FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Oh come on now....  Really. (Re - beer judge list flames) (Greg Roody - DTN 237-7122 - MaBell 508-841-7122)
  Re: Liquid vs. Dry Yeast (John DeCarlo)
  Re: Pure Dry Yeast? (John DeCarlo)
  Re: Liquid .vs. dry yeast (Jason Goldman)
  Lemon Beer ??????? (STROUD)
  Budvar (chuck)
  Hop sources in Canada? (J.N.) Avery <JAVERY at BNR.CA>
  HB virgin (jack.stclair)
  liquid vs dry, ale vs lager (donald oconnor)
  yeast growth (Chad Epifanio)
  Korean Homebrew (Michael Biondo)
  yeast difference ("KATMAN.WNETS385")
  wyeast (Brian Bliss)
  Dry yeast is best! (donald oconnor)
  malting? (Richard Foulk)
  Hop cuttings; Re : ales vs lagers (Conn Copas)
  I'm beginning to worry ... (John Dilley)
  Lager, Wyeast, (Jack Schmidling)
  distillation (Nick Zentena)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Mar 92 05:24:55 PST
From: Greg Roody - DTN 237-7122 - MaBell 508-841-7122 <roody at necsc.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Oh come on now....  Really. (Re - beer judge list flames)

Richard Childers writes:

>Which reminds me ... why must a person be a beer judge to subscribe to the
>beer judge mailing list ? Isn't that a tad elitist ? Perhaps the beer 
>judges should unsubscribe from the homebrew mailing list, since we have so
>little to contribute to their omniscient perspective ... ( sorry, but that
>sort of attitude really ticks me off. the mason digest is unrestricted ...
>why should the beer judges be any less free with their discussions ? ) 

Huh?  Who said you had to "be" a judge to subscribe to this list?  I am 
certainly not a qualified judge, and I am quite intimidated by the study 
guide, but I "am" a homebrewer and a subsciber to the list.  I find the 
discussions to be thought provoking nonetheless, and while I don't have 
much to add, I get a lot of useful info out of it.

One thing is certain though, if you have an attitude against discussions of 
"structure", "organization", "standards", and the thought of someone else
telling you your beer isn't perfect, then you wouldn't want to subscribe to
a list like this anyway. {You should try attending an ANSI or IEEE
standards body meeting sometime}. 

You may also want to stay away from competitions also, unless you enjoy 
paying other people to drink your beer, keep your bottles, and then deflate 
your ego a little {as the baby in Dinasours sais... "Again!"}.

Lighten up a little.  

/greg
/// - It takes Me All Year to Brew what Coors Brews in Just 10.3 Seconds \\\

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Date: Friday, 6 Mar 1992 08:58:48 EST
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re: Liquid vs. Dry Yeast

>From: matth at bedford.progress.COM

>  *Why* is using a liquid yeast *soooooo* much better?

>  If you make a strong starter, is there really a difference?

Well, as jack and others have pointed out, there is nothing magic
about the word "liquid" or "dry".  The practical difference to
homebrewers falls into two major categories, IMHO <grin>:

1) The liquid yeasts available are specific strains with known
   behavior.  If you really want something specific from your
   yeast, you have a much larger selection to choose from when
   choosing liquid yeasts.  I would no longer brew a weizen
   without at least some S.  Delbrueckii.  Therefore I can buy a
   liquid yeast culture or borrow from a friend, but I can not
   buy a dry yeast packet with that particular yeast in it.

2) The major vendors of dry yeast use economies of scale to
   produce very large batches and produce it cheaply.  As a
   result of the common methods used, only certain strains of
   yeast are hardy enough to survive both the drying process
   and the presumed practice of throwing the dried yeast
   directly into the wort (a strain on yeast cell walls).
   Another side effect is that every batch is contaminated to
   some degree (at least no study has ever found a dry yeast
   packet with no contamination).  This is not necessarily a
   problem for the home brewer, as our beers are also
   contaminated from our environment.  Some batches are
   particularly bad and some batches of dried yeast are much
   better.

Why aren't there more strains of yeast available in dry form and
why aren't there purer dried yeast packets?  I don't know.  I
suspect that the cost (entry cost for new producers and cost to
change production lines in existing producers) is not seen as
worth it, considering the size of the market of homebrewers.

On a tour of the Old Dominion Brewery, outside Washington, DC,
Jerry Bailey told us that they spent a very large amount of money
for a specific strain of yeast.  My notes indicate that it was
delivered in a compressed plug about the size of a child's fist.
Obviously it wasn't a small amount and it wasn't a liquid
culture.

Anyway, until more alternatives appear on the market, getting the
right strain of yeast for your recipe involves getting a liquid
culture, either from a big supplier like Wyeast or a smaller
supplier or a friend who maintains the cultures.

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Friday, 6 Mar 1992 08:59:31 EST
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re: Pure Dry Yeast?

>From: Bob Jones <BJONES at NOVA.llnl.gov>

>Would any of you buy liquid cultures if pure dry yeast cultures
>were available?  I know I wouldn't.

Well, if it cost *more* than the equivalent liquid cultures, I
suspect I would not pay much for the ease of use of dry yeast.

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Fri, 6 Mar 92 8:09:24 MST
From: Jason Goldman <jason at gibson.sde.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Liquid .vs. dry yeast

The reason that most homebrewers prefer liquid yeast is that liquid
yeasts are usually a purer strain that dry yeast.  This has a lot to
do with how the two forms are made.  I recommend the Zymurgy special
issue on yeast for a more detailed explanation.

Personally, I prefer to use liquid yeast.  I've made decent beer with
dry yeast, but the overall quality of my beers made with liquid yeast
is _MUCH_ better.

Jason


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Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1992 10:43 EST
From: STROUD <STROUD%GAIA at leia.polaroid.com>
Subject: Lemon Beer ???????

This may not answer the question posed about making a "lemon beer", but I
thought that it might be of interest anyway:      

According to "Reliable Receipts", an 1889 compilation of recipes from the
Ladies of the Central Congregational Church in Newtonville, MA, when it comes
to beverages, the lemon "surpasses all other fruits."  The following fizzy
concoction is "reminiscent of a light beer (to keep the gentlemen happy)
without containing any demon alcohol."

LEMON BEER

2 large lemons (about 12 oz total)
1 gallon water
2 cups sugar
1 cake fresh yeast

Slice the lemons thinly.  Heat the water to 110 degrees F. in a large stockpot.
Remove from the heat, add the lemon slices and remaining ingredients and stir
to dissolve the sugar and yeast.  Cover and set aside at room temperature
overnight.  Serve over ice.

Makes 1 gallon.


Good luck (maybe this could be turned into a real beer by replacing the sugar 
with malt),

Steve Stroud

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Date: Fri Mar  6 10:52:08 1992
From: synchro!chuck at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Budvar

I won't type the whole thing in, but here's a few paragraphs from an
interesting article.

Reprinted without permission from the March CAMRA What's Brewing:

*** START OF REPRINT ***

EXCLUSIVE: Budweiser seeks stake in Czech rival

US GIANT IN BUDVAR BID

by Roger Protz

The world's biggest brewer, Anheuser-Busch of the United States - producer of 
the international Budweiser brand - has told the Czech government that it 
wants to buy a 30 percent stake in the rival Budweiser Budvar brewery when it 
is privatised.  

The two beers and their conflicting trade marks have been deadly rivals for 
almost a century.  Courts have been kept busy for years deciding which brewery 
could sell its beer under the Budweiser name.  

Now Anheuser-Busch, which owns 12 breweries in the US and produces 90 million 
barrels a year, has moved to end the conflict by building a bridgehead in 
Czechoslovakia.  

John N. MacDonough, executive vice-president for marketing with 
Anheuser-Busch, outlined his company's proposals in London last month 
following a visit to the Budvar brewery.  

A 30 per cent holding in Budvar, he said, would allow the Czechs to expand 
capacity, currently 300,000 barrels a year.  

Anheuser-Busch would also help the Czechs market the beer internationally.  
MacDonough said he believed Budvar had great potential world-wide.  The two 
companies were cooperating to sell the beers as "Budweiser Budvar" and "Bud" 
in Europe.  

The US giant would even help Budvar sell the beer in the United States with 
"certain label modifications".  

"We can sell American Bud to Mexico and Japan but it's more difficult in 
Germany and the rest of northern Europe," MacDonough said.  

"It's like trying to sell white wine as red wine - Europeans want a 
full-bodied beer and Budvar is just that." 

The Anheuser-Busch proposal is just one of many that the Czech government has 
received concerning Budvar.  

Forty-two companies, including firms in Austria, Germany, and Japan, have also 
expressed an interst in either buying the Czech company outright or taking a 
holding in it.  John MacDonough claimed that his offer was the "preferred bid" 
in Czechoslovakia.  

The Budvar brewery would neither confirm nor deny this but a joint letter from 
the two breweries to the Czech government said that Budvar "evaluates the 
offer of A-B as the priority offer" among all those submitted.  

(the article then lists 8 guarantees from A-B to the workers and management at 
Budvar - CCC) 

John MacDonough stressed that Anheuser-Busch would not attempt to put pressure 
on Budvar to shorten the lagering (conditioning) time of their beer - 
currently 12 weeks - or to use cheaper ingredients.  

Budvar is an all-malt beer that meets the requirements of Germany's "Pure 
Beer" law.  American Budweiser uses rice as well as malt in its recipe.  

"Our intention is to help make Budvar one of the strongest brands in Europe," 
MacDonough said.  

Negotiations are expected to continue for some time before a final decision is 
made by the Czech government, which is privatising all former state-owned 
industries.  

*** END OF REPRINT ***

Elsewhere in What's Brewing, they editorialize that the tone of the offer 
sounds more like A-B wants 100% of Budvar, not just 30% as they claim.  
Certainly some of the promises that A-B is making require more than 30% 
control to guarantee.  As you might expect, CAMRA is not in favor of a small 
traditional brewery like Budvar being absorbed by a giant like A-B.  

While I agree on principle, I must admit that the idea of getting Budvar over
here is attractive.

=====
Chuck Cox
Hopped/Up Racing Team
chuck at synchro.com


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Date:        6 Mar 92 11:10:00 EST
From: Joel (J.N.) Avery <JAVERY at BNR.CA>
Subject:    Hop sources in Canada?

homebrew at tso.uc.EDU (Ed Westemeier) wrote

> I've had excellent luck with the hop rhizomes I've ordered
> from Freshops in Oregon.  The Cascades took off like crazy, but
> the Hallertauer, Northern Brewer and Saaz were no slouches
> either, all in the first year.  Can't wait to see what happens this
> year!  Give them a call at 503-929-2736.  There are probably
> other good sources, but that's the one I've had experience with.

I was looking for a source for hop rhizomes in Canada (just to
avoid the hassle of having them shipped across the border, and
the delays that that would bring).  I'm in Ottawa - does anyone
have any information about local sources?

> This month (March) is definitely the time to be planting your
> hop rhizomes, so don't delay.  Don't know where you're
> located, but the only caveat I'm aware of is that hops usually
> don't do their best below 40 degrees of latitude.  I'm at 39 and
> no complaints.

You must be at 39 degrees if you can plant things in March.  We
still have 18 inches of snow on the ground here.  I would
appreciate hearing from any northern hop growers about how to
grow hops around here.

Email please, as I am off skiing for a week in Whistler, and might
have to (shudder) delete the HBDs unread if I get too much work
related email.

javery at bnr.ca
Owner and Operator - White Beaver Brewery

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Date: Friday, 6 March 1992 08:06 PT
From: jack.stclair at amail.amdahl.com
Subject: HB virgin


Hi all you homebrewers out there in seventh heaven.  Let me introduce myself.
I'm Jack St.Clair from Folsom City California (that's CITY folks, not PRISON)
and I just recently discovered Homebrew while browsing the BB.  I thought I'd
died and gone to heaven. WOW!  Well, since I've already implied that I am a
real virgin at homebrew and am ready to take the plunge I have a million
questions that need answers. Like, What's a carboy? Anyway, I'll list a few
here and hope some of you respond.
1.  Does anyone have a comprehensive bibliography on the subject that they are
willing to share?
2.  How can I obtain a subscription to Zymurgy?
3.  How do I get started?
4.  What's a carboy?
5.  Is there anyone in or around the Folsom City area that would like to share
their experience with a novice?

Thanks in advance homebrewers.  I look forward to hearing from one and all.

P.S.  Also looking forward to my first homebrew.

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Date: Fri, 6 Mar 92 10:27:05 -0600
From: oconnor at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (donald oconnor)
Subject: liquid vs dry, ale vs lager

for those who are still debating the value of liquid vs dry yeast, a couple
of facts are worth noting.

Not a single winning beer at the 1991 AHA national used dry beer yeast.
two, barley wine and stout (which is more of a barley wine than stout) used
dry champagne yeast.  All others, about 20, used liquid yeast cultures and
most of those were Wyeast.  it's interesting to note that the percentage
of winning beers using liquid yeast has grown steadily every year.

dry yeast always have some bacteria and/or wild yeast.  aaron b. essentially
stated why this is so yesterday.  in simple terms, if you start with 
a pure liquid yeast culture and muck around with it (i.e., dry it), it will
no longer be pure.  It's very important to note that the zymurgy article
that ironically is referenced by the dry yeast advocates, clearly shows
that only the liquid cultures are free of bacteria and that all dry yeasts
including whitbread have bacteria.

this does not mean that you cannot make good beer with dry yeast.  if the 
level of bacteria is low and you take measures to minimize their growth such
as lowering the temperature, then you can make good beer with dry yeast.  
but all other things being equal, you will never make better beer with the
dry yeast rather than the liquid.

I'm sure there are some who will argue that POWDERED MILK IS BETTER THAN THE 
LIQUID STUFF, TACK IS BETTER THAN BEEF FROM THE BUTCHER, TANG IS BETTER THAN
FRESH SQUEEZED ORANGE JUICE, INSTANT COFFEE IS BETTER THAN FRESH GROUND, AND
PERHAPS, YOU CAN IMPROVE THE FAMILY DOG WITH A TRIP TO THE TAXODERMIST.  

the responses regarding ales vs lagers have been quite good.  a couple of
points have been left out of the discussion however.  one reason lagers
are so popular with breweries worldwide is the essentially competitive
advantage they have over ale yeast.  lagers can eat sugars at low 
temperatures while ale yeast and bacteria generally like warmer temps.
prior to pasteur, brewers didn't know what the hell was going on.
they were just glad to make good tasting beer with lager yeast rather
than sometimes good tasting with the ale yeast.

it is also worth note that lager yeasts will make good beer at ale 
temperatures.  as someone mentioned yesterday, Anchor is a good example.
generally, all good beer yeast will make good beer below about 75F.  
ales essentially shut down around 55-60 while lager yeasts will 
keep on working down to 40 or so.  some of the confusion about
lager vs ale lies in the fact that lager means to cold age or some
such thing in german, while at the same time lager yeast is 
a different critter than ale yeast.


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Date: Fri, 6 Mar 92 08:56:49 PST
From: chad at mpl.UCSD.EDU (Chad Epifanio)
Subject: yeast growth

Hello all,

I have an observation/question on yeast growth.  I once made a batch
of barley wine with Williams English Brewery Ale yeast, with cultured
Sierra Nevada yeast added after a week just for fun.  Last week on a
whim, a friend and I streaked out several strains of yeast on agar
plates.  We streaked Williams American Lager, Bavarian Ale, Wheat, and the
English/Sierra Nevada Ale mix.  All were taken from bottle sediment.
What we saw was that the English/Sierra Nevada grew MUCH faster, say 3-5
times faster, than the others.  We mixed up ~5 fl.oz. starter and added
it to a batch of pale ale this weekend.  It was at full krausen within
6 hrs, where usually I don't see full activity until about 12 hrs after
I pitch.  I'm sure plating it out and getting a healthy colony had much
to do with it, but has anyone else exerienced this quick growth with 
either English Brewery ale yeast or Sierra Nevada yeast?

Just wondering,
Chad Epifanio
chad%mpl at ucsd.edu

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Date: Fri, 6 Mar 92 12:05:32 CST
From: michael at wupsych.wustl.edu (Michael Biondo)
Subject: Korean Homebrew

Hello all ...
A fellow homebrewer asked if I would query the collective wisdom of the HBD
as to any information that may exist on a Korean homebrew called MAKKOLLI.

So, if anyone has any information, it would be greatly appreciated.
  Thanks...
   Mike Biondo
   michael at wupsych.wustl.edu

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Date: Fri, 6 Mar 92 18:57 GMT
From: "KATMAN.WNETS385" <6790753%356_WEST_58TH_5TH_FL%NEW_YORK_NY%WNET_6790753 at mcimail.com>
Subject: yeast difference



     Date: 06-Mar-92      Time: 01:55 PM       Msg: EXT03014

HI folks,
   I have made 2 (count 'em 2 :) batches of beer, both of which were (if I say
so myself :) wonderful. However, both had this sort of "tangy" taste at the
finish of your swallow. Not really an aftertaste, sort of a before the after
taste. Friends who brew a lot and who drank the beer think it might be either
from not using all-grain or from using dried yeast. Opinions?
   (this might be an incentive for using liquid yeast, or doesn't it make a lot
of difference until you go all grain?)

Lee Katman == Thirteen/WNET == New York, NY
(until friday the 13th, when I become a midwesterner :)

=Do not= use REPLY or ANSWERBACK, I can not receive mail in that fashion.
Please send all mail to
INTERNET katman.wnets385%wnet_6790753 at mcimail.com
OR
MCIMAIL EMS: wnet 6790753  MBX: katman.wnets385



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Date: Fri, 6 Mar 92 14:31:38 CST
From: bliss at csrd.uiuc.edu (Brian Bliss)
Subject: wyeast


The main advantage of liquid yeast is that strains can be used
which cannot withstand the stress of dehydration, as mentioned
in the previous digest.  As for why there is only 80 ml of wort
int the standard wyeast package, I don't know - I wish there
was more (which would require a substantially larger outer package
in order to keep CO2 pressure from exploding it).

The best method I've found for breaking the inner pouch is to
take a beer bottle with a slight concavity in the bottom, and place
it directly over the inner pouch, and strike the top with your
free hand.  This concentrates all the pressure on the inner pouch,
without placing undue pressure on the outer pouch.

I've found that the different wyeast strains produce a variety
of different flavors, many unattainable with any dry yeast I've
used, and that most of them are more attenuative than any dry yeast,
at least when they aren't recultured.

However, I concurr with Jack S. and personally beleive that wyeast
"purity" is a myth.  My first package was an english ale yeast, and the
starter went sour.  I ordered another (dated the same), and by the
time it arrived (2 days max w/o refigeration, during april), the
outer package had already swelled completely up, but the inner
one was unbroken, and the package was obviously infected.

I just lost an entire batch of hefe-weizen to an infection that
I beleive came directly from the wyeast wheat beer yeast, though
in this case it could conceivably have been my own sanitation problem.
In any case, ALWAYS make a starter when using wyeast, and taste
a little to make sure it isn't sour before pitching.  with such
little food for the yeast, which is kind of weird tasting in it's
own right, sometimes it is hard to to taste whether or not it is
slightly sour when you first cut the package open.  I try to always
have a package of good ole dry whitbrtead ale yeast laying around in
case the beer is already brewing and the starter is sour - I've never
lost a batch to whitbread ale.

I just wish that wyeast would make larger packages, so there would
be no risk of contamination from my kitchen when making a separate
starter.  Of course, if they did, and you tasted sour results,
you (and wyeast) wouldn't have your kitchen to blame it on.

Apologies to those who think the stuff is the greatest thing since
sliced bread; when it works, it works well, and hopefully we can
all agree on that...

bb


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Date: Fri, 6 Mar 92 16:07:50 -0600
From: oconnor at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (donald oconnor)
Subject: Dry yeast is best!

and POWDERED MILK IS BETTER THAN THE LIQUID STUFF, TACK IS BETTER THAN THE 
BEEF FROM THE BUTCHER, TANG IS BETTER THAN FRESH SQUEEZED ORANGE JUICE,
INSTANT COFFEE IS MUCH MORE FLAVORFUL THAN FRESH GROUND, AND YOU WILL
IMPROVE THE FAMILY PET WITH A TRIP TO THE TAXODERMIST.

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Date: Sat, 7 Mar 92 06:24:44 HST
From: richard at pegasus.com (Richard Foulk)
Subject: malting?

Has anyone here done any malting?  The local feed store sells whole barley
for $.30 per pound and it looks okay to me.

I'm not into copying beer styles exactly or anything like that so I'm
not too worried about perfection, specific barley strains, or anything
like that.  (I usually brew from extract, btw.)

The question is, can I make my own malt fairly easily, and can I brew
good beer from it?  Any tips, hints, pointers would be most appreciated.


Thanks.

Richard Foulk		richard at pegasus.com

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Date: Sat, 7 Mar 92 12:56:47 GMT
From: Conn Copas <C.V.Copas at loughborough.ac.uk>
Subject: Hop cuttings; Re : ales vs lagers

Is anybody in the UK purchasing hop cuttings, and if so, where ? The brewing
books mention a couple of research organisations. Secondly, anybody know a
supplier who carries retail amounts of Cascade ?

On the ale/lager issue, I always understood cold clarification was directed at
protein, not yeast, due to the traditional use of undermodified malt in lager.
One of the modern variations has been to employ better modified malts in all
beers except those containing a high proportion of unmalted adjuncts. One 
possible offshoot of lagering is what M Jackson terms 'cellar character',
presumably referring to a minor and desirable yeast autolysis note.
  
- -- 
Loughborough University of Technology          tel : (0509)263171  ext 4164
Computer-Human Interaction Research Centre     fax : (0509)610815      
Leicestershire  LE11 3TU           e-mail - (Janet):C.V.Copas at uk.ac.lut   
G Britain                 (Internet):C.V.Copas%lut.ac.uk at nsfnet-relay.ac.uk


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Date: Sun, 08 Mar 92 09:05:42 -0800
From: John Dilley <jad at aspen.iag.hp.com>
Subject: I'm beginning to worry ...


	I just racked a batch of steam beer I'm making, using The Sun
Has Left Us On Time Steam Beer recipe from Papazian, and I'm getting
real worried.  It's kind of early on a Sunday morning to have a homebrew
but since I need to relax, perhaps I should ... :-)	In this batch I
tried WYeast California Lager liquid yeast (recommended by the brew shop
for a good steam beer).  This is my first experiment with liquid yeast.
The primary ferment went OK but it took a while (nearly 24 hours) to get
started (I popped the yeast packet 24 hours before brewing, and it had
swelled up nicely).  Now, three days later, the primary seems to be
done.  The gravity dropped from 1048 to 1020 and bubbling has ceased.
But when I took the last gravity reading I noticed that the beer had a
very bad odor.  I'm worried that it may have spoiled.  I can't describe
the odor exactly -- it's not like vinegar or sour milk or anything else
I recognize.  What I'm wondering is whether others who have made this
type of beer or used this type of yeast (at room temperature for the
primary fermentation) have noticed a similar odor -- I'd love to hear
that this is normal.  I'm afraid I'll hear that I've just learned the
smell of sour beer.  This was a pretty expensive batch, and I'd sure
hate for it to be my first bad batch.  Any wisdom from the net will be
appreciated.  Best regards,

                          --      jad      --
			      John Dilley


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Date: Sun, 8 Mar 92 09:03 CST
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Lager, Wyeast,

 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 For once, I counted ten before sending my knee-jerk response and I would like 
 to thank all those who sent me mail and/or objected publicly.  I have 
 therefore edited my response to address the issues and not the person.
 
 There is however, one personal issue that must be dealt with and it might as 
 well be in public because I assume many people are thinking along the same 
 lines as I am.
 
 Jeff Frane has been the most vociferous advocate and promoter of liquid yeast 
 and Wyeast in particular.  He has recently made it known that he is a 
 consultant for and writes technical manuals for Wyeast and therefore has a de 
 facto vested interest in promoting the product.
 
 This can be taken as a "caveat emptor" or an opportunity for Jeff to defend 
 himself.
 
                ........... On to the issue....
  
 
 It is obvious from reading the many and varied responses to my question, that 
 the tastes are highly variable, to the point that ale can be made to taste 
 like lager and vice versa.  Therefore tasting different brands of the two 
 styles to get the feel is utterly useless.  That is why I asked for 
 experience from anyone who has conducted experiments using the same batch of 
 wort but different (ale/lager) yeasts and fermenting temps.
 
 
 >From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
 
 >If you've tried liquid yeast and it hasn't improved your beer from dry 
 yeast, then you've got sanitation problems.
 
 There are a zillion alternative iterations to that statement not the least of 
 which is just what is meant by "improved".  
 
 >  Switching to Wyeast improved my beer a quantum leap -- no longer was it 
 unmistakably "home brewed"..
 
 I can say the same for switching to Edme.  It proves nothing other than that 
 there was something wrong with what we used before switching.
 
 >>>Every day I give the relief valve a pull and get about a 3 second blast of
 CO2.  The gravity, however does not seem to be changing.  The beer tastes OK.
 Why is it not fermenting out?                                                
 
 >> I suspect you have unwittingly exploded the myth of "Wyeast purity".  
 Sounds like they cheated on the old family recipe and slipped you a bit of 
 Red Star.
 
 >I think you are directing the blame in the wrong place -- I've never had a
 problem with bacterial infection when I've used Wyeast and a recent batch
 made with M&F dry yeast did. 
 
 The author of the original article said that he paid careful attention to 
 sanitation and that usually leads one to suspect the yeast.
 
 > If there's a bacterial infection, I blame environment (dusty basement, 
 etc.) or technique (sanitizing the racking tube and then putting it on top of 
 the drier, etc.).  
 
 That is all, no doubt true, in general terms but you can not rule out the 
 possibility of the yeast being contaminated, no matter how hard liquid yeast 
 promoters try.
 
 >From: Bob Jones <BJONES at NOVA.llnl.gov>
 
 >Would any of you buy liquid cultures if pure dry yeast cultures were
 available? I know I wouldn't. Why don't someone take the next step and
 make dry yeast cultures? I would have never guessed brewers would pay
 $3.50 for yeast. I suspect we all would pay even a little more for pure
 dry yeast. Think of the advantages, more stable, higher pitch rates and no
 breaking pouches. I would venture a guess that Wyeast would be out of
 business almost overnight. Could it be that complex to take the next step
 and vacuum dehydrate the pure liquid culture? Sounds like a good side
 business for someone.
 
 Probably a bit more than a side business but that is the only point I ever 
 tried to make in my original debate on the subject.  But all it generated was 
 the same kind of rhetoric one gets talking about the quality of Japanese vs 
 American cars.
 
 The standard answer is that the desirable strains are not capable of 
 surviving in the dried state.
 
 My standard retorts are that people died from pneumonia before someone came 
 up with penicillin  and we don't let Bud tell us what beer should taste like, 
 why should we let promoters of liquid yeast?  If one likes the taste of beer 
 made with Edme, telling him that his process is unsanitary, is not very 
 productive.
 
 Finally, to avoid unnecessary dialog, I have no particular opinion on the 
 various yeasts available (excepting Red Star) other than that the proof of 
 the pudding is in the eating.  Anything said for a liquid culture COULD be 
 true for a dry culture and that is what my position has been all along and 
 Jones comes very close to putting the discussion on the appropriate track.
 
 ..............
 
 That was the end of my original posting sans about two pages of counter 
 flame.
 
 To amplify and discuss some of the thoughts put out today, I will address the 
 predictable argument about the impossibility selecting for dry packaging.
 
 Examples are too numerous to list, of successful selective breeding for 
 multiple characters.  
 
 Just take corn for example.  Native corn, was/is about one inch long, had a 
 few dozen tiny kernels, grew in a limited climatic range and the production 
 would be measured in tortillas per acre, not bushels.  
 
 Producing a yeast with the appropriate characters for beer and at the same 
 time maintaining viability during drying is a trivial problem compared to 
 what agronomists have done with corn.
 
 It is particularly trivial in light of the fact it takes a year to produce a 
 generation of corn and only minutes or hours for yeast.  My guess is that it 
 could be done in less than a year.  My experience with Edme would lead me to 
 believe that it already has but that is a different subject.
 
 So why, if it is so easy, has it not been done, if indeed, it has not?
 
 The largest users of dry yeast are bakeries and home bakers who apparently 
 get by with the product that is available.
 
 The largest users of brewers yeast are of course, commercial brewers.  
 Because of the vast quantities they use, they typically produce their own 
 yeast for production purposes.  Because of the continuity of their process, 
 there is nothing to be gained by drying the yeast.  It is simpler and cheaper 
 to use it in the liquid form.
 
 The homebrew market simply has not motivated the companies currently in the 
 dried yeast business (so we are told by the promoters of liquid yeast) to 
 produce the equivalent of a pure liquid culture.
 
 >From: smithey at rmtc.Central.Sun.COM (Brian Smithey)
 >Subject: Yet another Wyeast problem
 
 This is a familiar enough subject line that if it was MY company, I would do 
 something about it FAST!
 
 If they are too small to deal with a sophisticated package, they ought to 
 simplify it.
 
 If it were MY company, I would ship it in two packages.  The culture in one 
 and the nutrient in another. 
 
 It may feel good to contemplate that nice sterile environment for mixing but 
 if it doesn't work reliably, it's worse than not working at all.
 
 They could sell the nutrient by the gallon and the user would simply 
 sterilize a quantity when ready to use.  They could also just tell the user 
 how to make an appropriate medium and eliminate the problem entirely.
 
 That's my advice Jeff.  No charge this time.
 
 js
 
 
 

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Date: 	Sat, 7 Mar 1992 19:00:00 -0500
From: Nick Zentena <nick.zentena at canrem.com>
Subject: distillation


        Hi,
                I was wondering if anybody could discuss any possibly
                problems with distilling either wine or unhopped beer?

                Thanks in advance
                P.S. this is strictly for information. I'm interested if
                anything harmfull might be formed. Also since I'm north
                of the border discussions of US law won't be of much
                use.
                Of course Mail prefered.

                Nick
- ---
 ~ DeLuxe} 1.21 #9621 ~ nick.zentena at canrem.com
- --
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario/Detroit, MI
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #839, 03/09/92