HOMEBREW Digest #794 Fri 03 January 1992
Digest #793
Digest #795
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Re: Fermentation times versus vessel size (William Munson)
Mash tun spigots (Bill Slack)
Comments on Beer Hunter Comments (stevie)
oxidation (Brian Bliss)
Slug Bait (b11!mspe5!guy)
cidery beer ("Knight,Jonathan")
Re: More on Oxidation (Jay Hersh)
beer tasting in WI ("KATMAN.WNETS385")
Melanoidins and Oxidation (C.R. Saikley)
Pub in Arlington, VA (just outside of DC) (Greg J. Pryzby)
Re: Homebrew Digest #789 (December 25, 1991) (Matt Ammann)
bitter,hops,spree (Russ Gelinas)
oxygenating wort (Bob Devine 02-Jan-1992 1504)
pale ale idea (Aaron Birenboim)
culturing media (Aaron Birenboim)
mash procedure for the picnic-cooler mash tun (Aaron Birenboim)
Spigots (stevie)
In Search of Spigotry
Steinbarts Has Moved. (Stephen E. Hansen)
Send submissions to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues!]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 31 Dec 91 18:38:27
From: William.Munson at p0.f242.n260.z1.fidonet.org (William Munson)
Subject: Re: Fermentation times versus vessel size
By: shenton at cpstnd3.alliant.com (Chris Shenton)
> I've done a few wheat beers semi-recently and noticed something odd in
> the last 2-3 batches. I did 10 gallon batches, then split into two
> carboys, one a 5-gallon, the other a 7-gallon. The larger one -- which
> was not filled all the way to the top -- finished in a week or so as
> usual. The smaller, filled all the way up to the neck, is on it's
> third week.
> Any ideas? Thanks.
I have seen this effect before. I think it is not related to the size of the vessel but to the amount of headspace in the vessel. I think when you fill the vessel to the neck you remove the trapped air (oxygen) used by the yeast during the first stage of fermentation. This limits the total population to a value lower than optimum and the fermentation takes longer.
This is only my opinion, I have no proof other than shining a flashlight thru the fermenting wort (glass fermenter) to gauge it's opaqueness as a measure of yeast count. Ok guys, rip this one apart! :-)
Cheers!
William Munson
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Date: Wed, 1 Jan 92 09:51:43 EST
From: wslack!wrs at mv (Bill Slack)
Subject: Mash tun spigots
Martin Lodahl asks about a better spigot for his mashing cooler:
The best solution I found was to go to a RV store (Winnebagos, etc.) and
get a plastic tap of the right diameter. Take your old one with you.
You may need to use the existing nut and washer since they tend to sell
bare taps. But the one I found fits my 5 gallon Igloo and 64 quart
Igloo perfectly and works fine. RV stores have lots of plastic items
because they resist travel vibration better than metal in some cases.
Happy New Year everyone!
- --
Bill Slack wslack!wrs at gozer.mv.com uunet!mv!gozer!wslack!wrs
- --
Bill Slack wslack!wrs at gozer.mv.com uunet!mv!gozer!wslack!wrs
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Date: Thu, 2 Jan 92 10:49:16 CST
From: stevie at spss.com
Subject: Comments on Beer Hunter Comments
As Mike Zentner as Al Korz have observed, Michael Jackson was clearly not
preaching to the converted in the "Beer Hunter." For the uninitiated,
particularly in the US market, the series is a great introduction to the
wide variety of beer styles. It is also a nice travelogue, which is probably
why he was able to get it produced and broadcast.
While I agree with some of the criticism appearing here, the "Beer Hunter" is
still worth watching, and buying, I might add. Why not simply tape it? Good
question, Jack. The reason is that the Discovery Channel is a commercial
operation. If you want to tape the series, you have to edit out the commer-
cials. If you're taping as you're watching, this means you have to SIT through
the commercials. The first runnings (har har) of the series were post-midnight
Central Time. Sitting through all the ads for 900 party lines was far worse
than watching the "fluffy" parts of the series (with suitable background music
from Copeland or Dvorak or whoever).
And that's not all. The Discovery Channel also falls prey to the three most
miserable words -- Edited For Television. Before the series was televised, I
was able to see a pre-screening courtesy of a journalist friend. When I then
taped and viewed the series off Discovery (yeah, Jack, I thought of that, too),
I realized that many scenes I had remembered were missing. No doubt Discovery
did some editing to fit it into its half-hour time slot. I broke down, ordered
the tapes, and got the scenes back. So, if you cough up the dough and buy
"Beer Hunter," you can be confident in the knowledge that you'll get more
footage for your bucks.
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Date: Thu, 2 Jan 92 11:49:16 CST
From: bliss at csrd.uiuc.edu (Brian Bliss)
Subject: oxidation
> a. Keep as much oxygen as possible away from the wort while it is hot.
> b. Cool the wort as quickly as possible, still keeping oxygen away.
> c. Add oxygen (aeriate) to the wort only when it reaches pitching temp.
> d. Pitch yeast as soon after this as possible.
> e. A yeast starter would probably help, since more active cells would
> be introduced to the wort. These would scavange the molecular oxygen
> from the wort more quickly, reducing the number of molecules
> available to contribute to the oxidation process.
I agree with all these points (except for possibly d - I wait until
I've siphoned the wort off the hot break when using a quick starting
yeast - read whitbread).
> As the wort cools, does the oxygen come out of solution leaving the
> wort cold, lonely, and tainted?
No, but the wort loses O2 when it boils, so the wort needs to be
re-oxygenated.
My question is the following: Consider the popular extract boiling
setup, where you boil 3 or so gallons of wort, and then dump the
whole thing (while hot) through a strainer to remove the hops and
foreign particles into a funnel and finally, into a carboy with
around 2 gal. of cold water in it (containing a lot of O2, unless
you boiled it first). Will this oxidize the wort? Does the oxidation
occur while the wort passes through the strainer and funnel, or
or only when the hot wort hits the surface of the water in the carboy,
and foams up? Will the hot wort mixing with the cold oxygenated water
oxidize the wort, or is this only a result of the inadvertent splashing
that takes place? (i.e. should I boil the water in the carboy?)
Should I cool the wort with a chiller down to 150F or so and then
proceed as usual? Should I make 5 gal. and cool it all down to 80F?
bb
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Date: Thu, 2 Jan 92 9:21:21 CST
From: ingr!b11!mspe5!guy at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Slug Bait
I'm posting this question for a friend:
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't make home brew, but I will readily drink any that my
colleagues at work will give me. There are about a dozen people
in my building that do, and most subscribe to HBD. One HBD'er, Ron
Jolly, gave me some Christmas Ale that I thought was really good,
but unfortunately, my wife wasted one of the bottles by putting it
out in our garden of strawberry bushes to kill slugs (This was
several weeks back). I had told her that she could have a LITTLE
of the beer to do that with, but I meant AFTER I had drunk most of it.
She took that to mean she could pop open a bottle and take some off
the top, and when the bottle sat in the Fridge for a day or two, it
kind of went flat.
My question is this: What is it about beer that attracts slugs, and
what is it about beer that kills them?
There are no insinuations here about beer-drinkers belonging to the
molluscae family, or anything. I'm just really curious. Incidentally,
I have outlawed the use of home-brew for slug bait at the house now,
so if my wife wants to kill slugs, I'll go get a Miller pony.
Thanks,
Gary B.
- --
/*****************************************************************************/
"Gary Braswell...not just another tube." | Gary Braswell, Systems Engineer
--- J. C. McCormick, 19 Dec 91 | Intergraph Corp., MS CR1105, etc.
/*****************************************************************************/
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guy McConnell
"All I need is a pint a day"
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Date: Thu, 2 Jan 92 12:22:33 cdt
From: "Knight,Jonathan" <KNIGHTJ%GRIN1.bitnet at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: cidery beer
Help, help! Will someone come to the aid of a beginning (8 batches) extract
brewer? I remember reading something about "cidery" off-flavors in beer,
either probably in Papazian or in this digest, but I can't remember. Anyway,
I just brewed up a batch of beer that had a decidedly cidery (can you say
that?) aroma after fermentation was complete. I've never had this problem
before, but I did two things differently with this batch: (1) perhaps
inspired by the adventures of Father Barleywine and his disciples, I decided
just for fun to re-pitch some yeast from my previous batch; (2) I didn't have
the time to bottle this batch until after it had been fermenting for over a
month.
So, the questions are:
- does one suspect infection to be the cause of "cider"? (In this case I
would probably suspect my re-pitching to be the source and be more careful
[but not worry, of course] next time if I try it again)
- does beer get "Yucky" if you let it sit too long before bottling?
- does the "cidery" aroma go away? (I went ahead and bottled,
optomistically)
I'd appreciate any thoughts on my dilemma.
Jonathan
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Date: Thu, 02 Jan 92 14:02:10 EST
From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: More on Oxidation
Grumpy responds to my response to Thom M...
>While it's true that boiling drives off oxygen, Thomas was refering to
>oxidation occurring after steeping his grains, not boiling his wort.
>This solution wasn't boiled, and is not free of oxygen. Furthermore,
>all the splashing and pouring thru a strainer will re-introduce oxygen.
>I would encourage brewers to avoid splashing hot wort, regardless of
>whether it is the dense first runnings from an all grain mash, or a weak
>crystal malt "tea".
He was doing a partial mash with grains. This preceeds the boil, so working
under the assumption that the results of this partial mash get recombined with
the wort and then boiled (that's how I've always done it, how bout you Thom??)
then any oxygen introduced here will get boiled off...
If you don't boil the result of steeping your grains, what do you do with it????
I've never heard of anyone just doing a partial mash without boiling the
results, since this stuff never gets to 180F (typical sterilization temps)
you'd run a real risk of introducing contamination if you took these partial
mash results and combined them with post boil wort.
- JaH
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Date: Thu, 2 Jan 92 19:08 GMT
From: "KATMAN.WNETS385" <6790753%356_WEST_58TH_5TH_FL%NEW_YORK_NY%WNET_6790753 at mcimail.com>
Subject: beer tasting in WI
Date: 02-Jan-92 Time: 02:00 PM Msg: EXT02539
Hi folks,
This is a little early, but I'll forget it if I don't post it now. If you're
not from the Milwaulkee area, and don't plan to be there in April, then ignore
this please.
"The first Annual International Beer Tasting will be held Saturday evening,
April 4 at Mayfair Mall. A fund raiser for the Channel 10/36 Friends, the event
is co-chaired by Bev Greenberg and Howard Bornstein. Beer from around the world
and U.S. micro-breweries will be featured, as well as food items and live
music."
This is from the FINE TUNING magazine, put out by the Milwaulkee WI public
television stations. They list a phone number for viewer services as
414-278-1415. If they don't know what's going on they should be able to forward
you to someone who does. I am not associated with these stations (heck, I've
never even been to Wisconsin :) Drinking good beer and supporting Public
Television. Life can't get better than this! :)
Lee Katman == Thirteen/WNET == New York, NY
=Do not= use REPLY or ANSWERBACK, I can not receive mail in that fashion.
Please send all mail to
INTERNET katman.wnets385%wnet_6790753 at mcimail.com
OR
MCIMAIL EMS: wnet 6790753 MBX: katman.wnets385
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Date: Thu, 2 Jan 92 11:56:28 PST
From: grumpy!cr at uunet.UU.NET (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: Melanoidins and Oxidation
There have been a couple of postings lately suggesting that hop oils
were the only component in wort that is susceptible to oxidation, and
therefore unhopped wort is not. Only Martin Lodahl, bless him, pointed
out that wort melanoidins are vulnerable, which is consistent with the
discussion of oxidation found in George Fix's book.
Well brewers, hold on to your hats because melanoidins come from malt!
Yes, that's right, malty solutions can be oxidized even with no hops
present. Melanoidins are a result of the chemical marriage of proteins
to carbohydrates, a process usually called "carmelization". They may
taste sweet, but are definitely nonfermentable. Melanoidins are formed
during the kilning of malt, and are especially prevalent in crystal malts.
This is why crystal can add residual sweetness to beer. Darker beers tend
to have higher melanoidin content, and are therefore more easily bruised.
For a much more detailed look at the oxidation process, see GF's book,
which I believe is titled _Principles_of_Brewing_Science_.
Cheers,
CR
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Date: Thu, 2 Jan 92 15:00:34 EST
From: virtech!gjp at uunet.UU.NET (Greg J. Pryzby)
Subject: Pub in Arlington, VA (just outside of DC)
I have found a place that sells microbrews on tap for a reasonable price
(at least for the DC area.)
The Amdo (on Wilson Bvld between Edgewood and Fillmore) has quiet a few taps
and plans on brewing their own soon. They have Anchor Steam, Old Foghorn,
Anchor's Chistmas Ale, Tibetian Bigfoot, and quite a few more. They also
have fresh root beer on tap.
In interest of space, you can e-mail for further info.
I have no connection, but did enjoy the beer and music.
- --
Greg Pryzby uunet!virtech!gjp
Virtual Technologies, Inc. gjp at virtech
Herbivores ate well cause their food didn't never run. -- Jonathan Fishman
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Date: Thu, 2 Jan 92 13:15:18 PST
From: matt at fmdmfg1.intel.com (Matt Ammann)
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #789 (December 25, 1991)
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Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1992 16:38:56 -0500 (EST)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: bitter,hops,spree
A further report on my "Wicked Bitter Ale": It has Chinook hops, not
Centennial, as first reported. Others have reported similar over-bitterness
with Chinook hops, so they may be the culprit. Never again. It *is* getting
more drinkable.
My brother-in-law with the metal shop is doing business with a Polish
company. The Poles don't have hard currency to pay with, so they're paying
with *hops*! Yes, that's right. Don't know anything more about it than
that, but we're talking lots o' hops, which will be sold to US brewers.
The spree will have to wait....
Russ
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Date: Thu, 2 Jan 92 14:11:10 PST
From: Bob Devine 02-Jan-1992 1504 <devine at cookie.enet.dec.com>
Subject: oxygenating wort
Martin Lodahl writes:
> So in short, put plenty of air in the wort just before you pitch,
> but not at any other time.
To be pedantic, it is okay to also add oxygen after you pitch.
There is a period of several hours that it is okay to introduce
oxygen into the wort. However, it is somewhat tricky in that
the yeast won't transistion to the anaerobic phase as long
as oxygen is present.
In practice, the easiest and best behavior for a homebrewer is
to do as Martin says.
Bob Devine
[who just came back from a skiing vacation with 100 pounds of grain...]
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Date: Thu, 2 Jan 92 16:48:18 MST
From: abirenbo at isis.cs.du.edu (Aaron Birenboim)
Subject: pale ale idea
I plan to make a pale ale soon, and i would like some advise on my
all grain recipe.
I want a full-bodied, malty pale with a bit of fruityness.
I have heard that some WYEAST product produces a butterscutch ester.
Will this be a giid idea, .... if not which yeasts produce a fruity
flavor (a la newcastle).
I have heard of using brown sugar for newcastle or bass style
ales. However, will not molasses be a good way to develop that
character? If so... how much molasses should i try?
Should i develop body with cara-pils, malto dextrin, or crystal?
Should i use a combination of these? I immagine my hopping rate will
depend on these body agents... i.e. more hops if i am using a bunch
of crystal ... to balance the sweetness.
Victory malt.... said to impart a biscuit like flavor. Does this
sound good for a fruity bass-like pale ale?
Fruity molasses biscuits sound yummy to me.
aaron
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Date: Thu, 2 Jan 92 16:50:47 MST
From: abirenbo at isis.cs.du.edu (Aaron Birenboim)
Subject: culturing media
Would it be ok to use left over beer wort for culturing media,
or will the hops make for an inferior nutrient solution.
If so, to what S.G. should i dilute the wort for agar slants
and petri dishes?
aaron
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Date: Thu, 2 Jan 92 16:51:56 MST
From: abirenbo at isis.cs.du.edu (Aaron Birenboim)
Subject: mash procedure for the picnic-cooler mash tun
After reading Russ Pencin's mash procedure inspired by Dr. Lewis,
i amthinking of a new mash procedure for myself. My problem is that
i sue a picnic cooler mash/lauter tun, and mashing out at 170F will
be tricky, i cannot just turn up my heat source
Following is my proposed procedure, along with some questions,
please let me know what you think.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1) Strike dry grain with enough 160F water to bring mash to 153F.
Stir and let rest until conversion.
Q: if i am using a mess o adjunct (barley flakes, roast barley,
wheat, malted wheat, oats...) can i really get by without
a protein rest???
2) Add specialty grains
3) Mash out. I cannot just add boiling water here, since
It would take too much water to bring all that mash up to 170F.
I propose to drain off a galon or how ever much it takes of liquor,
bring it to a boil, and syphon it back in to raise mash temp to 170F.
I will determine the quantity by experiment.
Q: Is this a good idea? I figger that decoction mashers
boil part of the mash, so maybe i can get away with boiling
some liquor???
QQ: Is turbid liquor OK? I won't boil long, so i hope so. I
could recycle a bit of liquor and boil only clear stuff,
but that would be a pain in the butt, and carry a risk of
hot wort oxidation as i pout the turbid liquor back onto the
grain bed. I'd like to take this risk only at the sparge
if possible.
Note: syphoning liquor with the picnic cooler mash/lauter tun
is real easy. Just drain liquor through a tube in to
kettle. boil. Drain another few cc's into kettle.
Then lift kettle above mash-tun to syphon liquor back
into tun for mash-out. very little aeriation danger.
3) Allow mash to sit at 170F for about 10 min.
4) Recycle wort until clear, then drain into boiler until
liquor drips slowly.
5) syphon 170F water (~4 gal) into mash tun. stir vigorously.
then recycle run-off until clear again.
6) drain remaining liquid from lauter tun until it starts to drip,
then begin the boil.
aaron
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Date: Thu, 2 Jan 92 18:31:26 CST
From: stevie at spss.com
Subject: Spigots
Martin Lodahl <gueuze!mal at PacBell.COM> writes:
Subject: In Search of Spigotry
> ...My dear wife gave me an insulated water cooler for Christmas, but I'll be
> DAMNED if I'll stand there holding that <CENSORED> button in for the whole
> sparge! Anybody have any ideas where I might find a suitable tap? The drum
> taps I've always used are just too big for the hole in the cooler, and
> enlarging that seems a dubious proposition, at best. Suggestions?
I converted an insulated Igloo cooler last year and successfully hooked up a
standard drum tap. I enlarged the hole after removing the <CENSORED> button
tap by doing some careful reaming with a power drill. The hole is not threaded,
so just ream it gradually until the drum tap can get through. Make sure the fit
is tight. Tighten well, using the usual rubber washer and plastic nut. You
can remove it, clean it, and replace it at will.
It may seem dubious -- certainly not the height of brewing geekitude -- but this
sucker has survived some 20 brews without leaking or any other problem.
Steve Hamburg (stevie at spss.com)
SPSS Inc, Chicago
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Date: Thu, 02 Jan 92 21:49:06 -0800
From: Stephen E. Hansen <hansen at gloworm.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Steinbarts Has Moved.
I spent Christmas week with my wife's relatives in Portland Ore. and
in addition to it's numerous excellent Brewpubs and Microbreweries
Portland also has a very fine homebrew supply store, the F.H. Steinbart
Co. It had been a while since I was there but the December issue of
the Celebrator (A California based beer paper) had the address in a
special Pacific Northwest section. Well, that was their old address,
their new one is
The F.H Steinbart Co.
234 S.E. 12th
Portland, OR
(503) 232-8793
BTW. They also have BTF Idophor in 4oz bottles.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stephen E. Hansen - hansen at sierra.Stanford.EDU | "The church is near,
Electrical Engineering Computer Facility | but the road is icy.
Applied Electronics Laboratory, Room 204 | The bar is far away,
Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305-4055 | but I will walk carefully."
Phone: +1-415-723-1058 Fax: +1-415-725-7298 | -- Russian Proverb
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1992 20:55 EST
From: Frank Tutzauer <COMFRANK at ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu>
Subject: keg questions
I must be getting serious about this hobby because I've decided to shell out
the money for a kegging system. I went back through all my old HBDs and read
the stuff on kegging that I had foolishly ignored the first time through.
Unfortunately, I've still got a few questions, so here goes:
First, on the difference between pin-lock and ball-lock. I know that one
means Coke and one means Pepsi. Other than this, is there a major difference?
Both Foxx and Alternative Beverages will supply either, and there doesn't seem
to be a cost difference. Is one trickier than the other? Easier? More
difficult to replace or get parts for? Better? Worse? Other than the fact
that I prefer Coke to Pepsi, I don't have any basis for choosing between them.
Second, I haven't (yet) gotten a second fridge--although I've been scanning
the want ads (got to have something to lager in, right?). Consequently, I'm
looking towards one of those cooler gadgets that cools the beer in-line. Alt.
Bev. doesn't sell them, and Foxx wants (yowch!) $137.50 (U.S.) for a one-
tapper and $177.29 for a two-tapper. Obviously, I will be building my own. I
mean, geez, it's just a cheap cooler, a tap, and something for heat transfer.
My two references on on building one are a piece by Jim Carroll in the gadgets
special issue of zymurgy, and an article by Teri Fahrendorf in the Fall 1991
issue. Jim uses copper, which seems to me to be easiest and cheapest, but
Teri says to use stainless steel because copper will "react with beer and
cause oxidation if it sits in the coils" (p. 39). Now...there will rarely be
a day that I don't drink some homebrew, but certainly the beer will be sitting
around overnight, and I'll be dadgummed if I'm going to clean the lines every
night. OTOH, stainless steel is probably harder to work with and more
expensive to boot. So what's the deal? Will the beer really react with the
copper? Also, I've heard about aluminum plates or something. Is this an
alternative I'm missing? What should I do?
Finally, I'm thinking of getting a counter-pressure bottle filler. Foxx sells
the counter-pressure bottle filler for $21.75, but I don't think this comes
with the appropriate tubing, which is another $12.25. Again, this sounds kind
of pricey to me. In the Summer 1991 issue of zymurgy, Dan Fink has an article
about counter-pressure transfer, but this is keg-to-keg, rather than keg-to-
bottle. It looks easy enough and cheap enough to build on your own, but what
should I do to modify it so that it will fill bottles instead of kegs?
Well, thanks. If there's anything else you think a new kegger should know
about, let me know.
later,
- --frank
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End of HOMEBREW Digest #794, 01/03/92