---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Whose Kegs Anyway? (Jeff Frane)
  De-labeling Bottles (IO10676)
  Boiling (or in computerspeak, flaming) water (Joshua B. Halpern)
  Is it water or is it bud? (John Pierce)
  re: Bitchez Brew Stout (John Hartman)
  FREUD (Jack Schmidling)
  Cleaning SS Fermenters (Alan Gerhardt)
  HBD on rec.crafts.brewing (Desmond Mottram)
  GLUG! (Dick Dunn)
  This is stupid, but at least I'll be brief. (S94TAYLO)
  Oatmeal stout (Bob Hettmansperger)
  Etiquette and water ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  More about steel vs aluminum (Paul (8238))
  Soap/Detergent, Ginger (Norm Pyle)
  Chimay yeast. (Dave Rose)
  CENSURE (Jack Schmidling)
  Chicago Beer Society, Alternative Garden Supply ("Roger Deschner 312-996-9433")
  Noise (larryba)
  Window screen (korz)
  Ginger/Orange beer (Peter Glen Berger)
  Cleaning glass carboys (korz)
  Re: Cleaning (Jay Hersh)
  Window screen revisited (korz)
  No Flames Policy (proposal) ( Neil Mager)
  Pressure Barrels ("Jack D. Hill")
  The Beer Hunter (Bill Chiarchiaro)
  Samuel Adams Holiday Classics (Greg J. Pryzby)
  DMS and light lagers (larryba)
  rebottling? (Emily Breed 1-415/545-2637)
  Re: Wrigley Red (Davin Lim)
  prickly pear? (Dick Dunn)
  Homebrew Digest #766 (November 22, 1991) (Chris  at  SSDA ...)


Send submissions to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues!]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 91 18:39:07 EST
From: Jeff Frane <70670.2067 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Whose Kegs Anyway?

In all this talk about using stainless steel kegs for kettles and fermenters,
I've noticed one small detail missing: Most of these kegs belong to someone
else! To me, this has two elements, one moral and one political. The first is
that, since most kegs are the property of breweries, it's simple theft to cut
them up and use them for kettles. While it's true that this is less
expensive--for you--than buying a SS kettle from a kitchen supply store, it's
*not* less expensive for the brewery which has to replace it. Kegs are
expensive.

The second element is a little different. For the six years or so that I've been
involved in homebrewing, the local brewing industry, both micro- and macro- has
been extremely courteous and helpful to all of us. They've always been
astonishingly cooperative in providing information and guidance, and in some
cases raw materials. I think it's a Bad Idea to turn around and start swiping
their kegs. A lot of micros (particularly brewpubs) have a hard time finding and
paying for adequate cooperage, and if homebrewers are indiscriminately
appropriating these kegs without paying for them, they're going to be having an
even harder time. Think about that the next time you try to reserve a pony keg
of your favorite micro beer for a company picnic.

I think George Fix's information on converting pony kegs to fermenters is
excellent technical information. But, please, be sure you really own those kegs
before you take them out of the trade. 

To Jack Schmidling: I suspect none of us were offended by the "gutter talk"
since we recognized that "anal" was short for "anal retentive" which is a
corruption of a psychological term rather than naughty language. Jack, "anus" is
not a dirty word. Karl Desch's question about aluminum can hardly be classified
as offensive. Remember, there are no stupid questions . . . just stupid answers.


 


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Date:    Thu, 21 Nov 91 19:08:40 EST
From: IO10676 at maine.maine.edu
Subject: De-labeling Bottles

I realize that a lot of you HBDers never touch bottles, being quite
happy to stick with your kegs.  I'd like to myself, but a meager grad
student's budget doesn't allow it.  And for the rest of us who do use
bottles, I'm sure most of you have long since de-labeled all the
bottles you use.  I was in that same condition before a recent cross-
country move, but at that time I decided it was silly to transport
umpteen cases of bottles when I knew that I could get more after I
got settled in at my new location.

My point is that any of us may suddenly have the need to remove a LOT
of labels from bottles again, and the new brewers on the digest are
probably still in the process of doing this the first time.  So, a
suggestion and a question for the HBD:

I have found that one of the most effective things for scraping the
labels off heavily-glued commercial bottles is a metal-edged windshield
ice scraper.  The one I have has an apparently brass edge on it, and I
got it last winter at a convenience store for about a buck.  Works
pretty well on my windshield and really well on my bottles.  If you
live in aa southern clime, you may not be able to get one of these, but
I would heartily recommend one to any other dwellers near the Great
White North (eh).

And now my question:  I've heard that prolonged soaking in the proper
chemical will make even the most recalcitrant labels float right off.
Problem is, I can't remember _what_ chemical it is.  Bleach?  Ammonia?
Something like that?  Anyone know?


Sterling Udell
Big Dog Brewing Cooperative - Eastern Division

"If you can't brew with the Big Dogs,
 You'd best just stick to watching JSP videos."

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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 22:42:20 EST
From: Joshua B. Halpern <jbh at scsla.howard.edu>
Subject: Boiling (or in computerspeak, flaming) water


The rather long simmering argument between Jack Schmidling and Bob Jones on
boiling water should be quickly extinguished and both gents forced to take
courses in elementry thermodynamics.  To summerize the problem, Schmidling
has a pot which sits on top of a forced air melting furnace and he can
boil water (7 gals in about 15 minutes).  He states that you can't possibly
hurt a steel kettle on anything even that hot. 

Jones replies that you can't boil anything at 2500 F because the steel melts.

Schmidling counter flames (appropriate to this correspondence) that
	1.  He measured the temperature of the flame with a thermocouple
		pyrometer
 SS has a higher melting temperature because it contains chromium
            and chromium melts at a higher temperature
        3.  Aluminum melts at 1200 C, so you cannot compare the two and
        4.  Water boils at 212 F and turns into an expanding cooling gas
            so one can heat in kettles without worrying about the kettle
            melting.

Well anyhow, just about all of what was said by both parties is irrelevant, and
what isn't is only distantly related to the problem.

First of all, at constant pressure (atmospheric in this case), liquid water and
steam can only coexist at one temperature, the boiling point, 100 C or 212 F.  Thus, you can only have water below 100 C, or (superheated) steam above it.  
The steam is not an expanding cooling gas, but rather it is carrying energy,
in the form of heat, away from the kettle, while that little old melting furnace
is pumping it in the other end.  If you close the kettle (pressure cooker), then
the temperature will increase inside as will the pressure, until the whole 
thing goes boom.  Thats why pressure cookers have the little valves which
regulate the pressure and keep our kitchens and bodies in one piece.  However,
as we state in the beginning, at atmospheric pressure, water and steam can 
only coexist at the boiling point (OK you chemists and physicists, I know
about vapor pressure, but these guys need a simple explanation).  

So Jack Schmidling is right that he can have a pot full of boiling water on
a really hot flame and the boiling water will remain at 100 C, but his
picture of what is going on is wrong.  It is not the temperature of the
flame that matters, but how much energy it can pump into the kettle per
unit time that is determining.  There is a small caveat that should be
inserted here, before everyone starts using torched to heat their kettles,
remember the flame heats the pot, and the heat that is transfered to the
pot then flows into the water.  If the heat flows into the pot faster than
it can be transferred to the water, then the temperature of the bottom of
the pot will be much higher than the temperature of the water.  Given a
hot enough flame and a pot made of a poor, or non-conductor, and you can
melt the bottom of the pot.  Ordinarily this is not a problem, but with a
forced air or oxygen heater, and a stainless steel pot (SS is a relatively
poor conductor of heat), interesting things could happen.  

The difference between temperature and heat is important, and often badly
understood.  Temperature is a measure of the average amount of energy per
molecule or unit mass.  Heat is a form of energy.  Thus, a flame can be
very hot, but since the gas is not very dense you can do things like put
out a candle with your finger, or quickly pass your hand through a gas
flame without pain (There is something of a technique to both of these
tricks and I am not recommending them to anyone, and accept no 
responsibility for anyone doing so, but most adults have seen both of these
things done).  A safer, though less spectacular, way of seeing this is to
pass your hand infront of a hair dryer.  The dryer produces air at about 80 C
or 150 F, but if your hand passes quickly in front of the dryer, its temperature
remains at about 98 F or 35 C, because the hot air from the dryer can pass
only a bit of heat to your hand.  Leave your hand in front of the dryer
for a long time, and it will heat up, eventually reaching the temperature of
the air coming from the dryer.

What does this have to do with beer?  Not much, but on the one hand, I have 
been enjoying a fine glass of St. Louis Gueuze while writing this, on the
other the rate of heating seems to be a bit neglected in the brewing
discussions (this is really what the flash pasturization arguments are about)

Many thanks for the Homebrew Digests, although I am not a homebrewer, I enjoy
the discussions of beers, and the places to hunt them.

Josh Halpern
Washington, DC

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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 17:40:05 PST
From: pierce at chips.com (John Pierce)
Subject: Is it water or is it bud?


Bob Jones humorously asked if anyone could tell the difference between
carbonated water and Spuds...

Personally, I'd drink a {Mendocino | Calistoga | Perrier} anyday before
I'd drink a Spuds!  No hangover!!  ;-}

	John R Pierce			A world of secret hungers perverting
	pierce at chips.com		the men that make our laws! -f.zappa
- ---------=========================================================-------------
As always, in case I am caught or killed, my employer will disavow
		all knowledge of my activities.


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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 14:57:00 PST
From: hartman at varian.varian.com (John Hartman)
Subject: re: Bitchez Brew Stout


It  calls  for 6 lbs.  dark dry malt  and 2 lbs.  amber  dry malt  among
other things.  I'm an all-grain  brewer.  So my question to the informed
is how do I convert these  ingredients  to grain?  I.e., How does one go
about  converting  light,  amber, and dark malt  extracts to their grain
equivalents.

Ready to brew a stout,
John	( hartman at varian.com )

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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 20:13 CST
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: FREUD

 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 
 My apology to:
 
 Darren Evans-Young <DARREN at UA1VM.UA.EDU>
 
 Re:
 
 >While I am counter-flaming, I would like to point out that most reasonable 
 people would find the following sort of comments far more offensive than 
 anything I have ever said.
 
 >>Occasionally (once per 10 batches), I run boiling water through
  just to be anal. 
 
 >Just what does such gutter talk have to do with beer making?  And why is it 
 necessary and accepted without anyone else objecting?
 
 You can't expect the "WORLD'S GREATEST BREWER" to be an expert in Freudian 
 psychology.   I think I will stick to commercials, I got far less critical 
 mail.
 
 For anyone else who may live in the backwaters of Puritan English, here is a 
 sample of the mail.....
 
 >What gutter talk are you referring to, Jack?  Haven't you ever
 heard of classifying personalities?  The "anal-retentive"
 personality is one which is very methodical, almost to extremes,
 and cannot tolerate anything but over-doing it--excess
 cleanliness, excess neatness, etc.  This behavior is referred to
 as being anal, in general American English vocabulary.
 It could hardly be construed as impolite or offensive.....
 
 js
 

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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 91 12:45:01 CDT
From: agerhardt at ttsi.lonestar.org (Alan Gerhardt)
Subject: Cleaning SS Fermenters

I would like to thank George for his excellent posting about the
use of kegs for fermenters. 

I tried his method of removing the ring, etc. last night and his
instructions are right on target.  I will try a batch in the keg
soon.

Sanitation is the only remaining concern at the moment. Every 
batch I have ever brewed in a glass carboy has left "grunge" deposits
on the surface somewhere.  I usually use a carboy brush to scrub them
off, and examine the carboy closely to make sure I have gotten them 
all, and then I sanitize the carboy in the usual fashion.

Obviously, examination is virtually impossible in a 15.5 gal keg
used as a fermentor.  Is chemical cleaning with iodophor, b-brite,
or something else adequate for this type of fermenter ?

I would be interested in hearing about the sanitation regimen that
anyone is using successfully for this type of fermenter.

Cheers,
Alan


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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 91 10:02:55 GMT
From: des at swindon.swindon.ingr.com (Desmond Mottram)
Subject: HBD on rec.crafts.brewing

I've noticed that HBD articles now copy themselves to rec.crafts.brewing. 
Or is it the other way round? It seems that HBD carries everything that 
appears in the newsgroup but not always the reverse.

It also seems to me that the outbreak of poor manners in HBD coincided with 
its emergence in rec.crafts.brewing. Is it possible that BB subcribers are 
unaware of the rule of good taste in HBD?

Mail replies please, don't reply to HBD.

Rgds, Desmond Mottram
des at swindon.swindon.ingr.COM
uunet!ingr!nijmeg!swindon!d_mottram

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Date: 22 Nov 91 02:56:53 MST (Fri)
From: rcd at raven.eklektix.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: GLUG!

In HBD 766, Dave Ballard suggests how to get a faster flow out of the
carboy (when rinsing) by using a racking tube to vent air up, so that the
outflow is smooth.

You can get a good approximation to this by whirling the carboy as you turn
it over.  It starts a bathtub-emptying sort of eddy; the glug turns to a
smooth flow with air coming up the center.

BUT be careful when you give the carboy a swirl, that you don't end up
smacking it against something and breaking it!
 ---
Dick Dunn    rcd at raven.eklektix.com   -or-   raven!rcd    Boulder, Colorado

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Date:     Fri, 22 Nov 91 09:05 EST
From: <S94TAYLO%USUHSB.bitnet at VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:  This is stupid, but at least I'll be brief.

No one wanted to go see "New Jack City" until the media made such a big deal
about it.  Did Jay Hersch (sp?) have the same idea with his video.
Just Al. (this time)

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Date: 22 Nov 91 09:40:07
From: Bob Hettmansperger <Bob_Hettmansperger at klondike.bellcore.com>
Subject: Oatmeal stout

          Oatmeal stout

In HBD 766, Dave Beedle writes:

>     Good day all!   I brewed up my first oatmeal stout this past week end
>using 18oz of Quaker Old Fasioned (rolled) oats.  The stuff was pretty thick
>in the brew pot and pretty messy to deal with but I was really supprised when
>I trasfered to a secondary.  About the last three inchs of brew in the
>fermenter was too thick to siphon!  I ended up with about a gallon of trub/
>yeast/stout going down the drain.  

Just last night I popped the top on my first Oatmeal Stout (also using Quaker
Old Fasioned rolled oats) based loosely on the recipe posted here not too long
ago.  This had to be one of the nastiest brewing experiences, but the results
were very rewarding.  I had boil-over, "the incredible spewing carboy," *lots*
of trub, yeast, and other assorted sludge (more than in any other beer I've
brewed), and spilled bottles during bottling, but in the end I have a case and
a half of thick and rich stout which tastes fantastic.  

 -Bob



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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 91 09:56:29 EDT
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu>
Subject: Etiquette and water

I shudder to find myself contributing the non-beer part of this
digest.  But the recent level has gotten too high for me to keep
quiet.  I'll keep it short.

Please, when responding to something that is not related to the main
point of the digest (today's flood of responses to Jack's comment about
the term "anal" come to mind), send mail directly to the
"perpetrator".  There is absolutely no need to let the rest of us know
how smart you are.  We already know it. :=)  Only when what you have to
say is (1) directly related to the point of the digest, and (2) of
interest to the other >1000 members of the list, should you reply to
the list instead of to the original sender.

** End mini-flame **

Now, for some beer-related stuff:  I recently noticed that our city water
(Ann Arbor) was smelling strongly of chlorine.  I called the water
treatment plant and talked to one of their chemists.  He said that it
wasn't chlorine, but an oxidation product of the chloramine they use
for treating the water.  It is aggravated by nitrifying bacteria in the
distribution system, and occurs mainly when the water temperature is
above 14C (summer and fall).  In summer it's not so much of a problem
because people use more water.  As the reaction takes several days, it is
most noticeable at the edges of the pressure districts, where the water
is "oldest" (2-4 days).  Guess where I live?  

Guess I'll boil my water.  

I also asked for them to send me a water analysis.  It hasn't come
yet.  If you are concerned about the quality or mineral content of your
tap water, give the water department a call.  They are usually helpful
and willing to talk.

=Spencer W. Thomas 		HSITN, U of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109
spencer.thomas at med.umich.edu	313-747-2778


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Date:    Fri, 22 Nov 1991 10:29:22 -0500 (EST)
From: YATROU at INRS-TELECOM.UQUEBEC.CA (Paul (8238))
Subject: More about steel vs aluminum

There's been a lot of discussion in the last few digests on the merits
of SS over aluminum for boiling wort. Let me add my own experience to
this discuddion. Last week I was boiling some water for a mash (my first) in
three different pots - 2 SS and 1 aluminum. (I had to do this because the
pots are small: 16 Qt SS, 12Qt alum, and 6Qt SS and I needed 5 gal. - Hey,
I'm just starting!)
Anyway, to make a short story shorter, out of curiousity I tasted the water
out of the three pots and the aluminum sample definetly had a metalic taste.
Maybe this was all in my mind (does aluminum travel there that fast? ==%^).
After mashing in an insulated plastic food grade container, I boiled the wort
in the same 3 pots.

I also looked at Dave Miller's book (look up "boilers") and he recommends
*not* using aluminum for precisely this reason : it imparts a slight
metalic taste onto the wort.

So I went out to my favorite discount kitchen supplies store and bought a
16Qt enamel pot for my next batch. Given all that, I am not at all worried
about my first all-grain batch, "Metallica Pale ale".

(BTW, pop-psyche and gutter-talk, aren't they the same thing?)

PY

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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 91 09:49:50 MST
From: pyle at intellistor.com (Norm Pyle)
Subject: Soap/Detergent, Ginger

John DeCarlo writes:

>Sorry, Jay, but I couldn't let this go by without comment.
>*Soap* leaves a film.  *Detergent* does not.  People who clean
>items that come into contact with beer use detergents, since soap
>leaves a film and will cause off-flavors and destroy the head of
>the beer.  Bars use detergents (at least the ones I used to work
>at did) for this reason.

This has got me wondering.  I clean my bottles in the dishwasher,
using a bit of bleach or B-Brite.  I've been told repeatedly that
I should not use dishwasher detergent under any conditions and to
make sure I don't have one of those additives that keeps the glass
from spotting, either.  Recent HBD talk has indicated that basic
dishwasher detergent is fine for cleaning bottles.  Whats the
consensus?  Maybe someone has a video out there titled, "Bottle
Cleaning at Home". ;-0 ;-) ;-0

Andy Leith writes:

> I recently (4 weeks ago) made a batch of the Xmas ale that has
>been posted on here several times. At present the taste of the ginger
>is overpowering, will this mellow with time? There is also a soapy
>taste at present, I have never had this problem before, and am wondering
>if it will go away with time, and if this is common with spice beers. I
>added 1/2 teaspoon of vanilla extract to the secondary to help meld the
>flavours, but so far it doesn't seem to have worked.

I don't have a copy of the recipe you used but I've got a batch of Xmas
ale made with ginger.  It was brewed over a month ago and has been in the
bottle 2-3 weeks.  I used about 2 oz. of fresh ginger as a finishing
ingredient, and yes, the ginger is overpowering.  The good news is that
it is mellowing with time.  Also, ginger will provide a soapy taste.  I
don't have any experience with vanilla.  Give it time;  I bet it'll be
good.

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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1991 14:05 EST
From: Dave Rose <CHOLM at HUBIO2.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Chimay yeast.

	I have recently cultured some Chimay yeast myself.  I went about it
somewhat differently, streaking the culture out for singles, picking a
single into 10ml of liquid media (read "wort"), growing to stationary phase,
and then pitching this small culture into a two cup starter.  I got visible
starter activity in about 12 hours, and when I pitched the starter at around
24 hours I had *vigorous* fermentation within 8 hours (maybe sooner, I was
asleep).
	Two points. First, my experience suggests that the yeast is not 
inherently slow-growing.  However, it is possible that the viability of the
yeast in the bottle is low.  So, the big difference may be that I am pitching
many more viable cells by streaking for singles and making a stationary 
culture.  Incidentally, I find this method (single>>stationary>>starter) works
very well; I just set up the starter the night before brewing.  With most
strains, a stationary culture (one that has been allowed to grow until all
the sugar in the culture media is exhausted) is stable at 4C (fridge temp,
roughly) for as long as a month.  The zymurgy yeast issue, in contrast, 
suggests that the small culture must be pitched while it is actively growing, 
which is a little more difficult timing-wise.
	Second, there was a suggestion that Chimay yeast is a combination of
five strains.  I had never heard this, and have no inside information one 
way or the other.  However, the colonies I saw when I struck for singles were
very homogeneous, which suggests (but by no means proves) that they are all 
the same thing.  If Chimay *is* a mixture, then I have done exactly the
wrong thing by streaking for singles.  But it didn't look that way to me.
	My first trappist ale is fermenting away.  I couldn't really find
a recipe, so I ended up doing a high-gravity ale with lots of crystal malt 
and some brown sugar, loosely based on Miller's recipe.  Following Miller's
advice, I am trying to keep ester production high by fermenting at a rather
high temp (~70F), but I don't really have very tight control.  I can definitely
say that I am getting esters: each day a new fruit emanates from the 
fermentation lock.  Normally I would be concerned, but in trappist ales this
is apparently true to style.  If anyone is interested I would be glad to pass
along the recipe.  And any further information on the composition of chimay
would be appreciated.
						Dave Rose
					

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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 91 09:10 CST
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: CENSURE

 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 From: rcd at raven.eklektix.com (Dick Dunn)
 
 >Who was it that had (prematurely) thanked arf/JS for toning down?  JaH was
 right.
 
 > I will try to be gentle responding to this utter rubbish.  I don't want to be
 > accused of being confrontational.
 
 >Like, cool, man...call it "utter rubbish" and then say you'll try to be
 gentle.  How stupid do you think we are? 
 
 We"  Just you if you can not see the difference between correcting an 
 erroneous statment and responding to a flame.  His "rubbish" was a flame that 
 backfired.  He who lives in glass houses.....
 
 >The melting point of an alloy is related to the melting points of its con-
 stituents in complex ways.  If you don't believe this (and you've never
 encountered the rare substance called "solder") go look up the word
 "eutectic."
 
 Having owned a number of eutectic semiconductor bonders, you are barking at 
 the wrong dog.  It has nothing to do with the melting point SS.
 
 >If you think you can predict the melting point of an alloy based on a minor
 constituent, please tell me what you're smoking (and where I can buy some).
 
 I notice that you did not tell us what the melting point of SS is but just 
 blew a little smoke.  Does it melt down near aluminum as the flamer 
 suggested?
 
 
 >> 4.  Precisely because water boils at 212 F and turns into an expanding,
 > cooling gas, one can heat it in kettles without worrying about the kettles
 > melting.  This is true, even if the flame temp is far above the melting point
 > of the kettle.
 
 >This is true only within limits.
 
 This is true in ALL cases that a homebrewer would incounter.  Why are you 
 quibbling?
 
 >You shouldn't have to worry about melting
 the bottom of a kettle unless you've got a bodacious flame, but you *CAN*
 damage a kettle without much effort on a good home gas stove.
 
 Are you going to elaborate or just leave us hanging?  How can you damage a SS 
 kettle on a home gas range?  What do you mean by damage?  Discolor the 
 bottom.  It will NEVER melt and all your rhetoric will never change that 
 fact.
 
 [Aluminum vs SS]
 > It has a much stronger tendancy to leave your brain cells intact.  Oops,
 > forgot to turn off flame.
 >
 > Although there is a great deal of debate about the cause and effect of
 > aluminum found in the brains of Alzheimer victims, the implication is far too
 > freightening to even consider using an aluminum kettle for long term boiling.
 
 <Only if you're scientifically illiterate.  Start by repeating ten times,
 "Correlation does not imply causality." 
 
  And you start by re-reading my statement.  "A great deal of debate"....
 
 Choosing to play it safe does not constitute scientific illiteracy.
 
 >If you'd keep up with more recent work, you'd probably have read that
 although the correlation between Alzheimer's and aluminum in the brain is
 sound science, causality (from Al to Alzheimer's) doesn't hold up.  Stated
 simply, we don't know why the excess Al ends up in the brain, but it's not
 the causative factor for Alzheimer's.
 
 Not quite sure who "we" is but not being able to prove a cause does not prove 
 it is not the cause.  You sound just like the tobacco industry lady.  Do you 
 work for Alcoa?
 
 From: bryan at tekgen.bv.tek.com
 Subject: Call for Votes
 
 >Send mail to me, just a YES, for throw him off, or NO, for let him continue.
 
 >I'll stop counting votes on December 4, summarize to the digest and forward
 to Rob if the vote is yes. All mail messages will be available until January
 1, 1992 in someone else want's to count them. PLEASE send all related mail
 to me, NOT the digest.
  
 YES Sir, Sen McCarthy, we must generate this black list in private and YOU 
 publish the results and conclusion to Un-HBD Activities Committee.  We know 
 he's a pinko, we just need some signatures to make it look official.
 
 But first, I suggest we just all write to Rob and demand that YOU be censured 
 for this outrageous suggestion.
 
 js
 

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Date: 22 November 1991 13:16:21 CST
From: "Roger Deschner 312-996-9433" <U52983 at UICVM.uic.edu>
Subject: Chicago Beer Society, Alternative Garden Supply

ALTERNATIVE GARDEN SUPPLY, at Barrington & Lee Roads in Streamwood, is
the best homebrew shop in the Chicago Area, bar none. Yes, they have an
extensive supply of grains. They are knowledgeable and helpful. It's a
long drive from in town, but it is worth it.

Since you're there, you should also check with the UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO
HOMEBREW CLUB, which I think is planning to pool their grain orders and
buy in bulk. Internet contacts include Travis Mowbray
cs_travis at gsbacd.uchicago.edu.

As an Internet contact for the CHICAGO BEER SOCIETY, that would be me, at
the above address, or Steve Hamburg stevie at spss.com or Tony Babinec
tony at spss.com. Mailing address: Chicago Beer Society, Box 1057, La Grange
IL 60525. Telephone number: 708-692-BEER. However, the easiest way to get
in touch with the Chicago Beer Society is simply to show up at our
monthly meetings, the first Thursday of every month at 7:00 PM, at Goose
Island Brewery, 1800 N. Clybourn, Chicago. Goose Island lets us bring in
homebrew to sample and evaluate, because we also buy plenty of their
stuff when we're there.

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Date: Fri Nov 22 11:24:14 1991
From: larryba at microsoft.com
Subject: Noise

I second the notion that flames directed to Jack Schmidling have
contributed far more noise than Jack's postings. Also, I find Jack's
willingness to experiment and report results quite refreshing.



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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 91 13:57 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Window screen

Jack writes:
>A small piece of window screen is rolled several times around the pipe and 
>secured with a hose clamp or twisted copper wire.   The screen roll extends 
>several inches past the end of the pipe and the last inch is bent over itself 
>to prevent anything from entering the spiggot that has not passed through 
>several layers of screen.

All the modern window screens I've seen in my area, are made of some mystery
metal.  It doesn't rust, so it's not steel, it oxidizes too easily and the
oxide is too dark to be aluminum.  Maybe it's galvanized steel.  The oxide
comes off on your hands very easily.  Jack's idea is inventive, but I would
recommend against using window screen.  As an alternative, you could effectively
build a metal version of the slotted-pipe-in-a-cooler lauter tun by capping
the pipe (don't use lead solder) and cutting a bunch of slots in it.

On another topic: three cheers to the person (sorry) who pointed out that
industrial coffeemakers could be stainless steel and have built-in heat.

Al.

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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1991 14:53:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Peter Glen Berger <pb1p+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Ginger/Orange beer


Bryan Olson pointed out that I left an important bit of information
out of the Jaspers Gingered Ale recipe:  

Half (3 oz.) of the ginger and half of the orange peels should be put
in the brewpot at the same time as the bittering hops and boiled for
an hour.  The remaining half of each should be put in in the last 10
minutes. 


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pete Berger		       ||  ARPA:     peterb at cs.cmu.edu
Professional Student	       ||            Pete.Berger at andrew.cmu.edu
Univ. Pittsburgh School of Law ||  BITNET:   R746PB1P at CMCCVB
Attend this school, not CMU    ||  UUCP: ...!harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!pb1p
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Goldilocks is about property rights.  Little Red Riding Hood is a tale
 of seduction, rape, murder, and cannibalism."  -Bernard J. Hibbits
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 91 14:07 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Cleaning glass carboys

Geoff writes:
>If 1/4 kegs are used - how is the keg cleaned? Glass carboys are enough
>of a pain, but at least you can see what junk still stuck inside.

I don't use SS kegs (yet), but I have no problems cleaning my carboys.
All the gunk is either on the bottom or near the mouth.  Immediately
after racking, pour in some hot tap water and swirl to loosen the gunk
at the bottom.  Dump and repeat once or twice and the bottom is clean.
Pour a shlug of chlorine bleach in the carboy and fill with hot tap
water -- all the way to the top.  Let sit for a week.  Pour out a few
cups and insert carboy brush.  I've bent my wire brush handle so it's
easy to clean the inside top of the carboy.  Careful while pulling out
the brush or you will bleach little white dots all over what you are
wearing.  Dump and rinse with hot tap water.  Crystal clean!  Of course
I sanitize again before using.
Al.

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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 91 15:22:53 EST
From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Cleaning


>>AAAck. I never use soap on my beer glasses. I use B-brite. There
>>are other cleaning agents that many/most bars use.  Soap is much
>>more difficult to rinse clean without leaving a film.
>
>Sorry, Jay, but I couldn't let this go by without comment.
>*Soap* leaves a film.  *Detergent* does not.

Hey I said I *never* use Soap. I can see you beating up on me for mistaking 
Russ' posting to mean he used soap, when he did say he used detergent (sorry
I'll NEVER make that mistake again :-), but I did say I don't use soap, nor did
I recommend it.... Notice I used the words cleaning agent...

Sorry for the confusion, sheesh, you'd think I was plugging a video or
something :-) :-)....

 - JaH

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hopfen und Malz, Gott erhalts


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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 91 14:29 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Window screen revisited

I just had another thought about the screen-around-the-pipe lauter
tun.  If the only exit for a large diameter container was centrally
located, a lot of sugars could be left behind in the grain.  The
sparge water can sit stagnant at the sides of the tun where there is
little "current."  I suspect that multiple pipe system (as in the
slotted-pipe-in-the-cooler lauter tun) would be more efficient.
Comments?

Al.

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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 91 15:31:09 EST
From: neilm at juliet.ll.mit.edu ( Neil Mager)
Subject: No Flames Policy (proposal)



    I'd like to make the following No Flames proposal: 


                HBD No Flames Policy (NFP)
    If you feel the urge to enter into a 'heated' discussion with
    someone, take it to email and out of the digest. If a flame
    does appear in the digest, email should be used to make the 
    flamer aware of the No Flames Policy. A simple reference to
    the NFP should suffice without causing a flame war. If someone
    says something you *KNOW* is in error, POLITELY correct them,
    (and of course, state your source). 

    All new subscribers should receive a copy so they know the
    etiquette of the digest.

    Thats it. It can be changed, modified, or whatever.
    But let's be the first on our block to adopt such a policy, 
    if not formally, at least in spirit.

    Now back to the regularly scheduled brewing discussion.


        Neil Mager

====================================================
Internet                    <neilm at juliet.ll.mit.edu>
Voice                       (617) 981-4803
MIT Lincoln Labs            Lexington, MA
  Weather Radar - Group 43




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Date:     Fri, 22 Nov 91 16:02:31 EST
From: "Jack D. Hill" <jdhill at BBN.COM>
Subject:  Pressure Barrels


	A friend of mine just started using his new kegging system and lent me
his Edme Pressure Barrel. He told me how his first couple of batches with this
thing became oxidized after a couple of weeks. He went back to where he bought
it and they said he needed a new O-ring (those O-rings get ya every time). They
also suggested that he grease all of the fittings with vaseline. This fixed his
oxidation problems but the barrel does not produce beer with a lot of 
carbonation or thick creamy heads. I understand these barrels are very popular
among homebrewers in England where heavy carbonation in their bitters is not
desirable, so this makes sense. I prefer this so I plan to use it strictly for
English style ales. 
	Last week I was watching my tape of the Beer Hunter where Michael
Jackson talks about beer in England. He describes how beer is barreled while
still young, or in his words "still fighting back". They would then insert
porous splines into the cork to bleed of CO2 to get the perfect level of
carbonation. This technique seemed to be a good idea for this pressure barrel,
so last night I racked my porter from the secondary into the barrel (this was
done perhaps as much as a week earlier than if I were to bottle). If you've
never seen these things before, they have an interesting system of spring
loaded pressure release valves and a CO2 injecter.
	I would be interested to hear if anyone else has been using these
barrels and their experiences and tips. My next batch with the barrel will be
my first batch using a partial mash. I'll try for a nice bitter. (Sounds like
my mother-in-law saying, "Here, have some nice chicken soup."

Jack

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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 91 16:05:00 -0500
From: wjc at ll.mit.edu (Bill Chiarchiaro)
Subject: The Beer Hunter

There was a posting a while ago stating that Michael Jackson's "The
Beer Hunter" television series would be replayed on The Discovery
Channel.  The posting said it would start on November 23, but the new
issue of TV Guide did not have it listed.

I called The Discovery Channel today and was told that the series
would air on 5 nights (Monday through Friday) starting December 23.
The episodes are each 1/2-hour long and will start at 7:30 PM Eastern Time.


Bill Chiarchiaro
wjc at ll.mit.edu

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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 91 16:13:02 EST
From: virtech!gjp at uunet.UU.NET (Greg J. Pryzby)
Subject: Samuel Adams Holiday Classics

For the Samuel Adams fans out there- there Holidays Classic 12 pak is now
available. You get 3 Boston Ale, 3 Boston Lager, 3 Winter Lager, 2 Lightship
and 1 Canberry Lambic.

It is available at the Price Club for $10.99.

I also picked up a 12 pak of Dominion Lager to try. I guess this next week is
going to be busy ;^)

For those close to Northern Virginia, the Dominoin Lager Brewery is giving 
tours every Saturday at noon and 3pm.

I am not associated with the brewery or Price Club....

- -- 
Greg Pryzby  uunet!virtech!gjp
Virtual Technologies, Inc.
Herbivores ate well cause their food didn't never run. -- Jonathan Fishman

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Date: Fri Nov 22 13:35:17 1991
From: larryba at microsoft.com
Subject: DMS and light lagers

Ok, you guru's in Net Land, I need help.  I have made several lagers.  Both
of my light lagers (6lb klages, 2lb munich) have had pretty strong DMS
smells when first poured.  It is not overwhelming, but it is strong enough
to be a aroma defect.  I need hints on how to get this down.  I don't think
it is infection because I have done several light Ale's w/o any problems
(klages and wheat).  It seems to be limited to Lagers only.

 - I do a two step mash + mash out

 - I do an open boil for 90 minutes.

 - I pitch my aroma hops (if used) after the heat is off.

 - The kettle sits, covered, for 10 minutes while I wait for
  hot break & hops to settle out (set up chiller)

 - Chill down takes about 10 minutes (counter flow).  Typically the wort
  starts at around 205f and exits at 65-75f depending upon the supply water.

 - I have used a variety of yeasts: Whitbread lager, Wyeast Bavarian and
  some other lager yeast from a local microbrewery.

 - If I do an extended secondary (well, actually I just let the primary
  carboy sit in the fridge for a month after fermentation stops) the smell
  seems to dissipate somewhat. If I keg relatively soon after fermentation
  (1- 3 weeks) the smell seems stronger.  I don't have enough batches under
  my belt to be sure of this.

 - I have made three amber/darker lagers and they don't seem to have this
  problem, but I think it is just masked by the colored malts/hops.

Suggestions I have had so far:

1. Keep the kettle lid off during the steep and chiller prep time to allow
   more dissipation of the precursures.

Ideas I plan on trying:

1. Skip the steep time and chill as soon as the heat is off.  Do a second
   racking after cooling to ferment temps to get the wort off of the trub.

2. Use an extended secondary (lager in vented tank).

3. Change my malts (any ideas?)

4. Stick to darker bigger beers (ha ha ha)

Any other suggestions, hints about the process?

Thanks, in advance!

Larry Barello


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Date:          Fri, 22 Nov 91 16:04:56 PST
From: Emily Breed 1-415/545-2637 <EMBREED at SFOVMIC1.VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject:       rebottling?

A lack of foresight is taking its toll.  We brewed up a batch of spiced
ale for Christmas and bottled it in Martinelli's Sparkling Cider bottles
(dark green, probably about 23 ounces).  Now we've gotten the idea of
entering it in the Bay Area Brewoff mentioned in today's HBD.  So, my
question - is there any chance that opening a few bottles, transferring
it (as carefully as possible) to brown 12-oz bottles, maybe adding a
little bit of corn sugar, and recapping would work?  Would it be able to
regain the carbonation it would lose in this process?

Jeers or reassurances will be welcomed!

Emily Breed
   "zymurgy" may not be the last word in the dictionary, but it *should* be.

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Date: Mon, 18 Nov 91 10:27:35 MST
From: raid5!limd at sunpeaks.Central.Sun.COM (Davin Lim)
Subject: Re: Wrigley Red

Guy D. McConnell writes:...
>While I was in Boulder several months ago, I had Wrigley Red (several
>actually) at Old Chicago.  They had it on tap and I found it quite good.  They
>were advertising it as their house beer, "brewed especially for Old Chicago".
>Does anyone know where this beer is brewed and by whom?  I got the impression
>that it was brewed in the Chicago area but I'm not sure.

Wrigley Red is brewed at the Boulder Brewery right here in town.  The Boulder
Brewery has recently undergone a "re-vitalization" phase over the past
year and doing contract brews for the local establishments is part of that
effort.  They even produce beers for the Walnut Brewery brewpub (most of 
Walnut's Buffalo Gold beer sold at stores and other bars are made under
contract at the higher capacity Boulder Brewery.)  Other contract
brews you can find around town are Blue Note Ale and something sold at
the Walrus called Rockies.  The Boulder Brewery went through a phase
where their beer got the reputation of being bland and non-descript - at
least in comparison to most micro-breweries.  They've since made improvements
in brewing recipies (including the use of a new yeast strain) and, in
my opinion, the beers are a bit better - though still not anything to
get too excited about.  They have also "re-christened" their tasting-room and
made it into a real brewpub - though it's still relatively unknown as such.
I hear they now have real crowds.



- -- 
 ........................................................................
 * Davin Lim 			 * raid5!limd at devnull.mpd.tandem.com	
 * Array Technology Corporation	 * ...{infmx,mips,pyramid}!halley!raid5!limd
 * Boulder, Colorado.
 ........................................................................

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Date: 23 Nov 91 01:10:28 MST (Sat)
From: rcd at raven.eklektix.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: prickly pear?

Anyone else out there worked/working with prickly pear fruit for mead (or
any other fermented beverage, for that matter)?  If so, I'd like to swap
notes and info.

There was a story in Zymurgy some time ago about PP mead, and it drove me
to make one, in a year when I knew of a store which had oodles of good PP
fruit.  The result was exquisite.  Even the color was amazing; it earned
the batch name "Sunset Seduction".  Folks compared it to things like good
Sauternes (and I was duly flattered).  I made it as a sweet still mead.

I've found it difficult to find reasonable quantities of good PP fruit.
The problems have been:
	- stale, wrinkled fruit
	- incredibly high price, > $1/fruit.
	- only a few available in a store at a time
Now, they may be a nuisance to deal with, but they aren't *that* bad...I've
seen them growing wild in abundance.  [Why didn't I pick the ones I saw?
I didn't have a way to carry them to deal with the thorns; I didn't have a
way to scorch off the thorns; they were in an area where I'm pretty sure
"harvesting" would not be allowed.]  I don't understand the paucity and the
price.

Anybody know where to get them reliably?  I'm not looking for specifics
like "4th and Drucker in a large sandstone building", since it might be
somewhere I can't get to anyway.  I'm more looking for ideas on where to
find good PP fruit--does it show up in particular gourmet, ethnic, whatever
stores?  The taste of PP fruit is delicate; it takes a lot of them to give
an adequate amount of flavor.

Has anyone else tried a PP mead?  If so, did you make it dry/sweet, still/
sparkling?  Successful?
 ---
Dick Dunn    rcd at raven.eklektix.com   -or-   raven!rcd    Boulder, Colorado

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Date: Sat, 23 Nov 91 22:48:09 +1100
From: chris at coombs.anu.edu.au (Chris  at  SSDA ...)
Subject: Homebrew Digest #766 (November 22, 1991)


no

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Date: Sat, 23 Nov 91 10:40:47 -0500
From: "David C. Douglass" <dcd4f at landau5.phys.Virginia.EDU>

Hello, fellow homebrewers,

I don't normally have the time to interact with news groups, but
this digest has been quite helpful to my brewing knowledge, so I thought
I would return the favor.  I have no connection to the Homebrewer's Store.

On the subject of liquid yeast suppliers:  I have been using with great
success the yeast cultures from the Homebrewer's Store in Washington 
state, 1-800-TAP-BREW (great prices).  The owner Pat Rhodes tells me they 
have their own yeast lab, so I am sure there is no connection to Wyeast.  

He also tells me that a lab at UC Davis (??) measured the rate of infection
of commercially available yeasts, checking for lactobacillus.  They found a
60 percent infection rate for dry yeasts, and only a 10 percent infection
rate for liquid yeasts (this is third hand, so take it with a grain of salt).
That seems like a pretty good reason to use  liquid yeast.

Anyway, I've enjoyed reading this digest over the past few months, it's a
pleasure to follow a group that (usually) responds helpfully and maturely
to questions and provocative thoughts.

David

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #767, 11/25/91
*************************************
-------

---