---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator

Contents:
  apple cider disaster (Michael Bergman)
  apple cider disaster (Michael Bergman)
  Re: dry hopping (lbr)
  Re: Home draft (response to Mike Farkas) (a.e.mossberg)
  Made a mistake, what are my options
  re: kegs, canisters, and first time brewing (Darryl Richman)
  re: What is your extract efficiency? (Darryl Richman)
  rec.food.drink +... (a.e.mossberg)
  Beginner beer (Algis R Korzonas +1 312 979 8583)

Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Feb 89 11:52:22 est
From: Michael Bergman <bergman%odin.m2c.org at RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: apple cider disaster

I would say that you fermented out all the sugar (of which there
wasn't very much to begin with) producing not too much alcohol, and
added sugar after the yeast had died...or perhaps there is a
significant amount of alcohol and you just don't like the taste of
apple wine (I don't).  A good recipe I've tried the results of called
for a pound of honey per gallon of cider, *then* add the yeast...don't
let it go nearly as long as you did.  This recipe  was posted on this
board a few weeks ago.  

To "save" your brew, I think you should experiment with a bottle, see
how much sugar/honey you have to add to make it have flavor, then pour
it all back into a carboy, add a little more than that much sugar, and
ferment again.  This is assuming that there's very little alcohol in
it at present.  If there's a fair bit, you may just want to add
sugar/honey.  Then again, you may *not* find a "right amount" and have
to throw the stuff away.  Oh yeah--try some on your friends--someone
you know may have different tastes than you.  I threw away half a
batch of mead that had gone sour only to find that a friend liked
it--quite a surprise to me!

--mike

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Feb 89 11:52:40 est
From: Michael Bergman <bergman%odin.m2c.org at RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: apple cider disaster

I would say that you fermented out all the sugar (of which there
wasn't very much to begin with) producing not too much alcohol, and
added sugar after the yeast had died...or perhaps there is a
significant amount of alcohol and you just don't like the taste of
apple wine (I don't).  A good recipe I've tried the results of called
for a pound of honey per gallon of cider, *then* add the yeast...don't
let it go nearly as long as you did.  This recipe  was posted on this
board a few weeks ago.  

To "save" your brew, I think you should experiment with a bottle, see
how much sugar/honey you have to add to make it have flavor, then pour
it all back into a carboy, add a little more than that much sugar, and
ferment again.  This is assuming that there's very little alcohol in
it at present.  If there's a fair bit, you may just want to add
sugar/honey.  Then again, you may *not* find a "right amount" and have
to throw the stuff away.  Oh yeah--try some on your friends--someone
you know may have different tastes than you.  I threw away half a
batch of mead that had gone sour only to find that a friend liked
it--quite a surprise to me!

--mike

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Feb 89 10:42:29 EST
From: lbr at gatech.edu
Subject: Re: dry hopping

jhersh at rdrc.rpi.edu (Jay Hersh) writes:

> .... Dry hopping is not done for bittering,
> but for aromatics....
> I saw a suggested technique in Vol 1-5 of Best of Beer and Brewing for
> sterilizing the hops prior to dry hopping. The suggestion was to flash 
> pasteurize them by steeping them or boiling them in 180F plus water for
> just one minute, then adding the hops and sterile water to the fermenter.

I came up with this technique myself after my original posting.  I boiled
a cup of water in a covered stainless steel saucepan and tossed the hops
in after removing the pan from the heat.  I let it sit five minutes,
covered, and the force cooled it and tossed hops and water into the carboy.
The result is aging in the carboy, and certainly does have the aroma I sought.
I'll let y'all know about the results.

- Len Reed

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Feb 89 11:25:14 EDT
From: a.e.mossberg <aem at mthvax.miami.edu>
Subject: Re: Home draft (response to Mike Farkas)

In HOMEBREW Digest #76, Michael L. Farkas <Farkas at GODZILLA.SCH.Symbolics.COM>
asks about "kegs, canisters, and first time brewing"

|Well guys, I've finally decided to take the plunge.
|I'm getting ready to make my first batch of beer.
|I'm going for a lager (seems like the easiest for a
|first time brewer).  But it seems like such a pain
|putting the stuff in bottles, so I want to go with a 
|tapping system. Now for the questions...

| 1)  I only have the resources to make it in five
|     gallon batches.  am I better off doing it in
|     one of those five gallon soda syrup cannisters,
|     or is it okay to brew only five gallons in
|     a 1/4 or 1/2 keg?

I think its a better idea to go with the five gallon containers.

| 2)  If i do it in a five gallon soda cannister, 
|     am I brain damaged thinking that I can
|     easily adapt the setup so I can use either
|     the five gallon cannister or a keg, so I can
|     buy commercial stuff when I don't have the
|     time to make my own?

All you need are the different connectors.

| 3)  If I am brain damaged, is it going to cost me
|     a fortune to buy a setup with two taps so
|     I can keep both on tap?

Just two taps and hoses (and connectors).  If you're talking about a
refridgerator with those upright taps, etc, I suspect it would be
a bit more, but certainly cheaper than two units.  You could always
buy a used refridgerator and install your own fittings.

aem
--
a.e.mossberg aem at mthvax.miami.edu MIAVAX::AEM (Span) aem at umiami.BITNET (soon)
I regard sex as the central problem of life.		- Havelock Ellis

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Feb 89 08:05 EST
From: man at bocar.att.com

Subject: Made a mistake, what are my options

I made a batch of lager last week that included a few firsts for me:

1. I pre-boiled and chilled my water on the advise of this mailing list.
2. I used WYeast for the first time (a lager strain).
3. I dry-hopped (before the warnings came public :-( )

I should also mention that this was an extract brew.  I pre-boiled 3 1/2
gallons of water and sealed it to cool in my secondary fridge.  I used
2 gallons of water in my boil also to make 5 1/2 gallons.  Another bit
of advise from this list was to use extra water so the racking tube
doesn't have to sit in the trub when siphoning.  Now the problem:
I racked the brew yesterday and I came up with only 4 gallons (no blowoff
tube method -- 7 gallon plastic primary with lock).  Somewhere between the
sterilizing the water on Sunday and boiling the wort on Tuesday, I got
confused and screwed up the quantities.  Sounds pretty stupid, but I did it.
My O.G. was 1.052 (as expected).  It's now in my secondary in my fridge for
2-3 months.  When I bottle, should I add an extra 1 gallon of boiled water
or bottle as it is ?

2 additional questions:

1.  To the people who pre-boil their water to sterilize:

    How do you cool it without letting air in.  When I put the sealed lid on
    pressure builds up and steam is released.  As it cools, it wants that air
    back and the sides of the fermenter contract.  I don't want to but a wort
    chiller just yet.  Do you submerge the container in an ice bath ?
    Tell me, tell me, tell me !!

2.  Since I am now using WYeast products, I'd like to try culturing the stuff.
I've read tCJoHB and see what Charlie P. says on the subject, but I'd
    like to hear your opinions as well.  If this has bee covered already,
    please mail me copies.

Thanks for the help,
Mark Nevar
201-580-4414

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Feb 89 08:02:53 PST
From: Darryl Richman <darryl at ism780c.isc.com>
Subject: re: kegs, canisters, and first time brewing

From: Michael L. Farkas <Farkas at GODZILLA.SCH.Symbolics.COM>
"Well guys, I've finally decided to take the plunge.
"I'm getting ready to make my first batch of beer.
"I'm going for a lager (seems like the easiest for a
"first time brewer).

Actually, ales are a lot easier because of the warmer temperatures
involved, although right now is perfect lager season in LA.  Might
hold long enough to make one (I hope, fingers crossed and beer in
the fermenter!).

"                     But it seems like such a pain
"putting the stuff in bottles, so I want to go with a 
"tapping system. Now for the questions...
"
" 1)  I only have the resources to make it in five
"     gallon batches.  am I better off doing it in
"     one of those five gallon soda syrup cannisters,
"     or is it okay to brew only five gallons in
"     a 1/4 or 1/2 keg?

If you just put the beer in to one of these, you risk oxidizing
it in a hurry.  However, if you're going to buy a CO2 bottle, you
can purge the air space with it first and then rack your beer into
it, and all should be well.  I use the 5 gallon Cornelius (soda pop)
canisters myself.  Be aware that there are two incompatible types.
One, commonly refered to as "Pepsi" or "7Up", has plain, cylindrical
inlet and outlet fittings.  I don't know about these because I use
the other type, AKA "Coke", which have two little prongs on the
inlet fitting and three on the outlet.

" 2)  If i do it in a five gallon soda cannister, 
"     am I brain damaged thinking that I can
"     easily adapt the setup so I can use either
"     the five gallon cannister or a keg, so I can
"     buy commercial stuff when I don't have the
"     time to make my own?

You can easily adapt by putting tees onto your CO2 line and buying
the fittings for whichever commercial style you want.  But there are
many different commercial fitting systems as well, so even then you
may only be able to drink one of Heinekens or Bud or Miller.  And
fittings, being a low volume item, are somewhat expensive.

" 3)  If I am brain damaged, is it going to cost me
"     a fortune to buy a setup with two taps so
"     I can keep both on tap?

With that much beer, if you aren't BD now...  But, as I said above,
you could stay broke buying different fittings.

" 4)  Where in the Los Angeles area can I buy
"     the tapping/cooling setup that won't cost
"     me my life savings?

In Culver City, go to Robinson's Draught Specialties, and bring
John some homebrew.  He's very helpful, and if you call first to
make sure he's not too busy, he'll tell you more than you need to
know.  I was able to buy my tapping equipment at a great discount
because he used ends of lines for me and happened to have a used
regulator.  He seems fascinated by these weird people who actually
*make* beer rather than just buying it.

" 5)  Is there anything I should know about Los Angeles
"     water, as far as conditioning it so my beer tastes
"     GREAT?

Water treatment is a very detailed subject.  If you are actually
in the city of LA, there are four different water sources.  I
live in the San Fernando Valley, and the water we get (stolen from
Mono Lake) is great for brewing just about anything but a true
Pilsener Urquell.  If you happen to be getting MWD water, you may
have difficulties brewing lighter lagers of any sort.  Arrowhead
Spring water is a very suitable replacement.  Call up the DWP
and ask them to send you a water report.  It's free.

(I hope the net will forgive me for proselytizing...)  Come on down
to a Maltose Falcons meeting.  First Sunday of each month at the
Home Wine and Beer Making Shop, 22846 Ventura Blvd. #2, 818 884
8586.  Members get a 20% discount on meeting weekends.

		--Darryl Richman
(The Falcon's Nest homebrewer's BBS sysop 818 349 5891)

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Feb 89 07:40:18 PST
From: Darryl Richman <darryl at ism780c.isc.com>
Subject: re: What is your extract efficiency?

In the Feb 13 digest, lbr at gatech.edu wrote:
"I wish Noonan had given me some idea about what compromising certain
"things would do to the result.  My biggest compromise right now is
"fermentation temperature:  I trust to luck.  But look at what he
"suggests: gradually lower the temperature, then raise
"it briefly to get the yeast to absorb diacitals (sp?), then lower it.
"The lager at very low temperature.  Then slighly higher after bottling.

Well, he is brewing at the peak.  Think about how to obtain good results
with less control.  In this case, just pick a warmer temperature to do
your whole fermentation at so that the diacetyls are reduced.  If it's
a good compromise, you won't notice them or the esters.

"Some of his recommendations seem like labor for no benefit.  I've never
"had a defective hot or cold break.  I can't imagine withdrawing boiling
"wort and force cooling it to 50 degF to check for the break.  He doesn't
"say that you might want to do this; he says you should do this.  This
"implies that failure to do this (or, say the iodine test) may ruin
"the beer.  Nonsense.

Actually, I've been tempted (but too busy) to try this.  However, you
are right, it does always seem to work out in the end.  But it would be
interesting to note which brews produce a stronger break.  If I knew
why, I might understand how I could shorten some of the steps.

"He also says you should dough in at 60 degF and then boost to 120.  I
"toss the grain into 135 degF water, which gives me 120.  His method
"seems like extra work.  (Will it give a higher extract?  If that's
"*all* it will do the hell with it.)

More extract, and potentially reduce starch haze if you make a mistake
and overshoot your mash off or sparge water temperature later.

"Do you then use the idoine test data to determine how much longer (past
"100% conversion) to leave the mash to get the proper dextrin/maltose
"balance?  Or do you merely use the test to estimate how long until
"the test will be negative?  I get a negative reaction in 1-20 minutes,
"but leave the mash 30-60 minutes total.  Knowing after 5 minutes that the
"test will be negative after 15 rather than 20 minutes seems of no real value;
"knowing how long to leave the mash to get the balance by some means
"other than the traditional one (wait until you measure the final gravity)
"would be useful.

Yes, it would be useful.  My habit is to let the mash rest for 10-15
minutes past the starch end point (as indicated by the iodine test).
Depending on the mash temperature profile, the end point can come
at radically different times.  So I do find the iodine test helpful.
But for a mash that rests at 155-158F, I can count on conversion
in less than 20 minutes (and often less than 10).  The extra minutes
are becuase "end point" is a judgement call since there is always
some bit of celullose from the husks that will cause the iodine to
react eventually...  I'm not really sure how long I should go, but
my beers turn out clear and stable so this seems good enough.

"" [I said I get 65-70% extract.]
"
"Darryl Richman <darryl at ism780c.isc.com> wrote:
"> You are looking at Noonan's decoction number, for infusion he quotes
"> 70%.  (Are you doing decoction?)
"
"Yes.  I haven't noted a great deal of difference in extract between infusion
"mashing British pale malt and decoction mashing N. American malt.  The latter
"makes far more trub.  I've not tried decoction vs. infusion for the same
"malt.  Infusion mashing lager malt is a poor idea, isn't it?

Not in my experience.  The numbers I'm quoting you are for a step infusion
mash.  I don't have the facilities to decoct (is that right?).  Although
I do feel that I get some of the same benefits since my mash occurs in a
tall cylinder that is directly fired on the bottom.  So the thickest part
of the mash is heated and used to transfer heat to the thinner part of
the mash.  I don't believe it actually reaches boiling down there, but it
must certainly be hotter than the rest of the mash...

"> Anyway, to get back to the original issue, getting 1.030 sg/lb./gal.
"> seems to be above average in homebrewing circles and is nothing to
"> be worried about.
"
"Fine.  It's fermentation temperatures that are bugging me now that I'm
"trying to make lager beer.  I've made satisfactory ales in the easily
"attained range of high 50's to middle 70s.  I'll probably spring
"for a used fridge if I can't be assured that *one* will get me through
"the summer months when light lagers (a la Carlsberg) are so nice.

Try to compromise.  If you can't find a good compromise for your yeast,
then you'll have to bite the bullet.  I'm using a strain that has been
floating around the Falcons for a number of years that they claim is from
A-B and it ferments very nicely at 52F.  At that temperature there aren't
any diacetyls left and the esters are unnoticed (at least in judgings).

Anyway, I'm not worried about the need for a fridge.  My first lagering
fridge cost me $10.  I spent the other $90 I had expected to spend on
kegging equipment.  Then I happened on a chest freezer for free.  I
spent the money I had saved on a deli case thermostat and so I have a
tap fridge and a fermenting chamber.  So relax...  this is still more
art than science.  When you figure something out and turn a little
piece from art into science, that is a great triumph.

		--Darryl Richman
(The Falcon's Nest homebrewer's BBS sysop 818 349 5891)

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Feb 89 20:31:43 est
From: a.e.mossberg <aem at mthvax.miami.edu>
Subject: rec.food.drink +...

I was looking through the articles in rec.food.drink that I saved, and I 
couldn't find *any* worth putting out in the homebrew archive on mthvax.

I think one thing we might do is to create a set of standard mailings for
new members to the mailing list -- such as a basic how and why to homebrew.
A teaser for it could periodically be posted to rec.food.drink. 

aem
a.e.mossberg aem at mthvax.miami.edu MIAVAX::AEM (Span) aem at umiami.BITNET (soon)
Shooting down a plane, even one with hundreds of innocent men, women, children,
and babies, is part of their normal procedure. Pres. Reagan [refering to KAL007]

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Feb 89 10:35:58 CST
From: hplabs!uiucdcs!iwtsf!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 312 979 8583)
Subject: Beginner beer

In HOMEBREW Digest #76, Michael L. Farkas <Farkas at GODZILLA.SCH.Symbolics.COM>
says:

> Well guys, I've finally decided to take the plunge.
> I'm getting ready to make my first batch of beer.
> I'm going for a lager (seems like the easiest for a
> first time brewer).  But it seems like such a pain
> putting the stuff in bottles, so I want to go with a 
> tapping system.

*Hoooold on there Baba Louie!!!*

Lager is definately not the easiest to brew.  Ale is.
Also, I wouldn't recommend a keg for brewing in.
What you want to do is get yourself a 5- or 6-gallon
glass carboy (two if you plan to do two-stage fermentation).
These can be easily cleaned, fitted with air-locks, 
and you can see how your brew is doing (although you
want to keep it in the dark as much as possible).  I have not
tried kegging and expect to try it as soon as I have the room
for a fridge (unless you like warm beer), but for the first
few batches, the whole operation is _so_ exciting, that I didn't
mind bottling one bit.

Al.

Return to table of contents

---