---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Irish brewing? (Robert Bradley)
  importing yeast (chuck)
  Carbonation using Wyeast Irish Stout ("Randy Pals")
  SS kegs / Chilling wort (Tom Dimock)
  Christmas Greens (wbt)
  SS Fermentors, Melting, Aluminum, and Chiller vs Chiller (Michael Zentner)
  Kegs and theft (gkushmer)
  Stuck Fermentation (CCL-F) <dskeldon at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
  Jack Schmidling's video (STROUD)
  Delabeling and de-dms-ing (Stephen Russell)
  Sam Adams List (doug)
  De-labeling Bottles and pipe caps  (Carl West)
  Re: GLUG! (Richard Stueven)
  Hops (John E. Greene)
  Removing bottle labels (Michael L. Hall)
  oatmeal stout (mcnally)
  New Celis Brewery in Austin, TX (STROUD)
  Window Screen, No-Flame Policy ("Roger Deschner")
  DMS (mcnally)
  Yeast lysing(sp?) (Jarrod J Loewen)
  RE: De-labeling Bottles     & Clearing agents (Paul Yatrou)
  Soaking labels off bottles (bryan)
  Some Tips (Jeff Frane)
  Kegs (George Fix)
  Carbonation using Wyeast Irish Stout ("Randy Pals")
  Question: Cleaning SS ("John Cotterill")
  steal this keg. (larryba)
  Homebrew Store (Jeff Frane)
  REBOTTLING (RE. Emily Breed question from HBD 767 (ALTENBACH)
  delabelling bottles (Lynn Zentner)
  Re: Window screen (Chris Shenton)
  little to do with brewing (korz)
  Re: Homebrew Digest #765 (November 21, 1991 ("Jeffrey R.")
  Re: Removing labels (Judy Bergwerk)


Send submissions to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
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[Please do not send me requests for back issues!]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 91 15:15:39 -0500
From: bradley at adx.adelphi.edu (Robert Bradley)
Subject: Irish brewing?

Howdy Fellow Brewers!

I've been off the list since the 4th of July due to a change of job to a
college that only got internet last week.  I was amazed at how cut off I
felt without it!  But it's great to be back and see all the familiar
names and pick up new tips (200 batches and I've only scratched the 
surface...what a great vocation!).  First thing I noticed was how much
longer the HDBs seem to be now.  I was a little disappointed to realize
that the difference is largely to be explained in terms of flames and
counter-flames.  Others have already spoken my mind on that issue.....

What I want to know about is the history of Irish brewing.  As a fifth-
generation descendant who's been learning about his roots lately, I
want to know as much as I can about traditional brewing in Ireland.  For
example, Guinness: less than 2 centuries old, right?  Did it evolve
logically, or was it an imported idea (from London, presumably, in the
porter tradition).  Harp, and especially Guinness Gold, are clearly
latecomers to the scene.  What about Smithwick's, the bitter which
always accompanies Guinness and Harp in an Irish pub?  A latecomer as
well?  One can't help but notice that it's sweeter than most English
bitter, and therefore has much in common with Scottish ale.  All this
to-ing and fro-ing between Ireland and Scotland over the centuries.....
'Course, I can speculate as well as anybody else, but I wonder if anybody
actually knows?

Gald to be back,

Rob Bradley
(bradley at adx.adelphi.edu)

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Date: Mon Nov 25 03:18:03 1991
From: synchro!chuck at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: importing yeast

Does anybody know what the rules are concerning bringing yeast into the US?
I may have an opportunity to get some yeast samples in London.  I have brought
samples in before (please don't tell), but I'm not sure about the legality.

- -----
Chuck Cox
SynchroSystems
chuck%synchro at uunet.uu.net


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Date: Sun, 24 Nov 91 21:38:09 CST
From: "Randy Pals" <pals at inland.com>
Subject: Carbonation using Wyeast Irish Stout

In HBD #763, Ken Weiss asks about the experience others have had
with carbonation using Wyeast Irish Stout (I believe its #1084).

I just made a porter using said yeast, popped the first bottle
in the fridge upon reading Ken's note, and have found the
carbonation to be just fine.  My yeast was dated October 2.
As a side note, the fermentation went significantly faster than
normal (3-4 days complete).  Aged 3 weeks at 68 F to this point.

Randy Pals
pals at inland.com


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Date:         Mon, 25 Nov 91 08:07:27 EST
From: Tom Dimock <RGG at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:      SS kegs / Chilling wort

Alan Gerhardt mentions the difficulty of examining the interior of
a SS keg.  Difficult, but not impossible - a small bulb on a wire
(christmas tree bulb will work) and an examination mirror and you really
can look at the inside of a keg.  Your local hardware probably has
inspection mirrors ( a mirror on a stick - sort of like what the
dentist uses) but make sure you've measured your keg hole before you
go shopping for one.

I brewed my first batch in my new boiler this weekend.  It's an
electrically heated converted 15.5 gallon keg.  The chiller is a
counter-flow chiller made with 24 feet of 1/2" copper.  It can
take 5 gallons of boiling wort down to pitching temperature (85 F)
in four minutes!  If people would be interested, I'd be glad to
do a series of posts describing the construction of the boiler/chiller
combination in some detail.

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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 91 8:43:04 EST
From: wbt at cbema.att.com
Subject: Christmas Greens

> From: Emily Breed 1-415/545-2637 <EMBREED at SFOVMIC1.VNET.IBM.COM>
> 
> A lack of foresight is taking its toll.  We brewed up a batch of spiced
> ale for Christmas and bottled it in Martinelli's Sparkling Cider bottles
> (dark green, probably about 23 ounces).  Now we've gotten the idea of
> entering it in the Bay Area Brewoff mentioned in today's HBD.
> [can it be rebottled?]

How about another approach?  Wrap the bottle in aluminum foil, then get
some green cellophane and wrap over that.  Tie it up around the neck of the
bottle with a nice red ribbon and bow, and instead of a label, tie a gift
tag around the neck with the label information writton on by hand.  In
other words, make it look like a Christmas present, and in the process, 
light-proof.

Maybe you could just use wrapping paper, but I'd have more confidence in
the foil and it'll look snazzier, I think.  There's also gold-colored foil
available; try craft stores.

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker       AT&T Network Systems - Columbus            cbema!wbt
Quality Engineer      Network Wireless Systems       wbt at cbnews.att.com


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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 91 08:56:12 -0500
From: zentner at ecn.purdue.edu (Michael Zentner)
Subject: SS Fermentors, Melting, Aluminum, and Chiller vs Chiller


Someone (I can't remember who) asked a few days ago about using your SS
boiling kettle as a fermentor, but wondered how to use the lid.  Last time
we made a Strawberry Mega-Mead, we didn't think we could get the pureed
mess into a carboy, so we just let it cool down in the kettle.  I took
a garbage bag and cut it open, swiped down one side with alcohol and then
put it over the top of the kettle and secured it with a loop of string,
using a 3.5" floppy as a tourniquet to tighten it.  Results?  As one would
expect, no metallic flavour.  It left a real disgusting ring of blue
crap, which looked like it would be a bear to get clean, but it virtually
wiped clean.  So, the verdict, go ahead and use your SS pot as a primary, 
provided the level of liquid is not so high as to touch the area where
the handles are joined.  Many of the cheaper pots have a riveted on handle
which is made of a cheaper metal and which will corrode.  I should mention
that there is no way using a plastic bag in this manner to "aim" any blowoff,
so I wouldn't use a 6 gallon SS pot to do a primary for a 5 gallon batch
unless you're fermenting in a room with a floor drain!

Greg Pryzby writes:
> For the Samuel Adams fans out there- there Holidays Classic 12 pak is now
> available. You get 3 Boston Ale, 3 Boston Lager, 3 Winter Lager, 2 Lightship
> and 1 Canberry Lambic.

> It is available at the Price Club for $10.99.

 ........
>Greg Pryzby  uunet!virtech!gjp
>Virtual Technologies, Inc.

Rats...it ain't available around here, but I sure wish it was.  When are you
virtual guys going to give up on vision and consider the important senses, 
like smell, feel, and taste? :-)


Jack Schmidling writes:
> It will NEVER melt and all your rhetoric will never change that fact.

I'd like to take you up on this bet, Jack.  Calculations and phase diagrams
be damned...if I had 30 spare bucks and a video cam (and I don't), I'd be
willing to prove to you that you can melt a SS pot while trying to boil
water.  Now, if you were saying that you couldn't melt it on a home stove,
I agree with you, but there are stoves (I like to call blast furnaces on legs)
on which you could burn a hole in such a pot.  As a fellow brewer here will
also attest, you can burn a hole in one of these pots on your electric stove
when the coil burns out (ie melts and explodes).

Re: ALUMINUM

Here, I thinnk Jack is right...not only do you not even have to think about
getting the taste of Aluminum in your beer if you don't use it (although I
have tasted beers boiled in Aluminum and have yet to detect it), but if it
makes you feel safer to play it safe before the scientific facts are in, you
will be a healthier person because of peace of mind anyway.  However, I would
pose the following question:  

   What does anyone know about the absorption of aluminum into the body
   from the use of antiperspirants?  As most of you know, antiperspirants
   are based on some reactive aluminum compound (AlCl3 is one) which 
   readily reacts with water.  So, how many of you play it safe here as
   well?  It would be interesting to attempt a study of Alzheimers in the
   US vs another country where the use of antiperspirant is not as common,
   although it would be impossible to isolate this as the only difference
   between the two populations.


Re: COUNTERFLOW vs TUBE-THROUGH-BUCKET-OF-ICE-WATER

I prefer to use my counterflow (partly because I was so "anal" during the
construction of it that I feel I MUST use it).  Most important to me, though,
is that once flow is established, the wort coming out of it is always at the
same temperature, so I know exactly how cool it will be.  In the bucket of
ice- wort through tubing method, the initial wort is REAL cold, and after the
ice melts and you are using a bucket of chilled water, the wort is warmer.
It's difficult to predict what the final bulk temperature of the wort will
be.  This is important for me, because I want it to be at pitching temperature
so I can pitch and go to bed.  I usually will not have time in the morning
if I let it warm back up overnight (or cool down further) and try to pitch
the next day.  If the cold break bothers you, let it settle a little while
and rack into another primary.  Cold break settles pretty fast.

Mike Zentner

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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 91 9:10:04 EST
From: gkushmer at Jade.Tufts.EDU
Subject: Kegs and theft


Before I say anything else - I don't have any kegs at all, so don't go
flaming me as a thief.

I just wanted to say: From what I remember, whenever I've gotten a keg of
beer from a microbrewery or liquor store I've always had to put a deposit
on the keg.

I don't know how much kegs cost the owner, but I'll bet mass distributors and
even people at the micros are not charged what I am for the deposit. If you
keep the keg and loose your deposit then aren't you only ripping yourself off?

- --gk


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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 91 09:31:10 -0500
From: BUCK M Scott <msbuck at tacom-emh1.army.mil>


I would like to be added to your Homebrew mailing list.
Thank you.

M. Scott buck
msbuck%tacom-emh1.army.mil

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Date:     Mon, 25 Nov 91 9:47:38 EST
From: "David C. Skeldon" (CCL-F) <dskeldon at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:  Stuck Fermentation

What to do now? 
  I brewed a batch of beer using the following procedure and then dumped it on
the trub from the previous batch. The yeast from the previous batch was WYeast
#2007 Lager Yeast. The O.G. was 1.032  at  72 degrees on 18 November. There were
signs of fermentation within 40 minutes, within 12 hours the fermentation was
active enough that gunk was being pushed out of my 1 inch blow-off hose. After
32 hours fermentation slowed enough that the airlock was installed and within 48
hours of pitching fermentation had stopped.
  All fermentation took place in my basement at 62 degrees. My specific gravity
has measured 1.022  at  62 degrees for three straight days. After the first 1.022
measurement I tried to stir the trub up without introducing too much oxygen and
as you can tell from the readings it did not help. 
  The wort tastes very bad, all I could think of when I tasted it was before I
was 18, and someone would give me some beer that had sat out in the sun, got
frozen, and the dog pissed in it. 
  This is only my forth batch so my big question is "What do I do now?"

Procedures:

4lbs light DME
3/4 cup of 60L Crystal Malt
1 1/2 oz cascade bittering Hops (pellets)
1/2 oz cascade finishing Hops (pellets)

Add DME and the cracked crystal malt to 2 gallons of water. (the crystal malt
was in a grain bag)
Upon boiling remove the grain bag and add the bittering hops
After boiling for 45 minutes add the finishing hops.
After boiling for 2 minutes remove from heat and cool.
After cooling I added it to the cool water in my carboy and shook the carboy.
Temp of the wort was 72 degrees.

Please respond directly if possible since I get the digest second hand and it
may take me a couple extra days to recive the respnoses.
  

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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1991 10:07 EST
From: STROUD%GAIA at leia.polaroid.com
Subject: Jack Schmidling's video

I don't mind Jack's constant questioning about "accepted" homebrewing 
practices.  A healthy discussion can do us all good.

About this video, though:

Why would someone who has never tasted anyone else's homebrew make a "how-to"
homebrew video?

Why would anyone buy a "how-to" homebrew video from someone who has never
tasted someone else's homebrew?

'Nuff said.

Steve Stroud


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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 91 10:31:39 EST
From: srussell at snoopy.msc.cornell.edu (Stephen Russell)
Subject: Delabeling and de-dms-ing

Hey dudes and dudettes,

"Big Dog" Sterling Udell asks:

>And now my question:  I've heard that prolonged soaking in the proper
>chemical will make even the most recalcitrant labels float right off.
>Problem is, I can't remember _what_ chemical it is.  Bleach?  Ammonia?
>Something like that?  Anyone know?

Ammonia.

I find that bleach does virtually nothing to the glue used to affix labels to
glass, but that a 2-12 hour soak in a moderately-strong ammonia solution
(same strength you'd use to clean your kitchen floor after brewing and before
your wife comes home :-) works just fine.  However, a bit of elbow grease is
required for foil labels such as Miller Lite; the ammonia can't penetrate the
foil the way it can the paper.

And the required word of warning:  rinse bottles well after the ammonia soak;
NEVER let ammonia and bleach come into contact with each other.


and from Larry Barello:

>Ok, you guru's in Net Land, I need help.  I have made several lagers.  Both
>of my light lagers (6lb klages, 2lb munich) have had pretty strong DMS
>smells when first poured.  It is not overwhelming, but it is strong enough
>to be a aroma defect.  I need hints on how to get this down.  I don't think

Larry, this is disturbing, 'cause it does sound as if you are doing everything
'right'.  DMS is produced to some degree during your post-boil steep, but my
first suspect is the malt.  Especially given that you are using Klages, which
I have never found to contribute much DMS.  Anyone else up there brewing from
the same lot of Klages?  Any of them having the same problem?

I have avoided using Klages in light lagers because it isn't malty enough to
my taste.  Part of this was an *absence* of slight notes of DMS, which are
acceptable in light lagers and seem to add to the malt character when present
in small amounts.  The German 2-row varieties work better, IMHO.

My gut feeling (no science here :-) is that you have a bad batch of malt.
To test this theory, I would induce one of your friends to brew using your
ingredients but his/her process (maybe that Richman fellow?)
To get around it altogether, use German 2-row in your lagers and use Klages
exclusively for wheat beers, steam beers, and light ales.

I really would like to hear how it works out for you.

IBU ERGO SUM,

STEVE

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Date: 22 Nov 91  16:12 EST
From: doug at metabolism.bitstream.com
Subject: Sam Adams List


          Greetings:

          I certainly enjoyed Ron Ezatta's "little ditty" on RedHook
          in HBD #765.  I have a similar matrix for Sam Adams
          products if anyone is interested they can contact me
          directly, with enough interest I'll post world wide.....ban
          wide.

          doug at bitstream.com

          \/\/\/\/\/\ No flames here \/\/\/\/\/\/\


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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 91 10:43:52 -0500
From: Charles Clark <clarkc at cs.unc.edu>

please remove me from the mailing list 

HankC

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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 91 10:37:50 EST
From: eisen at kopf.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Carl West)
Subject: De-labeling Bottles and pipe caps 


I've had reasonable success using an overnight soak with dishwasher detergent, 
1 or 2 tablespoons to ~5 gallons. For the foil labels it helps to scratch them 
up a bit beforehand. My favorite tool for that job is one of those $tainless $teel 
potscrubbers, which tool is also useful for getting the last of the glue off the 
bottles once the lables are gone.

If you're doing the slotted-pipe-in-a-cooler trick, don't bother putting a cap on it, 
just smash the end flat with a hammer. It's not like you need a good seal or something :)

Carl West

WISL,BM.



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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 91 07:54:31 PST
From: Richard.Stueven at Corp.Sun.COM (Richard Stueven)
Subject: Re: GLUG!

In HBD 767, Dick Dunn (rcd at raven.eklektix.com) suggests:
>You can get a good approximation to this by whirling the carboy as you turn
>it over.
>[...]
>BUT be careful when you give the carboy a swirl, that you don't end up
>smacking it against something and breaking it!

I try to pick up/move my carboy as little as possible for just this
reason!  Whenever it needs to be emptied, I start a siphon.  Sure it
takes longer, but it's so much safer that way.

Also, if I drop an empty carboy, I'll only have to deal with the broken
glass.  If I drop a full carboy, I'll also have to deal with my
downstairs neighbor.  Imagine his ire when beer comes dripping through
his ceiling!

Richard Stueven       AHA# 22584 |----------| You talk to me about picking up
Internet:       gak at Corp.Sun.COM |----GO----| the slack, then you turn around
ATTMAIL:         ...!attmail!gak |---SHARX--| and stab me right in the back...
Cow Palace: Sec 107 Row F Seat 8 |----------| Talk Is Cheap.

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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 91 08:16:16 PST
From: jeg at desktalk.com (John E. Greene)
Subject: Hops

I don't know if it is because of the mild weather we have been having here
in Los Angeles or what, but my hops have started to grow again.  I moved 
around two months ago and just before I did, I cut down the hop vines, dug
up the root and transplanted it at the new house.  Now I have a group of
vines sprouting up and they are now around 8 inches tall.  They are
understandably growing very slowly but they show no signs of dying back or
giving up.  I have a feeling that once the temperatures start to drop in
the low 40s they will get the picture that this is not the right time of the
year to be growing.  

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John E. Greene             Everyone needs something to believe in.  I believe 
Sr. Staff Engineer         I'll have another homebrew!
Desktalk Systems Inc.      
(213) 323-5998             internet:  jeg at desktalk.desktalk.com

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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 91 09:18:03 MST
From: mlh at cygnus.ta52.lanl.gov (Michael L. Hall)
Subject: Removing bottle labels

In response to Sterling Udell's question about which chemicals
are best to use for removing bottle labels, let me tell you about
my experience:

First of all, I think that the proper chemical to use is ammonia.
I have tried this and it works pretty well. However, just plain
old *water* works about as well. The main thing that is important 
is time. Don't be in a real hurry to get the labels off and you
won't have to work as hard. If you let the bottles soak for about 
a week or so the labels come off much easier. I filled up a plastic
garbage can with bottles and water and some ammonia, and then I
cleaned up a couple of bottles every day at lunch. Eventually I
had many more bottles than I could use.

One other thing: the ease of removing the labels is VERY brand-
dependent. Some brands have labels which will fall off after a
day of soaking. St. Pauli Girls and Becks (which are the same
type of bottle) do, but they're dark green instead of the 
preferred brown. They're pretty sturdy bottles, though, and I 
use them because I store my beer in the dark. The bottles I
really like are Dos Equis, but the labels are a *bitch* to get 
off. I usually soak them for a day or two to remove the foil
part of the label, and then another week or two to get the 
gummy paper off (which still requires some scrubbing).

Maybe someone else out there in email-land knows of the perfect
brand of bottle to use: one that is dark brown to protect from 
light, sturdy to protect from breakage by the avid bottler, 
covered with a label which falls off when looked at, and filled 
with an inexpensive beer which is very good to drink ;)

Personally, I think that the three brands that I have mentioned
come pretty close to achieving this, with the exception that
the St. Pauli Girls and Becks are green and the Dos Equis are
label-clingers and a little less sturdy.

Hope this helps,

Michael L. Hall
hall at lanl.gov

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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 91 08:55:55 -0800
From: mcnally at Pa.dec.com
Subject: oatmeal stout


If you don't mash the oatmeal, I don't see how you can get much out of it
other than a heck of a lot of unfermentable starch.  I've used it in
all-grain brews, adding it to the mash tun after boiling it briefly.  I
got no gumminess whatsoever in the boiler or (heaven forbid!) the
fermenter.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike McNally                                           mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation
Western Software Lab

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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1991 11:59 EST
From: STROUD%GAIA at leia.polaroid.com
Subject: New Celis Brewery in Austin, TX

Hi y'all!

A group of six Wort Processors travelled to Houston for the annual Dixie Cup
blow-out, then went to Austin with our friends Steve Black and Alan Ford for
lots of good beer, good Mexican food, sailing and swimming in Lake Travis, and a
visit to the new Celis Brewery. It's the last item I'd like to report on.

Pierre Celis was, until recently, the owner of the De Kluis brewery in Belgium,
best known for its classic wit (white) beer Hoegaarden.  After Mr. Celis sold
the brewery to megacorporation Interbrew, he started looking around for a site
in the US at which he could start a new brewery.  After considering several
other locations in the US, including St. Augustine, Florida, he eventually
settled on Austin, Texas.

Wort Processor Steve Black (now living in Austin & working for the U of T)
arranged for us to tour the new Celis Brewery, currently under construction.
It's located just east of Austin, off of Highway 290 in the Walnut Creek
Business Park.  Our hosts were Jan Van Gysegem, technical director, head
engineer, and brewmaster, and Peter Camps, who basically had the same titles but
was subordinate to Jan.  Peter is married to Pierre Celis' daughter Christine,
who will run the financial end of the business.  Pierre Celis was out of town
when we were there.

The $4.5 million brewery is well on the way to completion, with all walls and
ceilings up, kettles in place, and fermenters, aging tanks,etc. delivered but
not yet installed.  Plumbing, electrical, etc. work is all ongoing.  The brewing
equipment is from JV Northwest and is all brand new, except for the lovely
copper kettles which were brought over from Belgium.  I believe that Jan said
they were purchased from a brewery that had closed some years ago in Grimbergen.
They are trying as hard as possible to complete the brewery and get the first
batch out the door before Christmas, but that date is not certain.

Initial output of the brewery will be in the 10,000 barrel range, with an
installed capacity of about 35,000 barrels.  They own enough land so that they
can easily expand the breweryUs capacity to 50,000+ barrels if necessary.

Three beers are initially planned:  Celis White (a wit beer), Celis Gold (a
golden ale), and Celis Pale Bock (a true misnomer, this will be a copper colored
ale in the De Koninck style  The 'pale bock' name was chosen because of some
labelling requirements in Texas regarding the word 'ale' and alcoholic strength.
Some marketing person came up with pale bock.  I suspect that the fact that
Shiner Bock is amazingly popular in that area of Texas may have had something to
do with it also.).  All three beers will be made using the Hoegaarden yeast; the
wit beer will be bottle conditioned and the other two will be pasteurized.  All
beers will be both bottled and kegged.  We were told that the beers will sell
for a maximum price of $5.99/six pack.  

Ingredients will mostly be American.  Briess will do the malting of the barley
for them, although the raw wheat and oats for the wit beer will come from a
local source in Luckenback, Texas.  They discussed hops, though I didn't take
very good notes. I believe that Jan talked about using Willamette and Styrian
Goldings, among others.  Of course, the wit beer will have both coriander seed
and orange peel added.  Interestingly, Jan said that both the seed and the peel
are totally pulverized in a hammer mill before they are added to the boil.

Although Texas law allows them to do their own distribution, the brewery has
decided to use an outside company.  They feel that they don't currently have the
resources or manpower to do it themselves right now.  Initial distribution will
be limited to Texas, especially Austin, as well as the other major cities such
as Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio.  Distribution to other US states will occur
at some future date.

I must add that I was impressed by the knowledge and commitment of both Jan &
Peter.  It was clear upon talking to them that they are planning to make quality
products at a competitive price.  They are building a beautiful brewery and seem
to have located in an area that will support their products.  Hopefully they can
help wean Texans off of Budswiller and onto good beer, then expand to the rest
of the country.  I'm looking forward to visiting them again next fall and
sampling their products.  The guys in Texas have a real treat to look forward
to.

Steve Stroud


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Date: 25 November 1991 10:23:35 CST
From: "Roger Deschner" <U52983 at UICVM.uic.edu>
Subject: Window Screen, No-Flame Policy

Good, useful, non-metalic plastic-coated fiberglass window screen is
available at most Home Center type places such as Home Depot, Builder's
Square, Courtesy... I think it is sold under the WARP PLASTICS brand
name.

No-Flame Policy: YES!!!!

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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 91 09:09:20 -0800
From: mcnally at Pa.dec.com
Subject: DMS


Well, lucky you; I've just been reading Fix's "Brewing Science".

Lager malt is much more susceptible to DMS problems than the more
heavily-kilned ale malt.  The kilning reduces the precursor to DMS.

The solutions:  part of your problem could be that you do a closed 
chill.  The advantages of that may outweigh the disadvantages.  Letting
the ferment go for a long time is about all you can do.

Do you do decoction or infusion mashing?  Because you get some open
boil time in a decoction mash, you may get rid of some DMS at that
stage.  Perhaps Mr. Fix will comment on whether the decoction boil
contributes in the removal of DMS.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike McNally                                           mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation
Western Software Lab

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Date: 25 Nov 91 13:20:17 EDT
From: AEW at b30.prime.com


Fellow Homebrewers,

    I have been reading this digest for about two months now and last
night I had a few friends over to help me with my first batch. I
primed my yeast (Whitbread dry ale) in a sanitized 12 oz. bottle with
a fermentation lock according to directions given to my by the local
brewing supply store. This seemed to work great. I had a good flow of
bubbles and the yeast looked active.
    After boiling my humble extract wort and chilling it to
acceptable fermenting temperatures I uncapped the bottle of yeast and
poured it into the carboy with the chilled wort. Most of the
yeast/starter liquid poured into the carboy fairly easily, but about
1/2 an inch remained in the bottle. Not wanting to have my carboy
open too long, I set the bottle aside and fitted the carboy with a
blow by tube and jar.
    Here is my question: How do you insure that you get most of the
yeast/starter into your wort without it staying in your starter
bottle?
    This morning my blow by bottle was filled with lovely blow-off
foam and was happilly bubbling away. I was glad I didn't worry but I
still would like to get all of the yeast out of my starter bottles
in the future.

    Thanks in advance...

P.S. My thanks to all of the contributors of this digest for
providing informative conversation that turned a subtle interest of
mine into a (so far) enjoyable hobby. <|8^)  I am glad however, that I
joined before the recent flame wars. These most probably would have
turned me off before I ever got started :^(

===============================================================================
Allan Wright Jr.            | Pole-Vaulters Get a Natural High!
Seabrook, NH                +--------------------------------------------------
Internet: AEW at B30.PRIME.COM | These are my words only, drifting through time...
===============================================================================




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Date: 25 Nov 91 11:24 -0600
From: Jarrod J Loewen <jloper at ccu.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: Yeast lysing(sp?)

Hello fellow brewers.  This is submission #1 for me, however, I have been 
reading the digest for several months now and have increased my knowledge/
technique greatly.

I started an Idia Pale Ale 2 weeks ago, and still havn't had the time to rack
to the secondary. (Next batch I'll check my schedule in advance :)  My question
is how long does the yeast bed remain stable before it breaks down and produces
of flavors to the beer?  Also, how stongly does this affect the brew? It will 
be another 2 days yet before I can rack it.  Will I just have 5 gallons of 
fertilizer or if not, should I rack to a secondary for a week or so, or just
bottle right away?

Thanks for your help,

Jarrod J Loewen 		Computer Services 
jloper at ccu.UManitoba.ca         University of Manitoba, Canada 


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Date:    Mon, 25 Nov 1991 12:28:53 -0500 (EST)
From: YATROU at INRS-TELECOM.UQUEBEC.CA (Paul Yatrou)
Subject: RE: De-labeling Bottles     & Clearing agents

Sterling Udell writes:

>And now my question:  I've heard that prolonged soaking in the proper
>chemical will make even the most recalcitrant labels float right off.
>Problem is, I can't remember _what_ chemical it is.  Bleach?  Ammonia?
>Something like that?  Anyone know?

My wife swears by bicarbonate soda (cow brand or equivalent). She de-lables
a dozen wine bottles in a bucket of water with 2-3 tablespoons of soda.
Leaves them in the bucket for a day or so. Most of the labels fall off
on their own.
However, she still has problems with labels which have been heavily glued
on. I guess the scraper would solve that problem. Bleach doesn't seem to
work as well; I don't know about ammonia. B. soda also has the advantage
of being a kinder, gentler de-labler than the other two (on human hands,
that is).

I have a question: has anyone used polyclar and bentonite to clear beer
in the 2nd fermentation stage as Miller describes in the chapter on clearing?
Did it work?
I don't normally care about chill haze, but my current batch is **ETREMELY**
cloudy and I would like to do something about it.


(BTW, sorry about the quip: pop-psyche=gutter talk. I meant
street-psyche=gutter-talk!)
(Didn't want to get flamed, now, did I)

PY

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Date: 25 Nov 91 09:38:07 PST (Mon)
From: bryan at tekgen.bv.tek.com
Subject: Soaking labels off bottles

TSP works good for soaking the labels off bottles. My no-scrub method has
been to throw them win a garbage can with 1/4 to 1/2 cup of TSP and let
them soak for a week or so. If I don't get around to it in a week, I throw
some bleach in to keep the bottles from getting algae on them.

				Bryan

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Date: 25 Nov 91 13:15:23 EST
From: Jeff Frane <70670.2067 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Some Tips

Can anybody tell me why my postings take an extra day to get in the digest; I'm
sending them via CompuServe mail, true, but a few months ago this didn't cause
any noticeable delay. ???

Sterling Udell--The mystery chemical is tri-sodium phosphate (TSP) available in
the paint section at your neighborhood megamart. I use no distinct measurement,
just enough to make the water soapy to the touch. This soaks off labels, mold,
gunk, crap, munge and brown crud from carboys, kegs, bottles, the works. Rinse
thoroughly, then sanitize. Voila! If you soak with TSP, you shouldn't need
anything more abrasive than a plastic kitchen scrubber to get off the glue.
(P.S. Anchor uses some really cheap glue and these are the easiest labels of all
to get off.)

On window screens, etc.: I have to agree with korz that this sounds like a very
inefficient way of extracting sugars from the grain. From my own experience, I
can say that the configuration of the lauter tun and the false bottom have a
tremendous impact on extraction. Sugars really do have to be coaxed out; if you
give them any opportunity they will stay behind in the grain bed. If cost is a
concern here, then the system that Charlie Papazian suggests, with two plastic
buckets, is certainly a better solution. The buckets are cheap, and it only
requires some long boring minutes with a drill to put an adequate number of
holes in the upper bucket.

Dave Rose comments on his Chimay-style beer that he doesn't have adequate
control over temperature. A suggestion, if it would help: I use a 20-gallon
plastic trashcan for a water bath, with the carboy in the middle. I put in
enough water to match the liquid level *in* the carboy, then float an aquarium
heater (about $10) on a pad of styrofoam. Admittedly, this is of small help if
the room is too warm, but in the fall and winter I've found it easier to find a
too-cool space in which to place the fermenter. Several years ago, Zymurgy
printed an article on building an elaborate carboy warmer made from an insulated
box, heated by light bulbs. I've found the water bath cheaper and easier, and it
doesn't bombard the carboy with light.

Larry Barello: You're at Microsoft? in Seattle? Does this mean you're using
Klages malt? I know some of the European and midwestern malts are more likely to
generate DMS than Klages. Switching malt in that case is a good suggestion.
Stupid question No. 1: How sure are you that the aroma is DMS? Have others made
the same judgment? I only ask since I have watched judges miscall this
particular element. Perhaps you should send me a case of your lager for expert
evaluation.

David Douglass recommends The Homebrewer's Store. If this is the same outfit I
dealt with several years ago, but lost track of, they have incredible prices on
pelletized hops. By the pound. As I recall, I paid about $9 for a pound of Saaz
hops, and $6 for pounds of domestic hops. I've kept them in the freezer and they
are still working beautifully for me. 


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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 91 12:07:48 CST
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)

Subject: Kegs (George Fix)

Jeff in HBD#767 raises some important ethical issues that are 
worthy of serious consideration. However, as far as kegs are
concerned I think we are ok. I am an active member of MBAA-
District Texas, and every time a meeting is held is held in the
D/FW metroplex I always give a party at my house for the
participants. This usually includes production people from 
A-B (Houston), Millers (Ft.Worth), and others. I take this
opportunity to get feedback on my own beers, as well as my brewing
procedures.(Incidently, these folks disagree with each as much as we
do. Every brewer has his or her own style, and this is both natural and
desirable!) My "brewhouse" consists of three full kegs (two from A-B and
one from Millers). They have been cut and modified to serve as a hot
liquor tank, mash tun, and brew kettle, respectively. The first reaction
of the visitors is invariably ..."George, what have you done to our kegs!"
However, it is all in good fun. These kegs cost the breweries $15, and
they make draft outlets pay a $20 deposit for each. The latter (at least
down here) charges us $25 for each if purchased empty. The same is true for
half kegs except that each of the above prices is reduced by $5.This seems like
a win-win situation for all. Micros, on the other hand, likely pay more for
their kegs, and yet are forced to use the big boy's deposit policy. For
this reason we should avoid their kegs. Good point Jeff, I had not thought
about this issue before.

I would like to second Jeff's other point about commercial brewing. Chip 
made a similar point very eloquently in an earlier digest. Commercial brewers
deserve respect, and while our beers differ from theirs (as indeed we differ
among ourselves), there is still  a lot we can learn from them. Moverover, in my
opinion, the enemy is not A-B, nor is it ourselves (J.S.included!). The real
enemy is the unsavory band of prohibitionists who appear to be gaining in power
throughtout the country. I am particularly concerned about the disproportionate
number on nondrinking alcoholics in this group whose sole mission in life
appears to be in inflecting their own problems on everyone else.  

I use the following procedure for cleaning kegs:
  1. Stop the flow out of the fermenter near the end when it changes from
     clear to turbid.
  2. Release the pressure in the keg, and open it up. Collect some residual
     yeast for possible repitching; having some sterile beer around is useful
     for this.
  3. Rinse keg with hot water (120F) until visually clean; this can be checked 
     with a small flashlight.
  4. Add very hot water (170F) and unchlornated TSP, and then leave to soak. I
     sometimes leave it overnight.
  5. Rinse with hot water (120F).
  6. Fill keg with iodophor solution and leave for at least 15 mins. Diversity
     claims their product needs only 2 min. contact time, and are probably 
     correct.
  7. Remove iodophor solution, then seal and store keg.
  8. Rinse keg with approximately 24 oz. of sterile beer just before reuse.

NOTES:
  (i) The CO2 system used for beer transfer is great for pushing the solutions
      out of the keg.
  (ii) Previous posts noted that stains from metallic water are rust. This is
       is correct. Moreover, they can be removed by a variety of acid    
       solutions, ProKleen being only one. However, the point that should be
       stressed is that if left unattended these stains can build up and
       become progressively harder to remove. They obviously do nothing for
       our beers as well.
  
   
   


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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 91 07:31:40 CST
From: "Randy Pals" <pals at inland.com>
Subject: Carbonation using Wyeast Irish Stout

In HBD #763, Ken Weiss asks about the experience others have had
with carbonation using Wyeast Irish Stout (I believe its #1084).

I just made a porter using said yeast, popped the first bottle
in the fridge upon reading Ken's note, and have found the
carbonation to be just fine.  My yeast was dated October 2.
As a side note, the fermentation went significantly faster than
normal (3-4 days complete).  Aged 3 weeks at 68 F to this point.

Randy Pals
pals at inland.com


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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 91 10:56:23 PST
From: "John Cotterill" <johnc at hprpcd.rose.hp.com>
Subject: Question: Cleaning SS
Full-Name: "John Cotterill"

I know this has been discussed at length and I apologize for coming in late
on this one.  What is the best method to sanitize SS soda kegs (I use bleach
which does not seem to be the best)?  Please respond via e-mail.  Thanks.
John Cotterill
johnc at hprpcd.rose.hp.com

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Date: Mon Nov 25 09:25:29 1991
From: larryba at microsoft.com
Subject: steal this keg.

With regard to Jeff Frane's concern on how people aquire kegs: In
Seattle there is "Jon's" recycling.  They sell all recycled
kegs (SS or Aluminum) for a flat rate of $10/each.  I am certain any
large city will have a similar facility.  Jon's, unfortunately, doesn'
t usually carry soda kegs. I phoned around a bit and found a place in
Tacoma that claims to, but I have never actually been there.


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Date: 25 Nov 91 14:05:42 EST
From: Jeff Frane <70670.2067 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Homebrew Store

I phoned the 800 number for the Homebrew Store and spoke with Pat. He was pretty
definite that he was NOT interested in "little orders", but only in fairly large
amounts. For example, he seemed interested in my buying a 55# sack of British
pale malt and several pounds of hops, but not in any piddly orders like, say, a
pound of Saaz. He is also quite a talker, and loaded with information, so be
sure and use the 800 number.

Prices ARE good, though. For example, that 55# bag of British malt was at 85
cents/lb. (plus shipping, of course). 2-row Klages was 60 or 65 cents/lb. Saaz
and other imported hops (pellets) were at $12.50/lb. Domestic varieties were
$7.50/lb.



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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1991 11:57 PDT
From: ALTENBACH at NSSPA.llnl.gov
Subject: REBOTTLING (RE. Emily Breed question from HBD 767

     On the subject of rebottling beer from champagne bottles to 12 oz bottles
for competition entry: this is easily accomplished, especially if the beer
is adequately carbonated in its original bottle. The trick is to get the beer
as cold as possible without freezing in order to 
minimize the loss of carbonation during transfer. Leave the full bottles in 
a freezer for about one hour, also freeze the 12 oz bottles. Then quickly
and quietly tranfer contents and cap immediately. You don't need to add more
priming sugar. A bonus from this process is a sediment-free competition entry.
Fill one 12 oz bottle from each champagne bottle, and consume the remainder.
Also, less carbonation will be lost if the champagne bottle has a small
head space. Good luck at the Bay Area Brew Off. I'll be there as a judge.

Tom Altenbach

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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 91 15:57:53 -0500
From: zentnerl at ecn.purdue.edu (Lynn Zentner)
Subject: delabelling bottles

Yesterday, Sterling Udell posted about removing tough labels from bottles.
I liked the metal scraper idea, we will have to try it.

Anyhow, we soak our labels off in an ammonia solution, as suggested somewhere
in Papazian.  This works very well for most labels, except those stubborn
foil ones.  A great many labels virtually fall right off in this soln.  This
is great for us, since we keep a notebook of beer and wine labels from
things we've tried.  Anyhow, hope this helps.  For slightly stubborn labels
we want to save, we have found that a nylon thread can be pulled under
the label to cut through the glue.  This is probably a little too much
work though, if all you want is to get rid of labels and throw them out.
I highly recommend the ammonia idea, though.  We have been very pleased with
it.  By the way, call me insane, but I LIKE to bottle!  Pop some homebrews,
set up an assembly line in the kitchen with my husband, and it makes for
some pleasant together time.  Good luck.  Lynn Zentner

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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 91 17:13:50 EST
From: Chris Shenton <chris at endgame.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Window screen

On Fri, 22 Nov 91 13:57 CST, korz at ihlpl.att.com said:

Al> All the modern window screens I've seen in my area, are made of some
Al> mystery metal.  It doesn't rust, so it's not steel, it oxidizes too
Al> easily and the oxide is too dark to be aluminum.  Maybe it's galvanized
Al> steel.  The oxide comes off on your hands very easily.  Jack's idea is
Al> inventive, but I would recommend against using window screen.

I got some *stainless* screen from the following folks. It's not cheap, but
you don't need too much. I've also included some of the ordering info for
it for those who want to track it down.

McMaster-Carr: P. O. B. 440; New Brunswick, NJ 08903-0440

        ITEM		stainless steel mesh
	GRADE		bolting
	OPEN AREA	70.4%
	MESH		18x18		(lines/inch)
	MMC#		9230T32
	LENGTH		1 foot
	WIDTH		48 inches
	COST/SQ.FT.	$5.55
	TOTAL SIZE	4 SQ.FT.

	SUBTOTAL	$22.20
	SHIPPING	$ 2.00
	-----------	------
	TOTAL		$24.20


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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 91 16:43 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: little to do with brewing

Jack-- If you are anal-retentive about aluminum, you may want to check
the ingredients of your anti-perspirant.  By the way, your "ORGANIC MALT"
post was well done... your "STUFF" post should have been posted to /dev/null.
I think you haven't yet learned what belongs in HDB and what doesn't.  Please
try to.
Al.

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Date:         Mon, 25 Nov 91 17:37:21 EST
From: "Jeffrey R." <ST801977 at brownvm.brown.edu>
Subject:      Re: Homebrew Digest #765 (November 21, 1991

Keg Users:
I'm interested in kegging my beer, and looking in the five to seven
gallon range.  The only brands I've seen are ROTOKEG and EDME.  Are
these kegs worth the investment?  I was also curious how you cool the
beer?  Can you extend the lines and run them through a cooler?  I'm
pretty sure that I don't want to invest in a Cornelius system so if
anyone can help me out I'd appreciate it.

                                  Jeff Rago     ST801977 at brownvm.brown.edu

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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1991 15:24:16 -0800
From: judyb at waldo.asd.sgi.com (Judy Bergwerk)
Subject: Re: Removing labels

Sterling Udell asked what chemical works for soaking off labels.  

I've heard that TSP works really well.  

~Judy




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End of HOMEBREW Digest #768, 11/26/91
*************************************
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