---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Counterflow Temp Variations (C.R. Saikley)
  Homebrew Digest #768 (November 26, 1991)
  Irish brewing? (Robert Bradley)
  importing yeast (chuck)
  Carbonation using Wyeast Irish Stout ("Randy Pals")
  SS kegs / Chilling wort (Tom Dimock)
  Christmas Greens (wbt)
  Sam Adams Matrix (doug)
  Boiler/Chiller Construction - Part 1 (Tom Dimock)
  Environment/health concerns about bottle cleaning (Mark James Easter)
  Free BEER by phone!!! (Chris Shenton)
  Irish Beer (Jeff Frane)
  NUFF (Jack Schmidling)
  How Michael Jackson got his job (Desmond Mottram)
  De-labeling, bottle sources. (S94TAYLO)
  All-grain boil and evaporation (Steve Anthony)
  Cost of Kegs (Jeff J. Miller)
  request subscription (BARNEY COSTELLO  27-Nov-1991 0953)
  DMS and Diacetyl (HBD 769) ("Jean B. Hunter")
  Soda Kegging Questions. (key)
  Returnable Bottles (Tom Nolan)
  Party Balls Make Great Lamps (Arthur Delano)
  Homebrew Digest #769 (November 27, 1991) ("Joe T. Coohill")
  When yeast gets old and dies... (Rich Lenihan)
  perfect bottles (RUBICON READY)
  Bottle Labels, Bottles, & m (Chris McDermott)
  Re: Bottles and labels  (Dave Coombs)
  Cost of Kegs (George Fix)
  grain->infection (Russ Gelinas)


Send submissions to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues!]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 91 10:59:58 PST
From: grumpy!cr at uunet.UU.NET (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: Counterflow Temp Variations

>From uunet!hpfcmi.fc.hp.com!rdg Tue Nov 26 01:12:26 1991
Received: by grumpy.UUCP (5.51/4.7)
	id AA21741; Tue, 26 Nov 91 01:11:59 PST
Received: from relay.hp.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP 
	(5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA20032; Tue, 26 Nov 91 03:17:47 -0500
Received: from hpfcrdg.fc.hp.com by relay.hp.com with SMTP
	(16.6/15.5+IOS 3.13) id AA16755; Tue, 26 Nov 91 00:17:44 -0800
Received: by hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
	(15.11/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA14053; Tue, 26 Nov 91 01:00:09 mst
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 91 01:00:09 mst
Message-Id: <9111260800.AA14053 at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com>
To: homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
From: uunet!hpfcmi.fc.hp.com!homebrew-request (Verify address before sending)
Reply-To: uunet!hpfcmi.fc.hp.com!homebrew (CHANGE THIS IF NECESSARY)
Errors-To: uunet!hpfcmi.fc.hp.com!homebrew-request
Precedence: bulk
Subject: Homebrew Digest #768 (November 26, 1991)
Status: R



HOMEBREW Digest #768		             Tue 26 November 1991


	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Irish brewing? (Robert Bradley)
  importing yeast (chuck)
  Carbonation using Wyeast Irish Stout ("Randy Pals")
  SS kegs / Chilling wort (Tom Dimock)
  Christmas Greens (wbt)
  SS Fermentors, Melting, Aluminum, and Chiller vs Chiller (Michael Zentner)
  Kegs and theft (gkushmer)
  Stuck Fermentation (CCL-F) <dskeldon at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
  Jack Schmidling's video (STROUD)
  Delabeling and de-dms-ing (Stephen Russell)
  Sam Adams List (doug)
  De-labeling Bottles and pipe caps  (Carl West)
  Re: GLUG! (Richard Stueven)
  Hops (John E. Greene)
  Removing bottle labels (Michael L. Hall)
  oatmeal stout (mcnally)
  New Celis Brewery in Austin, TX (STROUD)
  Window Screen, No-Flame Policy ("Roger Deschner")
  DMS (mcnally)
  Yeast lysing(sp?) (Jarrod J Loewen)
  RE: De-labeling Bottles     & Clearing agents (Paul Yatrou)
  Soaking labels off bottles (bryan)
  Some Tips (Jeff Frane)
  Kegs (George Fix)
  Carbonation using Wyeast Irish Stout ("Randy Pals")
  Question: Cleaning SS ("John Cotterill")
  steal this keg. (larryba)
  Homebrew Store (Jeff Frane)
  REBOTTLING (RE. Emily Breed question from HBD 767 (ALTENBACH)
  delabelling bottles (Lynn Zentner)
  Re: Window screen (Chris Shenton)
  little to do with brewing (korz)
  Re: Homebrew Digest #765 (November 21, 1991 ("Jeffrey R.")
  Re: Removing labels (Judy Bergwerk)


Send submissions to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues!]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 91 15:15:39 -0500
From: bradley at adx.adelphi.edu (Robert Bradley)
Subject: Irish brewing?

Howdy Fellow Brewers!

I've been off the list since the 4th of July due to a change of job to a
college that only got internet last week.  I was amazed at how cut off I
felt without it!  But it's great to be back and see all the familiar
names and pick up new tips (200 batches and I've only scratched the 
surface...what a great vocation!).  First thing I noticed was how much
longer the HDBs seem to be now.  I was a little disappointed to realize
that the difference is largely to be explained in terms of flames and
counter-flames.  Others have already spoken my mind on that issue.....

What I want to know about is the history of Irish brewing.  As a fifth-
generation descendant who's been learning about his roots lately, I
want to know as much as I can about traditional brewing in Ireland.  For
example, Guinness: less than 2 centuries old, right?  Did it evolve
logically, or was it an imported idea (from London, presumably, in the
porter tradition).  Harp, and especially Guinness Gold, are clearly
latecomers to the scene.  What about Smithwick's, the bitter which
always accompanies Guinness and Harp in an Irish pub?  A latecomer as
well?  One can't help but notice that it's sweeter than most English
bitter, and therefore has much in common with Scottish ale.  All this
to-ing and fro-ing between Ireland and Scotland over the centuries.....
'Course, I can speculate as well as anybody else, but I wonder if anybody
actually knows?

Gald to be back,

Rob Bradley
(bradley at adx.adelphi.edu)

- ------------------------------

Date: Mon Nov 25 03:18:03 1991
From: synchro!chuck at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: importing yeast

Does anybody know what the rules are concerning bringing yeast into the US?
I may have an opportunity to get some yeast samples in London.  I have brought
samples in before (please don't tell), but I'm not sure about the legality.

 - -----
Chuck Cox
SynchroSystems
chuck%synchro at uunet.uu.net


- ------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 91 21:38:09 CST
From: "Randy Pals" <pals at inland.com>
Subject: Carbonation using Wyeast Irish Stout

In HBD #763, Ken Weiss asks about the experience others have had
with carbonation using Wyeast Irish Stout (I believe its #1084).

I just made a porter using said yeast, popped the first bottle
in the fridge upon reading Ken's note, and have found the
carbonation to be just fine.  My yeast was dated October 2.
As a side note, the fermentation went significantly faster than
normal (3-4 days complete).  Aged 3 weeks at 68 F to this point.

Randy Pals
pals at inland.com


- ------------------------------

Date:         Mon, 25 Nov 91 08:07:27 EST
From: Tom Dimock <RGG at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:      SS kegs / Chilling wort

Alan Gerhardt mentions the difficulty of examining the interior of
a SS keg.  Difficult, but not impossible - a small bulb on a wire
(christmas tree bulb will work) and an examination mirror and you really
can look at the inside of a keg.  Your local hardware probably has
inspection mirrors ( a mirror on a stick - sort of like what the
dentist uses) but make sure you've measured your keg hole before you
go shopping for one.

I brewed my first batch in my new boiler this weekend.  It's an
electrically heated converted 15.5 gallon keg.  The chiller is a
counter-flow chiller made with 24 feet of 1/2" copper.  It can
take 5 gallons of boiling wort down to pitching temperature (85 F)
in four minutes!  If people would be interested, I'd be glad to
do a series of posts describing the construction of the boiler/chiller
combination in some detail.

- ------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 91 8:43:04 EST
From: wbt at cbema.att.com
Subject: Christmas Greens

> From: Emily Breed 1-415/545-2637 <EMBREED at SFOVMIC1.VNET.IBM.COM>
> 
> A lack of foresight is taking its toll.  We brewed up a batch of spiced
> ale for Christmas and bottled it in Martinelli's Sparkling Cider bottles
> (dark green, probably about 23 ounces).  Now we've gotten the idea of
> entering it in the Bay Area Brewoff mentioned in today's HBD.
> [can it be rebottled?]

How about another approach?  Wrap the bottle in aluminum foil, then get
some green cellophane and wrap over that.  Tie it up around the neck of the
bottle with a nice red ribbon and bow, and instead of a label, tie a gift
tag around the neck with the label information writton on by hand.  In
other words, make it look like a Christmas present, and in the process, 
light-proof.

Maybe you could just use wrapping paper, but I'd have more confidence in
the foil and it'll look snazzier, I think.  There's also gold-colored foil
available; try craft stores.

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker       AT&T Network Systems - Columbus            cbema!wbt
Quality Engineer      Network Wireless Systems       wbt at cbnews.att.com


- ------------------------------

From: zentner at ecn.purdue.edu (Michael Zentner)

>Re: COUNTERFLOW vs TUBE-THROUGH-BUCKET-OF-ICE-WATER

>I prefer to use my counterflow (partly because I was so "anal" during the
>construction of it that I feel I MUST use it).  Most important to me, though,
>is that once flow is established, the wort coming out of it is always at the
>same temperature, so I know exactly how cool it will be.  In the bucket of
>ice- wort through tubing method, the initial wort is REAL cold, and after the
>ice melts and you are using a bucket of chilled water, the wort is warmer.
>It's difficult to predict what the final bulk temperature of the wort will
>be.  

I'd like to add that depending on your setup, you may not always know
what the final temp will be, even if you use a standard concentric tube
counterflow chiller (ie garden hose and copper tubing). I learned this 
the first time I used my 15.5 gal keg boiler, and ended up doing an 
inadvertant, uncontrolled experiment with yeast pitching temperatures. 

My boiler is equiped with a ball valve at the bottom, and a compression
fitting to connect to the heat exchanger. When the boil was over, I 
turned on the cold water, let the wort flow, and adjusted the rates to
get the desired temperature. I filled and pitched into three carboys
in succession. Later, I noticed that carboy #1 began fermenting more
quickly and vigorously than #2, which was quicker than #3. The same
starter culture was used for all three. Even though it was a stout, the 
finished beer was markedly different as well.

Upon reflection, the explanation became apparent. As the level in the
boiler decreased, the flow rate slowed since it's all gravity fed.
The slower flow rate resulted in each successive carboy getting cooler
wort, and thus the different yeast behavior. To get consistent pitching
temps from carboy to carboy, I must adjust the flow rates during chilling.


"Just say no to flames"

CR

Return to table of contents


Date: 26 Nov 91  14:15 EST
From: doug at metabolism.bitstream.com
Subject: Sam Adams Matrix

          Due to the huge response I've decided to Sam Adams matrix
          directly to the board.  This came from a publication that
          was distriubted at the WBUR Public Radio fund..... you know


          Sam Adams Boston Lager
          ----------------------
          Malt:  2-row Klages/Harrington, Caramel 60
          Hops:  Hallertau Mittelfreuh
                 Tettnang Tettnanger
          Yeast: Lager, bottom fermenting
          Avail: Year round
          History of Recipe:  Koch family- 1870
          First Brewed:  1985
          OG:   1.052
          ****************************

          Sam Adams Boston Stock Ale
          --------------------------
          Malt:  2-row Klages/Harrington, Caramel 60
          Hops:  Saaz, English Goldings, English Fuggles
          Yeast:  Top Fermenting Ale Yeast
          Avail:  Year round
          History of Recipe:  Koch family - 1930's
          First Brewed:  1988
          Starting Gravity:  1.056
          ******************************

          Boston Lightship
          ----------------
          Malt:  2-row Klages/Harrington, Caramel (no 60? misprint?)
          Hops:  Saaz, Hallertau Mittelfrueh
                 Carmel 60
          Yeast:  Bottom Fermenting Lager Year
          Avail:  Year round
          History of Recipe:  Patented-1987
          First Brewed:  1987
          Starting Gravity:  1.032
          *******************************

          Samuel Adams Double Bock
          -------------------------
          Malt:  2-row Klages/Harrington, Caramel 60
          Hops:  Hallertau Mittelfrueh, Tettnang Tettnanger
          Yeast:  Bottom Fermenting Lager Yeast
          Avail:  Mid February
          History of Recipe:  Double first wort mash developed 1988
          First Brewed:  1988
          Starting Gravity:  1.081
          ********************************

          Octoberfest
          -----------
          Malt:  2-row Klages/ Harrington, Caramel 60
          Hops:  Hallertau Mittelfrueh, Tettnang Tettnanger
          Yeast:  Bottom fermenting Lager Yeast
          Avail:  Mid September
          History of Recipe:  Tradition Brewing Style
          First Brewed:  1989
          Starting Gravity:  1.056
          *********************************

          Winter Lager
          ------------
          Malt:  2-row Klages/Harrington, Caramel 60 Malted Wheat
          Hops:  English Goldings, Hallertau Mittelfrueh
                 Tettnang Tettnanger
          Yeast:  Bottom Fermented Lager Yeast
          Avail:  Mid-November
          History of Recipe:  Varies Yearly
          First Brewed:  1989
          Starting Gravity:  Varies Yearly
          ***********************************

          Sorry, Cranberry didn't make the list.  Good luck

          doug at bitstream.com

          What is Harrington by the way?


Return to table of contents


Date:         Tue, 26 Nov 91 15:53:11 EST
From: Tom Dimock <RGG at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:      Boiler/Chiller Construction - Part 1


Having received several mail files expressing interest in my
brewkettle construction, and having been re-assured by G. Fix
that my use of an A-B keg doesn't make me a despicable criminal,
I will describe the construction of my brewkettle and chiller.
Note that I would NOT use a keg from a microbrewer, only A-B or
Miller, who will not be hurt by my action.

Building a Modern Electrikal Brew Kettle - Part 1

I'd like to start out by noting that low cost was not my primary
goal - although I may not be as over-paid as those Rich men from
Microsoft (sorry Darryl, I couldn't resist :-)), I can afford to
appease my own desire to have a really NICE brewkettle.  The use
of a keg was based on the fact that it makes a really great
kettle, and only secondarily that they are really cheap.

The first step is to remove the tapping core.  This has been very
well described by George Fix in recent HBD's, so I won't describe
the process in detail.  It is important to release the pressure
in the keg by pushing down on the ball valve with a big
screwdriver.  Wrap a towel around it, unless you like being
showered with Bud Lite!

The next step is to cut out the top of the keg.  The kegs are 16"
in diameter, so an 8" hole in the top works quite nicely.  I know
of at least 5 ways to perform this step.

1)  Drill a couple of holes in the top and then saw between them
    with a Sawz-All (a heavy duty version of a hand jig saw, for
    those of you who are not tool freaks).  The stainless steel
    that the kegs are made of is very tough, so you will need to
    use carbide blades - the SS will just round off the teeth on
    a normal hacksaw blade.  This is a noisy and expensive way to
    do it, as you'll probably chew up several blades.

2)  Use an abrasive blade in a circular saw.  The blade is meant to
    cut in a straight line, so getting it to cut in a circle is a
    little tricky.  You always want to wear eye protection when
    cutting metal, but if you try this method be sure you have
    heavy duty eye (and ear) protection. There is a distinct
    possibility of having the blade bind in the cut and throw you,
    the saw (which is running), and the keg about quite vigorously.
    Although others have recommended this method, I think it is
    too dangerous and cannot recommend it.

3)  Drill a lot of little holes right next to each other and then
    bang it out with a hammer.  Again the toughness of the steel is
    a problem, but I have found cobalt drill bits (available in many
    hardware stores) can stand up to it. Using a 5/32" bit, you'ld
    need to drill about 150 holes, so have a HB handy for when you
    get thirsty (but not too many - safety first!).  This will leave
    a very rough edge, which you can the even out with a half round
    bastard (no gutter talk here - that's really what they're called)
    file, or with an angle grinder if you have one.

4)  Cut it out with an oxy-acetylene torch.  Unfortunately, stainless
    cuts very poorly with oxy-acetylene, which leaves you with a lot
    of slag and crud to clean up with an angle grinder.  A file might
    do it, but slag tends to be harder, so you might just end up using
    the keg to smooth out the file!

5)  Take the keg to a welding shop and have them do it with a plasma
    torch.  This is really the right way to do it.  You might be able
    to wangle a barter deal - I've never met a welder who didn't drink
    beer.

So which way did I do it?  Number four, because I own the torch and
could borrow the angle grinder.  Which would I recommend?
    Number 1 - No. Too hard, and because carbide blades are expensive,
               you wouldn't be saving much money.
    Number 2 - No. Too dangerous.
    Number 3 - Yes. You can buy the bit and the file for about $10
               and an electric drill should be easy to borrow if
               you don't own one.
    Number 4 - Yes, but only if you already have or can borrow the
               the tools.
    Number 5 - Yes.

Now RDWHAHB.  Next installment we'll work on the heating elements.

I'd like to thank those whose idea I've used in this project -
Bill "Veg" Noon for the basic design of the boiler, and Steve
Russell and Tom Strasser for ideas on chiller construction.  And
of course all of you out there in net-land who have discussed
these topics over time.

Tom Dimock     --    Flame your kettle, not the net!

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 Nov 91 13:05:24 PDT
From: Mark James Easter <easterm at ccmail.orst.edu>
Subject: Environment/health concerns about bottle cleaning

I'm responding to peoples comments about the use of chemicals to
remove labels from bottles.  The candidates seem to be: 

     1) plain old water; 
     2) a weak solution of ammonia; 
     3) a weak solution of chlorine bleach; and 
     4) a weak solution of tri-sodium phosphate (TSP).

     I suggest that brewers consider the environmental and health
impacts of using chemicals for removing labels.  Environmentally,
all three of the above chemicals will eventually either
biodegrade or react to produce relatively benign substances. 
Phosphates and ammonia, however, have been directly implicated in
stream and lake eutrophication.  Sodium (in bleach and TSP) in
ground water (from salting highways and industrial sources) is
becoming a significant health hazard in urban areas.  Exposure to
chlorine compounds and ammonia has been implicated in liver and
kidney disorders, as well as other health hazards.  Why not try
plain old water?  A little elbow grease will provide good
training for the 12 oz. curls we do this for.
     While working in a certain "dry" middle eastern country, I
(and my compatriots) had to find a way to dispose of illicitely-
obtained Heineken bottles without alerting the trash disposal
authorities that we had contraband on hand.  Our solution was to
boil the bottles for about 30 minutes, during which the paper
came apart and the glue came off the bottles.  We composted the
paper mush until it was unreadable (that took several months), or
burned it, and broke up the bottles.


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 Nov 91 17:48:45 EST
From: Chris Shenton <chris at endgame.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Free BEER by phone!!!

Saw this number on a co-worker's whiteboard.

I just called up 1-800-627-5888: it's a Coors Club survey -- answer two
questions by hitting buttons on your touch-tone phone, then speak your name
and address into a recording. Then, supposedly, they send you a coupon good
for a case or something of free beer. Guess which one :-)

At least it would be good for rinsing your carboys...

Return to table of contents


Date: 26 Nov 91 17:53:58 EST
From: Jeff Frane <70670.2067 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Irish Beer

Rob Bradley asks about Irish brewing history: My father discovered an
interesting piece while doing some research on the politics of food(!). In an
apparent attempt to destroy the Irish brewing industry during the height of
British oppression (the 18th century?), the English prohibited the importation
of hops. Apparently the Irish had little or no hop fields and, according to
Henry Hobhouse in The Seeds of Change, this resulted in the production of
porter. (Hobhouse apparently considered porter to be low in hop usage, which is
different from what Terry Foster says. This also fails to take into
consideration the importance of the water available for brewing, which
definitely had an impact on the production of porter in Dublin (and London, for
that matter). ) Given the Irish propensity for smuggling, it's also likely that
they were getting their hops somehow, at least enough for porter production.
	For no obvious reason, I get the impression that brewing came fairly late to
Ireland, and that whiskey played a larger part. It would be interesting to learn
whether Ireland raises any barley or hops.
	You could probably learn a lot by contacting the Guinness Brewery in Dublin.


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 Nov 91 17:52 CST
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: NUFF

 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 91 08:56:12 -0500
 From: zentner at ecn.purdue.edu (Michael Zentner)
 
 Jack Schmidling writes:
 > It will NEVER melt and all your rhetoric will never change that fact.
 
 <I'd like to take you up on this bet, Jack.  Calculations and phase diagrams
 be damned...if I had 30 spare bucks and a video cam (and I don't), I'd be
 willing to prove to you that you can melt a SS pot while trying to boil
 water.
 
 I will settle for a public admission that you are wrong.  I will pay for the 
 kettle if you can melt it on a stove while full of water.
 
 >  Now, if you were saying that you couldn't melt it on a home stove,
 I agree with you, but there are stoves (I like to call blast furnaces on 
 legs) on which you could burn a hole in such a pot. 
 
 Prove it.
 
 >As a fellow brewer here will also attest, you can burn a hole in one of 
 these pots on your electric stove when the coil burns out (ie melts and 
 explodes).
 
 That's called spot welding and does not qualify for the bet.  Nor does the 
 use of oxygen or a concentrated flame of the type used for cutting.
 
 >  What does anyone know about the absorption of aluminum into the body
    from the use of antiperspirants?  As most of you know, antiperspirants
    are based on some reactive aluminum compound (AlCl3 is one) which
    readily reacts with water.  So, how many of you play it safe here as
    well? 
 
 Would it surprise anyone to learn that I avoid using underarm stuff with 
 aluminum and make my own baking powder to avoid eating alum?  
 
 
 Re: COUNTERFLOW vs TUBE-THROUGH-BUCKET-OF-ICE-WATER
 
 >In the bucket of ice- wort through tubing method, the initial wort is REAL 
 cold, and after the ice melts and you are using a bucket of chilled water, 
 the wort is warmer.
 
 I am not sure why the creative process must stop with one bag of ice.
 
 I gave up on the ice and hooked the buket to the water tap with an over-flow 
 out to a drain.  I would however, like to caution prospective builders of an 
 impass I ran into that makes MINE just about useless.
 
 On the assumption that, more is better, I used 1/4 inch tubing so that I 
 could get 50 ft into my bucket or kettle, depending on how I use it.  It 
 turns out that better isn't always practical.  Nothing I tried would increase 
 the flow rate above about 20 minutes per gal.  Two hours is more than I want 
 to spend chilling wort.  Moral.... use 3/8 or 1/2 inch tubing.
 
 The last batch I used it in the emersion mode and it cooled it down in about 
 30 minutes.  Total time was two hours for various reasons but most of that 
 time was while I was getting it ready.  I wanted to compare the clarity after 
 comparable settling time and was disappointed in the results.
 
 The emersion chilled wort was far more turbid than what I had previously 
 gotten by the instant chill, flow through.
 
 From: STROUD%GAIA at leia.polaroid.com
 
 >About this video, though:
 
 Here we go again.  I have been asked to refrain from plugging my video on the 
 air and I obviously have ceased to do so.  However, when I or it am publicly 
 criticized by one who has neither seen the video nor met me, I demand the 
 right to protest.
 
 >Why would someone who has never tasted anyone else's homebrew make a 
 "how-to" homebrew video?
 
 I have tasted Bud and my own hombrew and think lots of people "out there" 
 (the real out there not HBDland) could benefit from my humble experience.
 
 >Why would anyone buy a "how-to" homebrew video from someone who has never
 tasted someone else's homebrew?
 
 For the same reason that I bought a can of malt and yeast years ago even 
 though I had never tasted homebrew.  I took a chance.  Furthermore, the 
 prospects in my target market are not quite as hung up as you "experts."
 
 >'Nuff said.
 
 Right.  Vote the county dry then move out.
 
 Nuff will be said when you stop bringing it up.
 
js

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 27 Nov 91 10:29:03 GMT
From: des at swindon.swindon.ingr.com (Desmond Mottram)
Subject: How Michael Jackson got his job

> From: rak at mayo.EDU (Ron Karwoski)
> Subject: Michael Jackson....
> 
> This past weekend myself and five other members of our homebrew club
> had the pleasure of attending a homebrew tasting with Michael Jackson
> in Minneapolis...
     [tasting details deleted]
> The Beer Hunter was a cogenial and entertaining fellow. His talk and
> comments on the homebrew were well recieved and he signed books for
> a couple of hours. Does anyone know how this guy got his job and if he
> needs an assistant?

Basically MJ is a journalist who hit upon a novel angle: make a story out
of his favourite pastime! He wrote articles about beers, brewers and 
brewing. The launch of the CAMRA newspaper "What's Brewing" gave him an 
ideal start. The articles were good, they sold and the rest is history. You 
don't have anyone in the US doing it. Give it a try. One warning, I believe 
he works very hard. He has to travel all over the world tasting beers and 
whiskys wherever he goes. He says it's a tough life but someone has to do it :-)

Rgds, Desmond Mottram
des at swindon.swindon.ingr.com

Return to table of contents


Date:     Wed, 27 Nov 91 08:31 EST
From: <S94TAYLO%USUHSB.bitnet at VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:  De-labeling, bottle sources.

>From all I have heard, sodium carbonate is the best stuff for delabelling,
but what happens if it's late at night and you just ran out of sodium
carbonate.  I have it on good authority that plain old sodium BIcarbonate,
baking soda, works well also.  About 1/4 box in a sink of warm water does
the trick.
As for source of bottles, it really doesn't matter.  If the bottles have
paper labels, it will be very easy and require a short soak.  If they are
foil, it will take a little longer (since foil doesn't get soggy), but
by just scratching the surface a few times with a fork will significantly
speed up the process.
Unless you live in anti-alcohol counties like Montgomery County, MD or states
like Utah, just go to any liquor store that sells longnecks and pay the
deposit.  Some bars will even save longnecks for you in the original sturdy
box, and you may not even have to pay the deposit.
Al Taylor
Uniformed Services University
School of Medicine
Bethesda, Maryland

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 27 Nov 91 09:17:29 EST
From: Steve Anthony <steveo at Think.COM>
Subject: All-grain boil and evaporation

I'm getting ready to do my first all-grain batch and have been reading thru
TCJoHB, visualizing the steps and figuring out all the details ahead of
time. (It's because it's a small kitchen; I have to be organized or I get
inundated with mess quickly). One thing that's caught my eye is the amount
of evaporation that is counted on during the boil. While I don't have the
book in front of me, I believe the values were something like 1.5q of water
to be boiled off.

Now, my house, even in the winter, is plenty humid enough. In the summer, I
can't even conceive of adding that ammount of vapor to the house. Perhaps,
relative to a shower, it's not that much, but the bathroom has an exhaust
fan, and the kitchen doesn't (it has one of those fans that suck up the
smoke, filer the grease, and send the air back into the room).

When I do extract or partial grain recipies now, I do use an ajar lid
during the boil, and am happy with the results. But when I go to the big
leagues... 

So my question is, is the evaporation necessary? Can I just start out with
less liquid and use a lid to prevent the vast bulk of moisture from
escaping? Or is there some more fundemental purpose served by the
evaporation? How have others coped (if indeed they felt the need to cope)
with this? Any I not relaxing?

Prosit!

Steveo

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 27 Nov 91 8:17:42 CST
From: jmiller at anubis.network.com (Jeff J. Miller)
Subject: Cost of Kegs


Like many of us, I have been dreaming about opening a brewery/pub/homebrew
supply business for some time now.  In doing so I've talked extensively with
Summit (local brewery - very fine - and Mark is a great guy!) as well as
poured through LOTS of industry materials.

Summit buys used kegs and price is dependent upon availability.  If he can
find enough and can afford them he might see a used keg for only $30.  More
likely they end up costing him upwards of $60 or more.  Something to keep
in mind is that Summit uses the two prong tap (Hoff-Stevens?) which is being
phased out because of the labor involved in filling and cleaning the keg.

If you care to talk about newer kegs with the single point of entry (Miller),
you wont find them for sale on the used keg market and if you did they would
demand a HIGH price because of there demand.

In looking at adds from Sparten and others it seems clear that the list prices
for these kegs is usually well over $200.  Even with bulk order reductions in
price, I think were still looking at the breweries shelling out BIG bucks for
the keg.

So... looking for a cheap brewpot/fermenter!  Check out the used dairy
equipement.  You can usually pick stuff up for scrap prices.

- -- 
Jeff Miller                 Network Systems Corporation
Internetwork Group          7600 Boone Avenue North
jmiller at network.com         Minneapolis MN 55428   (612)424-4888

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 27 Nov 91 06:52:12 PST
From: BARNEY COSTELLO 27-Nov-1991 0953 <costello at cimnet.enet.dec.com>
Subject: request subscription


Hi!  I'd like to get the homebrew digest, my address is CIMNET::COSTELLO

Thanks!

Barney Costello

p.s. I'm in the Digital network, I guess you can figure out the entire
address from where this note came from.

Thanks again.

Return to table of contents


Date:         Wed, 27 Nov 91 09:39:48 EST
From: "Jean B. Hunter" <MS3Y at CORNELLA.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:      DMS and Diacetyl (HBD 769)

Larryba asks if bacteria can make diacetyl.  Yes, a Zymomonas infection will
produce loads of diacetyl as well as acetaldehyde wich is green and fruity
smelling.  I have been using a pressure cooker (15 lb, 20 minutes) to
sterilize my starters right in the starter bottle and have had no trouble
with infected starters even if they are stored for months before using.

Re DMS and malt:  the sulfur compounds added to malt before kilning to
inhibit nitrosamine formation, and any sulfur-containing fungicides used to
preserve malt and hops, can be converted to elemental sulfur during wort
preparation.  During fermentation, the yeast use this sulfur as an electron
acceptor, first reducing it to H2S, then linking on methyl groups to give
methyl sulfides.  The problem with sulfur in the wort is that it cannot be
eliminated by ventilated boiling and sparging since it's not volatile.
The only solutions I can think of are changing yeasts (to a strain less
eager to reduce sulfur) or changing malts.  Hope there are other approaches,
as these are admittedly not very satisfying.  Cheers -- Jean

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 27 Nov 91 10:37:02 EST
From: key at cs.utk.edu
Subject: Soda Kegging Questions.

Greetings all,
  I've been following some of the Soda Kegged Homebrew discussions
and think I'm going to try it myself this winter .  I've got a
supplier for used soda kegs lined up and one of the local brew shops
(Brewhaus, here in Knoxville) has everything else I need and
a good price on it, except CO2 - they want $88 for a 5lb (filled).

My questions to the group are:
1) where do you get your tanks and get re-fills?  I've talked with
local rest. supplier and welding gas company.  I've found
possible used tanks, but the guy knows nothing about them and
I'm worried about certification, etc.

2) I've seen those nifty manifolds in the Foxx catalog and they
seem pretty cheap way to have multiple beers on tap if one thing
is true:  Do you need a regulator per/keg or would having a single
regulator between the manifold and the CO2 sufficient (i.e, do you
find you have to futzz with the pressures on a per keg basis?)

3) I`ve seen a little about cleaning and modifying the kegs for
Homebrew use:  Replace all O-rings and shorten the liquid pickup 
tube.  What other things need to be done other than a good
bleach-water cleaning?

4)  I think, but don't know, that the beer would stay fresh
after you've tapped it part way and then swapped it out for
another keg and came back to it a little later.  Is there
any difference between that and not having tapped it later?
I don't have to worry about oxidation...

5) any other hints/tips/admonishments from Soda Keggers?

Thanks for any info,
Ken Key   (key at cs.utk.edu)



Return to table of contents


Date:    Wed, 27 Nov 1991 11:07:21 EST
From: NOLAN at HEAVAX.GSFC.NASA.GOV (Tom Nolan)
Subject: Returnable Bottles

Just one more idea on the "perfect bottle" subject. I go down
to a friendly bar (The Town Hall in College Park MD) and buy
cases of empty Bud Longnecks. They sell 'em for the deposit,
which has varied from $1 to $2 the times I've done it. It's
perfect - you don't have to drink the stuff (it's "pre-consumed"),
and they come with a great carrying case. You can get a 
couple extra cases, sort through them to find the good ones, 
and return the ugly ones and get your money back. 

Tom

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 27 Nov 91 11:15:07 EST
From: Arthur Delano <ajd at itl.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: Party Balls Make Great Lamps


jimb at mips.com (Jim Bergman) writes:
] He said he would give me the partyball after it
was consumed for my homebrewing use. My question is, where do I find the
rubber seals for it or the batch-latch type cap to re-use this partyball?
I'm interested in fixing it to add a CO2 cartridge or CO2 tank...

This is kind of irrelevent to the subject, but I found in College that party 
balls make great lamps.  Cut the plastic base off for a sphere, or cut it
in half.  The two small rubber gaskets get a loop of wire (for hanging)
threaded through them, and a lamp wire is pushed through one of them.  The
light socket is attached to the wire and attached to the wire loop (so that
pulling on the chain won't pull the light off the wire).  A bit of chain
makes a dandy swag lamp in a seventies style.
   Since this has nothing to do with homebrewing, I'll provide an
ObBrew:  A metal colander with high sides makes a great tub for grain when
they are being used as an adjunct to an extract brew; the grain gets soaked
thoroughly and is removed easily; reduces the need to sparge later.  If you
live in bachelor's quarters, just be certain to remove the dried-on spaghetti
first.
       AjD      ajd at itl.itd.umich.edu

Return to table of contents


Date:     Wed, 27 Nov 91 08:43:49 PST
From: "Joe T. Coohill" <GD03JTC%UCSBVM.BITNET at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:  Homebrew Digest #769 (November 27, 1991)

*** Reply to note of 11/27/91 00:12
Please remove me from this list.


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 27 Nov 91 11:36:45 EST
From: rich at bedford.progress.COM (Rich Lenihan)
Subject: When yeast gets old and dies...

>From: MIKE LIGAS <LIGAS at SSCvax.CIS.McMaster.CA>

>                                         Yeast lysis is affected both by time
>and temperature. A rule of thumb is max. 14 days in primary if you're doing a
>single-stage fermentation. Racking too late risks oxidation. Once your beer is
>in the secondary you can relax on the order of months since the yeast carried
>over in suspension is healthy.

But what happens when it falls out of suspension?  I observe the following
when I brew:

   1.  Ferment in primary.  Lots of trub falls to bottom.
   2.  After a few days, rack to secondary.  About 1/3 - 1/2 as
       much trub falls to bottom.
   3.  Rack and bottle.  Small amount of sediment in each bottle.

I assume that what falls out of suspension in steps 2 and 3 as well as
step 1 is "dead yeast" (among other things).  I've learned from reading
(here and elsewhere) and from my own experience that it is more important
to separate the beer from the dreck in step 1 than in step 2 and 3.
When I went from single-stage to two-stage fermentation, I noticed fewer
off-flavors in my beers.  The last batch I bottled was in the secondary
(due to illness and busy-ness) for  at  two months.  It may be my best
batch yet.  So, to reduce the off-flavors, rack to secondary asap.  But,
what about oxidation?  I often get staling or oxidation symptons in
my beer after it has been in the bottle > 3 months.  I don't think this
is due to improper aeration of the wort or beer.  I've always accepted
this as a fact of life when dealing with living beer and so I don't worry
about it too much.  Besides, only a few stray bottles make it past the 
3-month point 8-)  My point is (finally!), can you really "relax on the
order of months since the yeast carried over in suspension is healthy"?
Even living healthy yeast dies eventually.  I suspect that the longer
you expose the beer to the sediment (whether in primary, secondary, or
bottle) the more you're pushing your luck.  This warning does not
include lagering (which I have no personal experience in), where long
fermentation periods are needed due to the very low temperatures involved.

Also, after several months, will there be enough viable yeast to induce
carbonation?  The last batch I bottled is currently under-carbonated
for my taste, but it's only been in bottle for 1 week now.  Time will
tell how this beer (and its yeast) will age.  In the meantime, am I
worrying too much or should we factor the life-cycle of our yeasts into
our brewing schedules?

 -Rich

Rich Lenihan                 UUCP: mit-eddie!progress!rich
Progress Software Corp.      Internet: rich at progress.com
14 Oak Park                   Real life:  20-I Brandywine Drive
Bedford, MA  01730                       Shrewsbury, MA 01545
USA                                      (508) 754-7502
"Beer is a mellow drink, but it keeps you on the run..." 
                                      - The Bartender's Bounce

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 27 Nov 91 09:24:08 -0800
From: robertn at folsm3.intel.com (RUBICON READY)
Subject: perfect bottles


>Maybe someone else out there in email-land knows of the perfect
>brand of bottle to use: one that is dark brown to protect from 
>light, sturdy to protect from breakage by the avid bottler, 
>covered with a label which falls off when looked at, and filled 
>with an inexpensive beer which is very good to drink ;)

Well, IMHO, the way to go is with Martinelli Sparkling Cider bottles,
or your typical American champagne bottles. 

All mine are green, but talk about sturdy! I've got the cases they come in,
and store that way, so green doesn't bother me. They are 750ml, so they pour
a nice sized glass of beer. They make bottling go REAL quik too. I usually
bottle half in the 750ml bottles, and the rest in 12oz Bud "bar" bottles.

The 750ml work out good to pour one BIG beer, or a couple regular size beers.
Great for parties or monday nite football...

Robert
robertn at folsm3.intel.com


Return to table of contents


Date: 27 Nov 1991 12:47:56 -0500
From: Chris McDermott <mcdermott at draper.com>
Subject: Bottle Labels, Bottles, & m

SubjectBottle Labels, Bottles, & my two cents

Tom Dimock <RGG at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu> says:
>If you want sturdy bottles with labels that come off easily, try to
 find re-usable bottles.

I must concur.  I'm sure most of you can recall drinking out of a "bar bottle"
(i.e. BudMilob longneck bottle availible in any bluecollar watering hole) and
having the label just fall of in your hand with only a little help from the
water condensing on the bottle's surface.

I beleive that you won't have much trouble buying these, from any bar at which
they are served, for the cost that the bar paid for deposit.
I think that is usually 10 cents a bottle.

Now, has anyone found a ready source of Sam Smith's pint size bottles,
besides paying $50+ a case for full ones?  I know these bottles are clear (ref.
the light dammage battle thread,) but they look great and are just the right
size for my likeing.

 Chris McDermott - "Your quote here"
 mcdermott at draper.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 27 Nov 91 13:00:11 +0000
From: Dave Coombs <coombs at bashful.cup.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Bottles and labels 

Tom Dimock likes Yuengling bottles.  I agree.  Nice sturdy cases, and
you can get pints if you can stomach either their "Premium" or
Bavarian beers.  Maybe you can find these in a local bar conveniently
pre-emptied.  Last time I saw the stuff around here I gasped - it was
cheap in upstate NY.

dave

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 27 Nov 91 11:41:47 CST
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)

Subject: Cost of Kegs (George Fix)

After reading C.R. Saikley's post concerning the actual cost of kegs, I called
Mike Adams (a brewer at Miller/FW) about this matter. C.R. is right. The $15 is
a "funny money" figure used in internal accounting. The true cost of the kegs
is ten times that amount (and even more for the rubber lined kegs). Mike tells
me that the loss of kegs is not big issue with them, however Jeff's original
point about ethics is apparantly valid. I stand corrected. 

Good News/Bad News: Mike also told me that they are phasing out half kegs for
economic reasons associated with filling costs. He feels the other large
brewers are going to do the same. This means they will start becoming scarce
at draft outlets, and start showing up elsewhere. The scrap price for these 
kegs should be $5-$10. People who live near a commercial brewery might want
to inquire.
 
              


Return to table of contents


Date:    Wed, 27 Nov 1991 13:42:00 -0500 (EST)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: grain->infection

Bob (?) asked why he was getting infected batches since going
all-grain:  Don't crush the grain in your brew room.  The grain holds
bacteria, which can hitch a ride on the dust from crushing, and end up
in your wort. I recommend changing all your plastic tubing too.

Russ

Return to table of contents



End of HOMEBREW Digest #770, 11/28/91
*************************************
-------

---