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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator

Contents:
  Mex. beer, lemons, flop cider (mhalley)
  Re: Apple Cider Disaster (Dr. T. Andrews)
  re: rec.food.drink +... (Darryl Richman)
  possible coliform infection ("Allen J. Hainer")
  Sourness (NOLAN)
  Thanks and Time (Joseph Palladino)
  Clarification after bottling (florianb)

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Date:       14 Feb 89 15:38 -0330
From: <mhalley%MUN.BITNET at CORNELLC.ccs.cornell.edu>
Subject:    Mex. beer, lemons, flop cider

1] First off, I'm glad somebody came back with some of the
good Mexican darks.  What about Indio (my personal fave),
which is rather like a porter, but not quite as sweet?
2] The theory of wiping the dust off beer-can tops with
a chunk of lime (or lemon) and then discarding it is
rather interesting, especially to a folklorist like me.
However, my beer-drinking career began in the days when
ALL beer cans had to be opened with a "church-key" and
I was raised in California on walnut and citrus ranches
and in the barrios.  At that point, ONLY Tecate was
imbibed with lemon (ALWAYS lemon, NEVER lime), although
Carta Blanca and Mexicali both came in cans as well.  It
was a ritual as structured as that surrounding the
"shooting" of tequila, and went as follows:  open the
can of Tecate; squeeze lemon juice onto the can top until
it almost reaches the top of the rim; salt the can top
lightly; drink the beer THROUGH the salted lemon juice,
attempting to make it last till the end of the can.  On
a hot day, after a full day in the orchards, that tasted
awfully good -- though I'll admit Tecate on its own
is NOT one of the best.
3] To the gent who flopped his cider -- you can't really
rejuvenate it as CIDER at this point, BUT....  Go back
through the past issues of this hotline (or come back to
me personally through email) and get my recipe for
melomel.  Use your dud cider mixed with fresh sweet cider
(in almost any proportions, but the sweet is to enhance
flavour, NOT to allow fermentation -- the honey takes
care of that).  As long as the dud stuff is just blah
and hasn't "vinegared", you still have a chance of
producing an entirely drinkable and quite enjoyable
result.

4] Courage will out!  I just started my SECOND batch of
Geordie Scottish Export.  If it's as good as the first,
I'll be delighted.

Are Geordie products available
anywhere in the States, especially California or Maine?
At any rate, our visiting prof from Sheffield UK said
the first batch actually tasted like BEER, which was a
refreshing change.  The archivist, who has brewed in
the past, but had stopped, said tasting mine was so
good it had inspired him to resume brewing.  My good
buddy brewer and beer mentor tried mixing some of mine
which had been opened and gone flat with some of his
(lighter) that was heavily carbonated and we both
applauded the result.  My gentleman friend was MUCH
impressed, as he particularly likes dark beers, and
a female colleague from Scotland (who likes "beverages"
almost as much as I) said that anytime I wanted to
offer her a pint, SHE'D buy the pizza to go with it.
I think that says a LOT for your combined support and
assistance in my virgin effort.  Upward and onward.

Warmth to all, and a Happy Valentine's Day!

-Ye Olde Batte

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Date: Tue, 14 Feb 89 7:10:05 EST
From: Dr. T. Andrews <tanner at ki4pv>
Subject: Re: Apple Cider Disaster

) "flat, almost tasteless liquid" [resulting from apple juice and
) champagne yeast after some months]
It has been rather a while since I was involved with cider
production, much to my regret.  A real long time.  My memory
serves more or less; the most vivid memory is opening a bottle
and having the top shoot across the back yard in Nashville.

Our technique was admittedly crude: take apple juice (unfiltered)
and some sugar, and yeast.  We allowed it to sit for a week or so 
in the plastic fermentation vessel, and then bottled it.  It was
still active, I think.  We just waited another week or so, and
enjoyed the results.

I think I'll write to one of the other parties involved and see
if more specifics can be obtained.  I'm sure there was no period
of months before drinking the stuff.  I don't recall that the stuff
lasted very long after we started opening bottles, either!

Alcohol content was fairly modest, especially in the early bottles.

					Dr. T. Andrews, Systems
					CompuData, Inc.  DeLand

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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 89 06:30:25 PST
From: Darryl Richman <darryl at ism780c.isc.com>
Subject: re: rec.food.drink +...

From: a.e.mossberg <aem at mthvax.miami.edu>
"I think one thing we might do is to create a set of standard mailings for
"new members to the mailing list -- such as a basic how and why to homebrew.
"A teaser for it could periodically be posted to rec.food.drink. 

This idea has been floating around this digest for a while.  I've got
half an article written and I believe that there are a couple more
people who are at a similar point.  The why part is a lot easier than
how:  where do you want to compromise in explaining HOW in order
to make it brief and to make it sound doable.  (I find that a big
problem getting people interested in any new phase of the hobby,
including starting up, is that it takes so much verbage to describe
what turns out to be a fairly simple procedure.)  If you want to give
it a shot, I'll send you what I have and you can hack it as you see
fit.  It IS a good idea, if someone will pick it up and run with it.

		--Darryl Richman

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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 89 13:29:25 EST
From: "Allen J. Hainer" <ajhainer at violet.waterloo.edu>
Subject: possible coliform infection

  Help! Last night I wracked my wort.  Everything was sterilized and the
water I added was boiled, but I rinsed the carboy with tapwater.
  This morning I woke  up to here on the news that Waterloo water should
be boiled before drinking because  of high coliform counts.
  Can coliform survive in alcohol?  Should I throw everything out?

       A. J. Hainer   ajhainer at violet.waterloo.edu

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Date: Wed 15 Feb 89 10:26:46-PST
From: NOLAN%LHEAVX.SPAN at STAR.STANFORD.EDU
Subject: Sourness

I have been brewing from extract kits for a couple of years
on and off, something like 15 batches. I'm sold on the
concept, but disappointed in the results. My problem
is that everything I brew has a certain off-taste, which
I can best describe as "sour". In the good batches, it
is only an odor, but in the lousy batches it is a dominant
flavor. It may be associated with excessive foaminess in
the bottle (statistics are sparse). Figuring this for an 
infection, I have taken several steps:

    - Become fanatic about sterilization (I use clorox
      solution, rubber gloves, boil non-meltables,
      boiled and cooled water, no dry hopping, prime
      with boiled corn sugar syrup;

    - Reduced everything to as simple a procedure as
      possible (no specialty grains, 1-stage ferment,
      dry yeast) - I realize I'm sacrificing taste,
      but I'm trying to isolate the problem;

    - Tried changing the venue several times (three
      locations in two houses);

But the problem remains. I've never had anybody's homebrew
but mine, so I don't have a wide range of tasting experience.
Am I missing something? Or do extract brews just taste like
this normally? I'd appreciate any advice.

Tom Nolan, LHEAVX::NOLAN (SPAN)

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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 89 14:00:06 EST
From: palladin at moore.seas.upenn.edu (Joseph Palladino)
Subject: Thanks and Time

First a hearty thanks to everyone who took time to respond
to my grousing about extract Pale Ales.  

Second, I am quite surprised that homebrewing books, especially those
oriented toward novices, don't emphasize the importance of allowing
your brew to age before drinking.  In fact, many state that homebrews
need to be drunk young.  The point is, an IPA I brewed on New Year's
day was very bitter and still yeasty two or three weeks after
bottling.  I took the advise of one respondent (Len Reed?) and went to
a homebrewing club meeting with a couple of bottles to get other
brewers' advice on what went wrong.  To my surprise the damn stuff
tasted great!  The bitterness was just right (assertive) and the
crystal and toasted malt flavors came through.  In retrospect, it
seems that the first batch of ale I brewed with a kit was probably so
good, in part, since it was aged about 5 months.

My beers seem to get smoother with age and even just plain ales don't
show any signs of deterioration after many months.  If anything, they
may get a little drier.  

What is the general consensus on aging?

Lastly, I want to make a lager with two stage fermentation.  I have
one glass carboy and two plastic fermenters.  I like to use the
carboy/blowoff method for primary, but I also want to use the carboy
for secondary.  If I primary in the carboy, siphon into a sanitized
plastic bucket, snap on a lid, resanitize the carboy and then siphon
back will I be risking infection to a great degree?  I will, of
course, siphon without aerating the wort.  

Thanks,

Joe
 

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Date: 15 Feb 89 08:31:27 PST (Wed)
From: florianb%tekred.cna.tek.com at RELAY.CS.NET
Subject: Clarification after bottling

Two questions:

Does anyone know the mechanism whereby brews clear up after bottling?  How
do the yeasties suddlenly know that they have been sealed up and can now
relax?  Is it due to the presence of pressure?  It doesn't seem to be the
lack of something to chew on, since the brew will sit in a carboy for weeks
without clearing, even after the sg as dropped to terminal.  Is it really
the yeasties and not something else dropping out of suspension?  Please
clarify this question for me!

What are the advantages of using dry malt extract over extract syrup?
When should one use dry extract in a general sense, as opposed to using
it when a recipe calls for it?  Are there any advantages to using it
instead of a portion of freshly mashed grain?  Is there a reference
somewhere that discusses this topic?

Thanks and cheers.

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