---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  ab tours in newark? (dave ballard)
  licorice root use (STAFINIAK)
  Margarita's Moult Scotch Ale (Bill Slack)
  Zip City and NJ Homebrewing (GC Woods)
  re: Hop efficiency algorithms (darrylri)
  re: Canning Wort (darrylri)
  Hangover Beers and Cloves (MIKE LIGAS)
  The Beer Hunter on Discovery Channel (martin wilde)
  Bottling cane, and cidery flavor. (Jeff McGowan)
  Fast Attenuation (martin wilde)
  BrewCap System (b11!mspe5!guy)
  Re: Potassium tablets (dbell)
  Bottle color (Norm Hardy)
  Portland brewpubs (Jerry Gaiser)
  Sir Kenelm Digby, Kt. -- and ?Quinine Beer? (Jacob Galley)
  STUFF (Jack Schmidling)
  Skunks caused by rough transportation? ("DRCV06::GRAHAM")
  Re:  Welding Stainless - A Warning (steve)
  I'm Back ("Rad Equipment")
  I'm Back                              Time:9:46 AM     Date:11/12/91
  Stainless Steel Fermenters (Alan Gerhardt)
  Devner/Vail Pubs (boubez)
  Sunstruck Flavor (Dave Suurballe)
  Homebrew Digest Submission (Mark James Easter)
  Germs and Spores in Honey (HBD 758) (Jean Hunter)
  Yeast Haze (caitrin lynch)
  Messages Received
  Yeast Haze Again (caitrin lynch)
  HBD (joshua.grosse)
  Re: Homegrown Hops (Brian Capouch)
  Re: Coriander, leaf or seed? (Brian Capouch)
  Sam Smiths Nut Brown (CCL-F) <dskeldon at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
  oxidation, priming, and the Crabtree Effect (Mark Sandrock)
  Yeasts, and ordering advice (IO10676)
  Bubbles (TSAMSEL)
  Homebrew Digest #760 (November 14, 1991) (gkushmer)
  beer is good for you!? (Russ Gelinas)


Send submissions to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues!]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 1991   6:32 EST
From: dab at pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (dave ballard)
Subject: ab tours in newark?


Hey now-  Does anyone know if the Anheiser Busch plant in Newark (NJ) 
gives tours, and if so, who can I contact?


Iko...

dab

=====================================================================
dave ballard				"maybe you had too much too fast."
dab at pyuxe.cc.bellcore



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Date: Mon, 11 Nov 91 09:05:22 CST
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)

SUBJ:Yeast in beer bottles

Larry (Re- HBD #757):
You are right. Bottle conditioned beers are usually not as quick
to stale as those which do not contain yeast. Kiren has a new
product called Fine Draft where a small amount of fresh yeast has
been added at fill in beer that has already been carbonated. They
report that the shelf life is triple what they normally achieve. As
you might expect, the procedure can backfire if defective or old
yeast is used. They also found that high levels of air uptake during
fill can totally negate the advantage of the yeast. A summary of their
experience can be found in MBAA Tech. Qr., Vol.28, No.2, 1991. Maybe
there is something here for those of us producing "sediment free"
homebrew to think about.

Father Barleywine's "yeast cake" procedure was apparantely used by
some small commercial breweries around the turn of the century.
Charley Liebermann, a brewer from the old school, discusses the
pros and cons of this and related procedures in a highly readable
article titled "Yeast Management". It appeared in Brewers Digest
a few years ago. 
     


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Date: Mon, 11 Nov 91 10:43 EST
From: STAFINIAK at hermes.psycha.upenn.edu
Subject: licorice root use

I just bought some licorice root that I thought might be nice in a h-brew.
Does anybody out there have any experience using it?  Specifically, I'd like
to know how much to use, when to add it to the wort, whether or not I sould
'debark' it.  Any suggestions would be appreciated!

						Thanks in advance,

						Paul

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Date: Mon, 11 Nov 91 09:39:32 EST
From: hplabs!decwrl!inetgw!decvax!wslack!wrs (Bill Slack)
Subject: Margarita's Moult Scotch Ale


Here are my  brewing  notes  from  a recipe that seems to be turning out
very nicely.

                              Batch #53

Made 10/19/91, bottled 11/2/91, 4 gallons.
    
Comments:  Margarita's Moult Scotch Ale.  An all grain (well,  it  has a
pound of DME in it) Scotch  Ale,  designed  by Joel Bauman and brewed by
him, me and Dan Hall.  Half  way  through the process, I discovered that
Margarita,  my  pet Mexican Redleg Tarantula, had moulted.    Hence  the
name.  Eight lbs.  English 2 row pale  malt, 1 1/2 lbs.  English crystal
(40 L.), 1 oz.  chocolate malt, 1/2 lb.   dark  brown  sugar, 1 lb.  M&F
light dried malt extract, 1 1/2 oz.  Kent Goldings (4.7  Alpha), 1/2 oz.
Styrian Goldings, 14 gm.  Whitbread dry ale yeast.
    
Added 1  tsp.    gypsum  (Nashua water is very soft) to 2 1/2 gal water,
brought to 165F, added to the grains and doughed in at 152F.    
    
Mashed for 75 minutes (152 to 148F).
    
Mashed out with  3  quarts  boiling  water, giving a temp.  of 160F (was
shooting for 165).
    
Drew off a quart and recirculated. Repeated nine more times.
    
Sparged with five gallons water and 1 tsp.  gypsum at 168F.  Gravity was
only 1.055 so decided  to  include  1  lb.   light M&F DME.  Started the
boil.
    
At boiling, added the DME and 1/2 lb.  dark brown sugar.
    
At 15 minutes into the boil, added 1 1/2 oz.  Kent Goldings (Alpha 4.7).
    
At 62 minutes, gravity was 1.070 and volume was low, so added a gal.  of
boiling water.
    
At 73 minutes, added 1/2 oz. Styrian Goldings (unknown Alpha).
    
At 90 minutes, started wort chilling .
    
After  53  minutes  of chilling, racked to  carboy,  aerated  by  gently
sloshing the fermenter.
    
Rehydrated  Whitbread  ale  yeast in sterile water for  a  few  minutes,
pitched,  sloshed carboy again, installed airlock.  Estimated OG  1.070.
Four gallons.  Krausen formed overnight, fell in another day and a half.
    
After 14 days, bottled with 1/2 cup corn sugar.   Final  gravity  1.019.
Looks nice, malty smell and taste, noticeably alcoholic, a little harsh.  

It's been in the bottle  a  little  over  a  week now and is starting to
smooth out.  I wish I had made more of this.   I  like  the  Scotch  Ale
style,  especially  now  that  cool weather is coming.  Anyone have a SA
recipe they  would like to share?  Anyone have a source of real Scottish
grains?

BTW, we used Dan's 200,000  BTU  Blowtorch-from-hell  Cajun Cooker.  This
thing is really intimidating!!  At the lowest setting it boiled the full
wort in something like seven minutes!  Don't  get  one  of  these unless
you're doing industrial level brewing!  We also discovered  that boiling
wort on the back porch attracts yellow jackets.  They swarmed around the
brewpot and kept drowning themselves in our beer glasses whenever we set
one down.

Bill
- --                              ________________________________________
  Bill Slack                   | Fine Fermentations From                |
  wslack!wrs at gozer.mv.com      | Five Farmers Trail                     |
  uunet!mv!gozer!wslack!wrs    |_Nashua NH 03062__________(603)882-3190_|


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Date: 11 Nov 91 10:14:21 EST (Mon)
From: GC Woods <gcw at garage.att.com>
Subject: Zip City and NJ Homebrewing


For the NYC area HBD folks, the "Zip City Brewpub" will be opening
November 21. The address is 3 West 18th Street (NYC) and phone # is 
212-366-6333. Our homebrew club president was recently at the pub
judging for a local competition and said they are making excellent lagers.

But the big news is HOMEBREWING IS NOW LEGAL IN THE PEOPLES REPUBLIC OF
NEW JERSEY. Yes the homebrewing bill finally passed last Thursday.
The limits are the same as federal law, but there is yearly permit
required just like wine ($3/yr). To give you an idea how much effort is
spent enforcing the permits - there were less than 200 wine permits
issued last year and I'm sure that in the Peoples Rep. of NJ that $600
is more than enough money to justify a full time person to log them.
If anyone is truly interested in getting a permit you'll have to wait
because the state assembly hasn't wasted enough time in meetings to decide 
how they want to set up the permit system!

There is also some judge in Cape May, who owns the Queen Victoria Bed &
Breakfast (this place is beautiful) and wants to take on the noble cause
of making brewpubs legal in NJ. I hope he can do it because we are down 
to just 2 brewers in NJ - Anheuser-Busch in Newark and Clements in
Vernon.

					Geoff Woods


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Date: Mon Nov 11 08:43:12 PDT 1991
From: darrylri at microsoft.com
Subject: re: Hop efficiency algorithms

strasser at raj3.tn.cornell.edu (Tom Strasser) writes:
> So Darryl (or whoever), while we're on the subject, what do you think of 
Rager's
> vs. Burch's kettle hop utilization numbers?  From personal results, I'm in
> Burch's corner on this one.  For those unfamiliar, these two
> sources vary considerably in the 25 to 45 minute boiling time regime.
> While these numbers are approximations which will vary from batch to
> batch, we the homebrewers have to start with a number somewhere, and then
> adjust our results accordingly.

I think that Burch's published numbers are very generalized;  I think that 
Rager's density adjustment is a fudge factor;  and I think that no formula 
could hope to cover the myriad of different variables that occur in hop 
utilization for any broad sweep of homebrewers.  In particular, while it is 
very interesting to know exactly how the curve flows, I would also wonder 
aloud how often and how much hops are being added in this time period.

In talking to Dr. Fix, he has pointed out that variables such as wort pH, 
kettle geometry, and boiling temperature and pressure can have a tremendous 
effect on hop utilization.  So, a tall kettle with a small surface area in 
relation to its volume is probably more efficient.  Folks at sea level might 
use less hops than those at the top of the Rockies.

If you have used the Brewer's Worksheet spreadsheet I uploaded a while back 
(it's in the archive at mthvax and sumex-aim, and is a Macintosh-Excel 
spreadsheet, but Art Steinmetz produced a converted copy for PC 1-2-3), you 
would note that hop utilization for pellets and for flowers are factors that 
the user must enter.  Even then, the whole IBU calculation is of first order 
value only.  Perhaps that ought to be 0th order, since I would only guess 
that this yeilds in the right 5 IBUs or so, with careful tasting against 
controls for a particular brewery.  Beware of too many decimal places!

I can only say that the Brewer's Worksheet uses a very simple formula, 
essentially the same as Rager's (some might argue that Rager's article 
wasn't as clear as it might have been), minus the gravity adjustment, and I 
was able to "tune" it for my brewery so I could predict bitterness in 
relation to commercial examples, using a full wort boil.  I suspect that it 
could be tuned to reach approximate values for most other breweries as well, 
at least to the extent that it is useful for predictive efforts.

		--Darryl Richman


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Date: Mon Nov 11 09:01:38 PDT 1991
From: darrylri at microsoft.com
Subject: re: Canning Wort

Bill Pemberton gives us his pressure canning procedure for saving wort 
for starters.  I just wanted to note that I use a boiling water bath 
canning (the closed jars are boiled for 15 minutes in an open pot and 
then allowed to cool), and have never had a problem, even with some of 
the jars lasting 6 months.  Because my procedures tend to leave 1/2-1 
gallon in the kettle after transfering (15 gallon batch size), along 
with hops and break material, I filter this out and generally cut it 
half with water to get low gravity starters, and then can in quarts and 
pints.

Also, I think someone else (sorry!) discussed their starter methodology, 
which involved taking Wyeast into a 12 oz. container and then a 22 oz. 
size before pitching for 5 gallons.  This is really more effort than is 
required, since the yeast can generally build up through 4 or 5 
doublings pretty quickly.  So I would advise putting the Wyeast packet 
into a quart starter and then using that to pitch directly into a 5 
gallon batch.  I use about 1/2 gallon for my 15 gallon batches and get 
very good results.

		--Darryl Richman


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Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1991 12:40 EDT
From: MIKE LIGAS <LIGAS at SSCvax.CIS.McMaster.CA>
Subject: Hangover Beers and Cloves

From: florianb at chip.cna.tek.com

>Yesterday,  MIKE LIGAS <LIGAS at SSCvax.CIS.McMaster.CA> said, in part,

>>From my simple understanding of the phenomenon, the main culprit is
>>dehydration with some credit going to vasodilation in the skull. Both alcohol
>>and fusels along with some amines are the cause. The liver, that wonderful
>>detoxification ...

>Comments well-taken.  The trouble I have with this theory is that it
>doesn't explain the correlation to types or brands of beer.  Below is
>a list of beers that give me a headache:

Florian also provided a list of beers which do not give him headaches which
included, thank Gambrinus, homebrew. ;-}  I've also noticed this phenomenon
but I haven't documented the beers as well as Florian. The best I can say is
that, for me, the culprits seem to be beers brewed with corn or corn sugar as
adjuncts. Yes, that means I'm not a big fan of many Mexican beers and I use
corn sugar only sparingly in my homebrew. Chalk this one up as another reason
to brew beer at home! :-D

From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)

>>Jack I'm not sure what to make of this reply, I think you may have
>>misunderstood. The cloviness comes from the YEAST  not the wheat malt...,
 
>Well, I do not have the original but I could have sworn that the clove was 
>connected to wheat.  I have made mistake before....

No mistake. The "Troubleshooters" Special Edition of Zymurgy does state that
clove flavours can come from using wheat malt. The intense clove flavour in
Weizen is however the product of fermenting with S. delbrueckki.

				- Mike -

PS: Beautiful recipe posting Lee!

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Date: Mon, 11 Nov 91 9:52:34 PST
From: martin at daw_302.hf.intel.com (martin wilde)
Subject: The Beer Hunter on Discovery Channel

It was mentioned in HBD #757 that the Michael Jackson series 
"The Beer Hunter" will be shown on the Discovery Channel this
Fall.  If someone finds out when this will be shown, could they
let us know???  I would hate to miss it...  By the way, none
of the video stores carry it (yet?)

Martin Wilde

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Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1991 09:52 EDT
From: Jeff McGowan <MCGOWAN at esb.com>
Subject: Bottling cane, and cidery flavor.

To Jeff Frane : thanks for the suggestion of buying a bottling cane - we
actually did it already and used it last weekend to bottle an ale.  The
difference in energy expended and hair pulled out was amazing - I would
*definitely* recommend one to any beginner!
The India Pale Ale we bottled two weeks ago, which had  a slight cidery taste
last week, had none at all this weekend!  From what I have read here, I assume
this is not  terribly unusual, right?  It seems that it *is* worthwile to let
the beer age for at least a little while in the bottles (if you can).
Probably a silly question - how  do commercial breweries which produce
natrually carbonated beers which are not bottle conditioned get the carbonation
in the bottle?  Do they do part of the fermentation in a sealed container to
carbonate the beer before bottling, then bottle under pressure after filtering? 
Just curious.

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Date: Mon, 11 Nov 91 9:55:11 PST
From: martin at daw_302.hf.intel.com (martin wilde)
Subject: Fast Attenuation

I was reading that Widmer Beers are fermented at 68 degrees for
4 days and then lagered at 41 degrees for 3 days before kegging.

What type of yeast attenuates this quickly?  Is it because they
inject oxygen into their fermenter to get the yeast to take off
quickly and thus ferment fast?

Martin Wilde
martin at daw_302.hf.intel.com

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Date: Mon, 11 Nov 91 13:28:34 CST
From: ingr!b11!mspe5!guy at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: BrewCap System

    The BrewCap system gets mentioned in the digest from time to time and I've
seen it advertised in several of the suppliers' catalogs.  Does anyone have any
literature on it that explains its operation?  I'm not totally clear on how it
works.  Is there any place I could write (or call) to get documentation on it,
perhaps with diagrams?  I have had a mild interest in it for some time but I'd
like to understand a bit more about it before possibly purchasing one.  Thanks
for any pointers.

- -- 
==============================================================================
 Guy D. McConnell, Systems Engineer |            |"All that is gold does not
 Intergraph Corp.  Mail Stop CR1105 |     My     | glitter, not all those who
 Huntsville, AL. 35894-0001         |  opinions  | wander are lost, the old
 Computer and Storage Technology    |  are just  | that is strong does not
 Evaluation  Group                  |  exactly   | wither, and deep roots are
 uunet!ingr.com!b11!mspe5!guy       |    that.   | not touched by the frost."
 (205)730-6289   FAX (205)730-6011  |            |                   J.R.R.T.
==============================================================================


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Date: Mon, 11 Nov 91 12:26:49 PST
From: dbell at cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Potassium tablets

Al Richer asks:

> A friend recently gave me a 500-tablet bottle of potassium supplements. I
>was wondering if I could use this stuff as a water hardener, considering the
>price was right...8*)
> The contents of the tablets are:
> Potassium: 99 mg.
> There are mentions of other goodies, like stearic acid, magnesium stearate
>and silica, but heaven only knows what THAT stuff's in there for, as the
>potassium is in the form of potassium gluconate.

Sounds like most of the "stuff" is to make it a tablet... Basically, they
are binders and fillers. Dunno about using the gluconate as a "hardener".
Maybe a better use would be as a hangover remedy!  :{)

Dave

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Date: Mon, 11 Nov 91 12:10:00 PST
From: polstra!norm at uunet.UU.NET (Norm Hardy)
Subject: Bottle color

The first (annual?) Novembeer fest took place last weekend; sponsered
by the Brews Brothers of Seattle.  Several certified judges from the NW,
including Canada, did a good job.  

The judges doing the pilsener category really slammed the entries with
green bottles.  One judge wrote "green bottles are the kiss of death" on
one such entry.  I think the bottle color affected their perception of the
beer.  

Perhaps Darryl R can give some insights from his table (bitters).  My duties
were to aid in the data entry for the scores.

Oh, the top two beers (of 83 entries) went to Rob Nelson, Brews Brother,
and the steward in charge of sorting the beers upon arrival.  Maybe he
tweaked the computer's scores (just kidding, the judges knew what they
liked).

Norm Hardy


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Date: Mon, 11 Nov 91 8:28:15 PST
From: jerry at jaizer.hf.intel.com (Jerry Gaiser)
Subject: Portland brewpubs

>Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 10:50:08 EST
>From: Chris Shenton <chris at endgame.gsfc.nasa.gov>
>Subject: Portland pubs?
>
>Yeah, another request for beer joints. (That's Portland OR, not Maine).
>
>I checked Schuster/Jackson last night, and he says Portland and Seattle are
>beer meccas in the US. Help me out -- what are your favorite haunts?
>
>Thanks...

I can give you my completely unbiased opinion..  :-)

First off, anything in the McMenamin's empire is good starting place.
The Brothers Beer have something like 26 pubs/brewpubs in Oregon of
which all but about 4 are in the Portland Metro area. The food is
standard hamburger fare and the beer is good to excellent and if your
drinking the house brews, fresh.

    Mission Theatre & Pub                    Free Movies with the brews.
    1624 NW Glisan

    Blue Moon Tavern                         Down on Yuppie row.
    432 NW 21st.

    The Cornelius Roadhouse and Brewery      In an 1859 farmhouse
    Sunset Highway and Cornelius Pass Rd.
    (Take Hiway 26 west from Portland about 20 min.)

    Edgefield Manor                          Not completely open yet.
    East of Portland in the Gresham area.   
    Former Poor Farm/Old Folks home.

Next is my favorite place for a Saturday evening. An eclectic variety of
music, no cover, no smoking, killer pizza and good fresh beer.

    Bridgeport Brewpub
    1313 NW Marshall
    NW Marshall between 13th and 14th

And last the small pub connected to Portland Brewing Co. (so small that
the stage for the weekend music is located on a balcony above everything.)

    Portland Brewing Co./Brewpub
    1339 NW Flanders

There are lots more, but these are from my personal experience. I'm sure
you'll hear from some of the other Portland people.

- -- 
***************************************************************************
* Jerry Gaiser (N7PWF)              -- Relax. Don't worry. Have a homebrew*
* jerry at jaizer.intel.com                                                  *
* PBBSnet: n7pwf at n7pwf.#pdx.or.usa.na                                     *
*          n7pwf at n7pwf.ampr.org [44.116.0.68]                             *
*            Dogs and old men thrive on monotony -- Baxter Black          *
***************************************************************************


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Date: Mon, 11 Nov 91 20:10:17 CST
From: Jacob Galley <gal2 at midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Sir Kenelm Digby, Kt. -- and ?Quinine Beer?

Hi all. First, thanks for all the help with my little questions. My
Wyeast got going the very minute I sent my last panicky note. (All it
took was a little of that Preventitive Murphy's Law.) I got a good
deal on a carboy: $5 a pop at Bonne Sante in Hyde Park. They don't
have them very often though. Call ahead.

Now, another recipe from _The Closet of Sir Kenelme Digbie, Kt.
Opened_ (London: H. Brome, 1669) since the last one seemed quite
popular. This is from page 94. (Reproduced without permission,
naturally.)

A RECEIPT FOR METHEGLIN OF MY LADY WINDEBANKE
Take four Gallons of water; add to it, these Herbs and Spices
following. Pellitory of the Wall, Sage, Thyme, of each a quarter of a
handful, as much Clove gilly-flowers, with half as much Borage and
Bugloss flowers, a little Hyssop, Five or six Eringo-roots, three or
four Parsley-roots: one Fennel-root, the pith taken out, a few
Red-nettle-roots, and a little Harts-tongue. Boil these Roots and
Herbs half an hour; Then take out the Roots and Herbs, and put in the
Spices grosly beaten in a Canvass-bag, viz. Cloves, Mace, of each half
an Ounce, and as much Cinnamon, of Nutmeg an Ounce, with two Ounces of
Ginger, and a Gallon of Honey: boil all these together half an hour
longer, but do not skim it at all: let it boil in, and set it a
cooling after you have taken it off the fire. When it is cold, put six
spoonfuls of barm to it, and let it work twelve hours at least; then
Tun it, and put a little Limon-peel into it: and then you may bottle
it, if you please.

This one definitely sounds like Fun. Are there any opinions about why
one shouldn't skim this one? I don't see any source of yeast in here.
No clarifiers or eggdrometers either. If I can actually find all those
Roots and Herbs, I'll let you folks know how it turns out.

I have one other question (which I could probably do some research on
instead but I think there might be some interest in this here, maybe):

Has anybody out there heard of or seen, tasted or made beer with
quinine as an added flavoring? I really like drinking tonic water
straight, so this idea intrigues me. Maybe I'm weird, so what?

Here is the address to complain to:
             Jacob Galley, a full-time student with a part-time reality check
						     gal2 at midway.uchicago.edu

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Date: Mon, 11 Nov 91 18:40 CST
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: STUFF

 
 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 From: wbt at cbema.att.com
 
 >  "Brew It Yourself" is a far more interesting video and at half the price to
 >  netters.
 
 >I've never met either of you, but I've read both your work.  From his
 editorials in Zymurgy to his book to second-hand accounts of his antics,
 it's obvious that Papazian is one heck of an interesting person.  I suppose
 "interesting" applies to your writing as well, though I'd be more inclined
 to use "bizarre."
 
 You are entitled to your opinion but until you have seen both of our VIDEOS, 
 your opinion of THEM is not worth much.
 
 >I have just one question.  In your video, do you include a plug for the
 AHA?
 
 I listed in the credits, anyone and everyone who was of any help in producing 
 the video.  I received no help nor request for any such "plug" from AHA.  As 
 I am in no way affilliated with AHA, I am curious to know why you asked the 
 question.
 
 js
 

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Date: 12 Nov 91 07:27:00 EDT
From: "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <graham%drcv06.decnet at drcvax.af.mil>
Subject: Skunks caused by rough transportation?


I was talking to a friend who spent two years in Germany this weekend past 
and he said that skunkiness in beer was not only caused by light, but by 
the rigors of transportation.  He went on to say that the Germans import 
few beers because they are damaged in transport.

Though I do not know for sure, I can well imagine that rough handling, or 
even a lot of gentle handling, can cause a problem with beer.  Can one of 
our resident experts comment on this?

Dan Graham
"Beer made with the Derry air."



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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 91 11:35:47 -0500
From: steve at endgame.gsfc.nasa.gov
Subject: Re:  Welding Stainless - A Warning


Hi gang,

Just a bit of self-introduction: I'm Chris' house-mate-with-welding-gear,
and in an indirect manner, responsible for this thread. I also brew, but
admittedly I've been too lazy to read the digest (that will change RSN, just
sent in the request :-), so Chris has been bouncing relevant things at me 
as they come down the pipe.

> CADMIUM CONTAINING  [filler alloys]
> ARE NOT RECOMMENDED FOR ANY FOOD PREPARATION MATERIALS

If I could add to that... Cadmium, being the health hazard that it is, 
presents a danger to the welder (brazer?) as well. A snoot full of the 
vapors can, I believe, be lethal. Ventilation and appropriate safety gear 
would be a must. Every experienced welder I've talked to has told me to 
stay away from the stuff all together. So far, I've been following their 
advice. (Not too difficult to do, when you look at the price of sil-brazing 
fillers :-)

> ...

> PS. I have a 1978 copy of the Metals Handbook.  It's possible that the 
> filler rod designations may have changed, but the basic warning is still 
> valid.

I believe that the designations are still the same, at least according to 
the references I have avaliable (a late 80's Metals Handbook in the library
here, and my friendly neighborhood welding supply shop.

The warning about cadmium is definately a good one, and bringing it up is
hardly beating a dead horse. I'd hate to see what sort of horror stories 
the press could come up with about people getting cadmium poisioning as a 
result of drinking, or making, homebrewed beer and/or brewing equipment. 

Steve Rezsutek


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Date: 12 Nov 91 09:57:39 U
From: "Rad Equipment" <rad_equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: I'm Back

Subject:  I'm Back                              Time:9:46 AM     Date:11/12/91
Hi all!  My LAN is back up and working so I can again communicate directly with
the Digest.  It is possible that my "lost" posts of 10/31 will show up today
(11/12) as they were stuck in my mail server's buffer and mailed when it was
re-established with the UC LAN.  Sorry if they do show and are behind the times
or redundant (esp. since one continues the Schmidling debates.  Jeanne Sova: I
liked your collection of quips and yes, this is a tough crowd.  How about we
all sit back and have a beer and give it a rest...).

Glad to have access once again, the CI$ connection is OK but nothing beats
"free" access via work.

RW...

       Russ Wigglesworth              CI$:      72300,61
 |~~|  UCSF Medical Center            Internet: Rad Equipment at RadMac1.ucsf.edu
 |HB|\ Dept. of Radiology, Rm. C-324  Voice:    415-476-3668 / 474-8126 (H)
 |__|/ San Francisco, CA 94143-0628


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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 91 12:59:19 CDT
From: agerhardt at ttsi.lonestar.org (Alan Gerhardt)
Subject: Stainless Steel Fermenters


The comments in a previous HBD about stainless steel fermenters made
from kegs are interesting. In my area, you can get them for a forfeited
deposit ($12). I have used one for a boiler by cutting the top out, etc.,
but would be interested in how anyone has modified a typical AB keg into
a fermenter. 
   
Most AB kegs I have seen have the single tap fitting in the top, which
handles both CO2 in and beer out. The fitting can of course be cut out
to leave a hole big enough to get your arm in for cleaning, etc., but
a hole that big would be difficult to rig any kind of fermentation 
lock onto.

If you have a relative in the welding business, you could obviously 
weld something up, but most of us don't have that luxury.

Would anyone who has worked out these kinds of problems please post
their solutions?

 
Cheers,
Alan Gerhardt


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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 91 21:57:10 EST
From: boubez at tastesgreat.rutgers.edu
Subject: Devner/Vail Pubs


Hi there. I'm going to be in Dever then in Vail during the first week of
December. Naturally, I'm looking for recommendations on brewpubs, and good
pubs in general. I went throught the archive, and got a couple of tips.

>From thode at nprdc.navy.mil (Walt Thode):

Colorado -- Denver:
  The Wynkoop Brewery - The first brew-pub in the Denver area.

Colorado -- Vail:
  Alpenstube.

Are there any others? What beers do you recommend? Where else can I go for
a good variety of beers? Any info will be appreciated. Take care.

toufic

            R 2 4      Toufic Boubez
            |_|_|      boubez at tastesgreat.rutgers.edu
            | | |      Computational Engineering Systems Lab
            1 3 5      CAIP Center, Rutgers University


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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 91 22:35:06 PST
From: Dave Suurballe <suurb at dumbcat.sf.ca.us>
Subject: Sunstruck Flavor

The latest Journal of the American Society of Brewing Chemists
(Vol. 49 No. 4, Fall 1991) has an article entitled "Sunstruck
Flavor in Beer" written by four people from Kirin Brewery.

Predictably, it confirms previous experiments with bottle color:

    "The formation of 3-methyl-2-butene-1-thiol increased
     proportionally to the ability of the bottle to transmit
     light between 350 and 500 nm."


After this, they experimented with different beers in the same color
bottle and noticed something very interesting:

    "In dark lager beer, 3-methyl-2-butene-1-thiol was not
     detected.  The quantity of 3-methyl-2-butene-1-thiol
     formed in lager beer brewed without adjuncts was less
     than that formed in lager beer brewed with adjuncts.
     Thus, beer brands contribute more to the formation of
     3-methyl-2-butene-1-thiol than green bottles do."


This inspired them to identify the constituents of beer that cause
skunkiness in the presence of light, so they concocted various
solutions of various beer constituents and tested them.  Their
conclusion:

    "From these results, we propose that the main route
     of formation could be such that when beer is exposed
     to sunlight, isohumulones decompose to the
     3-methyl-2-butenyl radical, and sulfur-containing
     amino acids and protein decompose to the SH radical
     in riboflavin-photosensitized reactions.  Both
     radicals then combine to form 3-methyl-2-butene-1-thiol."

     "The riboflavin content in beer appears to be one of
     the important factors resulting in differences in
     beer brands in formation of 3-methyl-2-butene-1-thiol.
     And if riboflavin could be removed from beer, a beer
     free from sunstruck flavor might be obtained."


Less interesting is their discovery that you can make the sunstruck
flavor go away after it is developed by storing the beer for four
weeks at 50 degrees centigrade.  They didn't say how it tasted
after that treatment.

Suurballe

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Date: Wed, 13 Nov 91 08:03:16 PDT
From: Mark James Easter <easterm at ccmail.orst.edu>
Subject: Homebrew Digest Submission

          Greetings!  Some friends of mine and I started batches of
          Cherry Fever Stout and Propensity Pilsener Lager (ala
          Papazian) last night and we wondered over bottles of stout
          about a couple of issues.

          1.  What are the potential impacts of pitching yeast while
          the wort is still warm?  We pitched at ~85-90 degrees F.

          2.  While sparging the lager, some of the hops made it past
          the screen and into the carboy.  Will this have impacts
          beyond added "hoppiness"?

          3.  How much should a homebrewer shake/roll the carboy
          around to mix in the yeast after pitching?  I've heard
          arguments from two camps, one that says we shouldn't add any
          more oxygen than we have to and another that says the
          benefits of thoroughly distributing the yeast outweigh any
          problems from added oxygen.

          I'd appreciate any comments you all might have...ciao.

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Date:         Sat, 09 Nov 91 22:32:05 EST
From: Jean Hunter <MS3Y at CORNELLA.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:      Germs and Spores in Honey (HBD 758)

  What? Not boil honey?  Do you know where that stuff comes from?
Ordinary honey is nearly invulnerable to bacterial, yeast and mold infection
due to its low water activity (essentially the same as high osmotic pressure),
as has been pointed out already on the Digest.  OTOH, honey is made outdoors
by insects who come in contact with any and every bacterial cell, mold spore
etc. that is in the natural environment.  Raw honey is full of pollen, dust,
plant and insect fragments and the like.  Even refined honey which has been
pasteurized and filtered still may contain heat-resistant bacterial spores.
These spores are the reason why no honey in any form should ever be given to
infants under 6 mo. old - Clostridium botulinum spores in the honey have
established themselves in the digestive systems of infants, leading to "infant
botulism" and at least a dozen deaths since the phenomenon was identified.
The lesson here for brewers is that in the case of honey, shelf stability does
not imply cleanliness.  Oh, and if you're determined to use honey for priming,
give it a nice long boil, at least 10 minutes, in as concentrated a form as
you can.  A quickie one-minute simmer won't do the job, because the most
reliable way to reactivate dormant clostridial spores is a heat shock.  We use
it right here in the lab and it works great to establish a thriving population.
Now certainly Clostridia won't thrive in the acidic environment of finished
beer, but you might as well be on the safe side.
   At this point you might expect a strong recommendation for corn sugar, but
upon reflection, I don't know what nasties might be lurking in it, either.
Bottom line, a little obsession( with sanitation) can prevent depression
(grieving over a lost batch).
   To the homebrewer with poisoned beer, did you sanitize your bottlecaps?
Cheers, Jean.
Clever aphorisms and fancy signature bars are so much noise.

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Date: Sun, 10 Nov 91 15:15:11 CST
From: caitrin lynch <lyn6 at midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Yeast Haze

I recently brewed up a Bitter ale. A simple recipe: light malt extract,
goldings hops, and Wyeast (British Ale). After nearly three weeks in the
bottle it still is not clear. From: caitrin lynch <lyn6 at quads.uchicago.edu>
To: flynch at lmoadm.dec.com
Cc: lynch at busy.dec.com, lynch at polar.dec.com, scottie at leland.stanford.edu
Subject: Messages Received

It was so exciting to get mail in the box and on the computer today. The
E-mail is better, cuz it's not bills. We attempted an earlier message, but I
screwed it up. What does cc do? Will this send to everyone else? We got the
photographs of the wedding. There are some good ones. I especially like the
one with grandpa, aunt nora, katherine, nick and I. A keeper. Nick wants to
know how Joe and Jenny are? He says that because Christoper likes to ask Tim
"Is that a keeper Tim?" Oh wait, it's a fighter he asks about. I had the
pleasure of having my car towed for a mere $50 plus a $20 parking ticket
today. Do you think AAA will reimburse for the towing?! Nick's beer is
delicioso, but not quite like Goose Island Brewery, des. I met with the
director of the South Asian battered women's shelter where I am going to do my
MA research today. (Geez, Scott, all those words regarding my project are in
English--I couldn't understand a word of yours!) Anyway, starting next
Saturday I am going to do a 6 week training session for counseling victims of
domestic violence. Then I am going to write about something to do with it.
Bye.
	I woke up this morning around five or so and took the dog for a long
walk up the river and by the new zoo that they are building. I imagine that
the dog will go bezerk as we walk by and a gorilla begins hooting at him.
Anyway she is a good dog 

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Date: Sun, 10 Nov 91 15:18:52 CST
From: caitrin lynch <lyn6 at midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Yeast Haze Again

My last message got cut off in the middle so I will repeat it. I recently
brewed a Bitter ale from a simple malt extract recipe with goldings hops and
Wyeast British Ale. The problem: after three weeks in the bottle the beer is
still not clear. I have never had this problem before and am wondering what
might cause it. Oh yeah. There is also no head on the two test bottles I have
tried. Taste okay, but extremely yeasty. What gives?

Nick

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Date: Sunday, 10 November 1991 4:12pm ET
From: joshua.grosse at amail.amdahl.com
Subject: HBD


I'm considering a Bruheat or similar brand 220 volt mashing tun.  If you've
got one of these, perhaps you've run into this same dilemma:

 -->> I only have a single 220 volt outlet in my house, for the stove. <<--

I expect to unplug the stove when using the electric tun.  But, I ask you, how
can I prepare sparge water with an inoperative stove?  Find a 220 volt "Y"
connecter at my local hardware store?  Heat the sparge water before mash in,
and place it in a picnic cooler?  Boil it first, and it will cool to 168 F by
the time I'm ready to mash out?  Hire an electrician to add another 220 line?
(I'm *very* reluctant to add additional 220 service, as my basement ceiling
(celetex) would need to be removed - not fun or cheap.)

Your comments and suggestions would be graciously welcome.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Josh Grosse                                jdg00 at amail.amdahl.com
Amdahl Corp.                               313-358-4440
Southfield, Michigan

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Date: Sun, 10 Nov 91 19:41:29 -0600 (CST)
From: Brian Capouch <brianc at zeta.saintjoe.EDU>
Subject: Re: Homegrown Hops

Excerpts from homebrew: 8-Nov-91 Homebrew Digest #758 (Novem.. Verify a.
b. sending at hpf (47431)

> Is there an easy process to determine the alpha acid content of homegrown
> hops?  If there isn't an easy process, what's the difficult process?

It depends on what you call easy.  It's essentially impossible for the
homebrewer to get at the kind of sophisticated lab equipment that's
required for an AA test. 

Oregon State University will conduct a hops analysis for a fee; I think
it's about $40.  It requires ~1 oz. of hops.

Interested parties should contact the office of Al Haunold.

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Date: Sun, 10 Nov 91 19:52:57 -0600 (CST)
From: Brian Capouch <brianc at zeta.saintjoe.EDU>
Subject: Re: Coriander, leaf or seed?

There is no doubt in my mind that all brewing uses of Coriandrum Sativum
(the plant that yields both the leaves known in the southwest as
cilantro and the seeds known as coriander) would involve the *seeds* and
not the leaves.  

The difference in both flavor and aroma between the two is highly
remarkable: one would never know they came from the same plant.

My brewing partner and I were discussing this the other day when one of
us observed that indigenous cuisines in which coriander leaves are used
also seem to make heavy use of chile peppers: Mexican, Chinese, Indian,
and Thai are the first to come to mind.  Even though this is only
tangentially related to homebrewing, can any of you homebrewers (who,
we've found out, often turn out to be cooks as well) think of a cuisine
which uses one but not the other?  A half-dozen people I've asked so far
have been unable to come up with one. . . .

Brian Capouch
Saint Josephs' College for Children
brianc at saintjoe.edu

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Date:     Wed, 13 Nov 91 15:18:11 EST
From: "David C. Skeldon" (CCL-F) <dskeldon at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:  Sam Smiths Nut Brown

  I've seen submissions where people have asked for recipes to duplicate Sam 
Smiths Nut Brown Ale. Since I didn't keep the address of the person that 
asked, and everyone that answered must haved answered directly, could someone 
please send me their recipes for it.

                                  THANKS
                                       Dave

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Date: Wed, 13 Nov 91 17:03:24 CST
From: Mark Sandrock <sandrock at aries.scs.uiuc.edu>
Subject: oxidation, priming, and the Crabtree Effect

> I thought "someone else" would address the question, which I think was
> missed by Richard.  That is, liquid yeast, even when properly
> activated, does not supply sufficient quantities of active yeast for a
> vigorous start to fermentation of a 5 gallon batch.  Certainly,
> aeration _is_ important, but I think this is secondary to creating a
> "sufficient" quantity of active starter.

Novice that I am, both aerating the wort and using an adequate pitching
rate fall into the category of "critically important" procedures for me.
One may still do okay without them, but why take chances with your time and
money at stake?

> Gosh, a good old fashion unix bigot!  While all you guys toodle around on
> the Packards and Edsle's of OS's, Microsoft is cleaning up making fords!
> Can 10 million Windows users all be wrong? ;=)

Ahem. The Edsel *was* a Ford product.
And can 10 million Bud drinkers all be wrong?

>  From: larryba at microsoft.com
>  
>  >  I don't necessarily think that you will detect oxidation in your 
>  "mishandled" beer.  Why?
>  
>  >Because it is my belief that if you have
>  active yeast in your beer, oxidation may not be an issue.  Beer that
>  is primed and bottled has live yeast in it.  Live yeast is very
>  reductive (?) and chews up the oxygen + reduces the oxidized
>  components.  I have heard that damaged beer can be revived by adding
>  fresh wort, yeast and letting it re-ferment. I think that is what
>  happens for many home brews: they are harsh at first (green?) and
>  then as they age they mellow out.  I think it is the yeast doing it's
>  magic. Comment, Dave Rose, George Fix?

Note that Miller points out that yeast will NOT consume O2 in the presence
of a high ratio of glucose to other fermentables. This is the situation
brought about when using corn sugar to prime a batch, for example. This is
also an argument *against* those beginners recipes which call for the use
of large amounts of corn sugar in place of malt extract. This phenomenon is
know as the Crabtree Effect.  (No idea where that name originated!)
Bottom line: glucose (corn sugar) priming does NOT cure aerated beer.
Use DME (or equivalent) to prime if O2 is an issue in the fermented wort.

Cheers,
Mark Sandrock

- -- 
UIUC Chemical Sciences Computer Center
505 S. Matthews Ave., Urbana, IL 61801
Voice:  217-244-0561
Internet:  sandrock at aries.scs.uiuc.edu

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Date:    Wed, 13 Nov 91 18:51:48 EST
From: IO10676 at maine.maine.edu
Subject: Yeasts, and ordering advice

First, a question:  I have a couple of recipes I'd like to duplicate
that involved extract-based kits, usually with other grains, hops,
etc. added.  However, some of them used the yeasts that came with the
kits.  Since these dry yeasts are of questionable viability, I'd
prefer to use a yeast I can trust, but I want to remain as close to
the original recipe as possible.

So, my question is, is there any way to find out what yeast strains
these kits supply?  Other than culturing them all, which I don't have
the equipment for.  What I'm ideally looking for is a reference that
says something like, "Mountmellick Stout uses the same strain as Wyeast
#xxx, Ironmaster Brown Ale uses Wyeast #yyy," and so forth.  I know I
probably won't get something that nice, but hey.

Second:  I recently joined a local food cooperative that carries
brewing supplies at nice, low, just barely above wholesale prices.
Definitely a Good Thing.  However, the person who used to order this
stuff has left them, and I got roped into doing the job.  So, here's
my proposal to the HBD:

Given a budget of, say, $350, what should a brew supplier order from
their wholesaler?  Obviously malt, hops, yeast, and accessories, but
more specifically . . . Anyway, I'll be drawing up the order sometime
next week.  Please email me your suggestions; after I make the final
list, I'll probably post it to the digest.

Thanks!

Sterling Udell
Big Dog Brewing Cooperative - Eastern Division
"Beer is our business, and business is GOOD."


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Date:    Thu, 14 Nov 1991 8:39:52 -0500 (EST)
From: TSAMSEL at ISDRES.ER.USGS.GOV
Subject: Bubbles

This may have already been noted but the October PHYSICS TODAY has an
article on the physics of beer bubbles.
(Through a Beer Glass Darkly) pp48-52.
 Ted

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Date: Thu, 14 Nov 91 9:03:54 EST
From: gkushmer at Jade.Tufts.EDU
Subject: Homebrew Digest #760 (November 14, 1991)



Hey guys.  I recently got an old glass carboy off my grandfather.  He used
to put water in it and then add coloring.  Way back when, they would put these
things on the front steps.

Now, the carboy has a slight bluish tinge and has been empty/dry for a 
long time.  Anyone think I should even try cleaning it out (and what with)
or does this sound too risky?

Thanks.

- --gk

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Date:    Thu, 14 Nov 1991 9:17:25 -0500 (EST)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: beer is good for you!?

   What is the nutritional value of beer?  As a some-time vegetarian, I'm 
aware of the benefits of mixing grains, beans, and dairy products as protein
compliments.  Grains?  Beer!  Is there enough of the needed amino acids
in beer to act as a protein compliment?  Is beer *really* good for you?
(I'm not addressing the stress-relief effect, just nutrition).

   Warning: I washed the outside of a package of Whitbread yeast, opened 
it, and found one quarter of the package to be wet.  The package leaked.
Luckily there was still a lot of dry yeast in there. I rehydrated it and it 
smelled ok, so I pitched it, and all seems fine.  I've never had any problems
with Whitbread yeast in the past.

  I want to comment on the js bs, but I'm not going to.  Let's talk beer.

Russ G.
OPAL/ESP
UNH

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #761, 11/15/91
*************************************
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