---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  STUFF (Jack Schmidling)
  All Grain Questions (C.R. Saikley)
  Brewing Techniques (martin wilde)
  Re: HBD 773 Silver Solder ("Benjamin F. Hantz")
  Re: How yeast affects flavor (korz)
  Re Club Coors Party Line (korz)
  decoction mashing (korz)
  Cranberry Lambic, Bottles (AEW)
  cask source (Dieter Muller)
  re: Cranberry Stuff (Dick Dunn)
  Re: Electric bins for mashing (Desmond Mottram)
  Re: Homebrew Digest #774 (December 04, 1991) (Mike Sharp)
  Wine/beer snobbery? (Robin Garr)
  Re: re: rE...Re-using yeast (Paul Yatrou)
  SS Bud Kegs (again) ("Andy Wilcox")
  boil overs (Brian Bliss)
  Boil-over, mesh, and antinomy (BAUGHMANKR)
  Re: Late Boil-up
  Yeast for barley wine... (Dave Beedle)
  Re: Guinness draft in a can ( Brian Kelley )
  shopping list... (JHOLMES)
  Re: Pasteurized Pub Draught Guinness (Richard Stueven)
  Coke-a-Brew I&II (JHOLMES)
  WYeast #1084 Irish Ale yeast (ingr!b11!mspe5!guy)
  Brew Kegging Supplies (Stuart Crawford)
  Sanitizing Kegs (man)
  Re: Stolen (?) Kegs (ingr!b11!mspe5!guy)
  Priming with DME syrup (S94TAYLO)
  Lacing (Conn Copas)


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[Please do not send me requests for back issues!]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Dec 91 10:38 CST
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: STUFF

 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 From: Tom Dimock <RGG at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>
 Subject:      Silver Solder
 
 >I am reading my way through the HBD archive, and came across a post in
 HBD 512 stating that silver solder is 97% lead and 3% silver.
 
 That's still lead solder.   It's an alloy used for soldering electronic 
 modules.  Someone else can tell you what silver solder is but it is more or 
 less the other way around.
 
 From: joshua.grosse at amail.amdahl.com
 Subject: Going all-grain.
 
 >For those of you without grain mills; what do YOU use? 
 
 I will use this as an excuse to post a "commercial" on the mill I made.  I 
 can make a few more, if anyone is interested, send me email.  But I warn 
 y'all, it aint cheap.  I will post some info on it separatley.
 
 >A 4 gallon mash didn't all fit in the lauter-tun at the same time!  I ended 
 up taking a lot of run-off out right away in order to stop leakage from 
 between the two buckets!  Miller recommended a 5-minute rest for settling; I 
 couldn't.
 
 >This made the sparging get a little more complicated. 
 
 This also made it not-sparging and explains all the problems you ended up 
 with.  The mash must be allowed to settle or you can not establish a filter 
 bed and will only get what you got.
 
 I do not understand Miller's idea of allowing the water to drop below the 
 grain level unless he is talking about spray sparging.  None of the grain 
 above the water level will get sparged.  Furthermore, unless you have a 
 transparent lauter vessel, how would you control it?
 
 Sounds like you had a perfectly miserable time but three cheers for the 
 effort.
 
 Fix those leaks.
 
 From: BAUGHMANKR at CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU
 Subject: 2-row vs. 6-row
 
 >Jack posted the outline for his EASYMASH method and then asked for
 ways to make it easier.  During his discussion of decoction mashing
 I realized that...
 
 >Why make life more difficult than it needs to be?  Brother Ockham
 would be displeased.
 
 Tis a bit inconsistant with "Easy", isn't it.   I guess I wanted to make good 
 beer first and then simplify it after I had a target to shoot at.
 
 >Why couldn't a single-stage mash of two-row malt yield wort which would be 
 characteristic of the lager style?
 
 >OK, you guys.  The ball's in your court...
 
 I will rise to the "challenge", if such a drastic simplification can be 
 considered a challenge.
 
 On my next batch, I will use a single temp infusion at 150 F in lieu of my 5 
 step method over a 3 hr time frame.  It will be interesting to compare the 
 results.
 
 What is the concensus on the time for the single temp infusion?
 ........
 
 This is from yesterday, I forgot to post it...
 
 I hope this can be taken as reasonable discussion because it is not meant to 
 be confrontational.  After all, I did ask for comments.
 
 From: mcnally at Pa.dec.com
 
 >No mention is made of the pH of the mash.
 
 Well, for openers, it is called "Easy Mash" and dealing with pH sort of 
 contradicts that direction.  I have also avoided it because I am currently 
 trying to make sense out of the readings I get which are inconsistant with 
 recommendations.  I do not know yet whether I am dealing with measurement 
 problems or momilies.
 
 >  Where Jack lives, the water chemistry must be appropriate to the type of 
 brewing Jack does.
 
 Blessed with L. Michigan water, you probably have a point.  Too bad I don't 
 have access to some nice polluted, mineralized, "Sky Blue Water" :)
 
 >The single-step infusion spurned by Jack is in fact used by most British 
 brewers and many commercial brewers of lagers in America and on the 
 continent.
 
 It is less a matter of spurning than of needing something to do while 
 monitoring the mash.
 
 >  If, however, Jack uses very hot sparge water, he probably is better served 
 by decoction.
 
 As a matter of fact I use boiling water and have some thoughts on that...  
 Not based on brew tech but just physics.
 
 When boiling water is dribbled on top of one inch of water, on top of six 
 inches of mash, it seems reasonable that, by the time the water gets to where 
 it is extracting sugar, it is probably close to the proper temperature.  It 
 hadn't occurred to me to measure the temp at the outflow of the masher but my 
 guess is that it is around 150 F.
 
 >Jack contradicts himself when he states first that the object of the sparge 
 is the removal of as much sugar as possible, and then a few sentences later 
 instructing the budding masher to stop sparging when the gravity falls to 
 about 10.  Perhaps mention mught be made of the reasons for stopping at that 
 point, lest an over-eager masher might continue to sparge and leach unwanted 
 tannins out of the grain.
 
 It was just a reference point for instructional purposes.  The reasons are 
 spelled out in the tech pubs.  The actual number, according to Noonan is 
 1.008 but I suffer from a propensity to round off.
 
 js
 

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 3 Dec 91 12:54:57 PST
From: grumpy!cr at uunet.UU.NET (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: All Grain Questions


>From: joshua.grosse at amail.amdahl.com

>I went all-grain for the first time yesterday.  

Congrats, brewing from grain is extremely rewarding, and I would
recommend that any experienced extract brewer give it a try. The
magical process of turning grains into beer is truly gratifying.

>I was unable to obtain or use a grain-mill.  

>For those of you without grain mills; what do YOU use?  What kind of extract
>rates do you get?  I got a lot less than I'd hoped.  It seemed I made a
>mixture of flour and uncracked whole grains.  For those with mills; how much
>do they cost?

It's unfortunate that you couldn't get access to a decent mill. A coffee
grinder or Cuisinart just isn't going to give you a good crush. This can
cause the problems you experienced with poor extract and cloudy runoff.
It can also cause a stuck mash, which fortunately you avoided.

The Corona grain mill is the old standby. It's hand cranked, but can be 
connected to a power drill to make life easier. The crush is far from
perfect, but it can be made to work OK. A new one will set you back
about $40. Many homebrew shops carry them. Try Williams Brewing in San
Leandro CA.

Another option is to have your supplier crack your grain. A decent
homebrew shop will have a two roller mill, which should give you a
much better crush than a Corona can. It usually costs no more than
4-5 cents/pound extra to get your grain cracked, and some suppliers
will do it free. Cracked grain doesn't keep well, so you'll want to 
brew ASAP after milling. If you live in an area where you must mail 
order your grain, having it pre cracked is not a good idea.

>I couldn't obtain PH papers.  Where do you find them?  I know the brand name
>that Miller recommends, but my local homebrew supply and one pharmacy I
>checked with didn't carry 'em.

I've never had much luck with pH papers either. Especially with darker
brews, the color of the wort can obscure the color of the paper, making
it difficult to read. A cheap digital pH meter can be had for $40 from
Edmund Scientific. This same meter can cost $80-90 in homebrew supply
shops. It's got a single point calibration, so you need a standard buffer
solution to calibrate it. It's accurate to 0.2 pH (the catalog doesn't
specify whether this is +/- 0.1, or +/- 0.2), which is generally close 
enough for brewing. More accurate meters cost hundreds of $$$.

>I used the old Iodine test that Miller doesn't like.  As Papazian predicts,
>the mash was done in less than 40 minutes.  Miller likes to mash for an hour
>and a half without testing.  I preferred to test.

Dr. Michael Lewis at UC Davis claims that with Klages malt and a hot mash
(160F) the conversion will be complete in under 5 minutes. I've mashed
for as little as 20 minutes and gotten good results. The Marin Brewing
Co. routinely mashes for 35 minutes (because it takes that long to heat
the sparge water) and FWIW they took 4 medals at this years Great American
Beer Fest. Given that, Miller's recommendation of 90 minutes seems excessive.

>The electric boiler never got a really good high ruckus boil.  

The advantages of a good rolling boil are several. This topic is thoroughly
covered in many places, so I won't go into that here. Suffice to say
that a strong boil is highly desirable.

It seems that nearly everyone's first all grain brew is time consuming,
messy, and fraught with mistakes - I know mine was. Fear not, for with a 
little experience, things will flow much more smoothly and your results 
will likely improve.

Cheers,
CR

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 3 Dec 91 21:04:22 GMT
From: martin at daw_302.hf.intel.com (martin wilde)
Subject: Brewing Techniques


A good book to pick up is the one titled "Brewing Better Lager Beer".
I don't remember the author right now, but it is the green book
of beer brewing.  Although it is slighted towards lager brewing,
there are many, many, many tips which can be used in ale brewing.

Some of these are (and some from other sources):

 - A step mash: 30 minutes at 116 degrees and then 60 minutes at
  150-158 (depending on the dextrin content you desire)  will 
  reduce chill haze which is prevalent in single step infusion mashes.
  I have also read in the all grain addition of Zymurgy this aids in
  taste and body (cuts done on harsh offtones).  Even 2 Row lager grain 
  benefits from this.  Yes I know the British for decades have done 
  infusion mashes on 2 Row Klages and Pale Ale malts, but it doesn't 
  mean its the best method...  Maybe the simplest...

 - A 90 minute mash is required for full color development.

 - The sparge must be maintained at a constant temperature.

 - Recycle the extract from the sparge a couple of times (2-3 quarts).
  This helps in extracting the extract.  The slower the sparge, the
  better the extract collection.  When the SP of the extract is
  below 1010, quit collecting.  Use brewing water if more water
  is necessary in the brewpot.

 - After collecting the extract, get it boiling as soon as possible
  when using the step mash or decotation mash methods.

 - A Rolling boil throughout.  Have the lid off for at least 30 minutes.
  This removes some of the bad hop flavors, acids and other foul odors
  which results from boiling the hopped wort.

 - DO NOT aerate the wort while it is cooling, this leads to oxidation.

 - Have the yeast in the carboy prior to putting the chilled wort in.
  This way the yeast is off and running.  This is a big plus
  if your are using a starter culture and pitching at full krausen.

 - Use starter cultures.  It is a beautiful sight to behold when your
  wort starts blowing off after 8-12 hours and bubbles form after 4 hours.

 - Aerate the heck out of the wort and yeast in the carboy.  I found it
  beneficial to take the carboy for a ride after filling.  Something
  about those bumpy rodes that aerates it really good!!!

 - When brewing with extracts, instead of adding water to the
  carboy, add the water to the brewpot (assuming you have a large
  enough pot).  This way the water will be boiled and sanitized during
  the boil.  One less thing to go wrong.

I hope some of these help...

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1991 17:47 EDT
From: "Benjamin F. Hantz" <HANTZ%MOE.ERE-NET.COM at pucc.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject: Re: HBD 773 Silver Solder


In HBD 773 Tom Dimock writes:

>I am reading my way through the HBD archive, and came across a post in
>HBD 512 stating that silver solder is 97% lead and 3% silver.  Do any
>of our metalurgists (or materials scientists) out there know what the
>story is on this?  If silver solder can result in free lead, I'd like
>to know so that I can deal with that in my construction article.

A fellow brewer, Lou Curcio, checked with one of our metallurgists and
submits:

The term silver solder is a misnomer, it should be called silver brazing.
(The difference between soldering and brazing has to do with the liquidus
temperature).  The filler metals in silver brazing contain about 50% silver,
30% copper, and the balance is zinc. (Some fillers contain cadmium, but they
are not recommended for food processing.) There is no lead in silver brazing.
The AWS (American Welding Society) classification of these fillers are BAg-4
through BAg-8.

Regards,
Ben Hantz
Equipment Engineering Division
Exxon Research and Engineering Company
Florham Park, NJ 07932






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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 91 16:54 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Re: How yeast affects flavor

Desmond writes:
>Re Yeast: I've been impressed by the range of yeasts mentioned on HBD. In 
>the UK many yeasts are available for wine-making but I've found only three 
>for beer-making: real-ale, cheap and lager. How much difference does the 
>yeast strain make to the flavour of the beer? I'd suspect a lot, but havn't 
>got the variety to experiment with.

In my opinion, yeast makes a BIG difference.  Bigger than which brand of
extract you use!  Different yeasts produce differing amounts of esters and
other by-products, such as diacetyl, phenols, etc.  My biggest increases
in beer quality were: 1) switching to Wyeast (from Muntona (M&F), Doric, and
Edme) and using a wort chiller (better cold break).  In addition to flavors,
with Wyeast, you have better control over attenuation (single strain yeasts
have more reproducable attenuation characteristics) so you can make your
Scotch Ale taste like McEwans, for example.  I suggest you call Wyeast Labs
at (503)352-7844 and ask them if they have a distributor in the UK.  If
not, maybe you could be it!

Good luck.
Al.

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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 91 17:32 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Re Club Coors Party Line

I also called.  I answered "Other" to the brand of beer I drink and
proceeded to use the recording like this:

"I don't wish to join your club.  I would like to use this opportunity
to let you know what kind of beer I drink.  I don't like flavorless,
industrial, lagers like Coors.   I like beers with flavor and body
like Sierra Nevada Pale Ale or imports like Samuel Smith's Old Brewery
Pale Ale..."

Suddenly, I was cut off.  Maybe they use voice recognition and cut you
off after the second time you say "Pale Ale" figuring no person could
have the phonyms of "pale ale" in their name and address TWICE. ;^).
Al.

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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 91 17:58 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: decoction mashing

I believe that I read somewhere (great reference, eh?) that decoction
mashing was developed back when there were no thermometers (or at
least they were scarce) so brewers relied on boiling a known percentage
of their mash to control the temperature of the mash.  However, I
tend to believe (more weasel words) that the mash process used does
affect the final flavor.  Why else would Pilsner Urquel use a triple
decoction mash in this day and age?  All this is strictly my gut
feelings based on the knowledge of the processes involved -- I've 
never made the same recipe using the three methods and then compared
them side-by-side.
Al.

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Date: 03 Dec 91 14:34:21 EST
From: AEW at b30.prime.com
Subject: Cranberry Lambic, Bottles


Fellow Homebrewers,

    In the past few HBD's there have been several posts about Sam
Adams Cranberry Lambic. Here's my 2 cents worth:

    From what I have heard (From the local package store and a friend
who recently toured the Sam Adams brewery) there were three batches
of Cranberry Lambic Brewed. One batch made its way into the 12-pack
case, one into Kegs and the third into all lambic six-packs. All
three batches are significantly different in taste! (I don't know if
they are different in recipe.) The kegged version is much lighter
tasting that the six-pack version. I have not yet bought a 12-pack,
but have heard from a friend that has had all three that it is
somewhere in between the two others.  The six-packs were available in
toe boston area about three weeks ago and sold like hot cakes! I'm
glad a friend picked up a couple :-)  I enjowed the brew in that
packaging/batch.

     On another note I prefer Whitbread Ale bottles for their good
balence of taste, bottle color and label removability. I consider
the taste worth the price too!

===============================================================================
Allan Wright Jr.            | Pole-Vaulters Get a Natural High!
Seabrook, NH                +--------------------------------------------------
Internet: AEW at B30.PRIME.COM | These are my words only, drifting through time...
===============================================================================


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Date:    Tue, 03 Dec 91 21:49:16 EST
From: IO10676 at maine.maine.edu

I guess everybody has The Batch From Hell sooner or later, and it looks
like this Solstice Stout is fixing to be mine.  Some of you may recall
that this is the one that boiled over after 45 minutes of good behavior.
Well, now the fermentation has refused to start, and I'm at a loss.  I'm
almost ready to start _worrying_ here, folks.

After I got it in the fermenter last Monday evening, I added a starter
made from 2 packets of Red Star ale yeast.  It was a good starter, too;
the yeast were clearly off and running.  This sort of thing usually gets
me a visible ferment by the next morning, but not this time.  So, just
to help it along, I dumped in another packet of Red Star before I had
to leave.

That afternoon I was leaving straight from work to the airport to visit
family for Thanksgiving, so I hoped it was just being a little slow.  I
got back home last night and found that no ferment was going on, and no
evidence was extant that one had.  I took a gravity reading and found it
essentially unchanged from its initial reading of 1.056.  I tasted the
sample, also, and it definitely was unfermented.  I made up one more Red
Star starter then last night, dumped it in, and moved the fermenter out
of its 55-60 degree closet and into my living room, hoping a little heat
would kick-start it.

It's still doing nothing, and despite a couple bottles of Big Dog's best
Hexham Brown Ale, I'm starting to worry.  Have any of you ever had a
ferment that simply _would_not_start_?  This is a very new thing for me,
and in my experience is completely out of character for Red Star ale,
usually quite a vigorous strain.  I know the yeast was good, as it did
fine in the starter.  The fermenter was well rinsed and did not smell of
chlorine.  No great temperature shocks have occurred.  I just don't
know.

As far as I can tell from the smell, it's not infected _yet_.  Is there
anything I can do, besides wait and hope?  Please e-mail me directly
with any suggestions!

Thanks . . .

Sterling Udell
Big Dog Brewing Cooperative - Eastern Division
"NEVER turn your back on a boiling wort."
                                - Big Dog Solstice Stout

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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 91 00:47:07 MST
From: dworkin at habitrail.Solbourne.COM (Dieter Muller)
Subject: cask source

Here's the information on wooden casks from the Cumberland General
Store:

Paraffin-lined Oak:

	Gallons		Diameter x Height	Price
	5		10.5'' x 17.25''	$44.20
	10		12.5'' x 22''		$56.90
	15		14'' x 17''		$71.00
	30		18'' x 29.25''		$103.50

Charred Oak:

	1		7.5'' x 8''		$59.18
	2		8'' x 10.5''		$63.90
	5		10.5'' x 17.25''	$91.73

Paraffin-lined Basswood:

	5		10.5'' x 16.5''		$35.90
	15		14'' x 23.25''		$51.80
	30		18.5'' x 29.25''	$84.80

Shipping to Colorado would be somewhere between $5 and $12, depending
on UPS or USPS and the weight of the barrel.  Obviously, your mileage
will vary.  I find it kind of surprising that you can mail a 30 gallon
cask....

They also have oak water kegs (paraffin-lined, hinged top), rain
barrels (40 gallon, oak or basswood, paraffin-lined), and nail kegs
(pine, not lined, not rated for liquid).

Obviously, it was too late at night when I read this originally, since
I don't even have the option of unlined.  I'm considering getting one
of the paraffin-lined, and one of the charred, just to see what the
effects of the linings are.

They have lots of interesting other wooden things like bungs, faucets,
etc.  Also, there's a beer & wine-making section.  It's kinda like a
Whole Earth catalog, but oriented mainly on pioneer-like things.

Their address:

	Cumberland General Store, Inc.
	Route 3, Box 81
	Crossville TN  38555

The catalog has a $3.00 price tag on it, I don't know how serious they
are about enforcing the price.

	Dworkin

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Date: 4 Dec 91 01:05:17 MST (Wed)
From: rcd at raven.eklektix.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: re: Cranberry Stuff

Mike Sharp <msharp at cs.ulowell.edu> writes, among other things about Samuel
Adams Cranberry Lambic:

> 	o wheat malt is not used in a lambic (but I'll concede this point
> 	  since I've been known to use wheat malt too)

Not true...wheat is likely to be up to perhaps 1/3 of a lambic.

> 	o maple syrup is definately not used in a traditional lambic.

True, but there may be a non-malt sugar added to the lambics with fruit...
I seem to think it would be the equivalent of invert sugar but I'm about
900 miles from my reference books.  Anyway, they do add some "sugar for
sugar's sake".  Maple is hardly traditional, but it is mostly sugar which
won't contribute anything to the body.

Mike goes on with one of the best examples of "damning with faint praise"
I've ever seen (!)...and on the subject of Samuel Adams (the most over-
marketed small brewery in the US) I'll not even attempt to gainsay him.

> ...The beer tastes like a _very_ light beer (or my tap water)
> with a slight hint of hops & cranberry/maple.  I was rather
> supprised with the lack of body/character and of the total
> lack of any lactic sourness...

I'd be glad to hear other comments on fruited beers.  My sense agrees with
Mike (and with the way the fruited lambics are made) - that these should be
rather more substantial than average.
  ---
Dick Dunn    rcd at raven.eklektix.com   -or-   raven!rcd    Boulder, Colorado
	...Simpler is better.

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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 91 10:10:13 GMT
From: des at swindon.swindon.ingr.com (Desmond Mottram)
Subject: Re: Electric bins for mashing

> From: Dean Cookson <cookson at mbunix.mitre.org>
> Subject: Electric mashing bins
> 
> Ok, I've been convinced.  It's time I try making an all grain beer.
> 
> But, now I have to decide what to mash in.  I've been thinking of
> buying a 40qt round plastic cooler, and doing a simple infusion
> mash (I'm mainly a British ale brewer/drinker), but all this talk about
> electric mashing bins has be curious.  How much do these things
> run in general, how easy are they to use, and can you boil as well
> as mash in all of them??  Also, are there any 110 VAC units worth it?
> I have a gas stove and a gas dryer, so there are no 220 VAC outlets
> in the house. :-(

I've been using an electric bin for mash and boil for nearly a year now. It
is easy to use and I'm pretty pleased with it. But it does have disadvantages 
that make me feel I shall move on sometime. I did mention some a couple of 
digests ago, but to re-cap briefly, worst disadvantage first:

 - Mine is slow to boil (3 hours for 5 galls) and goes off the boil every 20
   secs when the simmerstat cuts out.
 - You can't use it to heat sparge water whilst it's tied up mashing.
 - You can't begin the boil as you sparge, as you have to clean the bin out
   first.
 - It heats from the bottom, so you have to stir it up every 30 mins or so 
   to avoid uneven mashing.

Neverthless I like it and don't think I've wasted my money.

> 
> Thanks,
> Dean
> 

Desmond Mottram.

> 
> Kent    "maybe someday I'll get this brewing business figured out and quit 
>         experimenting with EVERY flipping batch" Dinkel

Not a chance! You'll never rest. Once satisfied with one brew, you'll think
"now how about trying..." It's more than a life's work getting them all 
right. That's half the fun! The other half is consuming the product of 
course :-))))) The hard bit is having the patience to change only one 
variable at a time.

> 
> dinkel at hpmtaa.lvld.hp.com
> 

DJM
des at swindon.swindon.ingr.COM

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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 91 8:08:51 EST
From: Mike Sharp <msharp at cs.ulowell.edu>
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #774 (December 04, 1991)

John DeCarlo writes: 
> This reminds me that there was an interesting article about a
> former Homebrewer of the Year in _zymurgy_ a few years back.  It
> discussed how he raises his own barley, malts it himself, ...,
> and uses wooden kegs.  (Did he win with a Belgian Brown?)

This was Mike Matucheski.  He gave a talk at the last AHA conf.
The article is in the summer '89 issue.  He did win the Belgian
category a few years ago with a beer he calls 'Goudenband'.
His brew seems to be exclusivly Belgian in character and he uses
bottle cultured yeast (apparently obtained on one of his _many_
visits).  He brought a few samples of his stuff to the unofficial
lambic tasting (at the last conf.).  It wasn't bad, but I would
definately say it was horsey.  This is a common character in Belgian
lambics.  Its the aroma you'd be into if you were a conoseur of horse
sweat.  Finally, Mike is making the conference beer for this year.  Its
a Framboise (did I let the cat out of the bag?).  If nothing else, it'll
be an eye openner for many people.

Ken Weiss writes:

> I was in LA over Thanksgiving. My mother-in-law lives about two blocks from
> Wolfgang Puck's brewery, Eureka. ....
> Not only was the bar closed as well, but the
> bartender behaved as if we were insane for thinking we could get a beer at
> such an outrageous hour. I mean, really, did we think we were in a BREWERY
> or something??? If someone can send me a Pediococcus culture, maybe I'll
> drop in on my next trip to LA and spray it around... ;-P

Imagine that, going to a bar in the middle of the afternoon & expecting
to get a beer!!
How many gallons of slurry would you like?  

	--Mike

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Date: 04 Dec 91 08:45:15 EST
From: Robin Garr <76702.764 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Wine/beer snobbery?

In Digest No. 774, Ken Weiss writes:
 
> What's next? Beer tastings complete with precious little commentaries? "A
> woodsy little beerwith an insoucient nose, and a rascally finish.
> Unpresumptuous, butsturdy." ARRRGHHH! If I wanted to be associated with
> pretentious snobby weenies that drink for flavor and not effect, I'd drink
> wine. Whew, I feel better now.
 
Not to start another flame (we've had enough, on other subjects), but I'd
respectfully point out that to stereotype wine-lovers as "pretentious
snobby weenies" is no more accurate than to stereotype beer-lovers as
"fat, burping slobs."
 
I know Ken's tongue is visibly in his cheek here, but it bears occasional
repeating that a lot of folks enjoy wine, beer and other fermented fluids
(thanks, Martin!) as adjacent stopping points along a continuous spectrum.
As a wine lover AND home brewer, I've got no problem with that.
 
But in these troubled times, when there are dark forces out there who would
be happy to see a modern version of the failed experiment Prohibition return,
I'd respectfully suggest that we ought to be seeking common cause among those
who favor beer, wine or spirits, or any combination.
 
Robin Garr
Associate Sysop
CompuServe Wine and Beer Forum
76702.764 at compuserve.com
 



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Date:    Wed, 4 Dec 1991 11:20:30 -0500 (EST)
From: YATROU at INRS-TELECOM.UQUEBEC.CA (Paul Yatrou)
Subject: Re: re: rE...Re-using yeast

Bryan Gros writes:
- -----------------
:I was amazed to see bubbles in 10 minutes and a full fermentation
:in 30 minutes.  I had never seen it take off so fast.  Unfortunately,
:I don't drink my beer fast enough to do this often, but I'd like
:to save some of this yeast.

Quite a few of us would like to re-use yeast that we've had good results
with (to cut down the cost, among other reasons). But not all of us
have the chance or time (or energy?) to brew succesive batches so that
we can repitch off the sediment in the secondary of the previous batch.
There's always the technique for propagating some of the trub in sterile
wort and using it within a week or so, but what if you need more time?

Now here's my question/suggestion:
- ---------------------------------
What about culturing yeast from your own bottles?
This is regularly done with Chimays and other imported beers, granted
you don't have any other source for getting these yeasts.
Could the same method be used here? Or is there a problem with culturing
from such a small sample such a long time after it's been active
(infections, mutations, or just plain old weakened yeasties).
Maybe you can culture from several bottles-worth to
increase the size. Presumably, recapping the empty bottles and storing
them in the fridge a day or two until you have enough will not hurt
the yeast. 

This would allow you weeks/months before starting a new batch.
Also you have the benefit of "tasting" the results of the yeast
before you use it.

Has anyone tried this?

PY

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Date: Wed, 04 Dec 91 11:40:23 EST
From: "Andy Wilcox" <andy at eng.ufl.edu>
Subject: SS Bud Kegs (again)


After several months of not brewing, I'm ready to jump
back in again.  During the break, I've happened across
several of the 15gal SS Kegs.  I'd like to set up the
"ultimate" all grain brewing system with these.  Just
as a preliminary guess, I'm thinking of using one for
a boiling vat (natural gas powered), one for a lauter
tun, and another for a fermenter.

I'd be very interested in hearing about what kinds of
gas fired multiple keg systems that ya'll are using.

Andy

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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 91 10:49:01 CST
From: bliss at csrd.uiuc.edu (Brian Bliss)
Subject: boil overs


All of my extract beers seem to foam over to a great extent, but
my all grain batches come to a  nice rolling boil without ever
foaming up at all.  Until last weekend, that it.  I added .5 lb
roasted barley to 1.5 gal water, brought to 152F, and added 2
tsp of amylase enzyme to do a partial mash.  I let it sit for
20 min, turned on the heat, brought to a boil, and added 2
cans JB dark extract.  It came to a boil without ever foaming
over.

I never tried using amylase enzye before.  I hypothesize that
it is the unconverted starches in the wort that cause the boil
over, and that when I do the full mash of an all-grain beer,
or at least a very complete partial mash, these are eliminated.
Handy stuff, that amylase.

bb


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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1991 12:05 EDT
From: BAUGHMANKR at CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU
Subject: Boil-over, mesh, and antinomy

Subject: Re: Late Boil-up

>From: IO10676 at maine.maine.edu

>When the wort forms a head and starts making a run for the edge
>of the pot, you pour a splash of cold water in it.  Puts it
>right in its place, which is back in the pot.

And Martin sez:

>I figured this was worth a question to the digest.  I have
>resorted on occasion to the "cold water" method, but dislike it
>since you have to watch out for boil-over again.  So I normally
>just use the "blow on" method to reduce the foam.  This is tough
>on those who hyperventilate easily, but is great in that you
>don't have to worry about another boil-over happening that batch.

Boil over is caused by the formation of a viscous film of protein on
the surface of the soon-to-boil wort.  When the steam escapes upward 
at the onset of the boil, it blows a big wort-bubble all over 
creation.  To prevent boil-over, I skim the creamy head of protein 
that forms in the pre-boil stage several times.  Haven't had boil-over 
in years.

Boil-over usually doesn't occur after that initial 'steam-break'.  
I've always assumed that this is because the rolling action of the 
boil prevents another film of protein from forming.  The cold water 
method may fail sometimes because the protein probably skims over 
again.  The cold water would have returned the wort to a pre-boil 
temperature, preventing the rolling action of the wort which will 
thereafter prevent the wort-bubble action. 

At least, that would be my guess.

And, no, this doesn't affect the head retention of my beers.  There's 
plenty of protein left in the wort for that.

As for mesh:

A non-metal source of mesh is 'no-see um' mosquito netting from an 
outdoors hiking/camping shop.  It easily withstands boiling 
temperatures. 

And just when you thought the solder thread had run its course:

Is there a problem with antinomy in solder?  Some lead-free solders 
contain 5%.  Seems like someone had a disparaging attitude toward 
antinomy a couple issues back.

Sure is nice to have the Digest back to normal.

Kinney Baughman                   |   Beer is my business and
baughmankr at conrad.appstate.edu    |   I'm late for work.


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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 91 11:04:19 CST
From: dbeedle at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Dave Beedle)
Subject: Yeast for barley wine...

     I'm planning on brewing up another batch of barley wine soon (my second)
and am curious as to what yeast you folks might recommend.  I read in Zymurgy
that most comercial examples of BW do not mak use of champagne yeast so...what
ale yeasts are up to the task?  I've also found out (after the first batch)
about rousing the yeast during the ferment.  Any comments?

TTFN

- --
  Dave Beedle                                     Office of Academic Computing
                                                     Illinois State University
  Internet:  dbeedle at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu                     136A Julian Hall
    Bitnet:  dbeedle at ilstu.bitnet                           Normal, Il   61761

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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 91 12:24:54 EST
From: bkelley at pms001.pms.ford.com ( Brian Kelley )
Subject: Re: Guinness draft in a can



Bob Jones wrote in HBD 774:

> The real question I have is how do they release the nitrogen when you open
> the can?

Bob, I also wondered about this.  I believe I have it figured out.

(This is all IMHO based on examining the can).
At the factory, I believe they put a small quantity of liquid nitrogen
into the plastic reservoir.   The edges of the reservoir are sealed, but the
small hole in the center is not.  Before this liquid can boil off, they fill
the can with beer, add C02 and seal it.  When the beer is poured in the can,
it cannot enter the plastic dome because the nitrogen is bubbling out. When
the can is pressurized, the beer presses down on the dome causing it to seal
and trap the nitrogen.  When the beer is opened, the center of the dome pops
up, allowing the now gaseous nitrogen to jet into the beer.  It is really
a neat idea.

 <Beer exerting pressure>
   __  __
__|  ||  |__   (side view of circular dome)

          ^^  The edges are always sealed
     ^^ pressure causes this junction to seal against the base.

- ---
bkelley at pms001.pms.ford.com


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Date:    Wed, 04 Dec 91 13:53 EST
From: JHOLMES at CLEMSON.CLEMSON.EDU
Subject: shopping list...

I have read Papizan, Miller and Zymurgy religiously.  I know what to
buy.  However ther are no Homebrew shops near where I live!  So will
someone be so kind and allow me to get the names and addresses of
their favorite homebrew shops and catalog places?
                                                Relax,
                                            james holmes
- -------------------------------------------------------------------
jholmes at clemson.clemson.edu----------------------------------------
- -------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 91 10:58:08 PST
From: Richard.Stueven at Corp.Sun.COM (Richard Stueven)
Subject: Re: Pasteurized Pub Draught Guinness

In HBD# 774, bkelley at pms001.pms.ford.com ( Brian Kelley ) exclaims:

>One thing that did surprise me was the large "Pasteurized" stamp on the can.
>I never realized Guiness was pasteurized.

Truth, Fiction, or Urban Legend:

	All beers imported into the US are required to be pasteurized
	and/or to have chemicals such as _formaldehyde_ added to them.

I've heard this from a number of people over the years, none of whom
really know any more about it than I do.  Does any net.brewer know for
sure?  Pointers to relevant legislation will also be appreciated...

thx
gak

P.S.  Personally, I believe the "pasteurized" part, but not the
      "formaldehyde" part.

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Date:    Wed, 04 Dec 91 13:59 EST
From: JHOLMES at CLEMSON.CLEMSON.EDU
Subject: Coke-a-Brew I&II

Well a friend of mine who likes to do stuf to his beer that no
Well a friend of mine who likes to do stuffto his beer that no other man would d
o, decided to make a new addition to his beer.
He adde Coke A Cola to his brew instead of adding corn sugar.
The result was magnificent.  At first it had a really bitter taste
but as the bottle was emptied it turned out to be something to drink again and a
gain.
Now he wants to add the soft drink ginger ale to the brew he is
working on and hopefully it will turn out as just delicious.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
Jholmes at clemson.clemson.edu
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 91 13:01:39 CST
From: ingr!ingr!b11!mspe5!guy at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: WYeast #1084 Irish Ale yeast

    In response to the question on (lack of) carbonation using Wyeast Irish
Ale yeast, I have never had this problem.  I used it in an Irish sweet stout
and it produced quite a nice, creamy head.  I currently have another stout in
the secondary and the yeast in it is now thrice pitched Irish Ale yeast.  I
used it first in my Christmas beer, saved the dregs from the secondary, pitched
it into my "Yellowdog Mild", saved the dregs again, and then pitched into the
current stout.  I have noticed that the primary fermentation has gotten less
vigorous each time.  The first time (Christmas beer), I had some blowoff even
though I was fermenting 5 gallons in a 7 gallon carboy.  The second use yielded
about a 4" - 5" kraeusen, and this batch only rose up about 1".  It still
ferments well (starting gravity on my current batch was 1.051 and was down to
1.016 after 4 days when I racked it) and I still have had no carbonation
problems.  The Christmas beer has a thick, brown head that lasts until the glass
is empty.  This yeast is my personal favorite.  Just another data point for
your survey.

- ---
Guy D. McConnell                   
"All I need is a pint a day..."



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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 91 11:40:44 PST
From: stuart at ads.com (Stuart Crawford)
Subject: Brew Kegging Supplies

I want to start kegging my beer, so am looking for an inexpensive  
approach. Someone suggested acquiring the "Foxx Equipment catalog".   
Anyone have an address, or other source for supplies in the SF Bay  
area?  Thanks,

Stuart

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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 91 16:27 EST
From: man at kato.att.com
Subject: Sanitizing Kegs

After reading George Fix's posts about SS fermenters, I thought of a
few questions. 

George said that sometimes boiling water wasn't good, because high iron content
would be a problem. Someone else contradicted this, I believe, but that
isn't important.  My question is this:

Can I take a 15 gal Bud keg and put it on my King Kooker and put, say,
2 gallons of distilled water in it. Then boil it all out and let the steam
sanitize the fermenter ? Remember, Bud kegs are NOT rubber or plastic lined
on the outside, they are all metal.  My water supply could probably be used,
but distilled could be used for problem water supplies.

Any comments ? For me, with my flame thrower burner, this makes a very easy
way to sterilize without any chemicals. 

BTW, my local beer distributor sold me three 15gal Bud kegs for $10 each. I plan
to use 2 as fermenters and 1 as a combo masher/boiler (and maybe a lauter tun)
to make 12 gallon batches.

Mark Nevar


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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 91 16:03:19 CST
From: ingr!ingr!b11!mspe5!guy at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Re: Stolen (?) Kegs

In Digest #744, Donald P Perley writes:

> Someone asked about the cost to a brewery if you sacrifice the deposit
> and keep a keg.
>
> I got this from the latest issue of "The Irish Emigrant"

>>       > > > > > > > > >   BITS AND PIECES   < < < < < < < < <
>>
>>     - 57,000 empty beer kegs belonging to Guinness went missing
>>       during the first nine months of the year.  The company suspects
>>       organised criminal gangs but does not say what they do with
>>       them.  The kegs cost #50 each to replace.
>
> I guess WE know what everyone is doing with them; heh heh heh...
> I don't know what the currency exchange rate is.

    Using Liam's posting of the currency exchange rates later in the Business
section of "The Irish Emigrant" and assuming that they are talking about Irish
pounds instead of Sterling, each keg costs $85.85 to replace.  That's almost
5 million dollars worth of kegs!!  Now, *I'd* like to get my hands on a FULL
keg of Guinness!

- ---
Guy D. McConnell                   
"All I need is a pint a day..."




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Date:     Wed, 4 Dec 91 19:08 EST
From: <S94TAYLO%USUHSB.bitnet at VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:  Priming with DME syrup

Kent Dinkel got flat beer because he didn't use enough DME.  One cup of DME
has only 0.8 cup of malt extract solids, only 3/4 of which is actually
fermentable.  So, about 3/5 of a cup (less than 2/3 cup, by my primitive math)
is fermentable.  To get the same carbonation you would get from 3/4 cup
corn sugar, you would need to use 1-1/4 cup of any syrup.
Al Taylor
Uniformed Services University
School of Medicine
Bethesda, Maryland

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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 91 16:05:10 GMT
From: Conn Copas <C.V.Copas at loughborough.ac.uk>
Subject: Lacing

I've always understood lacing to be a function of hop bitterness. I once made
a low gravity no adjuncts extract brew which finished around SG 4, and was
also way overhopped with Hallertau. It had almost no head retention but
considerable lacing.



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End of HOMEBREW Digest #775, 12/05/91
*************************************
-------

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