---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Glass Fermenters (Bob Jones)
  Coriander/Cilantro Confusion (Larry Gerstley)
  OXIDATION (Jack Schmidling)
  red tail? (Jeanne Sova ASQNC-TAB-IS 5320)
  Remove some members (Mitch Wright)
  It's Flame Time!! (BAUGHMANKR)
  Blow-off/skimming. From the books. (BAUGHMANKR)
  Beasties in honey (Carl West)
  re: beer for the woods (Drew Lawson)
  Re: The Past Week (MIKE LIGAS)
  Chillers and Hangovers (MIKE LIGAS)
  Honey priming and dry bacteria (Drew Lawson)
  Re: Blowoff (korz)
  Comradery
  Perception ("Rad Equipment")
  Perception                            Time:8:09 AM     Date:10/30/91
  Beer Styles (Bob Jones)
  Draught Guinness in a can!? ("Rad Equipment")
  Draught Guinness in a can!?!          Time:11:22 AM    Date:10/30/91
  Re: oxidized beer (korz)
  Re: Counterflow Chillers (korz)
  No flames here.. (Jay Hersh)
  Beer Expo in D.C. (Mark Stevens)
  Re: immersion efficiency (korz)
  (bloated) Gloating at Weinkeller :-) (The Hop Devil)
  STUFF (Jack Schmidling)
  Ginger Beer (Adam Jenkins)
  Ginger Beer (Adam Jenkins)
  Poetic End (MIKE LIGAS)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1991 08:31 PDT
From: Bob Jones <BJONES at NOVA.llnl.gov>
Subject: Glass Fermenters

After my strong recommendations regarding the use of glass 
fermenters I would like to relate an interesting story about one of 
the brewers in our club. Seems this brewer kept bringing 
obviously infected beers to our meetings and asking "what I am 
doing wrong?". We would all ask the usual questions, The 
fermenter was always high on the list of potential sources for 
contamination. He was using a glass carboy. After months of this 
quizzing I suggested maybe he should take up sewing :-- /  Well 
one day he walks in with the solution to the mystery. While he was 
cleaning his carboy he couldn't remove a particular stain. After 
getting his glasses (brewers over forty will relate to this) he 
discovered the stain was not really a stain but a bubble on the 
inside of the carboy. There was this green blob living very happily 
in that bubble. He bought a new carboy and yep his infection 
problems went away. He now brews award winning beers 
consistently. So, check those new and used carboy closely! 
Stainless definitely has an advantage in this respect. I'll relate 
another story about plastic fermenters at another time.

Bob Jones


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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1991 08:48:37 -0800
From: krweiss at ucdavis.edu

>Thomas Manteufel writes:

>I used a plastic spoon to stir, and plastic tubing to siphon from the brew 
>kettle into the carboy (got to watch that oxidation after all) when the wort
>was cool.  

After boiling and cooling, you WANT to aerate the wort thoroughly. It's the
only time you really want to introduce lots of oxygen into the wort, so the
yeast can utilize it during the respiration phase. Low oxygen levels tend
to cause slower starts, longer fermentations, and a higher probability of
stuck fermentations. (If your parenthetical note was a bit of humor, please
ignore my response... I've been out of touch for a couple of weeks, and
can't tell who's for real around here anymore)

KW

- -------------------------------------------
Ken Weiss               krweiss at ucdavis.edu
Computing Services      916/752-5554
U.C. Davis              916/752-9154 (fax)
Davis, CA 95616


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Date: Fri, 08 Nov 91 09:42:39 PST
From: Larry Gerstley <ldgerstl at ccmail.hsis.uci.edu>
Subject: Coriander/Cilantro Confusion

      Since my brewing partner is off staggering from brewpub to
      brewpub in Washington, I thought that I'd pick up the slack
      here...

      >With respect to Steve T's statement/comment on coriander: 
      >Steve, I am also aware of the use of coriander leaf in mexican
      >cuisine.  But with respect to the seed, the only place I've
      >ever used it was in Indian dishes (my coriander seed and plain
      >yogurt chicken).  Relative to beer and an added spice flavor,
      >my taste buds would scream that they would not be offended by
      >the characteristics offered by the seed but they wouldn't be
      >excited about what the leaf would offer.  My hunch is that
      >previous discussions about coriander in beer did indeed mean to
      >say seed and not leaf....

In fact, we did use the seed and not the leaf, and the flavour bears
      no resemblance to the mexican/chinese flavour.  I must admit, I
      am intrigued now and would like to brew a lager with the leaf in
      the boil.  The coriander beer is wonderful, though, even with
      the much maligned Red Star yeast.


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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 08:41 CST
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: OXIDATION

 
 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 
 
              MORE ON THE OXIDATION MOMILY
 
 This evening I had the opportunity to check my taste buds against some 
 experts at a meeting of the Chicago Beer Society.  Before I present their 
 opinion of my oxidation experiment, a little background.....
 
 As a debunker of MOMILIES, I decided to conduct my own experiment regarding 
 assertion that the billowing foam in my video "BREW IT AT HOME", would cause 
 oxidation leading to "cidery" or "cardboardy" tastes.
 
 The experiment goes like this:
 
 I brewed a batch of extract beer following all the does and don'ts derived 
 from the discussion on oxidation.  No splashing, foam and minimum head space.  
 I even tilted the bottles until the filler head was covered to preclude 
 turbulence at that point.
 
 I left about a quart of beer in the priming vessel and did just the opposite 
 to this.  I abused it in every way I could think of.  I sloshed it around for 
 several minutes.  I poured it into a quart bottle through a funnel and then 
 decanted it back and forth into another bottle about a dozen times.  I then 
 poured this into three 12 oz bottles, with a funnel, leaving about 3 inches 
 of head space.
 
 The bottles were numbered T1, T2 and T3.  They are to be opened and tasted at 
 30 day intervals and compared with the control samples.
 
 We tasted T1 today {10/14} and neither my wife nor I could detect the 
 slightest difference.
 
 ..........
 
 Tonite 11/7,  I poured samples for three certified judges and several 
 lurkers, of a control bottle and T2.  They had no idea what was done to T2, 
 only that it was the same batch and given special treatment.  No clue as to 
 good or bad treatment.
 
 The concensus of the judges was that T2 is "cleaner and smoother" than the 
 control.
 
 I rest my case on that one.
 ...............
 
 It was a fun time and we met a lot of fine people and sampled a lot of beer.  
 Marilyn liked everyone she tasted better than the last one.  I naturally 
 liked mine best.  In spite of this, I let her drive home.
 
 What really made the evening was meeting at least three readers of HBD and 
 usenet.  It reconfirmed my faith in the fact that in spite of all the big 
 mouths (me included) there are a lot of neat people out there who just yawn 
 and enjoy it.
 
 I left a copy of "BREW IT AT HOME" with one of the judges to look at and post 
 a review.
 
 So hopefully, we can hear some comments on a video that someone has actually 
 viewed.
 
 js
 
 

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Date:     Fri, 8 Nov 91 13:33:12 EST
From: Jeanne Sova ASQNC-TAB-IS 5320 <jsova at APG-9.APG.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:  red tail?

gang,

i was recently in california on business/fun.  when my friend heard i was
going, she begged me to bring back a six pack of red tail ale, 
(it is unavailable anywhere here on the east coast, and california is
a little far to go for beer, even great beer) saying that it was 
incredible, the best beer she's ever tasted, etc.  now while i was there 
buying this beer, the thought occured to me to grap a six for myself (of
course not realizing just how heavy this stuff is along with two bottles
of wine to carry through an airport).  now my question is, is this stuff
really that good?  should i wait until i am not rushed so as to savor
each bottle, or just grab em and chug on my way out to the local bar?
what do i have to look forward to?  and is the light in my refrigerator 
going to turn it to skunk juice if i keep it in there too long?

jeanne

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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 10:39:33 PST
From: mitch at cirrus.com (Mitch Wright)
Subject: Remove some members

Greetings!

Thank you for adding the alias "homebrew at cirrus.com"  if you could now
send me a list of your members that are within our domain and remove them
I would appreciate it.  Since some people may have used UUCP style addresses
here are some examples:

	user at cirrus.com
	user%cirrus at oliveb.ATC.Olivetti.Com
	user%cirrusl at oliveb.ATC.Olivetti.Com
	...!cirrus!user
	...!cirrusl!user

or any other peculiar address users can whip up.  Thanks and I'll keep
my eye our for you message so I can get them switched over quickly.

Regards,

   ~mitch

Mitch Wright

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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1991 14:24 EDT
From: BAUGHMANKR at CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU
Subject: It's Flame Time!!

Flame on!!

OK. I've had it!

Both behind the scenes and on the scene, there have been plenty of 
complaints about how the signal to noise ratio has been increasing on 
the HBD these days.  The cause?  (I hate to even say it..)  Big Jack's 
refusal to respect the norms concerning commercial advertising on the 
Internet. 

As a business person who loves the HBD and wants to see it return to 
the HBD of old, allow me to make a few points.  And then, frankly, I'm 
ready for this crap to come to an end.  Direct all flames/comments to 
me personally.  Let's not waste this bandwidth any more.  I'm sorry 
about this post but "I'm mad as hell and can't take it anymore."

Jack, I know you think you're cute and quick and witty the way you 
keep sliding in comments about your maybe-good-maybe-bad video.  But 
you're stretching the bounds of decency now, Pal, and I'm asking you 
wake up and smell the coffee.  Wrap that doubled-barrelled immersion/
counterflow chiller you "invented" around your neck and chill out! 
Your surreptitious references to your enterprise is out of place and 
in bad taste.  You're only fooling yourself.  We know all about your 
cursed video by now.  My God, man, you won't let us forget about it! 

I appreciate the fact that after making a dozen batches of beer, you 
feel the need to enlighten the world about how easy homebrewing beer 
is.  Great!  Fine!  Why you think a dozen batches of beer qualifies 
you as saviour of the world is beyond me.  But from the tone of your 
posts, lack of ego is a disease from which you do not suffer.  You've 
made your freaking video now.  You've pummeled us over the head about 
it.  We all have enough information before us, behind us, and on top 
of us to make up our minds about it.  Or do you think because the 
money isn't pouring in from all us netters that we're all just too 
stupid to know a good thing when we hear about it?  Or maybe the 
comment you made about how some of us are "silly people" reflect your 
deep down opinion of us. 

Speaking as a business person, now let me bust a few of your bubbles.  
Welcome to the homebrewing business world.  This is the world where if 
you're in it to make money, you're suffering from oxidation of the 
brain!  If all you have is one video to sell you'll be belly up in a 
year if not before.  If you're going to sell anything at all, you have 
to advertise in a COMMERCIAL forum.  I suggest Zymurgy.  4 ads a year 
will set you back about $1000.  That's a lot of VHS tape, Jack!  And 
your product is competing against products produced by people who have 
been brewing beer for over 15 years.  Gee! I wonder whose opinion I'd 
be better off following? 

I'm begging, I'm pleading, I'm on my knees to you to cease and 
desist.  We've had a good thing going here in the Digest for as long 
as I've been a subscriber.  I've learned more here about making beer 
than anywhere.  I participate as a homebrewer.  I go out of my way NOT 
to mention my products and my business.  (Can you name my business?  
I doubt it.)  A question was asked about one of my products a couple 
of weeks ago.  Did you see me answer it in these electronic pages?  
No.  I handled it the way I always handle them.  Quietly.  Behind the 
scenes.  And since you don't seem to be able to take a hint, let me 
tell you outright.  THE WAY IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE HANDLED!!  The crass, 
Madison 5th Avenue type commercialism you've seen fit to bombard us 
with makes me want to puke.  And in the process, you've caused the 
quality of the Digest to go downhill.  

Having said all this, let me point out that we really are more than 
happy to have you in the Digest.  Don't get me wrong.  The purpose here 
is to discuss homebrewing related issues.  If in the natural course of 
discussion, someone wants to talk about the relative merits of all the 
videos available, fine, then jump in and TRY to make objective 
comments about the products under discussion.  But you're totally out 
of line to initiate the discussion yourself.  And you're simply out of 
touch to refuse to let it run its course.

So from one Digest subscriber/businessperson to another,  get a grip. 
You've already achieved pariah-level notoriety.  You're not doing 
yourself, your business, nor the Digest any good.

Flame off!

Sorry to take up bandwidth, you guys.  But like a bad case of jock-
itch, I've been hoping that Schmidlyitis would die the death it 
deserved.  Consider this a bottle of castor oil down the throat of the 
demon.

Now back to our regular scheduled programming.

Regretfully,

Kinney Baughman                 | Beer used to be, now flaming is,
baughmankr at conrad.appstate.edu  | my business and I'm hard at work.


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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1991 14:26 EDT
From: BAUGHMANKR at CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU
Subject: Blow-off/skimming. From the books.


>From John DeCarlo:
 
>I am still convinced that I have read of a study that compared a
>blow-off with a conventional fermentation, and found the blow-off
>wort/beer to be deficient in some molecules that are considered
>good in beer.  I could swear this was done at UC Davis.  However,
>I can't find a reference, but some of my Beer & Brewing books are
>on loan.  So, I have to be content with a personal belief that
>blow-off makes your beer marginally less tasty.

>Anyway, I bring this up to the net to see if anyone can find a
>thorough study that either supports or refutes my belief.

Hi John:

I'll bet you knew I'd bite on this one.  John and I have discussed 
some of this before in Fidonet's Zymurgy forum.   Below is an edited 
version of some of those discussions. 

But before I begin:

>Because blowing off or skimming foam doesn't make a rat's *ss bit of 
>difference, IMHO.  (that ought to start a nice little flame war...) 
>Cheers! 
>Norm 

Sure.  Now that flaming is my business, here I go...  :-)

- -------

I admit the blow-off method is a much disputed technique.  My opinion 
comes from my own personal experience.  I definitely think my beers 
have improved from this system.  The point I usually make along these 
lines is to taste the brown scum that forms on the kraeusen head.  
Since never in my wildest dreams would I intentionally add anything so 
bitter to my beer on purpose, I've found comfort in letting the blow-
off method remove it for me.

John has made the point to me before that fermentation is a chemical,
not just a mechanical process and that perhaps some of those bitter 
consituents get processed in the course of fermentation.  That's a 
good point and I am in no position to say one way or the other. 

Still, looking at the literature, I find that skimming is at least 
advised in most of the brewing textbooks.  A look at my copy of 
_Malting and Brewing Science_, Page 652: (Discussion on the progress 
of primary fermentation...)  The head gradually collapses, leaving a 
dark-coloured, bitter-tasting scum  which should be separated from the 
beer by skimming or suction.  Some breweries arrange for this scum to 
stick to the roof of the fermenter and then be removed by special 
chutes at the side of the vessel.  Another suggestion is that plastic 
balls floating in the fermenter will retain the scum while the 
fermenter is drained.  (Interesting suggestion, huh?)" 

_The Practical Brewer_ also says that the beer should be skimmed, 
though more to collect the yeast than to remove bitter substances:
"As the fermentation proceeds, a head forms.... The yeast flocculates, 
rises to the top and is pre-skimmed during the next 24 hours leaving a 
layer of around 3-5 cm thickness behind.  One method of skimming or 
yeast collection is the use of a built-in funnel arrangement at the 
liquid level into which the yeast flows and is then transported 
through pipes to the yeast room.  Another method is the use of a 
mechanically operated board travelling over the liquid level pushing 
the yeast towards a collection point.  (I have seen systems like this 
in a couple of the breweries I've toured in Belgium.-krb)  Such systems 
often make use of vacuum pumps to collect the yeast."

I guess I'd argue at this point that even if they skim to collect the 
yeast, they're taking the bitter scum along with it as they do. 

An important point here is to do those things that you deem important 
to improving your beer, given your own personal experiences.  My early 
homebrews (pre-blow-off) suffered from a bitter astringency that I 
found objectionable.  The first beer I tried using the blow-off method 
didn't have it and I've never gone back. 

I do have a tendency to get on my soap-box about the blow-off method, 
though, so my apologies to all.  But I was falsely accused of blowing 
carboys a couple of years ago by none other than Zymurgy, the same 
guys who said it's OK to blow-off using siphon hose.  In my Less Than 
Humble Opinion,  that one section in _The Complete Joy of Homebrewing_
(an otherwise excellent book, I should add) has done more to cloud 
this issue than anything else.  But such is life... 

To wit,

>From Ken Johnson:

>Subject: Yeast poppers (the flying carboy cap)

>I just pitched a starter of Wyeast German Ale yesterday, and this morning I
>found the carboy cap laying next to the carboy and massive mounds of yeast
>and foam all over the floor.  I assume that the yeast took off really quickly,
>clogged up the cap, blew it off, and spewed.

>So here's the question:  What form of blowby allows the passage of yeasties
>and foam without clogging and becoming airborn?  I was using the 3/8" tube
>on the cap.

This is why Michael Lewis, of UC Davis, who first came up with the 
idea of the blow-off for homebrewers, advised stuffing 1" ID hose into 
the neck of a carboy.  Nothing will clog those suckers.  I'm extremely 
surprised that Charlie, knowing full well that his advice has caused 
hundreds of homebrewers to suffer the popped cork syndrome, refuses to 
amend that portion of his book. 

So spread the word.  Don't blow-off through siphon hose.  Regardless 
of what the "The Book" says.

Kinney Baughman                     |
baughmankr at conrad.appstate.edu      |           Back at work.


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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 13:13:06 EST
From: eisen at kopf.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Carl West)
Subject: Beasties in honey

My understanding is that micro-beasties dont *grow* in honey but 
they do *survive*, just waiting for the day when someone dilutes 
it with water and makes life liveable again. 

The very simplest way to make a mead is to mix a bunch o' honey 
and water together and let it go, no cooking, no quality control, 
no guarantees. The wild yeasts in the honey will do the job. 
I don't recommend it.

Carl West

WISL,BM.


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I don't remember).

I know it doesn't have anything to do with beer, but I couldn't let it pass.
(we,ve got four cats at home and they,re all very special to me)

Carl West

WISL,BM.


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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 14:47:12 -0500
From: lawson at BDCD102.nrl.navy.mil (Drew Lawson)
Subject: re: beer for the woods

Russ G. says:

> A good way to check would be to make a batch in the 
> spring, drink 5 or 6, sit naked in the woods in June, and count up your
> black fly bites.

Gee, I always end up naked in the woods after consuming 5 or 6
homebrews. ;-)

+------------------------------+--------------------------------------+
| Drew Lawson                  |  If you're not part of the solution, |
| lawson at bdcd102.nrl.navy.mil  |  you're part of the precipitate      |
| 71141.1660 at CompuServe.COM    |                                      |
+------------------------------+--------------------------------------+

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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1991 14:45 EDT
From: MIKE LIGAS <LIGAS at SSCvax.CIS.McMaster.CA>
Subject: Re: The Past Week

High fives to Jeanne Sova ASQNC-TAB-IS 5320 <jsova at APG-9.APG.ARMY.MIL>
for the posting "The past week". It was an idea that had crossed my mind but
I simply didn't have the guts. Someone else recently mentioned that the mood
of HD had changed recently and has been less-than-friendly at times. I agree.

It really doesn't matter how it all got started. Everyone involved is guilty
of fanning the flames. I enjoy reading HD. It can be informative and fun.
Unfortunately the recent rash of direct insults, insinuating subject headers,
string pulling and general impoliteness has left me considering cancelling my
subscription. It's probably best to send hostile letters directly to the person
one wishes to make miserable. The sense of personal vindication should be the
same and it'll clean up HD a little. Anyways, I doubt that many readers are
impressed or amused at how cunning and sarcastic other people can be. I only
speak from my own little soapbox but it is quite possible that I'd get solid
backing on this issue if I'd call for it.

I've taken the time to go through a few back issues and it's clear that EVERY
subscriber responds well to an alternate viewpoint provided it is stated
diplomatically. Let's all chill out, chill a few beers and slip in a smiley
every now and then :-)

				- Mike -

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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1991 14:48 EDT
From: MIKE LIGAS <LIGAS at SSCvax.CIS.McMaster.CA>
Subject: Chillers and Hangovers

>From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)

>> Well Jack, there are 2 types of wort chillers.

> Aparently, I invented a third.  If you take an emersion chiller and put it in 
> a bucket of water with a garden hose filling the bucket and the run-off, 
> running off, one could experiment with it both ways.

The homebrew world has actually heard of that one before, using an ice-water
slurry or cold running water as you mentioned. It works much like a counterflow
system but isn't as efficient as counterflow in achieving a rapid local drop in
temperature. Counterflow is the way to go if one is concerned about efficiency.
I know many brewers would attest that the method described by Jack or the
immersion chiller method are both easier to setup. I chose counterflow after
seeing a 'make-it-yourself' article in Zymurgy (I don't have the reference with
me) and I have had no headaches or problems with it. In the final analysis they
all work well and the important point is that chilling your wort by any method
available will help you make better beer. Go with the flow %-}

> From: dab at pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (dave ballard)
> Hey now-  In HBD #757 Mike Ligas writes:

>> From my simple understanding of the phenomenon,.... blah...blah ...blah...

> I write:

> When I was in school, one of the theories I heard about hangovers was that
> the headache part was caused by a loss of potassium.  The lack of potassium
> causes a dehydration of the mylan sheaths around nerve fibers and causes
> them to "short out" for lack of a better word.  What I started doing was
> drinking a ton of Gatorade before I went to bed and a little more ( 1/2 ton)
> when I got up.  Worked like a charm (still does, actually).  I guess you
> could munch a bananna or two if you don't dig Gatorade....

Hmmmmm .... we could be slowly developing the ultimate drinkers diet here on
HD. Time released B-vitamins, honey, Gatorade, bananas and water, water, water.
The problem is we're not leaving enough room for the beer! ;-)

Actually, I have heard that dehydration does lead to ion channel abnormalities
but dammit Dave, I'm a molecular biologist, not a physiologist/neurologist.
I'll check into it with a friend of mine who should know the answer. BTW, it's
myelin :-}

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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 15:06:26 -0500
From: lawson at BDCD102.nrl.navy.mil (Drew Lawson)
Subject: Honey priming and dry bacteria


Joel Avery sez:

JA> Make sure you boil the honey with some water to kill off any
JA> live cultures that might exist in the honey.

to which Jay Hersh asks
> I thought that due to it's extremely high osmotic pressure that
> bacteria wouldn't grow in honey. I don't know about molds or wild
> yeasts, and this may only effect growth in the honey and not on
> it's surface.  Anyone with any solid info out there??

It is true that bacteria and molds will not GROW in honey, since
the cells are unable to absorb any moisture.  However, they do
not automatically die.  They just lay dormant and wake up with
a killer case of cotton mouth, and set off to drink your beer.

+------------------------------+--------------------------------------+
| Drew Lawson                  |  If you're not part of the solution, |
| lawson at bdcd102.nrl.navy.mil  |  you're part of the precipitate      |
| 71141.1660 at CompuServe.COM    |                                      |
+------------------------------+--------------------------------------+

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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 15:05 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Re: Blowoff

Jack writes:
>BTW, I like skimming.  It makes me feel like I am contributing something to 
>the process.

I, personally, think that skimming is asking for an infection.
 
>How come Baderbrau pumps the chilled wort into a fermenter  and 30 days later 
>drains it off to be filtered and bottled?  They do not seem to be concerned 
>about the foam falling back in.  This is the beer that Jackson proclaimed the 
>best American Pilsner.

Just for the record, Baderbrau gives me a headache.  So does Samuel Adams,
for that matter.  Miller Lite (my unobtrusive, "what, you don't carry Sierra
Nevada?!?," lawnmower, wedding, bowling beer), does not.  Nor do any of the
Sierra Nevada, Sam Smith's, or Belgian brewery products.  Two Budweisers in
one night and the next morning I have a "looking for a gun to shoot myself"
headache!  One of these days I'll do the experiment right, including
duplicating meals the days of the drinking, and then having the beers
analyzed, to see what component the headache beers have in common.

I'd like to point out that in his last two posts, Jack seems to have taken
a considerably humbler tone.  Thanks, Jack.

Al.

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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 16:10:51 CST
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)


Subject: Comradery
From:George Fix

To Jeanne Sova:
I was deeply moved by your post in HBD#758. I feel, however, there is
another interpretation of "affaire de Schmidling". Imagine yourself in
a room with a bunch of people just learning to drive. Imagine someone
speaking to this group about the advantages of driving down one way streets
the wrong way at a high rate of speed. I suspect you might have 
something to say. Your comments might even become a bit pointed if
the speaker defensively insists that he has been using this procedure
all his life without harm.

I cannot tell you the number of times beginning home brewers have told
me at meetings about how much help people like Al,Jay,Jeff,Larry,
Mike,etc. have given them. All of these people have played a very
constructive role as mentors in the best sense of that term. There is a
home brewing community, and while it is quite diverse , a "tough crowd"
it is not. Be assured that the comradery among those men and women who
love and brew beer is as strong as ever. I sincerely hope that this 
aspect is visible to you.
 


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Date: 30 Oct 91 09:01:29 U
From: "Rad Equipment" <rad_equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Perception

Subject:  Perception                            Time:8:09 AM     Date:10/30/91
Jack Schmidling comments:

>>I use Bud as the low limit and Baderbrau as the upper.  Anything in >>between
is acceptable, if not necessarliy desirable.  I am not very >>sophisticated but
I can not drink bad beer, even if I made it.  As I >>certainly have made bad
beer on occasion, I know what lies beyond the >>lower limit.  I have, however
never made beer that tastes like cider or >>cardboard.

Jack, as far as "you" are concerned your beer has never tasted like cider or
cardboard.  These are flavors (along with many others found in beer) which
different people have different sensitivities to.  This is why I suggest you
have an independent palate, preferably one that has experience with homebrew,
taste your experimental brew against your control batch.  Many people like some
of the flavors/aromas which occur as "flaws" in brewing.  This is especially
true of fruity esters which show up in many ales.

As far as cardboard is concerned, it isn't so much the taste as the aroma which
exibits a character which comes closest to that of "wet cardboard".  This is
not to say that it "is" the smell of wet cardboard, but that, when many people
perceive it in beer, it "reminds" them of the smell of wet cardboard.  It is a
device to describe an off aroma in the brew, as are many other terms which
brewers use to verbalize what their senses tell them about beer.

If you are happy with your beer as it is, then keep on brewing as you are. 
However your position that things like oxidation and off flavors/aromas don't
exist or occur, simply because you have not experienced them, is poor science. 
 Perhaps your environment allows you to brew with a casual attitude towards
certain accepted practices and still succeed.  I have no idea since I don't
know you or your beer.  When you begin to get feedback from other brewers you
may get confirmation of your abilities, or you may find that there are some
things in your beer which you are not aware of.  Enter a competition where your
beer will be judged anonymously and then review the judges' comments with an
open mind.  Get a second opinion, Jack.

RW...

       Russ Wigglesworth              CI$:      72300,61
 |~~|  UCSF Medical Center            Internet: Rad Equipment at RadMac1.ucsf.edu
 |HB|\ Dept. of Radiology, Rm. C-324  Voice:    415-476-3668 / 474-8126 (H)
 |__|/ San Francisco, CA 94143-0628


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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1991 15:48 PDT
From: Bob Jones <BJONES at NOVA.llnl.gov>
Subject: Beer Styles

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am passing along the following comments from Micah Millspaw.  He 
reads copies of HBD I pass on to him via floppy disk, but has no 
access to the net. Any and all comments will be passed on to him. Me 
and my mail box will merely act as a conduit .
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  I am very disturbed by the many  references to making ALES 
 with BOTTOM fermenting yeasts and vice versa. Anyone out there 
 know your definitions of beer style? While it is possible to cold
 ferment with a top fermenting(ale) yeast, the resulting beverage is
 not a lager beer(maybe an alt though). The reference to a dark brown
 beer that was bottom fermented as an "obvious ale" is way off base.
 The color of a beer is the result of the grains used to make it, not
 the yeasts.
  Want to redefine your ale-lager values? Buy a bottle of EKU28
 (Germany) and a bottle of DUVEL(Belgium). Try these beers side by 
 side. The EKU28 is very dark, thick and malty, it is also a lager
 beer. The DUVEL is so pale that it is almost clear, and it is an 
 ale.
  Before making any more beer ignorant statements try reading some
 descriptive beer styles books, they are widely available.
                                  
                                        Micah Millspaw
                                        brewer at large
                                        Oct 30 91
 

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Date: 30 Oct 91 11:28:43 U
From: "Rad Equipment" <rad_equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Draught Guinness in a can!?

Subject:  Draught Guinness in a can!?!          Time:11:22 AM    Date:10/30/91
THIS IS NOT A COMMERCIAL ENDORSEMENT

I had the good fortune to be invited to attend a very special beer happening
(am I dating myself with that term?) recently by Tom Dahldorf of the California
Celebrator.  The event was Guinness' unveiling of their new product, Pub
Draught Guinness.  Now, I can hear the lot of you saying to yourselves "Yeah,
yeah, another 'draft beer in a can', big deal".  But this one is different. 
For the most part this product actually does what it is supposed to do!

Anyone who has had Guinness Stout on draught and from a bottle knows there is a
vast difference between the two brews.  The brewery makes no secret of the fact
that the recipes are different not only between the kegged version and the
bottled, but also between different bottled markets.  Now the folks at Guinness
have developed a system which dispenses their stout from a can in such a way as
to rival a pub tap.  They have been working on this for some 20 years and the
final method was preceded by over 100 failed attempts.

The problem has always been the fact that draught Guinness is (or should be)
dispensed with a mixture of Nitrogen and CO2 gasses rather than the
conventional CO2 alone.  The nitrogen is used because it makes very fine
bubbles while it is not absorbed into the brew as the CO2 is, thus it does not
"over-carbonate" the beer.  Also a special faucet is preferred which, in
combination with the gasses, creates that wonderful creamy brown head which
lasts to the bottom of the glass.  The new can combines the original kegged
stout recipe with technology which creates the draught effect to a tee.

Dr. Alan Forage, creator of the technology, was on hand to explain the
mechanics of the new can.  This is the way the system works:  The 16.9 ounce
can (containing 14.9 ounces of beer) is fitted with a small plastic device
(Guinness calls it a "smoothifier") which sits in the bottom of the can.  This
device has a pocket or cavity which is open to the atmosphere via a pin hole in
its top.  The can is evacuated of oxygen and filled with beer.  Prior to
sealing the can, a dose of liquid nitrogen is added to the beer.  The can is
closed and as the liquid nitrogen warms a pressure is created.  The pressure
forces about 1% of the beer and nitrogen into the plastic cavity.   When the
can is opened, the pressure is released and the small amount of beer in the
cavity is forced back through the pinhole quite violently.  The agitation
created by this "geyser" mixes the nitrogen with the beer in such a way as to
reproduce the tap handle character.  Open up the first empty can you have in
order to see what the "smoothifier" looks like.

Prior to serving, the beer must be chilled.  Guinness suggests a two hour stint
in a refrigerator, with a target serving temperature of 45-50 degrees (if
opened while warm, the beer gushes with excess force).  This is the one area
where flavor will be variable since most American refrigerators hold their
temperatures closer to 35-40 degrees.  We all know the colder the beer the less
the flavors are perceptible.  Education will be the key here.  The entire
contents should be emptied into a 16 ounce glass.  The head which forms is
exactly like that of the draught version.  And yes, it does last to the bottom
of the glass.

How does it taste?  In my opinion, this is virtually the same as what you get
at a well maintained pub.  The texture is right on.  The flavor is wonderful. 
I suspect there may be some slight differences as a result of the volume of the
package (14.9 ounces vs. 15.5 gallons) but I didn't notice any.  According to
Declan Maguire, group marketing director of Guinness Import Company here in the
U.S., extensive taste comparisons were made throughout Ireland and England
during the development of the product.  This includes side-by-side blind
tastings with the original version.

The cans come in packages of 4.  The suggested price is $5.99.  The stout is 4%
alcohol by volume.  Guinness is releasing the new product in the San Francisco,
Chicago, and Baltimore/Washington D.C. areas to begin with.  Locally, Safeway
stores are carrying it at $3.00/2 cans.  The cans can be recycled just like
other aluminum ones.  I suspect the insert is made from the same plastic which
is used to coat the inside of the can and will burn off during the recycling
process.

Congratulations to Guinness on the success of this new package.

RW...



       Russ Wigglesworth              CI$:      72300,61
 |~~|  UCSF Medical Center            Internet: Rad Equipment at RadMac1.ucsf.edu
 |HB|\ Dept. of Radiology, Rm. C-324  Voice:    415-476-3668 / 474-8126 (H)
 |__|/ San Francisco, CA 94143-0628


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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 16:52 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Re: oxidized beer

At the risk of beating a dead horse...

larryba writes:
>Anyway, my recipe for oxidized doctored beer was a attempt in helping
>you understand the oxidized flavor/aroma in beer so you would be
>better equiped to detect it in your homebrew beer.  I don't necessarily
>think that you will detect oxidation in your "mishandled" beer.  Why?
>Because it is my belief that if you have
>active yeast in your beer, oxidation may not be an issue.  Beer that
>is primed and bottled has live yeast in it.  Live yeast is very
>reductive (?) and chews up the oxygen + reduces the oxidized
>components.  I have heard that damaged beer can be revived by adding
>fresh wort, yeast and letting it re-ferment.

I made this same mistake once myself and was corrected by several
kind souls on the Digest.  My mistake was to state that, since the
beer was yet to be fermented, aerating hot wort was OK.  Several
posters corrected me by saying that, since the wort was hot, the
oxidation reactions took place much faster and that the wort should
be cooled to below 80F before aerating.  When I began doing this
(mind you this was more than 3 years ago), I finally brewed my first
light-colored beer.  All my previous beers were very brown even
though I used the same ingredients!  My palate was not as developed
as it is now, but I faintly recall a sherry-like flavor in all those
early beers.  I guess I just thought it belonged in my beer and didn't
question it.

I don't know if it's true that the yeast "reduces the oxidized
components."  I had never heard this, but would agree with you
that oxidation after fermentation is much more serious than
oxidation before fermentation.  I would be interested to know
if that reduction really does take place.

Al.
korz at ihlpl.att.com


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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 17:14 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Re: Counterflow Chillers

Kinney writes--
>>3. I, personally, would not want to start a siphon (with my mouth (besides
>>the sanitation risk) or by other means (turkey baster, etc.)) on a 170+ F
>>liquid!
>
>Me neither.  That's why I (a) either let the clorox water that's 
>inside the chiller start the siphon or (b) insert a small 2" piece of 
>3/8" tubing into the end of the siphon hose and suck on it.  When the 
>wort approaches the mouth, pinch the hose shut, remove the tubing, and 
>direct the flow to the fermenter.

I'll bet you meant 2' (have you seen "This is Spinal Tap?").  Either
that or you're a much better siphoner than I.  ;^)
>
>With the 
>counterflow, you can start siphoning into the fermenter immediately.  
>With the immersion, you have to wait 20 or 30 minutes for the wort to 
>chill before you can begin the siphon. 

Good point!  I hadn't thought of that.  All in all, it's 6 of 1, 
half a dozen of the other.  The bottom line is: wort chillers
improve your homebrew.  I'm convinced of it.

Al.


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Date: Fri, 08 Nov 91 19:18:56 EST
From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu>
Subject: No flames here..


Bill Crick sezius:
>A lot of people are flaming Mr Schmidling. However when you try so hard to 
>show him how smart you are, you are telling all he needs to know for his
>little commercial enterprise. YOu are in effect providing him with a lot
>of free consulting service???

Has Charlie Papazian gotten rich from Homebrew Videos or books, or Greg Noonan,
or Fred Eckhardt, or George Fix, or Byron Burch, or Darryl Richman (well at 
least he's a rich man :-)?? No, so I'm not worried about giving some free
advice to someone who IMHO needs it. I am however worried of countering the
flow of what is IMHO BAD information. And if you think I flame him (I rebut him
in this forum) please read rec.crafts.brewing (where I strongly rebut him).
My understanding of flaming is open derogatory aspersions cast on the other
party with no bearing whatsoever to the issue at hand. Trying to keep this
civil in the HBD at least, while countering what I feel to be an incursion
of impolite disinformation.

 - JaH


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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 19:23:19 EST
From: Mark Stevens <stevens at stsci.edu>
Subject: Beer Expo in D.C.

A friend just passed this announcement on to me....I thought it 
might interest others on the net....

>>>>>>COMMERCIAL DISCLAIMER<<<<<<<<<<
I have nothing whatsoever to do with any of the organizers or
sponsors of this event. I'm just posting it because it's beer-
related news that might interest fellow beer drinkers and
brewers on the net...if you need info, call the number at the end.
>>>>>>>END DISCLAIMERS NOW!<<<<<<<<<<


            .            THE 2nd EAST COAST
                        BEER AND AND WINE EXPO 

                 Microbreweries, Beer, Brew Supplies,
                 Wineries, Wine, Winemaking Supplies,
                      Food, Crafts, and more...

Featuring - Charlie Papazian, Homebrewing Pioneer, Author,
                  and President of the A.H.A.!!!!!

          Charlie will be delivering the Keynote Address to open
                the show and will be on hand to sign copies of his
                NEW book (avail. at the show), and chat about beer!

   Saturday December 7, 1991     Free Seminars will be held all day!
   Ticket price: $7.00           children under 12 free.
   Show starts at 11:00 am. runs until 6 pm.

  -------->>>   at the  Washington D.C. Hilton       <<<-------------
             on Connecticut Avenue at Columbia Road

Exhibits from Brew Clubs, Wineries, and Vendors.

Tickets are available at Brew Masters in Rockville, MD  (301)984-9557
and directly from DNA Productions - call for details.
24 hour DNA Hotline - (703) 471-1694

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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 17:58 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Re: immersion efficiency

Jack writes--
>I received a flyer in the mail from The Home Brewery claiming that their 
>emersion chiller will chill 5 gallons to pitching temp in 15 min.  It looks 
>like about 7 turns of 1/4 copper tubing.  This seems utterly preposterous.  
>Can someone save me the trouble of proving it.

Yes it's possible.  It depends, remember, on your tapwater temperature.
Mine is 50' of 3/8" OD (I believe) and I get down to 75F in 20 min.

Jack quotes Mike--
>>FWIW, Jack pointed out that commericalism is OK on Internet so I thought
>I'd just add my $0.02.

I don't think it's OK here.

>Perhaps we should post information about this video on a regular basis.

Perhaps not, Mike.

I'd like to point out that Kinney Baughman is Mr. BrewCap, BrewHeat,
and BrewChiller and has always (to the best of my recollection) been
very non-commercial in his discussions of these products.

Al.


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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 20:28:30 CST
From: hopduvel!john at linac.fnal.gov (The Hop Devil)
Subject: (bloated) Gloating at Weinkeller :-)

Korz writes <gloat on> and drinks beer at Chicagos Weinkeller:

At least you didnt go for the expensive stuff...

(could not locate Liefman's Goudenband on their list)
Duvel -        $5.25
Fullers ESB -  $4.00
SS Oatmeal -   $4.75
Orval -        $8.25
4 beer total  $22.25

They were out of the 'exotic' stuff I was interested in trying when I
was there, like Mort Subite (was $11.00 a bottle so I didn't get angry).
(I'm not flamin', I like the place and their beer)

Think I mosey on down to the basement and pick out a homebrew;-)

- -- 
John, The Hop Devil                       
renaissance scientist and AHA/HWBTA certified Beer Judge 

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Date: Sat, 9 Nov 91 11:17 CST
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: STUFF

 
 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu>
 
 Jack sez:
 
 > 1.  The batch size is critical.  The carboy must be "full" in order to blow
 > out all the foam but not so full that a lot of wort is lost.
 >
 > This may seem like a simple problem when making up an extract batch wherein
 > brewing water can be added to top it off or make up the full wort.  Even
 > then, I would guess that, what works in winter would be an explosion in warm
 > weather.
 
 <Why do you speculate this, what effect would the season have on how blow-off
 works?? I don't see the connection. Please explain, I have never noticed any
 seasonal difference, but my abode maintains reasonably close summer and winter
 room temps.
 
 You seem to have answered your own question.  I brew in the basement with an 
 annual temperature range of 50 to 80 degrees.  This obviously affects the 
 vigor of the fermentation and the level to which one can fill the carboy to 
 control wort loss.
 
 From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
 Subject: Re: cloves
 
 >There are two strains of yeast that are known to produce clove flavors:  S. 
 delbrueckii (the Bavarian wheat beer yeast) and S. diastaticus (a 
 superattenuating wild yeast).
 
 Thanks for the comments.  However, one of the things I find most confusing in 
 this discussion about yeast is use of the term "strain".  In any science that 
 I am aware of (we are talking botany with yeast), the word strain is used to 
 identify a predictable and known variation of a species.
 
 For example, bread yeast and ale yeast are variations (different strains) of 
 Saccharomyces cerevisiae, a single species.
 
 You have identified two different species.   It's like the difference between 
 a rose bush and an apple tree (same genus, different species) as compared to 
 a red rose and a pink one (same species, different strains).
 
 This may seem like trivia but I suggest that it is far more relevant to 
 understanding beer characteristics than whether one says "blow-out" or "blow 
 off".  In one case, it offends science; in the other, just shop talk.
 
 
js

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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 11:52:46 EST
From: ajenkins at phoenix.pub.uu.oz.au (Adam Jenkins)
Subject: Ginger Beer



Hi

Does anyone out there have any good recipes for ginger beer or other non
alcoholic drinks?  It's mainly ginger beer recipes I'm after though...once
made a really great batch but lost the recipe :(

Happy brewing..
Adam

- -- 
      Adam Jenkins  Melbourne, Australia  ajenkins at phoenix.pub.uu.oz.au
         "Well it looks as if the top part fell on the bottom part" 
    Dan Quayle, my idol, commenting on the San Francisco earthquake of 89      

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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 11:52:46 EST
From: ajenkins at phoenix.pub.uu.oz.au (Adam Jenkins)
Subject: Ginger Beer



Hi

Does anyone out there have any good recipes for ginger beer or other non
alcoholic drinks?  It's mainly ginger beer recipes I'm after though...once
made a really great batch but lost the recipe :(

Happy brewing..
Adam

- -- 
      Adam Jenkins  Melbourne, Australia  ajenkins at phoenix.pub.uu.oz.au
         "Well it looks as if the top part fell on the bottom part" 
    Dan Quayle, my idol, commenting on the San Francisco earthquake of 89      

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Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1991 21:26 EDT
From: MIKE LIGAS <LIGAS at SSCvax.CIS.McMaster.CA>
Subject: Poetic End

   **************************************************************************
   *               Meum est propositum in taberna mori,                     *
   *               Uinam sit appositum sitienti ori:                        *
   *               Ut dicant cum uenerint angelorum cori                    *
   *               "Deus sit propitius isti potatori".                      *
   *                                                                        *
   *     I desire to end my days in a tavern drinking,                      *
   *     May some Christian hold for me the glass when I am shrinking;      *
   *     That the Cherubim may cry, when they see me sinking,               *
   *     "God be merciful to a soul of this gentleman's way of thinking."   *
   *                                                                        *
   *                         - Archipoeta -                                 *
   **************************************************************************


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #760, 11/14/91
*************************************
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