FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  BBK tour responses (Sgt John "iceberg" Bergmann)
  Kvass, anyone? (Fritz Keinert)
  Priming sugar (gkushmer)
  To Rinse or Not (joshua.grosse)
  Roto Kegs (Scott Bickham)
  Oils in "Three Passions Stout" (JW Smith)
  hydrometer calibration (James Dee)
  Re:  Homebrew Digest #816 (February 04, 1992) (Frosty D. Snowman)
  Coffee in beer (again) (ingr!b11!mspe5!guy)
  Beer Across America (Bill Crisafulli)
  Hot & Cold Break Galore ("John Cotterill")
  Re: EXPLODING KEG (Bruce T. Hill)
  NA Beer by Boiling; CO2 & EtOH (Fred Condo)
  Encouraging diacetyl (Conn Copas)
  It really *is* Beer Across America! (ingr!b11!mspe5!guy)
  NA brew (CONNOLLY)
  B.A.B.O. & NA Beer from Micah Millsapw (Bob Jones)
  Re: Millet Beer (sic) (Brian Capouch)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Feb 92 10:35:14 GMT
From: Sgt John "iceberg" Bergmann <iceberg at sctc.af.mil>
Subject: BBK tour responses

Hello All,

In HOMEBREW Digest #816...

Volker Stewart <radavfs at ube.ub.umd.edu> writes:

>Fritz Keinert <keinert at iastate.edu> writes:

>>Kaiserslautern is pretty far from Bavaria. Are you sure it is not
>>"Badische Brauerei"? Baden (another region in Germany) is a lot
>>closer.

>Well, my guess is that the brewery is trying to imply some
>sort of quality - Bavaria is known around the world for its
>beer...

   That's not quite it.  Back some 170 years plus when the brewery was founded,
this part of Germany belonged to the Kingdom of Bavaria.  They tried to change
the name to something more regional in the early 1980's, but the locals were 
aghast that their beer heritage was being tampered with (that and sales dropped 
dramatically :-).

and then:
Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu> writes:

>This isn't however a ferment it is an aging (aka lagering), by the time it hits
>these cold cellars it should have done most if not all of it's fermenting.
 
  Yeah, you're right Jay.  They do the ferment in big inverted conical steel
thingies, then lager in (I think) wooden casks.  Not all the beer goes thru
this process.  Got typing faster than I was thinking....

  Also, they said they made Clausthaler, the Non-alcohol beer there.  This 
would mandate additional equipment that wasn't shown to us on the tour, so I'm
sure I missed out on a lot.  I think the language barrier played a big part.


  Happy Brewing,                                    'Pay your Taxes,
  Johnny B.                                          I need the money...'

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Date: Tue, 04 Feb 92 08:53:31 CST
From: Fritz Keinert <keinert at iastate.edu>
Subject: Kvass, anyone?

A friend of mine of Lithuanian descent told me about a drink they make
there for special occasions, based on fermented rye bread. Some time
later, I checked out a Russian cookbook from the library, and they
also mentioned a drink called "kvass" based on fermented bread. I
assume they were talking about the same thing. The cookbook did not
give any details.

Does anybody know more about this?
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fritz Keinert                             phone:  (515) 294-5223
Department of Mathematics                 fax:    (515) 294-5454
Iowa State University                     e-mail: keinert at iastate.edu
Ames, IA 50011

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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 92 9:52:15 EST
From: gkushmer at Jade.Tufts.EDU
Subject: Priming sugar


The other day I was going to bottle some Pale Ale I had brewed and went 
looking for my priming sugar.  These days, I have been using pure cane
sugar - Confectioners - for the priming (I haven't had any problems with
this).

Thing is that someone else in the house had used the sugar recently for 
baking (imagine that) and after rolling the dough in the sugar had put the
excess back in the box.  Of course, I learned this only once I saw the 
flaky gingerbread dough rolling in the boil.

Needing sugar FAST I went over to the sugar box and pulled out some 
granulated cane sugar and used that instead.  Now I know that both 
are cane sugar, but does it matter whether I'm using the extra-fine
confectioners powder or the granulated stuff?

Cheers.

- --gk

===============================================================================

"I have special place in my heart for the criminally insane, but YOU
 have worn out your welcome."   
					-The Tick-
- ----------------------------
gkushmer at jade.tufts.edu
- ----------------------------

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Date: Tuesday, 4 February 1992 10:16am ET
From: joshua.grosse at amail.amdahl.com
Subject: To Rinse or Not


Volker Stewart (radavfs at ube.ub.umd.edu) asked in #816 about why one should or
should not rinse with city water.  Fair question, since most of us drink and
cook and even brew with it.

I don't rinse, because my city water has a small amount of bacteria in it.  If
I rinse, I run the risk of infecting my beer witn E. Coli or a nitrifying
bacteria that might harm the taste of the beer over time.

Call your water company, and ask for a water analysis.  Along with the mineral
balance of the water, which you may find useful, look for bacterial counts.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Josh Grosse                                jdg00 at amail.amdahl.com
Amdahl Corp.                               313-358-4440
Southfield, Michigan

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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 92 10:48:09 -0500
From: bickham at msc2.msc.cornell.edu (Scott Bickham)
Subject: Roto Kegs


	I inherited a Roto Keg from someone who gave up brewing when he
got married ( sad, but true ).  I have never used it, but I am considering
that option for an upcoming party of ours.  My questions are:

	1.  Should I use the standard amount of corn sugar to prime,
	and then seal the top with a C02 cartridge?

	2.  How long should I condition the beer in the Roto Keg?

	3.  How long should I expect the C02 cartridge to last?

Thanks a million,
		Scott

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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 92 09:44 CST
From: jws3 at engr.uark.edu (JW Smith)
Subject: Oils in "Three Passions Stout"


If the recipe works, don't fool with it, right?

But I'm curious.  Would using straight cocoa powder eliminate the oil
problem from the chocolate?  I don't know much about chocolate or how
it's produced, but it seems that the cocoa powder would cause less
trouble than a block of unsweetened chocolate.

I'm looking forward to trying this recipe, whichever way I decide to go
on this...opinions, anyone?


|  James W. Smith, University of Arkansas  |        jws3 at engr.uark.edu       |
|  "Come with us, we'll sail the Seas of Cheese!"  -- Les Claypool  at  Primus  |
|  Neither NASA nor the U of Ark. is responsible for what I say. Mea culpa.  | 

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Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1992 11:15:22 EST
From: James Dee <dee at sbnuc1.phy.sunysb.edu>
Subject: hydrometer calibration

I have a fairly standard beer hydrometer - hollow glass tube with a lump of
lead or some other metal in the bottom and a scale inside.  It's supposed to be
accurate at 60F, and then there is a correction one makes for temperatures that
deviate from this.  I once saw a chart with this correction as a function of
temperature, but I haven't been able to find it since then.  Does anyone know
how properly to calibrate this instrument?

						--Jimmy Dee

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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 92 11:25:28 -0500
From: frosty at mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Frosty D. Snowman)
Subject: Re:  Homebrew Digest #816 (February 04, 1992)

cancel subscription to digest.  

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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 92 9:32:09 CST
From: ingr!ingr!b11!mspe5!guy at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Coffee in beer (again)

John R. Pierce writes:

> Guy McConnell mentions a "Monte Sano" blend of coffee that he used to brew a
> "mocha-java stout".   He sez he chose it cuz its a light blend.

    Well, actually I said that I used it because it was a mild blend.  It also
happened to be what I had in the house at the time.  While it certainly isn't
Peet's "roasted to within an inch of its life", it isn't a light roast either.
I would characterize it as a medium roast.  I did find out the blend;  it is
1/3 Peru, 1/3 Uganda, and 1/3 Santo Domingo (according to the lady I called).

> Why not use the real thing.  Mocha-Java as in Mocha Mattari (from Yemen)
> and Java Estate (from, uh, Java).  This is one of the finest and smoothest
> coffee blends ever.  It can be brewed VERY strong and stay smooth, yet is
> very tasty and delicate when brewed medium light.  

    Absolutely.  Why not indeed?  My recipe was intended to be a starting point
for anyone wanting to try this.  I named it Mocha-Java Stout because the word
"mocha" is often (and quite correctly) used to describe flavoring with 
chocolate and "java" is a rather widespread (if not universal) reference to
coffee in general.  It was a chocolate-coffee stout.  If there is one thing I
would change, it would be to add more Monte Sano or a more assertive coffee to
bring out that flavor a bit more.  I can barely detect the coffee aroma and 
taste myself but a friend who doesn't drink coffee said that he could detect it
quite plainly.  I would probably use Mocha-Java or Sumatra Mandheling if I 
brewed this again.  High quality Java Estate coffee has been rather scarce of
late though, making it hard to get a good Mocha-Java blend.

> Another side note, dark roasts seem to have a higher oil
> content in the brewed coffee than light roasts.   As I understand, you
> absolutely do NOT want to introduce any kinda oils in brewing as they
> oxidise easily (read "rancid!" |~< )

    This was one thing that I wanted to test in brewing this beer.  I was a
little concerned that the oils in the coffee and the chocolate would kill the
head but it has a beautiful, creamy head that lasts.  As for oxidation, it
hasn't a trace of it.  I am quite careful in handling my wort to minimize the
risk of this anyway.  Again, I recommend a brew like this to anyone who enjoys
the three flavors as much as I do.

- --
Guy McConnell
"Drinking homebrew from a wooden cup"


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Date: 04 Feb 92 12:36:22 EST
From: Bill Crisafulli <73750.2427 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Beer Across America

In HBD 814 Bill Dyer described Beer Across America.  I posted a message back
in December announcing the creation of this little club, so I thought I'd
also put in my two cents.
 
BAA is currently trying to work out a national distribution scheme.  UPS will
deliver within the state of Illinois but refuses to ship out of state.  They
are using an air service currently to get deliveries to most of the midwest
states, but want to cover the whole of "America" ASAP.  I'll post when things
get settled and let all know.
 
BAA is run by some friends of mine.  It is legit, they are handling the beer
well and using quality shipping materials.  The beer is ordered and delivered
directly to their location in IL.  They ship it out within a week of their
receipt.  The last shipment Bill described was their first, and out of 500
shipments only one had any breakage.
 
I agree that it would be great if they could handle additional orders when
someone finds a beer they like, but the old freshness problem rears its head.
Because the beers they are shipping are not generally available in normal
channels, they get a limited supply and thus they do not want to hold any
extra.  Further on down the road I expect them to offer some limited
offerings in this vein, but not right now.
 
I have no direct interest in this operation, other than writing an article in
the newsletter about beer.  Of course, I am getting compensated for that in
liquid form, but other than that this is all their baby!
 
Bill Crisafulli
       


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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 92 10:35:57 PST
From: "John Cotterill" <johnc at hprpcd.rose.hp.com>
Subject: Hot & Cold Break Galore
Full-Name: "John Cotterill"

If anyone doubts the formation of large quantities of break material in their
brew, believe it, the stuff is really there!  Generally, I brew and ferment
in stainless containers so there is no way of seeing whats at the bottom, 
unless I rack my brew.  And with pellet hops and busy yeast, its hard to say 
what else is at the bottom of any particular vessel.

I have just started culturing yeast.  As part of this experiment, I needed to
make up several batches of sterile starter wort.  I did this by first adding 
some malt extract to some boiling water, adding some hops, and boiling 
the mixture for about 10 minutes.  I then filled some Mason jars with the 
wort and pressure cooked it for 15 minutes.  When I pulled the jars out, there
was a good 1/4 to 1/2 inch of break (hot and cold) at the bottom of the jar.
I was really surprised at how much stuff there really was!

JC  

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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 92 09:54:38 PST
From: dannet!bruce at uunet.UU.NET (Bruce T. Hill)
Subject: Re: EXPLODING KEG

This reminds me of an incident that occurred in 1981 (or thereabouts) at
a fraternity party.  A fraternity at Cal State Univ. Long Beach was having
a party and someone unknowingly over-pressurized a beer keg with CO2.
The keg exploded and killed one of the partygoers.  

I believe that this incident forced the keg makers to redesign the kegs
so that a pressure relief valve was added.  Is this true?  Are newer
kegs safer than the older ones?

Let's all be careful out there!

- ---
Bruce T. Hill          Danford Corp.               voice: (310) 514-9334 
Project Manager        350 W. 5th St.              FAX:   (310) 831-0454
uunet!dannet!bruce     San Pedro, CA 90731 USA

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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1992 11:44 PST
From: Fred Condo <CONDOF at CGSVAX.CLAREMONT.EDU>
Subject: NA Beer by Boiling; CO2 & EtOH

I have tasted beer made non-alcoholic by boiling. The maker of the
stuff is highly sensitive to alcohol, and couldn't drink the stuff
if her method didn't work. Steve Stroud's comments on the 95:5
alcohol:water distillation product exactly gibes with my faint
recollections from college chemistry. It is also why you can't
buy liquor higher than 190 proof. Pure ethanol has to be made by
means other than distillation.

pierce at pyramid.pyramid.com (John R. Pierce) asks about Co2 and 
ethanol. You seem to be a little unclear here... There isn't a
CO2-producing versus an alcohol-producing version of fermentation.
Under anaerobic conditions, yeast split each glucose molecule
into equal proportions of carbon dioxide and ethanol.

Thus, you blow off the CO2 in fermentation, but TRAP the CO2 from
your priming sugar by sealing the bottle or keg. For each molecule
of CO2 produced in carbonation, you get one of alcohol, so priming
does marginally increase the alcohol content of the beer. MARGINALLY.

Summary:

		yeast
glucose         --->    2 carbon dioxide + 2 ethanol

Fred Condo | condof at clargrad.bitnet | condof at cgsvax.claremont.edu

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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 92 15:06:48 GMT
From: Conn Copas <C.V.Copas%lut.ac.uk at hplb.hpl.hp.com>
Subject: Encouraging diacetyl

Al advised that fining and racking towards the end of the primary is one means
of encouraging diacetyl, but then asks whether fining earlier in the primary
would do any harm. I don't have the answer myself, but have seen wine recipes
which advocate adding bentonite whilst pitching the yeast. It always seemed to
me that this might inhibit the ferment by preventing yeast circulation, but
possibly not. Presumably, botton fermenters would get 'buried' easier than
top fermenters ?


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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 92 12:14:22 CST
From: ingr!ingr!b11!mspe5!guy at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: It really *is* Beer Across America!

    A fellow Intergrapher just called me regarding my post yesterday about
"Beer Across America" not shipping to Alabama.  He said that his office mate
just got his first shipment.  So, the lady who answered the phone when I called
mislead me when she said that they only ship to the midwest.  I stand corrected
and I will call again to try and join.

- --
Guy McConnell
"Drinking Homebrew from a wooden cup"


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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 92 17:27 EST
From: CONNOLLY%RISVAX at CCNMR.MIT.EDU
Subject: NA brew

HBDers:

I've run a bit behind the journal but I'd like to comment on the NA 
thread and thank Steve S. (HBD #816) for hopefully ending this 
ridiculous discussion.  For those of you who claim to be experts on 
the subject and don't believe that Jack S.'s technique works I'd 
suggest you check your P. Chem. texts.  Mine (Atkins, 1978) gives H2O 
and ethanol as an example of a binary azeotrope, complete with a phase 
diagram, saving lots of calculations that can't really be done anyway.
The key is to realize that the deviation from Raults Law is due to 
hydrogen binding between H2O and EtOH. (Atkins, 1978, p. 230)

Also, if you check the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics you will 
look under binary azeotropes and see that the vapor will contain ca.
95% EtOH and ca. 5% H2O.  It only makes sense that at this rate you 
will eventually reach the point where the amount of EtOH in the pot is 
less then 0.5% and you've got real NA homebrew on your hands!

I wouldn't worry about the scientific method and cold fusion in this 
case Jack...these are experimentally verified facts that have been 
known for well over a hundred years.

Sorry to flame...I've got some useful info out of the Digest but 
sometimes the misinformation given out by those flaunting their 
education (I'll refrain) is really irritating.
			happy brewing   pc


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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1992 15:28 PDT
From: Bob Jones <BJONES at NOVA.llnl.gov>
Subject: B.A.B.O. & NA Beer from Micah Millsapw







        I would like to metion that the Bay area brewoff on January
25th went nicely. There were over 150 entries. there also were some
great prizes,ribbons ,cash,hops etc. The judges ( myself included)
were provided with some great food and beer after the event. In all
it was a lot of fun.



        N\A beer? Can you really do it at home? Early in '91 I wrote
an article for the California Celebrator Brewspaper about making N\A
at home. When I find the disk that its on I'll post it. It is not to
difficult a process, alcohol removal. The efficientcy of stove top
evaporation is less than 100 percent but it is something that you can
probably live with. It is possible to determine if you have in fact
removed some of the alcohol from the beer by checking the specific
gravity before and then after heating the beer. The gravity should
increase. The process is, after all removing the lightest component
of the beer. It is also possible to allow the vapor from the heated
beer to condense on a cool surface so the it may be collected.
Sensory analysis should verify the presence of ethyl alcohol. A bit
of caution, higher temperatures than 180F can boil off the higher
alcohols which when concentrated can be toxic. Collecting the distilate
is also illegal in the USA. Some commercial N\A is produced by drawing
off the alcohol in a vacuum, this works the best but is next to inpos-
sible to do at home. Another methode is to use specialy designed yeast
strains and mashing techniques to retard or reduce attenuation levels.
        If there is some interest in the homemaking of non alcohol
beers, then I would be willing to post the information and techniques
that I've gathered. This may save Jack S. from having to reinvent the
wheel.  Also my N\As do taste good and tend to be hoppy.
        Note: low alcohol beers are easier to homebrew than N\As.

                                      Micah Millspaw  2/4/92



                                                           

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Date: Tue,  4 Feb 92 19:42:10 -0600 (CST)
From: Brian Capouch <brianc at zeta.saintjoe.EDU>
Subject: Re: Millet Beer (sic)

In the past few weeks, I've been lucky enough to pick up a couple of
books that have changed my life as a brewer.  Last Friday, I found a
copy of "100 Years of Brewing" in a used bookstore in Chicago.  That
same day, I believe, there was a wonderful excerpt from that book here
on the digest, followed by another post this week. . . .  There's a very
interesting piece in there about the 1902 technique for brewing "Steam"
beer, and if anyone's interested I'll be glad to copy it. 

The other book is Keith Steinkraus' "Handbook of Indigenous Fermented
Foods."  It contains chapters on fermentations of many sorts, and the
portion of the book that deals with yeast-fermented alcoholic beverages
is the longest in the book.

Do you know the name of the drink in question?  The book contains very
explicit directions for the preparation of the various beverages, and
I'll look it up and post it if you'd like.

I've lined up sources of millet, sorghum, and maize, and will be trying
to learn to malt them sometime in the next few weeks.  One of my goals
is to make some authentic Peruvian-style chicha, about which I've been
reading more and more lately.  I'm almost certain that's where Charlie
P. has gone in search of the "oldest brewers in America."  The Winter
issue of American Brewer outlines a trip that was taken in search of
chicha by a freelance person who was hired by the Schoenling-Hudepohl
folks to go down there and see what was shaking.  The article contains a
lot of interesting things about the beverage, but is so permeated with
cultural arrogance and snide remarks about the "filthy" Indians it was
depressing to read.  The same fellow had an interview last weekend in
the Cincinatti paper that I haven't read, but from what I've heard is
equally filled with pinhead humor attempted at the native's expense.

Brian Capouch
Saint Joseph's College
brianc at saintjoe.edu





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End of HOMEBREW Digest #817, 02/05/92