---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  used soda kegs (Marty Albini)
  getting unusual salts (mcnally)
  Re: Late Boil-up (John DeCarlo)
  Infections (John DeCarlo)
  Brewing Good Beer (John DeCarlo)
  the friendly skies and homebrew (dave ballard)
  Electric mashing bins (Dean Cookson)
  Ternary and Quaternary Brazing Alloys for Homebrewing (wbt)
  Re: Casks (John DeCarlo)
  re: Yeast Culturing (joshua.grosse)
  Re: (Stolen?) kegs for kettles (Donald P Perley)
  Yeast flavour impact, etc. (Norm Pyle)
  Re: Silver Solder  (steve)
  Re: Whitbread ale yeast  (steve)
  Irish Ale Yeast/carbonation summary (krweiss)
  Quick and clean culturing from a SN bottle (Carl West)
  Priming with DME (Kent Dinkel)
  Pasteurized Pub Draught Guinness ( Brian Kelley )
  Silver Solder summary (Tom Dimock)
  Mashing & chilling ("Dr. John")
  Re: 2-row vs. 6-row  (steve)
  Anchor Christmas (C.R. Saikley)
  Silver Solder (revisited) (lutzen)
  Guinness draft in a can (Bob Jones)
  melon wheat beer (Rob Sama)
  A message from my bottles ("CCVAX::HAPANOWICZ")
  Silver Solder Compositions (Bruce Mueller)
  Re: Yeasts (addition) (korz)


Send submissions to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues!]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Dec 91 19:14:30 PST
From: Marty Albini <martya at sdd.hp.com>
Subject: used soda kegs

> From: key at cs.utk.edu
> 
> My questions to the group are:
> 1) where do you get your tanks and get re-fills?  I've talked with
> local rest. supplier and welding gas company.  I've found
> possible used tanks, but the guy knows nothing about them and
> I'm worried about certification, etc.

	I have no idea where cs.utk.edu is, but if you're near
a large metropolitan area there is probably a place that sells
bottled gasses. You might check under "gas" in the yellow
pages.

	In San Diego, we have several, one specializing in
beverage distribution hardware and supplies. My used 5lb tank
was $20, filled. Lasted two years. Don't worry about 
certification per se. If the shop will fill it, that's probably 
good enough.
 
> 2) I've seen those nifty manifolds in the Foxx catalog and they
> seem pretty cheap way to have multiple beers on tap if one thing
> is true:  Do you need a regulator per/keg or would having a single
> regulator between the manifold and the CO2 sufficient (i.e, do you
> find you have to futzz with the pressures on a per keg basis?)

	Depends on what you're trying to do. Carbonating beer
takes ~30psi, dispensing 5psi (for a typical ale) to maybe
10psi (for a lager, dispensed cold). If you only do one thing
at a time, save your money and just move the CO2 line around
as necessary. Unless the spigot is in constant use, you
shouldn't have to reconnect to a keg much once it's up to
pressure until you've dispensed enough to (say) double the
gas volume in the keg, cutting the pressure roughly in half. I
cheat up a little on pressure, and extend the range further.

> 3) I`ve seen a little about cleaning and modifying the kegs for
> Homebrew use:  Replace all O-rings and shorten the liquid pickup 
> tube.  What other things need to be done other than a good
> bleach-water cleaning?
 
	ACK! NO BLEACH!

	Bleach eats stainless. Use it sparingly if at all,
then rinse well. I use boiling water w/ a little detergent,
followed by more hot water to rinse.

	I've never bothered shortening the pickup tubes on my
kegs. The first mug is chewy. Big deal. I'd hate to waste
beer!

> 4)  I think, but don't know, that the beer would stay fresh
> after you've tapped it part way and then swapped it out for
> another keg and came back to it a little later.  Is there
> any difference between that and not having tapped it later?

	If you don't tap it, you can't drink it 8<:^). The CO2
blanket on top keeps it from oxidizing, and the opacity of the
keg keeps it from going skunky, but nothing stops the march of
time. Using part of a keg is fine, as long as you dispense w/
CO2, which brings me to...

> I don't have to worry about oxidation...

	Well, don't *worry*, exactly, 8<:^) but here's some
thoughts:

	Lay down a bed of CO2 in the keg before racking the
beer in. It's heavier than air, and will stay in the bottom a
long time. This displaces (or at least dilutes) the oxygen rich
mixture we know and love as air, preventing oxidation if the
beer splashes its way in.

	Beer going bad in a frat house keg is a result of that
little pump on top, forcing nice, fresh, oxygen and bacteria
rich air in.

> 5) any other hints/tips/admonishments from Soda Keggers?

	Get a Foxx Equipment catalog. Saves a lot of money.

	Identify your kegs by manufacturer, fitting type, and
(if possible) model. This will save you a lot of frustration
ordering parts. Try to keep the equipment compatible, as this
saves inventory in your parts stock. When ordering gaskets,
get spares.

	Store empty kegs dry, with ~5psi of CO2 in them. This
makes it easy to tell if the seals are good, and keeps nasty
things out.

	Keep the fittings covered to avoid UV damage (I use a
paper bag), and clean them before each use to avoid 
contamination.

	Mark the contents when you store them full; I use a
magic marker on the trusty paper bag. Sometimes my memory
ain't so good.
					--martya

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Date: Tue, 03 Dec 91 00:46:09 -0800
From: mcnally at Pa.dec.com
Subject: getting unusual salts


Look in the Yellow Pages under "chemical supply".  Call some and say you
want small quantities of calcium chloride or magnesium chloride or 
whatever else you need.  Make damn sure you say you want USP grade 
stuff for food processing.

_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
Mike McNally                                           mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation
Western Software Lab

Return to table of contents


Date: Tuesday, 3 Dec 1991 09:01:03 EST
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re: Late Boil-up

>From: IO10676 at maine.maine.edu

>When the wort forms a head and starts making a run for the edge
>of the pot, you pour a splash of cold water in it.  Puts it
>right in its place, which is back in the pot.

>But this is off the subject.  Usually, I have to do this maybe 4
>or 5 times - 10 or 12 for a particularly ornery brew - and then
>the foam breaks up and the wort settles in and boils happily.

I figured this was worth a question to the digest.  I have
resorted on occasion to the "cold water" method, but dislike it
since you have to watch out for boil-over again.  So I normally
just use the "blow on" method to reduce the foam.  This is tough
on those who hyperventilate easily, but is great in that you
don't have to worry about another boil-over happening that batch.

Could someone explain what is happening differently in the two
situations?  Thanks.

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
           (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Tuesday, 3 Dec 1991 09:01:43 EST
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Infections

>From: b_turnbaugh at csc32.enet.dec.com

>My question is did the bacteria take over my brewing basement??

>Should I get down on my hands an knees and scrub everything with
>clorox??

An acquaintance had a similar problem and used a bleach solution
in a spray bottle to clean all the surfaces (cabinet, counters,
etc.) in the kitchen.  Whether this was the clincher or his
sanitation just improved, his beers aren't getting infected any
more.

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
           (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Tuesday, 3 Dec 1991 09:03:53 EST
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Brewing Good Beer

Jack says:
>I do not doubt that some people can make good beer with extracts
>but I can now honestly say, I don't think I ever did.  All grain
>brewing takes a bit more time and effort but the satisfaction is
>immence.  Dollar-a-gallon beer is also no small part of the
>compensation.

While I cannot argue against all-grain brewing, let me just say
that my experience has been that in brewing as well as in
cooking, the quality of the ingredients is very important.
Commercial kits and extracts are of varying quality.  If you find
yourself making an award winning beer with extract, stick to that
extract as much as you can, since it very likely was produced
with good ingredients.  Of course, it may not be great for other
styles, but that is another issue.

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
           (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

Return to table of contents


Date:  3 Dec 1991   9:04 EST
From: dab at pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (dave ballard)
Subject: the friendly skies and homebrew




Hey now-  Got a question for all you seasoned veterans-  what's the best
way to ship homebrew to out-of-state competitions?  I know someone
mentioned that zymurgy did a piece on the subject, but I don't have 
it.  Any help would be appreciated... 



iko-
dab

by the way-  i'm enjoying the kinder gentler hbd a great deal... ;-)
=======================================================================
dave ballard                              "Maybe you had too much too fast"
dab at pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com



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Date: Tue, 03 Dec 91 09:25:44 EST
From: Dean Cookson <cookson at mbunix.mitre.org>
Subject: Electric mashing bins


Ok, I've been convinced.  It's time I try making an all grain beer.

But, now I have to decide what to mash in.  I've been thinking of
buying a 40qt round plastic cooler, and doing a simple infusion
mash (I'm mainly a British ale brewer/drinker), but all this talk about
electric mashing bins has be curious.  How much do these things
run in general, how easy are they to use, and can you boil as well
as mash in all of them??  Also, are there any 110 VAC units worth it?
I have a gas stove and a gas dryer, so there are no 220 VAC outlets
in the house. :-(

Thanks,
Dean


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 3 Dec 91 9:36:39 EST
From: wbt at cbema.att.com
Subject: Ternary and Quaternary Brazing Alloys for Homebrewing

> From: Tom Dimock <RGG at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>
> 
> I am reading my way through the HBD archive, and came across a post in
> HBD 512 stating that silver solder is 97% lead and 3% silver.  

That's a negative. Silver solders aren't really solders; they're
silver-copper-zinc alloys.  Some alloys contain cadmium, however, so you
should check the chemistry of the particular alloy you wish to use.

My _Metals Handbook_ reccommends using alloys containing at least 50%
silver when joining stainless steel, to prevent selective attack of the
brazed joints.  If you're working with a 300-series (austenitic) stainless
steel, try to use an "extra-low carbon" variety, such as 304-L or 316-ELC.

> Now comes the fun part, attaching the fittings to the keg.  They can be
> silver-soldered in (normal solder won't bond to the keg), or they can
> be welded.  

If welding is affordable, I recommend it over silver-soldering.  It will
remove any concerns over the long-term integrity of the joint.

> From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu>
> Subject: Lace
> 
> I get Lace in almost very beer I brew, even ones that are exclusively extract.
 
I recently discovered the 12 "lost bottles" of our 3rd batch of homebrew;
a version of Papazian's Tumultuous Porter (aka Goat Scrotum Ale) bottled
last March.  We used blackstrap molasses in that one, and combined with the
ginger and roast barley in the recipe (extract, BTW), the flavor was
initially very bitter/astringent.  Well, we *did* manage to kill a case 
and a half of it, but set the rest aside when a better batch came along.

Anyway, 9 months in the bottle did wonders for this beer.  The edge came
off the ginger, and the molasses bite has vanished, leaving only the
effect of the roast barley and, of course, hops.  A very palatable, 
though somewhat dry, molasses flavor is evident in the finish.  The mouth
feel is also quite good.  An altogether pleasing brew!

More to the point, the beer produces quite a bit of foam when poured
(I'd guess it's somewhat overcarbonated; we've had gusher infections and
this is nothing like that).  After it has time to collapse a bit, the
result is a truly fine head, and Belgian Lace to the bottom of the glass.

This also brings to mind a question on aging beer.  This porter's initial
gravity was about 1.045, so it's not a particularly big beer.  Fairly
complex mix of dark malts, naturally... but overall not something I would
have expected to benefit from such long-term aging.  I'd be interested in
hearing the experiences others have had with aging homebrew.

> From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
> Subject: Re: Galvanized Mesh
 
> To the best of my
> recollection, the binding of the metals in an alloy is not exactly chemical 
> but is quite a bit more than simply mechanical.  

Alloys are solid solutions, like a wort is a solution.  Same
chemistry in a different state of matter.  

There is a corrosion phenomenon known as "selective leaching" which is a 
known problem with brasses.  The zinc, being more reactive than copper, is
selectively removed from the alloy, leaving only copper behind.  This is 
also called "dezincification."  I'm uncertain whether the homebrewing 
environment is severe enough to produce this effect to any great depth in
the metal; I tend to doubt it.  In any event, the release rate of zinc 
would be minute in comparison to that of the near-pure zinc of a galvanized
finish.  

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker       AT&T Network Systems - Columbus            cbema!wbt
Quality Engineer      Network Wireless Systems       wbt at cbnews.att.com


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Date: Tuesday, 3 Dec 1991 10:19:56 EST
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re: Casks

>From: korz at ihlpl.att.com

>Dworkin asks whether to buy unlined, charred, or parafin-lined
>casks.

This reminds me that there was an interesting article about a
former Homebrewer of the Year in _zymurgy_ a few years back.  It
discussed how he raises his own barley, malts it himself, ...,
and uses wooden kegs.  (Did he win with a Belgian Brown?)

Sounded like a lot of work, but there also might be more detail
in a Beer & Brewing volume.

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
           (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Tuesday, 3 December 1991 10:15am ET
From: joshua.grosse at amail.amdahl.com
Subject: re: Yeast Culturing



In HBD 773, Bryan Gros <bgros at sensitivity.berkeley.edu> writes:

>Would it work to just take some of the trub left after bottling the
>brown ale, add it to some boiled and cooled extract in a bottle,
>put an airlock on, and when done, cap it and refrigerate it?  Then
>I just let this warm up and add it to my next batch?  or maybe
>make a starter in a wine bottle?   And if this works, how many times
>can I do this?

And Peter Glen Berger <pb1p+ at andrew.cmu.edu> writes:

>Can anyone provide me with quick and dirty instructions on how to
>culture the yeast from a Sierra Nevada bottle?  Or am I just getting
>myself into something endlessly complex?  Thanks.


You can cut your costs on using expensive laboratory yeast cultures, or
use a particular brewery yeast from an unpasteruized and unfiltered
brand the same way:  culture from the sediment in a bottle.  Dave
Miller, in The Complete Handbook of Homebrewing, recommends only going
ONE generation, to avoid attenuation changes from common mutations, and
to avoid problems with bacteria.

The technique is to make some fairly hopped wort and pitch your dregs
into it.  Both Miller and Papazian (in The Complete Joy..) have
methodologies outlined.  Miller's book has instructions for making up 3
gallon batches of wort, and using home-canning equipment to store wort
for culturing use.  Both recommend small containers with fermentation
locks.

I use Miller's canned wort, but do my culturing in the bottom of a
5-gallon carboy, that becomes my primary fermenter.  I pour off most of
the "used" wort when culturing is complete, and then pitch cold wort
onto the trub.  I use this method with either the original lab culture
or with dregs from my first generation.  Sanitation is critical, and
I swab the bottle, cap, neck, quart canning jar & lid with alchohol.
I sanitize the carboy and funnel, fermentation lock etc. with the usual
weak (approx 1-5 ppm chlorine) solution and I DON'T rinse.
My tap water contains coliform bacteria, even though its chlorinated.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Josh Grosse                                jdg00 at amail.amdahl.com
Amdahl Corp.                               313-358-4440
Southfield, Michigan

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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 91 10:21:09 EST
From: perley at easygoer.crd.ge.com (Donald P Perley)
Subject: Re: (Stolen?) kegs for kettles



Someone asked about the cost to a brewery if you sacrifice the deposit
and keep a keg.  

I got this from the latest issue of "The Irish Emigrant"

>       > > > > > > > > >   BITS AND PIECES   < < < < < < < < <
>     
>     - 57,000 empty beer kegs belonging to Guinness went missing 
>       during the first nine months of the year.  The company suspects 
>       organised criminal gangs but does not say what they do with 
>       them.  The kegs cost #50 each to replace.
 
I guess WE know what everyone is doing with them; heh heh heh...

I don't know what the currency exchange rate is.

 -don perley
  

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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 91 08:57:25 MST
From: pyle at intellistor.com (Norm Pyle)
Subject: Yeast flavour impact, etc.

Desmond Mottram writes:

>Re Yeast: I've been impressed by the range of yeasts mentioned on HBD. In 
>the UK many yeasts are available for wine-making but I've found only three 
>for beer-making: real-ale, cheap and lager. How much difference does the 
>yeast strain make to the flavour of the beer? I'd suspect a lot, but havn't 
>got the variety to experiment with.

In my short (7 batch) experience, I've used three types of yeast and tasted
the results of other HB'ers work with a couple of other types of yeast.  I've
decided that the type of yeast affects the final flavour more than any other
ingredient.  Assuming a particular recipe, varying the brand of yeast can
make a drastic difference in the final product, from near-pro-quality to
not-very-pleasant.  I've done this experiment and was pleasantly surprised at
the results, since I've got a variety of yeasts available to me.  You might
try a mail order house in the US or elsewhere to gain some variety.

Mark Davidson writes:

>go.  Where is the best place for an absolute novice to start?  Any
>bibles that are a must read for home brewing (aimed directly at
>the novice).  Where to get supplies (I live in New Orleans)?

"The Complete Joy of Homebrewing" by Papazian, and "The Complete Handbook of
Homebrewing" by Miller are widely considered the "bibles".  Check your local
yellow pages for homebrew shops; a city the size of NO should have a couple.
Good Luck.

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 03 Dec 91 11:36:34 -0500
From: steve at endgame.gsfc.nasa.gov
Subject: Re: Silver Solder 

Tom Dimock was wondering (in two digest messages) about silver "solder"...

> I am reading my way through the HBD archive, and came across a post in
> HBD 512 stating that silver solder is 97% lead and 3% silver.  Do any
> of our metalurgists (or materials scientists) out there know what the
> story is on this?  If silver solder can result in free lead, I'd like
> to know so that I can deal with that in my construction article.

#define DISCLAIMER "I know just enough to be unsure of myself"

A quick plunge in the Metals Handbook [Wonderful set-o-books, BTW] produced
the following...

Silver _solder_ (the stuff that melts at 450 F) seems to come in two basic
compositions:
	Tin-silver ranges from 90-97.5% tin, with the remainder being silver.

	Lead-silver [you definately do NOT want this!] is 94.5-98.9 LEAD, 
	the remainder being silver.

Silver brazing (which for some reason is often referred to as silver 
"soldering") is a different animal.

The stuff I'm using for stainless work (J.W. Harris Safety-Silv 1370) has 
the following nominal characteristics (BAg-5 is the "official" category):
    Silver: 45%		Copper: 30%	Zinc: 25%

The alloy has a solidus of 1225F, liquidus of 1370F and a working temp. range
of 1370-1550 F. The flux (Stay-Silv "White") is a bit nasty, so be sure to
clean, clean, clean it off before using the "fixture" for food. I'm told that
the "service temperature" for joints made with this alloy is approx. 400 F.

Another book which I recently uncovered, and is about nothing but stainless
steels, recommends using BAg-4 alloy. It is similar to the above, but has
[nominally] 40% silver, with the difference being made up of roughly 1.5% 
nickel and the remainder additional zinc.

Both of these alloys (according to the info I have) are food safe, and contain
NO cadmium.

The down side of them is cost. I paid $57 for 5 Troy ounces (the smallest
size my supplier has in stock) of 1/16" wire. There is a place called 
Small Parts Inc. in Florida (I can look up the address tonight), and I'm 
sure there are others, that carries it in 1 oz. coils for about $22. I went 
with what I have primarily because of availability, and on the advice of 
someone who knows more than I do that it would work just as well.

Steve Rezsutek

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Date: Tue, 03 Dec 91 11:48:14 -0500
From: steve at endgame.gsfc.nasa.gov
Subject: Re: Whitbread ale yeast 

Mike McNally sez...

> What the heck is the deal with Whitbread yeast?  I pitched a packet into
> a 1/2 liter of starter wort, and in about an hour there was a big krausen
> and the stuff was working its way toward the airlock.  Dang.

> There was a very pleasant floral/fruit aroma to the starter when it went
> into the wort this morning.

I've used the Whitbread [dry] Ale yeast quite a few times, and while I also
noticed that it seems mighty "fast-acting", the beers that I've made with
it have all turned out wonderful.

One other thing about it, is that is seems to do a very good job on high
gravity beers. I make an 18+ Plato, (7+% alc :-), Knock-Your-Xmas-Stockings-Off
ale, and the whitbread seems quite up to the task. The "pleasant floral/fruity"
aroma carries over a bit into the beer, which, IMHO, adds to it immesurably.

Steve Rezsutek

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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1991 09:00:28 -0800
From: krweiss at ucdavis.edu
Subject: Irish Ale Yeast/carbonation summary

About three weeks ago I posted a message noting some problems I had with
bottle carbonation in four batches of beer brewed with Wyeast Irish Ale
yeast. I asked for other folks' experience with this yeast.

I got 4 responses. 1 said they had no problem with carbonation. 2 asked to
hear the results of my survey. 1 said that he, also, had problems getting
beer carbonated when brewed with the Irish Ale yeast.

So, the conclusion is inconclusive... I'll probably still use the yeast, as
I really like the flavor it gave to a highly-hopped high gravity beer, but
I'll make a point of getting the beer out of the secondary and into bottles
within two weeks of the pitching date.

I was in LA over Thanksgiving. My mother-in-law lives about two blocks from
Wolfgang Puck's brewery, Eureka. A friend and I dropped in around 3:00 on a
Wednesday afternoon to sample a few beers. The guard at the door informed
us that lunch service ended at 2:30. "No problem," we said, "We're just
here for a beer at the bar." Not only was the bar closed as well, but the
bartender behaved as if we were insane for thinking we could get a beer at
such an outrageous hour. I mean, really, did we think we were in a BREWERY
or something??? If someone can send me a Pediococcus culture, maybe I'll
drop in on my next trip to LA and spray it around... ;-P What's next? Beer
tastings complete with precious little commentaries? "A woodsy little beer
with an insoucient nose, and a rascally finish. Unpresumptuous, but
sturdy." ARRRGHHH! If I wanted to be associated with pretentious snobby
weenies that drink for flavor and not effect, I'd drink wine. Whew, I feel
better now.



- -------------------------------------------
Ken Weiss               krweiss at ucdavis.edu
Computing Services      916/752-5554
U.C. Davis              916/752-9154 (fax)
Davis, CA 95616


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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 91 11:51:00 EST
From: eisen at kopf.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Carl West)
Subject: Quick and clean culturing from a SN bottle

1. Make or have on hand, a small amount of recently boiled, 
   low gravity wort (~1/2cup) at pitching temp (the microwave 
   is a fine tool for the job, I just do it up in a glass and 
   allow it to cool in the 'wave).

2. Decant the beer leaving about 1/2" of beer in the bottle, 
   and set it aside for later.

3. Flame the lips of the wort container and the SN bottle.

4. Pour enough wort into the bottle to bring the level up to 1".

5. Put an airlock on the bottle and shake it up.

   5a.Drink the beer.

6. Shake it up whenever you think of it for the next day or so 
   (keep it aerated).

7. Repeat steps 1 and 3.

8. Add enough recently re-boiled wort to bring the level up to 2".

9. Repeat steps 6,7,and 8, ~doubling the volume until you've got 
   the amount that you want to pitch.


This method worked for me the first time I tried.

Carl West

WISL,BM


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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 91 10:46:10 mst
From: Kent Dinkel <dinkel at hpmtaa.lvld.hp.com>
Subject: Priming with DME
Full-Name: Kent Dinkel

To Dave Ballad (lost your address so I couldn't reply directly),

> If you've already thought of this, I apologize.  I'm kinda slow
> sometimes.

I'm VERY slow MOST of the time and hadn't thought of this.  Thanks for the
tip!

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

To Those Who've Primed with DME,

I tried priming my recent oatmeal stout with 1 cup dark DME instead of 3/4
cup corn sugar.  I'm not sure what in the %$## came over me since I've had
decent results with corn sugar in the past and had plenty of corn sugar on
hand for this batch.  Anyway, after a week in the bottle the brew tastes
quite good for its age (so I'm pretty sure that there's not an infection --
at least not one I can taste) but is VERY flat.  It has NO head and hardly
any carbonation.  Just a slight "ppfftt" when the bottle is opened.
*Usually* I've got decent carbonation by this point -- the beer just needs
further aging for flavor.  Although I can't be sure, I'm pretty sure that
the yeast was doing ok at least until I bottled since the S.G.  got down to
1.016 or so (which was approximately the expected result).  I believe my
options for this batch are:

1.  Relax (for a couple of months), have (a different) homebrew (until this
    one is ready).

2.  Put the beer in a warmer place.  It's currently in the basement where
    (temp < 60 deg F).  I could put it upstairs where (62 deg F < temp <
    68 deg F).  However, I'm a little paranoid about getting the beer too
    warm and developing off flavors.

3.  Add a LITTLE yeast to each bottle.  If this doesn't work, go to 4.

4.  Try adding 1/4 tsp corn sugar to each bottle.

My local expert tells me #1 is the preferred option since priming with DME
just takes longer for carbonation to complete.  He's usually right, however,
I can be pretty impatient (especially when it comes to waiting for my brew)
and was hoping there was a quicker alternative.  Have others who've primed
with DME had the same experience and do you have any recommedations?

Thanks in advance,

Kent    "maybe someday I'll get this brewing business figured out and quit 
        experimenting with EVERY flipping batch" Dinkel

dinkel at hpmtaa.lvld.hp.com

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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 91 12:49:34 EST
From: bkelley at pms001.pms.ford.com ( Brian Kelley )
Subject: Pasteurized Pub Draught Guinness


In HBD 769, Steve Kirkish (kla!kirkish at Sun.COM) writes:

>... but just
>think:  Anchor flash pasteurizes and Coors doesn't, and then compare the
>flavor.  I know the ingredients and process differ, but that flashing,
>amazingly, can't be all bad.

Not bad at all.  During a recent trip to Chicago I was able to try the new
Pub Draught Guiness.  As other readers have confirmed, the head was great!
One thing that did surprise me was the large "Pasteurized" stamp on the can.
I never realized Guiness was pasteurized.

I also found a beer store with Red Tale Ale.  Recalling a recent HBD issue 
where someone stated it was only available out West, I picked up a six.  I
found it rather unique and enjoyable.  

I've got to get to Chicago more often!  We didn't have nearly enough time
to check out the many interesting pubs and breweries.  If anyone can let me 
know where I should go next time (pubs with good draught and breweries to
tour), please drop me a note.

- ---
bkelley at pms001.pms.ford.com

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Date:         Tue, 03 Dec 91 13:33:37 EST
From: Tom Dimock <RGG at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:      Silver Solder summary

Thanks to all who responded.  It seems that asking whether "silver
solder" has lead in it is like asking whether beer has wheat in it.
Silver Solder is a generic name under which fall substances with
a large number of compositions.  The bottom line is that there are
silver solders you can use (95% tin, 5% silver, for example) and ones
that you must not (lead and/or cadmium containing compositions, for
example).  Make sure you know what you're using and that it is safe!
They will all be expensive, and the consensus was that they are really
finicky to use - they require fairly exact temperature control.  If
things are either too hot or too cold, the solder just runs off, making
expensive little blobs on the floor.

As Henry Troup said - "Heavy metals should not be taken lightly"

Tom Dimock  -  "Flame your kettle, not the net"

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Date:         Tue, 03 Dec 91 12:48:26 EST
From: "Dr. John" <JELJ at CORNELLA.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:      Mashing & chilling

Sorry for any extra garbage, haven't posted anything for a while, and
apparently the submission address has changed since I last did so.
- ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Greetings all,
  Glad to see the flaming being doused (mostly), though I did think that some
were warranted.  Now that we are back to serious discussions, I though I'd
weigh in with a few observations on mashing and chilling.

  Jack Schmidling, in #764, in your second "Stuff" posting, you claim that if
the boiling of the liquid under the false bottom in a direct-fired mash tun
could be controlled, then you would be gaining the benefits of a decoction
mash.  Then in #771 you talk about boiling puny little quart-sized portions
of the mash as though this is decoction mashing.
  Jack, you appear to be confused as to just what decoction mashing is.  May
I suggest that you pick up a copy of Noonan's book and read it, or re-read it
if you already have it.  Regardless of what any of us may think about the grasp
that Noonan has on his material, he does elaborate a procedure for decoction
mashing that works (I've used the approach successfully a couple times).  I
think that once you consult this reference you will be firmly disabused of the
notion that either of the approaches you discussed constitute a decoction mash.
In fact, the first one (boiling the liquid under the false bottom) would only
result in deactivating the enzymes.  I'd be interested in hearing what the
source of your information on decoction mashing is.

  Kinney, in regards to your questioning of the utility of a protein rest, in
#773, I think that the modification issue isn't a 2-row v.s. 6-row thing.  I
beleive that either type of barley can be modified to whatever degree the
maltster desires, and that the tradition is for Ale malts to be more
fully modified than Lager malts, thus obviating the nedd for a protein rest
in traditional ale mashing.  So, it seems to me that the question we need to
answer here is how well-modified is the malt we are using?  If some of the
protein still needs to be dealt with then we need to do a protein rest, if not
we don't.  I'm a firm beleiver in attempting to brew traditional styles with
their traditional raw materials, and as such will not be easily  convinced that
the protein rest has no place in homebrewing.

  In regards to chilling, Jack, in #770, you mention a very long time to
chill a 5 gallon batch through quarter-inch tubing immersed in an ice-water
bath.  In my system I use 20 or 25 feet (I can't remember which)
of quarter-inch copper tubing which I immerse in a 5-gallon bucket of ice
water.  Takes me about 25-30 minutes to chill 5.25 gallons or so.  I simply
set up a gravity-feed system where the hot wort flows from a 2-bucket hop-back
into the coil and thence into my 25 litre fermenter (where it sits for a couple
hours before being racked off the trub, aerated, and pitched).  I don't know
why your system took so long Jack, maybe the extra tubing, though that doesn't
seem to me to be a reasonable explanation.
  Mike Zentner, in #773, you seem perplexed as to temperature regulation with
an ice-water wort chiller.  Now, if you follow Jack's astute suggestion about
adding more ice as the initial load melts, then there is only one extra little
step you need to make this system work.  Hve you got one of those little
white plastic things for restricting the flow on plastic tubing?  I use one
with my setup, and by regulating the flow rate can adjust the temperature of
the wort coming out of the chiller.  If you require a precise temperature this
may not be for you, but if you can live with a close approximation you could
simply stick a sanitized thermometer in the outflow occasionally, read the
temperature and adjust the flow as necessary.
  Given the discussions we've seen about various sanitizing agents and their
effects on different materials, I'm convinced that regardless of whatever
minor hassles the system gives me, its big advantage is that I can use heat
(actually steam since I bake the coil after running some water through it) to
sanitize the coil and don't have to worry about what sort of byproducts I'm
creating with a chemistry experiment involving copper and bleach (or whatever).

  So, what's the scoop with Klages?  Is it modified fully enough to get by
without a protein rest?
Ooogy wawa,
Dr. John

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Date: Tue, 03 Dec 91 14:09:20 -0500
From: steve at endgame.gsfc.nasa.gov
Subject: Re: 2-row vs. 6-row 

Kinney Baughman sez:

>  ...we haven't had a discussion of the relative merits of single-stage 
> mashing vs upward infusion/decoction mashing in these electronic pages 
> in a while, if ever.  To get the ball rolling, I take the position 
> that upward infusion mashing is a waste of time for homebrewers.  A 
> single-temperature mash of two-row malt at 150 degrees is simpler and 
> yields a 'better' tasting beer.   Decoction mashing is interesting as 
> an exercise in getting back to basics but I wonder, in the end, if 
> it's really worth the extra trouble.

Well, I've done both single-temp ("toss in cooler and wait" as we call
it) and step (add heat to mash) mashes. I presume that this is what is meant
by "upward infusion", so correct me if I'm wrong here. (It could also mean
raising the temp by adding more hot water, no?).

Based on personal experience, I'm all in favor of doing a step mash, for  
a couple of reasons. First of all, I noticed that my extract efficiency 
jumped up a couple of points, which means I can use less grain for a given
beer, or make a higher gravity beer with the equipment available. This isn't
entirely insignificant when doing 10 gal. batches.

I have yet to get a real handle on controlling the charactistics of the 
resulting wort (only done 3 so far...), but I did bang through Noonan
to come up with the parameters I've been using, and was under the impression
that they would give a pretty good balance of mouth-feel, etc. So far, 
I've been pleased, although I did increase the water a bit on the last one
to help prevent the stuff burning on the bottom of the pot. 

The other reason I like doing the step, is that the runoff I get seems
to be much cleaner than what I was getting with a simple infusion. I'm
not sure that this has anything (or much of anything) to do with the
step mash per se, however. No experimental data, but I've been suspecting
that I could get a cleaner runoff from a simple infusion by either 
transferring the mash to a seperate vessel for sparging, or giving it 
a big stir before starting to sparge. In short, it seems that I get a 
much better filter bed (for whatever reasons) with the step mash.

Comments from the experts on this would be most welcome, BTW.

As far as the "waste of time" goes, hell, I've already blown the whole
day, another 1.5 hours isn't going to kill me. :-) 

> OK, you guys.  The ball's in your court...

Volley... :-)

Steve Rezsutek
Kinney Baughman                      |    Beer is my business and
baughmankr at conrad.appstate.edu       |    I'm late for work.


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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 91 11:10:52 PST
From: grumpy!cr at uunet.UU.NET (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: Anchor Christmas


Well folks, Anchor's Christmas brew is now available,
and this year's batch is very fine. I haven't tried
a bottle yet, but sampled the draft at the brewery last
night.

It's a spiced ale, and the dominant spice seems to be
nutmeg, which asserts itself most notably in the aroma.
The brewers were pretty even handed with the spices this
year, and the nutmeg is balanced and well integrated 
with the other flavors. In contrast to some of their
previous efforts, this brew has a definite hoppiness
as well. It's pretty pricey, two 12 packs set me back
$35.

Ho Ho Ho,

CR

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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 91 13:14:06 CST
From: lutzen at phys1.physics.umr.edu (lutzen)
Subject: Silver Solder (revisited)

To Tom Dimock:

Ignore the info on the HBD #512 post about silver solder's containing lead.  If
you were to go down to the hardware store and look at the silver solder for
plumbing, you would see the content as being 97% Tin and 3% Silver.  (Sorry,
but you can't always trust what you read in the HBD :-).  There may be
some silver solders that contain lead, but I haven't seen them.  Always be sure
to read the metal contents.  It is always printed on the package.

Side note: I remember reading somewhere that all solder connections on drinking
water now must made with lead-free solder.  I know it's all that I use, and I
haven't encountered any problems in using it.  Works just the same as the old
50-50 lead-tin solder..

BTW: be sure to get the proper flux.

Non-flame on:

 Thanks for turning of the flames, folks!  It was getting tiresome.

Non-flame off:


Karl Lutzen


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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1991 11:28 PDT
From: Bob Jones <BJONES at NOVA.llnl.gov>
Subject: Guinness draft in a can

I tried this draft in a can stout the other night. I liked it and thought
it was as good as the draft I get in my local pub. The real question I have
is how do they release the nitrogen when you open the can? I cut the can
open and found a little plastic vessel that obviously holds the gas but I
can't figure out the trip mechanism that causes it to release. Only guess I
have is it is the difference of pressure between the nitrogen in the small
vessel and the can that goes to atmospheric pressure when you open the can.
Seems wierd if so. Anyone know for sure. I can't fully enjoy the beer until
I know for sure. Engineering minds will never rest.

Bob Jones

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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 91 14:08:15 CST
From: Rob Sama <sama at midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: melon wheat beer

I recently (this weekend) tried brewing my second wheat beer.  I used 6.6 lbs
of pure wheat malt liquid extract, 2.5 lbs of clover honey, water, and one
honey dew melon.  It seems to be fermenting OK, but the sediment looks
awfully funny.  There is about a half-inch of white sediment on the very
bottom, then about another half inch of what looks like beer just above that,
and above that there is about a half-inch of white sediment on the very
bottom, then about another half inch of what looks like beer just above that,
and above that there is about two inches of green-white shit, on top of which
the yeast is fermenting.  What the hell?  I only used one ounce of hallertau
hops, so it couldnt be that, coult it?  I added the melon by cutting it up,
letting it steep in the wort, and then removing it before pouring into the
glass carboy.  What it that green stuff and will my beer come out ok?

	later,
	-samajam

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Date: 3 Dec 91 15:17:00 EST
From: "CCVAX::HAPANOWICZ" <HAPANOWICZ%CCVAX.decnet at bigvax.alfred.edu>
Subject: A message from my bottles


  A layer formed on the beer surface in the bottles of a recent batch. 
The layer is very thin and is white.  The batch is a cherry beer, based
on the "Cherries in the Snow" recipe in TCHOHB.  Fermentation went ok, it
was aged in the secondary for about 4 weeks with a SG of 1.020 at bottleing
time.   The beer tastes ok, but I think it needs more time to age in the
bottle, nice cherry flavor and aroma.   I drank a half a bottle the other 
night and recapped the remainder, Grolsh bottles.  The next day the layer
spread and covered the entire liquid surface.  The only thing I can think
of is a mold.  Am I correct?  The layer does not seem to grow larger in the
full bottles.  Should I just let this age and go with it?  It tastes good 
at this point, will the aging bring out a mold flavor?  Any Ideas?

  Rick Hapanowicz   HAPANOWI at CERAMICS



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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 91 13:26:51 PST
From: Bruce Mueller <mueller at sdd.hp.com>
Subject: Silver Solder Compositions

OK, here is a table summarizing about ten silver solder alloys whose
compositions are given in the 55th Ed. of the CRC "Handbook of Chemistry
and Physics".  Note that NONE contain any lead, but about half contained
cadmium, which is also a heavy metal (toxic).  One contains strictly
silver and copper, for those who must worry; it would work, but its liquidus
temperature (that is, where it is all molten) is 1635F.  The lowest is only
1125F (contains Cd, however).

Metal      % Range (weight)
- -----      ---------------
Ag            34-93
Cd             0-25
Cu             7-43
Ni             0-3.5
Sn             0-10.5
Zn             0-30

So you don't have to go looking up what the symbols are, in order: silver,
cadmium, copper, nickel, tin and zinc (with a 'c' is the American spelling;
German is 'k').

Machine Design's Materials Reference concurs on composition: silver with 
copper and sometimes zinc (this excludes the rest of the metals listed, 
but the statement is very brief).

Hope this ends the silver solder controversy!

Bruce Mueller
Development Engineer Chemist


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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 91 17:20 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Re: Yeasts (addition)

In my previous post, I mentioned better cold break in association
with the wort chiller.  In formulating an answer to Mark Davidson,
I realized that I forgot to mention that using a wort chiller
also keeps me from pouring hot wort into the fermenter.  Casting
aside the fear of restarting the oxidation wars, I feel that chilling
the wort to below 80F before pouring eliminated some sherry-like
flavors that my beer had.  According to the Zymurgy Troubleshooting
Issue (VOL 10, # 4), oxidation can cause sherry-like flavors.  I
concur.
Al.

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #774, 12/04/91
*************************************
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