that the FDA is in the food safety not the food flavor business.
Thus rinsing is probably a good idea. I sterilize with iodophor immediately
after the equipment is used and  cleaned. The iodophor residual is left on 
it. Rinsing is done just before reuse. Sterile beer absorbs this agent much 
than water , and hence is prefered for rinsing.

It is to be emphasized that stainless equipment will last a lifetime if it
receives proper care. Thus, used can be just as good as new , and this also
applies to auxilary items like CO2 tanks. Such systems quite "user friendly",
and need not cost more than alternatives. One just has to look in the right 
places.



  
 


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Date: 06 Nov 91 13:57:52 EST
From: Jeff Frane <70670.2067 at compuserve.com>
Subject: On 756

I don't know if I've been posting late or what, but my submissions to the Digest
seem to be slipping by a day or so. I reposted, with changes, something I'd sent
before, which is why my contribution to 756 may have sounded somewhat familiar.
Hmmm. Perhaps if I e-mail this out early...

To Mike Daly: What gives soap? Perhaps . . . soap?

To Jacob Galley: I know it's days later and probably of no use to you, but you
could just as easily have left your beer alone for another day or so to see if
activity picked up. You don't mention temperature, but if it was pretty cool
(and an ale yeast) you might stir things up by raising the temperature to 65-70
or so. Aeration, however, IS VERY IMPORTANT!! Aerate it more than you think
necessary, lots more, when you pitch. And if at all possible, you should use a
starter. Your lag time was long, but not unusual for WYeast yeast without a
starter and without proper aeration.

To Al Marshall: I dunno, Al, I don't live that far from you and I've never had a
problem with the moldy gook, although maybe you should scrub around the window
frames once in awhile, 'cause lots of people are allergic to the stuff. Anyway,
once possibility for your problem (I know your technique is good 'cause you had
a good teacher), is that somehow the bottles are not perfectly sealed when
capped. It sounds as though they are getting mold spores *after* closure.
Anyway, try someone else's capper (borrow mine, for example) and see if this
fixes the problem.

To Jack Schmidling: I, for one, am not faintly convinced that blow-off tubes are
necessary, although I use one and, like you, love to watch the foam crawl down
the tube. I use this technique because it allows me to fill a 5-gallon carboy
and ferment without blowing fermentation locks around the room. I've also used
two carboys with the wort split between them. None of the microbreweries in the
Northwest use anything like a blowoff, nor do they skim. Most use closed
cylindriconical fermenters. The blow-off is a rough equivalent of the old Burton
Union system in which the blow-off would have fed yeast from one fermenter into
the next. British ale breweries skim their big fat crop of yeast and garp off
the top, because that's how they harvest yeast and because they've been doing it
that way for a very long time (at least a month). I've never tasted a beer with
flaws traceable to a failure to blow-off or skim.

To Mal Card: It is possible to have extremely long mashes, depending on your pH.
H L Hind's brewing text relates a fascinating experiment done by German brewing
scientists in the 30s, replicating the water of Vienna, Pilsen, Munich and
Dortmund, with identical grists. The mash times varied from 15 to 75 minutes,
and the color and aroma of the mash varied as widely. I agree with CP. With the
addition of gypsum to my water, my ale mash is usually done in 45 minutes. On
the other hand, I disagree with CP about boil; based on all my reading about hop
utilization, I strongly recommend 90 min for most beers, even longer for stouts,
etc.


To Jeff McGown: Go out and buy a bottling cane, the one with the little spring
valve on the end!!!! You will save on beer and on cleaning, far in excess of the
nominal cost. 


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Date: Tue, 5 Nov 91 19:54:42 EST
From: hpfcmr.fc.hp.com!hplabs!bunker!clunker.shel.isc-br.com!rvd (Robert Del Favero)
Subject: light-struck beer -- a data point

I am sad to report that I have a data point to offer in the ongoing
debate about light-struck beer and glass color.  I have before me a
glass of Orval Trappist Ale, with the date 1990/2 printed on the label.
I don't know if that's a bottling date or an expiration date, but
I hardly think it matters, being 21 months ago in any case.  It came in
a brown bottle. 

It is definitely light-struck. I know that Orval has an unusual taste,
because I've tasted it and other trappists, lambics, and bieres de
garde, but this isn't what it's supposed to taste like.  It's
definitely contaminated by eau de polecat.

The store I bought it from keeps the beer on display on a shelf in a
lighted room, at normal room temperature, so I assume that the off
flavor is due to the lighting (fluorescent) or to the storage
conditions.  Given the established relationship between light exposure
and the skunky flavor,(we do agree on *that*, don't we?) I'd venture a
guess that brown glass does not provide an absolute protection from the
adverse effects of light on beer, and that long exposure to light will
cause off flavors even when beer is in brown bottles.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert V. Del Favero, Jr.         Olivetti Advanced Financial
Development Group rvd at clunker.shel.isc-br.com
Shelton, Connecticut, USA


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Date: 	Tue, 5 Nov 1991 14:34:12 -0500
From: hpfcmr.fc.hp.com!hplabs!ames!gatech!bnr-vpa!bnr-rsc!crick (Bill Crick)
Subject: Filters/water/bottles

I was talking to the rep from the company that makes "Brita" water filters,
which are the gravity fed two container ones you put in your fridge.
I recently made beer with one, and had filtered 25 litres in a few hours.
They recommend no more than 6 litres per day.

A few of her comments:

The reason the that they reccomend no more that six litres has to do with 
the ion exchange resin beads they use to filter heavy metals. There is a 
limited diffusin rate in the resin, so that it is only the ions near the 
surface of the beads that are active, and when these are depleted, it takes a
while for them ot be refreshed by diffusion from the inside of the beads.
If you filter more water than the six litres per day, the heavy metal removal
efficiency goes down.
She said that there are only two ways to remove heavy metals. Ion exchange,
and sodium exchange, and that the people who sell carbon filters claiming to 
filter heavy metals are wrong. Carbon based filters won't remove the 
metals!

She said they will soon release a under the counter, replacable cartridge
BRITA filter for tap water. I t will provide a full capacity stream of 
filtered water.

I'll report on the filtered water beer when it is finished.



Regarding the bottle color issue: In Ontario, beer comes in light tight
cardboard cases, and then it usually goes into a dark fridge?
Also I brew my beer in a dark basement with an old shirt on the carboy.
After bottling it, it is in a dark room, or dark fridge???
So what is the issue here?

A lot of people are flaming Mr Schmidling. However when you try so hard to 
show him how smart you are, you are telling all he needs to know for his
little commercial enterprise. YOu are in effect providing him with a lot
of free consulting service???


Bill Crick Brewius, Ergo Suds





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Date: Wed, 06 Nov 91 12:39:46 PST
From: florianb at chip.cna.tek.com
Subject: poisoned beer

Yesterday, Thomas Manteufel gave a terrifying account of getting sick from
beer that had been fermented with questionable yeast.  I'd like to comment
on this.

First, having picked up a packet of Red Star yeast and pitched it into the
wort which had set overnight introduces several possibilities.  I just can't
believe Red Star is the source of the problem.  I have used just about
every kind of yeast available to me here in Oregon, including Red Star
(both ale and lager).  I have used Red Star in about 40 batches over
the years.  Apart from cosmetic differences (due perhaps to wild yeast
content), Red Star has always been a good performer for me in terms of
speed, attenuation, and overall quality.  It *NEVER* fails to ferment
out very quickly.  Furthermore, I can't believe that Red Star could
contain anything which would make you sick, or that it could ferment
out to produce anything which can make you sick.  I mean, I have never
seen any evidence from my brewing to support anything like that.  That
the Red Star failed to ferment tells me that there was something else
in the wort which was killing the yeast, and nearly you.

Second, that the wort was sitting overnight is suspicious.  Did the wort 
sit in a metal boiling pot?

Third, could your kids have poured something into your wort?  I have
kids too (1.5 and 5.5 years) and have to watch them like hawks to 
prevent them from "helping me" with brewing.  Just last night, my
son dropped a rubber toy into some bread my wife was making and we
didn't discover it until the loaf was done!

Fourth, are you using only plastic or glass for fermentation vessels?

Fifth, what were your starting ingredients?  Did you use malt extract
from a metal can?

Finally, I *highly* suspect that somewhere in your process is a metal
container that "got you".  If not, then this is a mystery for someone
else to solve.  But in the finaly analysis, I just don't believe Red
Star has anything to do with it.

Florian


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Date: Wed, 06 Nov 91 15:56:07 EST
From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu>
Subject: That's blow off Jack


Jack sez:

> 1.  The batch size is critical.  The carboy must be "full" in order to blow 
> out all the foam but not so full that a lot of wort is lost.  
>
> This may seem like a simple problem when making up an extract batch wherein 
> brewing water can be added to top it off or make up the full wort.  Even 
> then, I would guess that, what works in winter would be an explosion in warm 
> weather.

Why do you speculate this, what effect would the season have on how blow-off 
works?? I don't see the connection. Please explain, I have never noticed any
seasonal difference, but my abode maintains reasonably close summer and winter
room temps.

As for why big brewers don't use blowoff. I have often wondered this myself.
I have noticed that some micr-brews seem to produce headaches where others
don't, but I can't claim any correlation between brewing technique and
presence/absence of headaches in micro-brews.

The correlation was clearly there in MY homebrews. 

Purely guessing I would guess that this may be an effect of brewing to scale.
From what I can observe it does not appear that the amount of "blowoff
material" (ie what commercial brewers would blow off if they did) has a linear
relation in the large open top ferments that I have seen. By this I mean that
the amount of this material is smaller as a percentage of total batch size for
them than it is for homebrewers.

Other factors that may have bearing are temperature control.
Any homebrewers out there that do blow-off in a temperature controlled brewing
environment?? Any guesses??

I'd also speculate some dependence on yeast strain, as I never do blowoff with
lagers, and would also guess that it's usefullness (to those that favor it)
may vary with strain.

As for blow0ff being a "m-word" I don't recall seeing anyone religiously
espousing it's usefullness, or lack thereof. As I stated earlier I found there
to be a difference in the results of my brewing process when I use the blow-off
method. I recommend it to people, but I wouldn't say I do so with the religous
fervor most associate with the "m-word"

 - JaH




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Date: Wed, 6 Nov 91 13:17:19 PST
From: kjohnson at argon.berkeley.edu (Ken Johnson)
Subject: Yeast poppers (the flying carboy cap)

I just pitched a starter of Wyeast German Ale yesterday, and this morning I
found the carboy cap laying next to the carboy and massive mounds of yeast
and foam all over the floor.  I assume that the yeast took off really quickly,
clogged up the cap, blew it off, and spewed.  

So here's the question:  What form of blowby allows the passage of yeasties
and foam without clogging and becoming airborn?  I was using the 3/8" tube
on the cap.

Covered in yeast,

kj

(please respond to me directly)

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Date: Tue, 5 Nov 91 17:19 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Re: Dave Line's saccharin

Gary writes:
>I never have seen an answer to this...or even a discussion, that I can 
>remember.  Line specifies one saccharin tablet (characterized as the one that 
>has the "sweetness" of one tsp of sugar) per gallon in many of his recipes. 
>What does that mean?  The residual sweet taste, with no intentional addition 
>of fermentables?  If so, what can one substitute for the same result?  If one 
>uses sugar, it will ferment, and presumeably lose it's "sweetness".  Again, I 
>assume that what he wants is the sweetness in the finished product only.

Yes.  It is residual sweetness that is the reason for the saccharin tablets.
Some recipes call for lactose, which is a non-fermentable sugar.  I
have never used either, rather I use a less-attenative yeast, such as
Wyeast Irish Ale.  Does someone know how much lactose to substitute for
a saccharin tablet (i.e. substitute for one teaspoon of sucrose)?

Al.
korz at ihlpl.att.com


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Date: Wed, 6 Nov 91 15:22:09 CST
From: tomm at pet.med.ge.com (Thomas Manteufel 5-4257)
Subject: Re:  poisoned beer

 > Florian's account of possible problem's and sources of the toxins
	
Hi, Florian.  I see you can appreciate my kid problems.  Mine are 8mths and
3yrs.  The wort sat in a teflon coated pot overnight.  The kids couldn't
touch it - it was locked in the basement in a covered pot.  I use a glass
carboy, it was filled with bleach solution before use and was well rinsed with
hot (~130 F) water before filling.  Malt was from a 60# bucket, scooped into
ziploc bags and frozen until dumped into boiling water for the half hour boil.
I used a plastic spoon to stir, and plastic tubing to siphon from the brew 
kettle into the carboy (got to watch that oxidation after all) when the wort
was cool.  No metal, everything was washed and clean but not sanitized like
the carboy was.  I talked to Erik H. and now I sumise maybe a mold from
somewhere got into the wort.  (I agree, let's not start flaming Red Star for
being the source of infection.  All I know is that it didn't take.)  Anyhow,
I have severe allergies to molds and this could just as well have been an
allergic reaction.  By the by, I didn't eat or drink anything that other
people in the family didn't also have, and no one else got sick.

The fact is, something got into my batch and made me sick.  It may have been
a harmless (for normal people) mold, but it did get in.  I, for one, am going
to tighten up a little on sanitation procedures.

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Date: Wed, 6 Nov 91 16:21 CST
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: STUFF

 
 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 
 From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu>
 Subject: Wort Chillers, headaches
 
 
 >Well Jack, there are 2 types of wort chillers.
 
 Aparently, I invented a third.  If you take an emersion chiller and put it in 
 a bucket of water with a garden hose filling the bucket and the run-off, 
 running off, one could experiment with it both ways.
 
 > Counter-flow wort chillers acheive a very fast cold-break. This has 2 
 effects, one that various precipitates form and will drop out of solution as 
 a result of a quick change from hot to cold,
 
 It is to be understood that it will drop out in the primary or a settling 
 tank.
 
 >In counterflow chillers all the wort that passes through the chiller 
 acheives the same instantaneous drop in temperature. In the immersion chiller 
 the whole wort cools at the same time and the same rate (slow, but 
 substantially faster than with no chiller).
 
 I received a flyer in the mail from The Home Brewery claiming that their 
 emersion chiller will chill 5 gallons to pitching temp in 15 min.  It looks 
 like about 7 turns of 1/4 copper tubing.  This seems utterly preposterous.  
 Can someone save me the trouble of proving it.
 
 From: parker at mprgate.mpr.ca (Ross Parker)
 
 >I smell an acronym here - How about 'OWT' (Old Wive's Tale) in place of the
 much overused and somewhat idiotic sounding Schmidily... this is in keeping
 with age old TLA (Three Letter Acronym) tradition.
 
 If you are so obsessed with beating me down by making my words "nonwords", I 
 suggest you at least improve on them.. Did you every "say" OWT?  There are 
 five syllables in it compared to three in momily.  Try a little harder.
 
 >(mind you... 'schmidily' has a nice ring to it also... :-)
 
 Yah .... and only two syllables.
 
 From: Mike Sharp <msharp at cs.ulowell.edu>
 
 >Yes, The AHA does have a video.....
 >The AHA can be reached at (303)447-0816
 
 JSP can be reached at (312) 685 1878 or arf at ddsw1.msc.com for more info.
 
 "Brew It Yourself" is a far more interesting video and at half the price to 
 netters.  
 
                  (Non-commercial desclaimer)
 "BREW IT YOURSELF" is also available at most libraries. 
 
 >FWIW, Jack pointed out that commericalism is OK on Internet so I thought
 I'd just add my $0.02.  Perhaps we should post information about this
 video on a regular basis.  After all, it would be for the enlightenment
 of the new brewers -- we should do _everything_ possible to get new
 brewers started.  Maybe I'll even buy a few copies of the video and
 rent it out...
 
 Great idea but let's make sure we promote the most useful and informative 
 video.  Knowing that you have not seen both, we need to be a little skeptical 
 of your recommendation.

js


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Date: Tue, 5 Nov 91 17:53 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Re: cloves

Jack writes:
>Where did those bloody cloves come from?

More than likely, they came from your yeast.  As you have already mentioned,
you use Red Star, which although has been known to produce banana esters,
may possibly (at certain temperatures) produce 4-vinyl guaiacol, which 
has a clove-like, phenolic flavor.  There are two strains of yeast that
are known to produce clove flavors:  S. delbrueckii (the Bavarian wheat
beer yeast) and S. diastaticus (a superattenuating wild yeast).  A commercial
yeast that I know produces a clove character (which, I personally, don't
like and which took almost 8 months to go away in a batch I recently made
with this yeast) is Munton & Fison's Muntona yeast fermented at 68 F.

Two years ago, I switched to Wyeast and now I will only use dry yeast if I'm
trying to duplicate a recipe exactly.  I recommend this switch to everyone.
I think you'll be as pleasantly suprised as I was.

Al.
korz at ihlpl.att.com


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Date: Wed, 6 Nov 91 23:34:15 EST
From: Paul Bigelow <bigelow at waterloo.hp.com>
Subject: AHA Video

Mike Sharp says:
> Yes, The AHA does have a video.
and goes on with:
> The writeup on the video reads: ........

That sounded familiar. Papazian did that video as a home study course
for TVOntario (hence the Toronto locations for interviews), and it's
been aired countless times this past year. I've watched it several times
and would highly recommend it to any beginning homebrewer.

If a picture is worth a thousand words, a video is worth at least
a few pictures, especially when it comes to things like demonstrating
how to start a siphon (BTW, Charlie uses the tube filled with water
technique). However it's hard to use a video for reference in the
middle of brewing, so I think you still need his book for the real details.

In the video he demonstrates making a kit beer including sanitizing,
boiling, fermenting, and bottling, and then makes another extract beer
with specialty grains.

The interviews with brewmasters, brewing clubs and individual homebrewers
add to the video. It becomes obvious that homebrewers have "opinions",
and they don't always line up with each other. Sorta like a camera
whirring while HBD members sound forth.

The only unrealistic part of the video is where Charlie is babbling
on about water quality or something, and all of a sudden he rushes
over to the stove. The unrealistic part is that he manages to rescue
the wort BEFORE it boils over :-).

Paul Bigelow	bigelow at waterloo.hp.com


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Date: Wed,  6 Nov 91 22:50:57 -0600 (CST)
From: Brian Capouch <brianc at zeta.saintjoe.EDU>
Subject: Request for Testers

I am a graduate student working on a project involving electronic journals.

My project, stated briefly, involves designing software that will allow
electronic journals to be hierarchically structured, then interactively
browsed.  The software is to be public domain, and the design calls for
it to support a wide variety of potential platforms.  The current,
alpha-version software runs on vanilla ASCII terminals, as well as X
windows.

Since I am a longtime HBD subscriber, I'm going to use it as one of my
"practice" journals.

I'm looking for a few (hmmm, perhaps the first dozen) people who'd be
willing to test this software, knowing that it's in alpha form only, and
provide feedback to me about the workability and design of the system.

I have partitioned a few recent digests into the following categories:
Technique and Technology; Ingredients; Recipes; Breweries and Pubs;
Meads, etc.; and Miscellaneous.  Each digest will be burst and sorted by
topic.  The software will allow browsing by topic or title, or serially,
as is done most likely by most of you as it is. 

Respondents can help me greatly by using the keyword "homebrew" in the
Subject: line of any messages--I'm cross-posting this to three other
lists, and need to keep track of which group my respondents belong to. 

Thanks in advance to all who are willing to help.

Brian Capouch
Dept. Agricultural Engineering
Purdue University
brianc at saintjoe.edu (Preferred)
capouch at ecn.purdue.edu

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Date: Wed, 6 Nov 91 17:11 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Subject lines

I am not an avid user of the archives, so correct me if I'm wrong,
but I recall the indices list the Subjects of all the posts in a digest.
Therefore, I'd like to point out that I think that we've drifted
away from the habit of using accurate Subjects for our posts.
A Subject like: "Re: Digest #123" or "stuff" are useless.  Let's
try to use accurate Subjects.
Al.

P.S.
<GLOAT ON>
We're headed over to the Winekeller Brewery tonight.  Just to tease
you all a bit, they stock 38 Belgian, 27 English, and approximately
500 other beers.  I think I'll have a Liefman's Goudenband, Duvel,
Fuller's ESB, SS Oatmeal Stout, and maybe an Orval for dessert. :^)
<GLOAT OFF>


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Date: Wed, 6 Nov 91 23:03:05 PST
From: Dave Suurballe <suurb at dumbcat.sf.ca.us>
Subject: 520 nm

Volume 8, Number 2 of New Brewer (March-April 1991) mentions the
magic number on page 10 in an article by Owens-Brockway entitled
"The Right Glass":

"The degeneration problem occurs most frequently in warehouses or
retail outlets where fluorescent lighting is the norm.  While all
light with the wavelength of 520 millimicrons has the potential to
cause beer skunkiness, it is the ultra-violet (UV) portion of the
light spectrum below 400 millimicrons that is the most harmful to
beer in the shortest period of time.  (See graph.)  In fact, it can
affect beer flavor in as little as 24 hours."

The graph, which I obviously cannot reproduce, shows that amber
glass transmits about 5% of the light below 400 nm (UV), green
glass about 80%, and clear glass about 90%.  Between 400 and 520 nm
(green), amber glass climbs from 5% to 30%, green drops from 80% to 
50% (at 450 nm, which is blue-green) and then climbs back to 80%, and
clear glass stays around 90%.

If these facts are correct, the correct technical choice for bottle
color cannot be controversial.

Suurballe

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Date:     Wed, 6 Nov 91 11:34:49 EST
From: Jeanne Sova ASQNC-TAB-IS 5320 <jsova at APG-9.APG.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:  The past week

  HOGWASH!  You might pull out you book and refresh your memory...
  So, I would prefer that if people are going to do book comparisons...they
  should at least get the facts straight and KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING 
  ABOUT... before instilling false statements about a good author into....
  Could we get this one straight?  Oxidation leads to the cardboardy taste.
  Cidery is something entirely different.....
  It is really wounderful to have all such confusion made "straight" by a 
  simple declaration.  Unfortunately, there seem to be a large number of 
  brewers who disagree with you....
  As a self-proclaimed authority on the subject, I wounder how much cardboard 
  you have tasted that gives you such strong credentials on the subject....
  If the intentionally rough treatment nor my past twenty years experience 
  produce something that I find objectionalble, then I will be less concerned 
  about minor infractions of the "proper" procedure....
  I think you should also do a little reading about wort chillers; you seem 
  to be under the misapprehension that it has to do with "clearing"....
  Perhaps you should do a little reading of the HBD....
  but it seems at times that you are more interested in hastily debunking 
  traditional brewing practices...
  As before you have totally ignored the context in which the term "normal" 
  was used and applied you own....
  Naked Aggression that is, Against the Mush Brained Masses that people like 
  you are freightening away from our hobby...
  Perfect example of NAAMBM.  You leave the nervous, tentative beginner with 
  two choices: spend $150 for a SS pot or drink Bud....
  Right!  Now the guy who is hesitant about getting into beer making, must 
  consider a $200 brew stove....
  Since there are a lot of beginners reading this forum, I think that
  recommending sloppy sanitation is an invitation to brew lactic acid....
  Pardon me, but that "magical" 525 nm number is pure BS.  Rather then keep 
  repeating it ad naseum, I would ask you to justify it with a reference.  I
  suspect that you will have difficulty....
  I, personally, think that Mr. Schmidling is more interested in gaining
  notoriety, validating his self-proclaimed expertise in homebrewing and
  making money, than making brewing beer easy and inexpensive.  I'm almost
  conviced that Mr. Schmidling knew very little about brewing before joining
  this forum.  Twenty years of brewing vinegar does not an expert make....
  Please stop with the ad campaign for your videos and stating your opinions 
  as if they were facts!  If this Digest was only experts and no beginners 
  were reading it, I would just ignore you.  However, there are beginners here
  and I'm not going to let you fill their heads with incorrect information....



Tough Crowd.


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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 91 07:40:46 -0500
From: rodin at ftp.com (Jonathan A. Rodin)
Subject: homegrown hops

Is there an easy process to determine the alpha acid content of homegrown
hops?  If there isn't an easy process, what's the difficult process?

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Rodin		ftp Software, Inc.		voice: (617) 224-6261
rodin at ftp.com		26 Princess Street		fax:   (617) 245-7943
	     		Wakefield, MA  01880


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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1991 08:36 EST
From: STROUD%GAIA at leia.polaroid.com
Subject: lemon in weizen biers

There have been some postings over the last few months commenting that wiezen
biers in Germany are rarely served with lemon any longer.

I thought that an excerpt from a  Michael Jackson article might be of interest
(from What's Brewing, Oct. 1991):

"When I first encountered South German wheat beers in the early to mid 1960s,
they were regarded as an old-fashioned, rustic style, favoured by old ladies
with large hats.  The beer was at that time customarily garnished with a slice
of lemon.
"People have told me the lemon was to mask the taste of the uneven products
made at that time by unscientific country brewers; I do not believe that.  Some
of the wilder wheat beers might taste odd to the uninitiated, but not to people
who grew up with them.
"I have also heard it said that the lemon reduced the foam to manageable
proportions, but why would anyone want to flatten a naturally sparkling drink?
"I believe the lemon accentuated the tart, refreshing character of the beer,
and I am sorry that it is so rarely seen in Germany today.
"Apparently the green movement is worried that the rind may carry pesticides; a
new generation of purists dislike the lemon; and it does not go so well with
the heavily sedimented style currently favoured." 

           --Steve Stroud

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Date:  7 Nov 1991   8:22 EST
From: dab at pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (dave ballard)
Subject: hangover stuff



Hey now-  In HBD #757 Mike Ligas writes:

>From my simple understanding of the phenomenon, the main culprit is dehydration
>with some credit going to vasodilation in the skull. Both alcohol and fusels
>along with some amines are the cause. The liver, that wonderful detoxification
>centre, requires the B-complex to provide cofactors for various detox pathways.
>The high demand for B-vitamins results more in a shortage than an imbalance.
>I've had better luck taking time-released B-complex prior to indulgence rather
>than after but either way will help. As mentioned above, plenty of water is
>still the best treatment since it rehydrates the spinal fluids and helps to
flush ones system of toxins. Taking a teaspoon of fructose rich honey along with
>water also provides the liver with a good energy source.


I write:

When I was in school, one of the theories I heard about hangovers was that
the headache part was caused by a loss of potassium.  The lack of potassium
causes a dehydration of the mylan sheaths around nerve fibers and causes
them to "short out" for lack of a better word.  What I started doing was
drinking a ton of Gatorade before I went to bed and a little more ( 1/2 ton)
when I got up.  Worked like a charm (still does, actually).  I guess you
could munch a bananna or two if you don't dig Gatorade....

later
dab

=========================================================================

dave ballard                  |  Reach out your hand if your cup be empty, 
dab at pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com     |  if your cup is full may it be again, 



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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1991 08:31 EST
From: STROUD%GAIA at leia.polaroid.com
Subject: more skunk stuff'

Darryl Richman sez:

>Anyway, I will stick by my rule of thumb here, and I will refuse
>to prejudice myself by the bottle color in a contest (which was the
>true point of my posting).  Skunky beer is beer that has been handled
>poorly, and it seems easy enough to do so regardless of bottle color.

You're absolutely right.  No judge should look at a bottle of beer and make any
kind of decision on how it might taste, based on the bottle color.  Let your
nose do the talking.

Also:

>Well, I don't generally buy SN Pale Ale in a bottle when it was one of the
>easiest beers to enjoy fresh from the tap in LA.

Sigh................


                   --Steve Stroud   

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Date:    Thu, 7 Nov 1991 10:06:00 -0500 (EST)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: beer for the woods

  There's a theory (I believe it), that brewer's yeast and garlic will keep
away bugs, like mosquitos and black flies, and fleas too so give some to your 
dog/cat. Anyway, garlic homebrew should make a great bug repellant (working 
from the inside out).  A good way to check would be to make a batch in the 
spring, drink 5 or 6, sit naked in the woods in June, and count up your black 
fly bites. Less than 10 bites/minute of exposure would be definite proof of 
repellant capabilites.  Any volunteers?  }:-)

Russ G.
OPAL/ESP
UNH

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Date: Thu, 07 Nov 91 11:03:27 EST
From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu>
Subject: Bottle Color & Judge Prejudice


Our buddy Darryl sez:

>But, from the point of view of the taster/judge, bottle color makes no
>difference, since a clear bottle may contain perfectly fine beer, and the
>darkest brown bottle may contain skunk juice.  I take as my starting
>point that commercial beer will be skunky if I don't know how it was
>treated, and that homebrew will not (since there is a "real" person
>behind it who would do their best not to hurt it).  I also wanted to
>make the point, since I've heard about judges who automatically assume that
>beer in a green bottle is of lower quality than brown (and more than once),
>that that is an outrageous and unwarranted assumption.

This one reason why I am STRONGLY against beers being distributed in bottles to
the tables at competitions, as opposed to having stewards serve them in
pitchers. Since no scoring is done based on "bottle observation" (at least
there is no place on the score sheets for it as far as points goes) I see no
need to do this. Additionally I think that having one steward pour the beer
clear into the pitcher allows all the judges at the table to get the same beer,
rather than having various levels of clarity because a beer got poured from the
bottle into several glasses and inevitably got some yeast sediment kicked back
in (Maybe I'm just spastic but I have a tough time pouring a beer to several
glasses without kicking some yeast into it).

The only drawback to this is having stewards & pitchers. This hasn't been a
problem either at NE Regionals, or the 1st round Nationals here in NE.
Perhaps at small local competitions, and at the AHA finals, but you'd think at
the AHA final they could come up with some stewards and a few pitchers...

So I say just say NO to bottles when judging!! We actually leaned on our
steward and brought our own pitchers to the table at last years AHA Finals, and
this seemed to work pretty well..

 - JaH

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hopfen und Malz, Gott erhalts


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Date: Thu, 07 Nov 91 10:20:05 EST
From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu>
Subject: Cold Condition, Honey Priming



larryba at microsoft.com sez:

>Anyway, I lager in the refer (ales and lagers) until the beer is
fairly clear.  I then keg and artifically carbonate.  There is little
or no yeast activity at this point.

Hey I do this too, only I refer to it as Cold Conditioning.
I got going on doing this shortly after I got my kegging system.
It was Norm Hardy's descriptions of what he saw in Germany that 
made me think to do this. I have found that while helpful for lagers
(ie this amounts to the lager aging period most lager brewers use after ferment)
it also has a splendid effect on my Ales!!

A 2 week cold condition at around 35F really knocks the yeast out of
suspension. I also find it causes any chill hazes to precipitate and
settle, and leaves me with a clear, bright beer which side by side taste
tests (with bottles off the same batch that were not cold conditioned)
have shown has a cleaner flavor. I attribute this to the precipitation of
the haze and suspended yeasts which I think were had flavor components, proteins
and perhaps tannins, which while not show stoppers wrt the flavor, are still
better off removed from the beer.

So if you have a spare fridge and the time and inclination to try Cold
Conditioning (then you can brag like Miller Inc. does....) I'd recommend it.
It does nice things to the flavor profile!

Thanks Norm!!

Oh yeah, I haven't had any oxidation problems with this technique as 
larry indicated he sometimes does. guess YMMV!!


Joel Avery sez:

>Make sure you boil the honey with some water to kill off any
live cultures that might exist in the honey.

I thought that due to it's extremely high osmotic pressure that bacteria
wouldn't grow in honey. I don't know about molds or wild yeasts, and this may
only effect growth in the honey and not on it's surface.
Anyone with any solid info out there??


 - JaH

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hopfen und Malz, Gott erhalts


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Date:    Thu, 7 Nov 1991 12:30:07 -0500 (EST)
From: D_KRUS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Daniel L. Krus)
Subject: Coriander, leaf or seed?

With respect to Steve T's statement/comment on coriander:  Steve, I am also
aware of the use of coriander leaf in mexican cuisine.  But with respect to
the seed, the only place I've ever used it was in Indian dishes (my coriander
seed and plain yogurt chicken).  Relative to beer and an added spice flavor,
my taste buds would scream that they would not be offended by the
characteristics offered by the seed but they wouldn't be excited about what
the leaf would offer.  My hunch is that previous discussions about coriander
in beer did indeed mean to say seed and not leaf.... Oh yes, IMHO.

                              Dan

|**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:|
| Internet:    D_KRUS at unhh.unh.edu              | Daniel L. Krus               |
| Compuserve:  71601,365                        | Parsons Hall                 |
|-----------------------------------------------| Department of Chemistry      |
|  "A good word is an easy obligation, but not  | U of New Hampshire           |
|  to speak ill, requires only our              | Durham, New Hampshire  03824 |
|  silence, which costs us nothing."  Tillotson | (603) 862-2521               |
|**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:**:|

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Date: Thu, 07 Nov 91 09:29:29 -0800
From: mcnally at Pa.dec.com
Subject: priming with honey


My understanding is that due to the extremely high concentration of
sugar, the osmotic pressure in the honey environment is such that few
organisms can survive.  Therefore, boiling honey is not necessary.
It should be dissolved in warm (boiled then cooled) water.  Boiling
drives off most of the aromatic compounds that make honey interesting
in the first place.

I don't really see the point of priming with honey.  I seriously doubt
that the relatively small amount of honey will make any detectable
difference in the taste.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike McNally                                           mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation
Western Software Lab

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Date: Thu, 07 Nov 91 09:34:35 -0800
From: mcnally at Pa.dec.com
Subject: Orval


I'm trying to culture the yeast (and other denizens) from the dregs of
a couple of bottles of Orval Trappiste Ale.  I'll report on my results.

The head formed by pouring a bottle of Orval gently into a glass is
really amazing.  The foam is unbelievably dense and creamy; it's quite
similar to the Guinness-on-tap foam.  It stands up in little shapes
like the foam in industrially-polluted streams.  Wow.  I wonder how
they do it?  It's crystal-clear, with no detectable chill haze.  I'm
going to try a batch with a pound or so of wheat flakes and see if I
can come close.

The beer has a delectable hint of "Belgian sourness"; not as strong as
Satan, but stronger by far than Duvel.  Chimay has none of this, which
is why I want to ferment with Orval yeast in the first place.  (I hope
it's the same culture in the bottle.)

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike McNally                                           mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation
Western Software Lab

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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 91 10:02:25 PST
From: "John Cotterill" <johnc at hprpcd.rose.hp.com>
Subject: IPA from Back Issue
Full-Name: "John Cotterill"

A few days ago there was an IPA recipe in HBD.  I accidently deleted it.
Would someone be so kind as to forward the issue to me.  Thanks in advance
and sorry for the wasted bandwidth.
- --
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~       John Cotterill  (916) 785-4138          ~
~       Systems Technology Division             ~
~       8010 Foothills Blvd.                    ~
~       Roseville, CA 95678                     ~
~       HPDesk: John (hprpcd) /HP5200/UX        ~
~       Unix to Unix: johnc at hprpcd.rose.hp      ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 91 13:53:16 EST
From: Curt Freeman <curtf at hpwart.wal.hp.com>
Subject: Norm Pyle's Stout
Full-Name: Curt Freeman


   Norm Pyle's Rat's *ss Stout
================================

Begin with your favorite stout recipe.
To the boil add some rat's *sses.

If your primary is 5-gallon carbuoy fitted with a blowoff tube or you skim
the foam from the top of you primary, use 6 rat's *sses, otherwise use a
half-dozen.

Ferment, bottle, drink, and send a message to the HBD.

- --
 Curt Freeman         | INTERNET curtf at hpwala.wal.hp.com
 Hewlett-Packard      | FON: (617) 290-3406  FAX: (617) 890-5451



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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 91 10:21:17 PST
From: klein at imasun.lbl.gov (Gregory Klein)
Subject: weizen recipes

Does anyone out there have a good recipe for a wheat beer resembling one of 
the good Munich weizens.  I'd like to try brewing one but
if it's going to turn out like some of the American varieties I've tried,
(eg. Anchor, Sam Adams, Grant's) then I'd rather not bother.

Greg Klein
GJKlein at lbl.gov


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #758, 11/08/91
*************************************
-------

---