---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Holiday Ale Recipe (Bob Jones)
  Homebrew Competition (2nd post) (Bob Jones)
  re Kraeusening  (Chip Hitchcock)
  BJCP upcoming exams (homer)
  Add my name to the list. (Chris Nitsopoulos)
  Seattle Blue Moon erratum (beng)
  Re: Kraeusening  (Chris Shenton)
  instructors and stuff (bryanny the curious)
  Blitz-Weinhard, Schmidling, et caet (Richard Childers)
  Unsubscribeing from HBD during moderator absence (Scott Knowles                       )
  Please cancel my subscription (Adam Ashby)
  Of Skimming and Cold Breaks.... (Jim White)
  hops in starter, water content (Jonathan A. Rodin)
  Re: Sam Adams Breweries (wegeng.henr801c)
  Re: Liquid Starters ( Brian Kelley )
  Jim Koch on the radio (gkushmer)
  Another Bottle Filling Technique (John Otten)
  Cuisinart pasta machine (joshua.grosse)
  Big time bitter (Russ Gelinas)
  More on Chillers ("William F. Pemberton")
  Immersion wort cooler (Daniel Roman)
  Re: Be gyled  (steve)
  Chicago beers (Robert Bradley)
  wet roller mill (krweiss)
  Hops and bacteria (Peter Glen Berger)
  Bottle Fillers (BREIN)
  Re: Kraeusening  (Dave Coombs)
  Re: distilled water and beer (bill)
  Christmas Beer (Tom Dimock)
  Contract Sam Adams (Jeff Frane)
  bottling wands (Michael Zentner)
  Comments on The Video Review (Jay Hersh)
  Auto Mash (Tun) ("John Cotterill")
  Yeast propagation forever?? (John Pierce)
  life-jackets and snorkels (DOBRES)
  Re: Homebrew Digest #784 (December 18, 1991) (CRAIGP%H2VX1)
  cancellation (michael gregg)


Send submissions to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues!]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1991 13:16 PDT
From: Bob Jones <BJONES at NOVA.llnl.gov>
Subject: Holiday Ale Recipe

Here is a Pale Ale Recipe I brewed for the Xmas holidays. It is in the style 
of American Pale Ale very similar to SN Celebration ale of about 1988. 
This is a big, hoppy brew, loaded with aromatic cascade hop fragrance, It 
has that front of the mouth bitterness that can only be achieved with dry 
hoping, so don't skip it if you really want to duplicate this flavor profile.

Crying Goat Ale 

Batch size 11 gals.

19 lb - 2 row klages
3 lb - Munich malt
2 lb - 40l crystal malt
1.5 lb - Home toasted 2 row klages (350 deg for 40 min). Age a couple 
weeks  before use.
2 lb - wheat malt
2 oz - N. Brewer hops (AA 6.9)
6 oz - Cascade hops (AA 5.1)
1 t - Gypsum (in mash)
2 t - Irish moss (last 30 min of boil)
Chico Ale yeast (wyeast 1056, keep temp at about 65-68 for primary 
fermentation)
1.5 Cups corn sugar to prime

Brewing specifics :
90 min boil
2 oz N. Brewer for 80 min
2 oz Cascade at end of boil for 10 min steep
4 oz Cascade dry hop (after 1 weeks, rack and add to secondary)

Mash specifics :
Single temp infusion mash for 90  at  155 deg
170 deg mash out for 10 min
sparge 11 gals  at  168 deg

OG:1070
FG:1020

Happy Holidays
Bob Jones


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1991 13:20 PDT
From: Bob Jones <BJONES at NOVA.llnl.gov>
Subject: Homebrew Competition (2nd post)


Dear Fellow Homebrewer:

     You are invited to participate in the 1992 Bay Area Brew-off 
homebrew competition. This years competition is hosted by The 
Draught Board homebrew club. The competition will be held at 
Lyons Brewery Depot in Dublin, Ca. on Jan 25, 1992. Entries will 
be received the week of Jan. 10-17 at Lyons Brewery. Entry dead-
line is Jan. 17, 1992. Mail or deliver your entries to Lyons 
Brewery Depot, 7294 San Ramon Road, Dublin, Ca. 94568. Entries 
consist of 2 - 12 oz. bottles. Entry fee is $5.00 per entry. One 
entry per category. Label each entry with category and sub cat-
egory if needed, your name, address, phone number and club affil-
iation.
	The catagories for this years competition will be as
follows:

	Dry Stout
	Porter
	Pale Ale - Sub Cat. are Classic Pale Ale, India Pale Ale,
                   American Pale Ale
	Amber Lager - Steam style
	Barley Wine
	Mead - Sub Cat. are Traditional, Melomel, Cyser, Metheglin
               (all still and sparkling)
	Holiday Beer - Spiced, herbed or other special beer 
		brewed for the Christmas holidays.

     This  is always a fun get together for homebrewers. I look 
forward to seeing you all there.

If you want additional details on the catagory definitions or have
general questions about the competition call Bob Jones
(510)743-9519 or email to BJONES at NOVA.LLNL.GOV



                                    See you at the competition,

                                    Bob Jones

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Dec 91 15:45:02 EST
From: cjh at vallance.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject:   re Kraeusening 

   The numbers quoted from Burch seem to me to be high. Consider (numbers
from various sources):

 1. 1# extract/gallon yields 45 points (average).
 2. extract is 15% water, so 1# spray/gallon yields 53 points.
 3. a cup of spray or cornsugar is .4#.
 4. common recommendation for a 5-gallon batch is 3/4 cup cornsugar
 5. This is .06#/gallon. multiply by 53 (points/#spray/gallon) gives 3.2
	points (assuming cornsugar gives the same SG/weight as malt sugars,
	which seems reasonable).

malts vary somewhat in their %fermentables, and yeasts vary widely in
%attenuation, but if we take 70% as a mean, 3.2 points of corn sugar have
the same amount of fermentables as 4.5 points of malt sugars. You might
juggle the above figures to get up to needing 5 points from malt, but
6 seems unlikely.
   (I'm doing this from memory, so I'm not sure about the above
]constant[s---but the one I'm most unsure of is #1, and I'm sure it's
not low---if it's high Burch's figures are even further off).

For a completed batch, we already know the attenuation in points. This
gives, for instance

		( change in SG ) * ( quarts of gyle )
	3.2 = ----------------------------------------
			20 + (quarts of gyle )

(assuming a 5-gallon (== 20 quarts) batch and an attempt at the canonical
amount of priming). This becomes

	quarts of gyle = 64  /   (  (change in SG) - 3.2  )

If your SG dropped 28 points (~70%), you should put in 2.6 quarts of gyle.
Note that this formula uses the \change/ in SG---not sure what P uses. I'd
have expected a physics teacher produce a correct formula (the one I used
to date certainly would have)....
   Note also that Miller, who doesn't think much of krauesening (probably
because it affects the flavor more in lagers, which he admits to
preferring), suggests two quarts of gyle in a batch.

   On the other hand, I have been krauesening ESB (which should have low
carbonation) with ~16 oz gyle in a 1/2-batch and getting results---
sometimes much too much carbonation for the style. I've found that
carbonation is very sensitive to factors like the type of yeast and the
amount that remains suspended, even when you prime with corn sugar; I once
used Polyclar (to get a blanket of CO2) when racking a stout, and it took
several months to get any head at all. I would look at other factors
(temperature during the first few weeks after priming, time since priming,
etc.) before substantially increasing the priming.

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Dec 91 14:53 MST
From: homer at drutx.att.com
Subject: BJCP upcoming exams

I had a question on BJCP exams, so I though I would post a
list of upcoming exams.  If there are no objections I will
continue to do so on a regular basis.

Chicago
January 12, 1992
Randy Mosher (312) 973-0240

Vancouver BC
Feb 9, 1992
Betty Ann Sather (604) 524-9463

Lenexa KS
Feb. 23, 1992
Jackie Rager (913) 469-9393 894-9131

Westport Mass
March 1, 1992
Leslie Reilly (508) 636-5154

Montreal PQ
March 1992
Tom Robson (514) 287-7529

Rochester, New York
April 25, 1992
Stephen Hodos (716) 272-1108 272-3465


Full details on the Beer Judge Certification Program are contained
in a booklet that can be requested by writing to:

AHA
PO Box 287
Boulder, CO 80306
Attn: BJCP Administrator

Jim Homer
BJCP Co-Director
att!drutx!homer

Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 15 Dec 91 14:58:51 EST
From: rubble!chris at inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com (Chris Nitsopoulos)
Subject: Add my name to the list.

add chris at rubble.uucp

- --
Chris Nitsopoulos        chris at rubble.uucp    ..!uunet!mnetor!rubble!chris
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Dec 91 14:46:20 PST
From: beng at microsoft.com
Subject: Seattle Blue Moon erratum

You know what I hate?  When somebody self-importantly corrects another's
posting, but introduces his own errors.

Dead Night at the Moon is SUNDAY night - not Thursday - as several kind
correspondents reminded me.

Sorry, Katy.  Sorry, y'all.

- --
Ben



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Dec 91 19:24:26 EST
From: Chris Shenton <chris at endgame.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Kraeusening 

On Fri, 13 Dec 91 17:14:05 PST, hays at voodoo.physics.ucsb.edu said:

Andy> I have a question regarding Kraeusening my medium to heavy bodied
Andy> ales.  I It is only verY Slightly Carbonated .  According to Burch, I
Andy> should raise the S.G.  by .005-.006 which I believe makes Charlie's
Andy> formula low by a factor of two.  In any case, I need some help from
Andy> you Kraeuseners.  The Details: Extract/Mash recipe with I.G.=1.040 ,
Andy> ... bottled with 1.4 quarts of gyle.

I typically use a gallon of saved wort for a 10 gallon batch, so that's 2
quarts for a 5 gallon batch. I keg, but prefer natural carbonation to
forced. Seems about the right level of fizz to me.

Return to table of contents


Date:         Tue, 17 Dec 91 19:43:50 EST
From: bryanny the curious <QXN132 at URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject:      instructors and stuff


errrrr   i  don' think i'm doing this right, but... (i'm posting through a
setup that catches this discussion  (called telec) and posting to it is
different than posting to a regular electronic mailing list - if you know what
i'm talking about, please tell me how to do it RIGHT!)

anyway, i also am in the S.C.A.  i am part of an amature brewing guild in
Trollhaven in Barony of the Bridge in the Knigdom of the East.  (that's the
University of Rhode Island for the uninitiated)  we would like very much to
talk in person to experienced homebrewers.  if you are willing to treck to us,
or to have us descend on your home (about 10-15 people) please contact me with
a snail-mail address or a phone number.  Also, i have heard mention that there
is a list that specializes in wines and meads (and maybe cordials?), could any-
one that knows the address please send it to me.

qxn132 at uriacc

(i hope that is all of it...)
thanks for you patience,
  -bryanny the curious   (mundanely victoria north)

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Date: Tue, 17 Dec 91 16:54:32 PST
From: Richard Childers <rchilder at us.oracle.com>
Subject: Blitz-Weinhard, Schmidling, et caet


Well, first off, while I've been reading this for about a year or so now,
I've never had anything useful to say, until now, but wished to thank all
those whom have made their experience, knowledge, and conjecture freely
available to all whom cared to partake.

I was up in Portland, attending classes at Sequent, and had the opportunity
to tour the Blitz-Weinhard Brewery. It was a waste of time, alas. I wish to
save anyone else so inclined, from wasting their time.

First off, the tour is _totally isolated_ from the brewery. OK, maybe that's
necessary to maintain sterility ... but I think the whole tour exists, not
for the benefit of the tourists, but for the benefit of Blitz-Weinhard.

The tour takes place in an isolated and out-of-use corner of the brewery, and
said corner is quite sealed off from the brewery proper. You are allowed to
gaze at some shiny metal vats that aren't particularly well-labeled as to
their functional relationship to the process, including the original brewery
vat, or one of them - which, incidentally, looked much like a large water
heater, making me wonder if it might be possible to start up a microbrewery
with a few well-sanitized, yet discarded, water heaters. That's about the
most valuable factoid I carried away from the tour.

Better than half of the time allotted to the tour was spent in the panelled
office of Henry Weinhard, Senior, watching a movie that didn't spend a second
in fifteen minutes discussing _how_ beer was made, preferring to replay old
advertisements, many of which relied heavily upon the antagonism that exists
between California and Oregon to promote their brew as a local product. Which
is amusing, as I recall all too clearly how Henry Weinhard's Private Reserve
was, um, ladelled down the throats of California consumers as the choice beer
of Real Beer Drinkers Everywhere, a few years back, when it came out. Divide
and conquer is not only a political strategy - it is a marketing gimmick, too.

The film did mention that a large percentage of their product relied upon the
inclusion of the finest rice and corn, along with choice hops and barley. My
interpretation of this is that, while they malt their own grains, they have
also found it convenient to manufacture their own corn starch onsite, but find
it sells better if they refer to such as 'grains' instead of 'starches'. From
my understanding of the brewing process, while a small amount of corn starch
may prove beneficial immediately before bottling, it is not a major ingedient
of beers in general. At Blitz-Weinhard, corn and rice starch are fillers, not
pre-bottling additives.

If they made that corner into a beer-making museum, dedicated to the history
of brewing in the Pacific Northwest, self-guided tours, everything neatly
labelled, lots of colored flowcharts detailing things, maybe a few photographs
of microscopic yeast doing their thing and some chemical formulae for those
so inclined, it would be great. They have some fine equipment in there. Alas,
nobody seems to regard it as of any importance except as props for Blitz PR.
It's really too bad. That corner of the building lies empty and unseen almost
all day, every day, 365 days a year, except for three half-hour slots a day.

Summary : don't waste your time unless you like to drink cheap beer and tour
empty buildings. You'll learn more brewing one batch and messing it up. )-:

Now that I've said that, I wish to address one other small issue ...

	Date: Mon, 9 Dec 91 14:04 CST
	From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
	Subject: STUFF

	 From: simmon at eeel.nist.gov (Eric Simmon)
	 Subject: Re: GRAINMILL
 
	 >Since this forum is a place for sharing (knowledge, ideas, 
	 experience...) why don't you just tell us how you made it.
	 
	 Past experience says that a long posting would have been 
	 received with little enthusiasm, by enough readers, that the 
	 whole objective would have been lost in endless flames.
	 
	 If you took the trouble to send for the information offered 
	 through email, you would now know how it was made.

Gee, Jack, that's funny. I sent you private mail in response to this ad -
oh, I'm sorry, it wasn't an ad, you were _sharing information_ - suggesting
that you do the very same thing that about half a hundred others must have
asked, in my absence - that you cease and desist your commerce, but that you
really ought to post a diagram of the Damned Thing - and I didn't get any
diagrams. All I got were some comments about how there were 'no laws here,
just hallway monitors.' Remember ?

	 However, as I happen to have a foundry and machine shop in 
	 my basement, it is a little like asking a brain surgeon how 
	 he fixed that tumor.

If you can't explain it to a five-year-old, you don't understand it. Maybe
in subsequent issues of HDB yet to be perused I will see the plans, but I
doubt it. My grandfather was one of the finest machinists in Texas during
the 1930s, rumor has it, and while I'm no machinist, I know how to draft
plans, read blueprints and schematics, and quite a bit else. Most everyone
else reading this is similarly highly qualified to pursue a wide range of
occupations. Don't you think it's about time you quit pretending you were
a brain surgeon amongst natives from farthest Borneo ?

And, yes, I _can_ explain network administration and multiprocessing to a
five-year-old.

I apologize for publicizing this, but I tried private email and it didn't
make a dent. If you don't stop, I'll probably just page past your name as
I see it, and ignore you as yet another marginally intelligent poltroon
with more text than sense or courtesy, better ignored as a bandwastroid.
It's unfortunate that you can't freely share of your designs and ideas
without trying to make a buck, but I don't pay people to change my tires
and I don't buy things I can make - from you or anyone else.

This is a noncommercial channel. Please respect it or leave.

- -- richard

=====

- -- richard childers		rchilder at us.oracle.com		1 415 506 2411
	oracle data center  --  unix systems & network administration


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Date:    Tue, 17 Dec 91 23:42 EST
From: Scott Knowles <NECHO%NCSUMVS.BITNET at ncsuvm.cc.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Unsubscribeing from HBD during moderator absence

Regarding recent comments about how to UNSUB from HBD...

Depending on what mailer sends you your HBD, you may be able
to unsub by telling the mailer directly, rather than telling
our moderator at homebrew-request.

For example, I get HBD from UA1VM.BITNET.  So I can send the
following message to    LISTSERV at UA1VM.BITNET    :
   UnSub Beer-L

Unsubscription is immediate.  Determine your own mailer by
checking the first couple of lines of the HBD header.
Remember to address your message to LISTSERV at yourmailer.

Scott Knowles (unsub'd for holidays, so I'll not see this note!)

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Date: Wed, 18 Dec 91 09:58:02 GMT
From: ashbya%zeus.swindon.rtsg.mot.com at zeus.swindon.rtsg.mot.com (Adam Ashby)
Subject: Please cancel my subscription

Please cancel my subscription - I shall be out of touch for a couple of weeks.


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Date:    Wed, 18 Dec 91 08:14:36 EST
From: Jim White <JWHITE at maine.maine.edu>
Subject: Of Skimming and Cold Breaks....


As a result of some dicussion, in this forum re: boilovers, I decided to skim
the thick brown mass that forms on the top of the (beginning to boil) wort.

Also, as a result of recent Miller readings, I decided to REALLY chill the
wort to cause a massive cold break to settle out.

After running the wort through my chiller, (25 ft of coiled copper sitting
amidst a bucket of snow). I then transferred the wort to my auxiliary
chiller ..... December. The pot sat outside (properly covered) overnight
with the air temp around 11 F. In the morning I brought it back inside,
(though I didn't open the pot, I could hear/feel sloshing so it wasn't
completely frozen). That evening I siphoned into my primary and pitched
the yeast.

I expected a huge mass of cold break material to have settled out with the
quick chilling and prolonged intense cooling. Though I'm not absolutely
positive I can identify cold break material, there was little mass of yuch
at the bottom of the bucket. What gives? Could this be because of the skimming?
Is the thick mass of foam that forms at the beginning of the boil the
same material that forms the cold break?


Jim White




On New Years Day, I'm getting a new (auxiliary) Wort Chiller !

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Date: Wed, 18 Dec 91 08:47:47 -0500
From: rodin at ftp.com (Jonathan A. Rodin)
Subject: hops in starter, water content

John DeCarlo (m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org) writes:
> No mention is made of hops, though.  I don't know of any
> good reason to put hops in your starter, but there might be some.

Hops contain a natural anti-bacterial agent.  Putting hops in your
starter will help prevent infection.

John writes:
>What exactly should I ask my water dept.? Should I call or write? Is
>there a law that says they have to supply this info at no cost?

If you don't have public water (I have private well water), there are usually 
plenty of labs around which do water analysis, but you have to know what to 
ask them to test for.  There's an article in the Winter Zymurgy, _Beer from 
Water_, which discusses how the water mineral content effects your beer.  
The following books have good material on water content:

    D.E. Briggs, J.S. Hough, R. Stephens, T.W. Wong, _Malting and Brewing
    Science, Volume 1, Malt and Sweet Wort_, Second Edition, Chapman and 
    Hall, New York, 1981.

    Dave Miller, _The Complete Handbook of Home Brewing_, Garden Way 
    Publishing, Pownal, Vermont, 1988.

    Gregory Noonan, _Brewing Lager Beer_, Brewers Publications, American
    Homebrewers Association, Boulder, CO, 1986.

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Rodin		ftp Software, Inc.		voice: (617) 224-6261
rodin at ftp.com		26 Princess Street		fax:   (617) 245-7943
	     		Wakefield, MA  01880



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Date: 	Wed, 18 Dec 1991 06:02:38 PST
From: wegeng.henr801c at xerox.com
Subject: Re: Sam Adams Breweries

To build on Jim Jedrey`s message:

According to a reliable source, much of the Sam Adams Ale is brewed by FX Matt
in Utica, NY (home of Matt`s, Utica Club, Saranac 1888, etc).  FX Matt brews
contract beer for several microbreweries.  Me thinks that they may be shipping
from Utica as well, since much of the keg ale that we get here in Rochester
tastes very fresh.  There is also the Sam Adams brew pub in Philadelphia, which
was brewing ales for on site consumption last time I was there.  I can`t say
for sure that the Philly brew pub is owned by Jim Koch, but it displays the
familiar Sam Adams logo.

/Don

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Date: Wed, 18 Dec 91 09:21:21 EST
From: bkelley at pms001.pms.ford.com ( Brian Kelley )
Subject: Re: Liquid Starters


John DecCarlo (m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org) writes:

>The Wyeast liquid yeast packets recommend a starter of 1.020 SG
>wort.  No mention is made of hops, though.  I don't know of any
>good reason to put hops in your starter, but there might be some.

Papazian suggests bittering hops to help inhibit bacterial growth.  I don't
know how much it really helps though.



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 18 Dec 91 9:17:36 EST
From: gkushmer at Jade.Tufts.EDU
Subject: Jim Koch on the radio


This morning as I was driving in (details of which might find their
way to alt.peeves at some point) WFNX in Lynn had Jim Koch on the
radio.  

For the past several days, FNX has been "giving away" slots for this tour
they will be taking of the Jamaica Plain brewery, so having Koch in was
part of the big promo and hype.

I wish I could tell you that this was an interview laden with introspective,
detailed questions.  But it wasn't.

A few points of interest (and don't flame the messenger please): 

Koch says that Sam Adams is still technically a micro-brewery but that
it is the "biggest pygmy" in the forest.

Koch says he is the 6th oldest son in a row (through the generations) to be
a brewer.  

When describing the taste of Sam Adams, he said some people might find it
too heavy but that everyone "grows up" eventually.  

He also said that the worst that could happen is that ifthe brewery failed
and went broke he'd wind up with having free beer for the rest of his
life.  I'd like to know how that works out.

And, the last thing I remember, is that he says Sam Adams brews in three 
locations: Boston for the East, Pittsburgh for the Midwest, and Oregon
for the West.  He does this so that the beer may be fresh - he wants it
to be delivered no more than 24 hours after it's finished.  If this is 
true, I wonder how he gets it to Japan (where he says it is sold over
TV)?


- --gk

==============================================================================

We're not hitchiking anymore - we're riding!
			-Commander Hoeke 
- ----------------------------
gkushmer at jade.tufts.edu
- ----------------------------

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Date: Wed, 18 Dec 91 10:21:14 EST
From: otten at cs.wm.edu (John Otten)
Subject: Another Bottle Filling Technique

With all of the various methods of bottle filling discussed lately, I have
yet to see the method that I use. So, here is another one...

I do both the primary and secondary fermentations in the plastic bucket
(i.e. I pitch the yeast and let it sit for a week or two). When it comes
time to bottle, I boil up some water with priming sugar (about a pint of
water with 3/4 sugar) and then add another pint of water to cool it a bit.
I pour this solution into a 5 gallon plastic water bag (like we used to carry
water in on camping trips) -Sanitized of course- and then siphon the beer
in after it. It seems that the siphon action mixes the priming solution
with the rest of the wort ok.  Then, I attach a spigot to the opening in the
bag (it usually comes with one), and fill the bottles. Every now and then
(every three or four batches) I need to add some air to the bag as I get
towards the end to help with the flow, but not every time I bottle. I do this
by tilting the bag so the wort is away from the spigot and then just opening
it.

I didn't come up with this idea. It was suggested to me by the store that
sold my first beer making kit. As the bag and spigot were only about
$3.00, I went for it. It works well for me...

John
otten at cs.wm.edu
or 
otten at icase.edu



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Date: Wednesday, 18 December 1991 10:21am ET
From: joshua.grosse at amail.amdahl.com
Subject: Cuisinart pasta machine


With all the discussion of using pasta makers for grain mills, and the latest
discussion of Corona and other mills instigated by my attempts at using a
coffee grinder, I thought I'd add in my own comments.  I've got a Cuisinart
pasta extruder attachment.  It uses the food processor motor to drive a feed
screw, like the Corona, to force the pasta through extrusion plates.  The
thing came with six plates to make a wide variety of pasta.

All I need is a way to fabricate the business end of a grain mill that could
be fastened to the pasta machine.  The hopper could hold about 1.5 lbs of
malt.  Any suggestions?

- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Josh Grosse                                jdg00 at amail.amdahl.com
Amdahl Corp.                               313-358-4440
Southfield, Michigan

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Date:    Wed, 18 Dec 1991 10:51:39 -0500 (EST)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: Big time bitter

   I've got a brew that has such a bitter finish that it's virtually
undrinkable, and I *like* bitter.  It has one 3.3 lb. can of hopped
extract, and about 15AAU of whole hops, with 1.5 oz of 9.6 AAU hops
steeped for 3 minutes.  So it should be somewhat bitter, but this is
something else!  The beer smells somewhat young, but not "off".  It
starts somewhat sweet, has normal carbonation, tastes fine, but then WHAM!
you get his intense bitter flavor that sticks on your tongue for hours!
It's not really like a normal hops bitter flavor either; it's not crisp,
it's heavy.  One odd thing is that it's taken a month for the bottles
to clear; usually they clear in a week or so.  Clearing hasn't had any
effect on the bitterness.  The hops were not really fresh, but they didn't
seem bad either.  The ferment with Whitbread dry yeast went normally. There
are no indications of any infection, unless that's what this bitterness is
all about.  

  So what gives?

Russ

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Date:     Wed Dec 18 10:57:07 1991
From: "William F. Pemberton" <wfp5p at euclid.acc.Virginia.EDU>
Subject:  More on Chillers



With the different designs for chillers showing up, I figured I'd share
my experiences for another data point.

The counterflow chiller that I use is made from 3/8" OD copper tubing
inside a 3/4" ID garden hose.  There is about 20 feet of copper tubing
in this thing.

I have never had a problem with clogging and this thing is FAST.  The
way I currently brew involves transferring the hot wort from the first floor
down to basement level.  The drop is about 10 feet, so the flow rate is
very high.  This chiller has no problems dropping the wort from boil to
less then 70 degrees.  The total transfer time is usually in the 10-15
minute range.

Bill

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Date: Wed, 18 Dec 91 10:51:21 EST
From: tix!roman at uunet.UU.NET (Daniel Roman)
Subject: Immersion wort cooler

I'm in the process of aquiring parts to make an immersion wort chiller
and wanted to get some opinions on materials for the coil.  I plan on
using garden hose compatible fittings on entry and exit but have been
pondering whether to use copper or brass tubing.  Brass should be easier
to keep clean but will be more expensive.  Any opinions?  (Silly
question to ask from this group! :-)

_____________________________________________________________________
Dan Roman           |     ///          Internet:  roman_d at timplex.com
Timeplex Inc.       | \\\///              GEnie:  D.ROMAN1
Woodcliff Lake, NJ  |  \XX/ Only AMIGA!      Homebrew is better brew.
=====================================================================

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Date: Wed, 18 Dec 91 11:17:35 -0500
From: steve at endgame.gsfc.nasa.gov
Subject: Re: Be gyled 


C.R. Saikley sez...

> >From: hays at voodoo.physics.ucsb.edu
> 
> >I have a question regarding Kraeusening my medium to heavy bodied ales.  I
> >tried this on my last batch using the formula outlined in Papazian. 

[snip]

> 
> I've been using this method for 4-5 years now, and have found that 
> although CP's formula has its limitations, it's pretty good.  

[ snip snip ]

> Now, what this formula fails to account for, is that not all 1.040
> worts are created equal. The ratio of fermentables to nonfermentables
> varies considerably, and thus the amount of carbonation varies also.
> 
> If one were so inclined, a formula could be developed based on both
> OG (original gravity) and TG (terminal gravity), which gets around
> this problem, but has some of its own. To determine the amount of gyle

A while back I made a "graphic aid" which allowed me to select the 
proper ammount of wort to save based on desired CO2 pressure and O.G. 
without having to crank through the math every time I wanted to brew. I 
didn't make any allowance for % fermentables (that would take another 
axis :-), but I suppose that it wouldn't be hard to include such data and 
make a nomograph, sort of like:

                      % fermentables
	 |                                       |
	 |                                       |
	 |               /      /   /            |
	 |              /      /   /             |
Atm.     |             /      /   /              |	Orig. Gravity
pressure |            /      /   /               |
         |           /      /   /                |

              (quantity along the lines)

I'll tinker with it sometime over the coming week or two, and if I can 
come up with a really nice looking graph, I'll make the PostScript available 
somehow.

I derived my "numbers" from Noonan, BTW, and although I don't have them 
handy to make a comparison, they seem pretty much in agreement with what
other people have been reporting. [read that: " I did it right" :-) ]
My latest batch of 80-weight only needed 1 pint/five gallons, but I "keg"
so the required pressure is lower. 

Steve Rezsutek

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Date: Wed, 18 Dec 91 11:31:12 -0500
From: bradley at adx.adelphi.edu (Robert Bradley)
Subject: Chicago beers

Talk about Chicago beers in #784:

Berghoff's is a big and boistrous German restaurant in the Loop.  No
trip to Chicago would be complete without a lunch at the Berghoff before
or after a visit to the Art Institute (two blocks away).  They have their
"own" beer, brewed under licence by Heilemann's to the north in Wisconsin. 
It's available on draught in the restaurant and in the bottle at many
local stores.  I recall regular and dark...maybe bock is seasonal, maybe
a synonym for dark.  At any rate, Norm is correct, and perhaps a trifle
too generous, wehn he describes it as "good, but not great".  Like
Augsburger (also from Wisconsin) and the Lowenbrau brewed under licence
by you-know-who, Berghoff beers claim to be old-world style but are
actually a compromise, having more body than North American beers but
neither the bitterness nor the purity of German lagers.  And yes, they
do taste mass produced.  Save your money.

Baderbrau [umlaut over the second 'a'], to my limited knowledge, was the
first micro in the Chicago area.  They seem to have opened up shortly
before I moved there in Sept. 1989.  Their basic lager is pretty damn
good.  I would compare it to Sam Adams lager (it seems it's once again
OK to admit that I drink the stuff from time to time).  Probably better
than Sam Adams, IMHO, when it's fresh.  Full-bodied, all grain, penty
of hallertuaer hops.

Cheers,
Rob (bradley at adx.adelphi.edu)

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Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1991 08:37:29 -0800
From: krweiss at ucdavis.edu
Subject: wet roller mill

Kinney Baughman writes:

>Your allusion to 'wetware' caused me to think about the possibility of 
>using the pasta machine as a wet-mill roller.  Wet-mills are touted as 
>the best possible solution to the mill problem.  They crush the 
>grains while generating absolutely no powder.  Conjecture tells me 
>that the wet grains would be 'tackier' and would pass through the 
>smoother rollers of the pasta machine.  That could save roughing up 
>the rollers so that the machine could still serve that function.  It's 
>probably easier on the machine anyway. 

I don't think you could still use the pasta machine for pasta if you did
this. You'd have to clean up with water. Apparently, if you get a pasta
machine wet the noodle dough will stick to it for years after. I dunno why,
but you're supposed to clean those things by just waiting for the bits of
dough to harden, and brushing them clean.

- -------------------------------------------
Ken Weiss               krweiss at ucdavis.edu
Computing Services      916/752-5554
U.C. Davis              916/752-9154 (fax)
Davis, CA 95616


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Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1991 11:46:49 -0500 (EST)
From: Peter Glen Berger <pb1p+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Hops and bacteria

I tend to use mostly hop plugs, but these can be inconvenient for
things like making starters.  Question:  Do hop *pellets* have the
same bacteria inhibiting effects as fresh hops?

Thanks.

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pete Berger		       ||  ARPA:     peterb at cs.cmu.edu
Professional Student	       ||            Pete.Berger at andrew.cmu.edu
Univ. Pittsburgh School of Law ||  BITNET:   R746PB1P at CMCCVB
Attend this school, not CMU    ||  UUCP: ...!harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!pb1p
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Goldilocks is about property rights.  Little Red Riding Hood is a tale
 of seduction, rape, murder, and cannibalism."  -Bernard J. Hibbits
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Date:    Wed, 18 Dec 1991 8:54:18 PST
From: BREIN at dsfvax.jpl.nasa.gov
Subject: Bottle Fillers

When siphoning into bottles I merely hold the flexible vinyl tubing with a pair
of needle-nosed pliers.  These serve to hold the tube and modulate the flow.
The only improvement I can think of would be to add a foot or so of rigid tube
to the end of the vinyl.  This would make it easier to transfer the tube between
bottles.

Barry Rein
BREIN at gpvax.jpl.nasa.gov

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Date: Wed, 18 Dec 91 12:32:45 +0000
From: Dave Coombs <coombs at bashful.cup.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Kraeusening 

>> The Details:  Extract/Mash recipe with I.G.=1.040 , Edme ale yeast, 
>> two weeks in closed plastic fermenter, racked and bottled with 1.4 quarts 
>> of gyle.

I can't speak directly about kraeusening with gyle.  I have primed
cider and cyser with sweet cider, and your numbers are approx in line
with what I calculated to achieve the same weight sugar as 3/4 C corn
sugar (5 oz I think) assuming that all weight in excess of the weight
of water was due to sugar.  I used 5 C of 1.045 cider (modulo memory
lapse) for 5 gals.  It worked reasonably well, though it was a wee bit
less carbonated than I had hoped, but this is exacerbated by the lack
of body remaining after Champ. yeast have done their worst.  The
assumption of all excess weight being fermentable is generally less
reasonable for wort.  I prime beers with dry malt extract rather than
corn sugar (due to allergic friends) and I usually use about 1-1.5 C
for ales, and they seem to carbonate more slowly.  Others have
said here that gyle works better than dry malt ext.

	dave

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Date: Wed, 18 Dec 91 10:49:32 MST
From: bill at baku.eece.unm.edu
Subject: Re: distilled water and beer


   Rick writes:
   >I can get a glass carboy from my local water distributer for $7.
   >The carboy comes filled with distilled water.  Can I use this water
   >for making beer?  I am an extract/specialty grain brewer (ales, stouts...).

   Then korz at ihlpl.att.com writes:
   >Yes.  Plain and simple.  Since you aren't mashing, you don't have to
   >worry about pH, minerals, etc.  .... The bottom line is, you can use
   >distilled water for extract brewing, but you may want to
   >optionally add minerals to taste.

I both agree and disagree with this comment.  I used distilled water
for a long time, and I found that I was consistantly ending up with
high final gravities.  For example, for an O.G. of 1.040, I'd finish
at 1.022!  When I switched to tap water, this problem went away...
thus I am assuming the distilled water was the problem.  I figure
there just isn't enough nutrients in distilled water to keep the yeast
going for very long.  Whether or not there are suffient nutrients in
your extract I suppose depends on the extract.  Apparently the
extracts I used were not sufficient (I don't recall what those brands
were right now...).  So, I'm convinced that if you are going to use
distilled water you should add nutrients --- not just for taste, but
for proper fermentation.

 -Bill

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Date:         Wed, 18 Dec 91 14:15:33 EST
From: Tom Dimock <RGG at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:      Christmas Beer

The Living Section of the 12/18/91 New York Times has an article
about seasonal beers, including short reviews of the more commonly
available offerings.

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Date: 18 Dec 91 14:27:58 EST
From: Jeff Frane <70670.2067 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Contract Sam Adams

To CR Saikley: Your experience with Blitz-Weinhard is pretty
typical, I think, of conctract brewing in general. BW in fact
makes a lot of beers that don't have BW's name on them, including
Tuborg and a bunch of cheapos. They don't talk about those either,
although the Brewmaster told our club tour about them. I got the
same blank looks you did years ago at the Olympia brewery when I
asked about Smith & Reilly, which they contract-brewed. I guess
their attitude is that it's not really *their* beer.  Who knows,
they might have an inferiority complex about their own beer.


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Date:         Wed, 18 Dec 91 14:49:46 EST
From: marc julian <CMSMARC at uga.cc.uga.edu>

Greetings and salutations...

FREE BEER!!!!!!!!

now that I have your attention...  I just received my first brew kit in the
mail today...  I'm looking for advice, support, warnings.. etc...  It seems
that much of the discussion on this list is about advanced topics... (eg.
yeast culturing, counterflow chiller).... how much of this should I be
concerned with...

I received all malt kits for a pale ale and a dark beer....  any advice on
which to start with...


thank you in advanced for any response.. - you can reply directly to me

at:  CMSMARC at uga or respond via the list...

I'm going to lock myself in a room and read all my available literature
about brewing...

marc julian

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Date: Wed, 18 Dec 91 15:04:41 -0500
From: zentner at ecn.purdue.edu (Michael Zentner)
Subject: bottling wands


The topic is back, and I'd thought I'd cast one opinion of dissent.
I don't think these are a miracle tool.  I don't like using a
spigoted bucket for bottling because of sanitation hassles incurred
by always having to take the spigot off.  I don't even like using
a plastic bucket for bottling because of sanitation worries.  My
bottling wand does not form a perfect seal when it's supposed to
be "off".  There is as much, if not more aeration with the use of
the wand by the initial rush into the bottle than there is with my
siphoning technique.

I simply like to have a spare carboy around where I can combine the
wort and priming solution and siphon from there into the bottles.  This
way, the only plastic used is the siphon, which I am much less apt
to scratch than the bucket or spigot.  The speed for bottling is
about the same either way.  I used the wand for 3 or 4 batches
before I decided to nix the idea.

That said, I'm not saying that because you use a wand your're doing
anything wrong.  I'm just saying that not everyone thinks it's such
a great idea, and bottling by both methods can be equally as efficient.

Mike Zentner   zentner at ecn.purdue.edu

PS- Maybe I feel this way because I never have lost a siphon.
PPS- If anyone wants directions on how I built my garden hose
     chiller, email me and I'll send you details...free of charge :-)

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Date: Wed, 18 Dec 91 15:05:21 EST
From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu>
Subject: Comments on The Video Review


Haven't seem the video myself. Jack wouldn't send me or our club one :-(

>I don't know about other brewers, but I stay away from wooden spoons, as is 
>seen in the video. A stainless steel spoon, or even plastic would be better.
>Who knows what is hiding in the porous wood!

What difference does it make if the spoon only touches boiling wort??
I always use a wooden spoon to stir my wort, never a problem. Of course
once the boil ends the spoon never touches the beer again.


 - JaH


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Date: Wed, 18 Dec 91 13:03:22 PST
From: "John Cotterill" <johnc at hprpcd.rose.hp.com>
Subject: Auto Mash (Tun)
Full-Name: "John Cotterill"

Has anyone ever used the 'Auto Mash' mashtun advertised in Zymurgy?  I would
be interested in any experiences you would care to share.  It seems to me
that Zymurgy did a product review (I don't remember when, and can't find the
issue).  I think they gave it a pretty good review, although I think it was
quite expensive to purchase.
Thanks,
JC
johnc at hprpcd.rose.hp.com

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Date: Wed, 18 Dec 91 11:59:12 PST
From: pierce at chips.com (John Pierce)
Subject: Yeast propagation forever??


I was talking to the chief assistant brewer at my local brewpub the other
night, and he told me that they have been re-pitching their yeast directly
from one batch to the next for well over 200 batches now.  They brew 217
gallon batches, using open primary fermentors (brewing a range of lagers)
and "just throw a bucketload of yeast from the last batch into the next.

I have NEVER had a contaminated or otherwise off-tasting beer in this
establishment in the 5 years they've been brewing.  (couple of times a 
couple of years ago, their beer was under-carbonated, but thats the ONLY
flaw I've ever noticed).

They are brewing continuously, I guess that helps keep the strain consistant.
Also, he said they only use the yeast from their regular amber and lager's,
and not anything from any of the specialty's (stouts, barleywines, etc).

john r pierce


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Date:         Wed, 18 Dec 91 16:44:07 EDT
From: DOBRES%DUVM at pucc.PRINCETON.EDU
Subject:      life-jackets and snorkels

Greg Roody writes that top fermenting yeast wear yellow life-jackets and bottom
 fermenting yeast have wet suits with snorkels. Snorkels! I find this surprisin
g - Fermentation does not require the presence of oxygen. Besides, at that dept
h I would have thought scuba-tanks or mini-subs would have been more appropriat
e.

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Date: Wed, 18 Dec 91 16:03 PDT
From: CRAIGP%H2VX1 < at relay.hp.com, at ada3.ca.boeing.com:CRAIGP at H2VX1.boeing.com>
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #784 (December 18, 1991)



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Date: Thu, 19 Dec 91 12:37:25 EST
From: gregg at maddog.anu.edu.au (michael gregg)
Subject: cancellation

Please remove my name from the mailing list.

Michael Gregg


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #785, 12/19/91
*************************************
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