HOMEBREW Digest #851 Fri 27 March 1992

Digest #850 Digest #852

		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator

  Re: All-grain in bags (Desmond Mottram)
  Re: Amusing Article (wbt)
  breaks,mash,blend (Russ Gelinas)
  Re:  Homebrew Digest #850 (March 26, 1992) (Eric Severson x6989 M160)
  Returnable Bottles (David Van Iderstine)
  Re:  Hop Rhizomes (David Van Iderstine)
  Some Heresies(?!) (Tom Quinn 5-4291)
  my Hunter AirStat (mcnally)
  Re:  Wort Chiller (David Van Iderstine)
  Cat's Meow 2 (caitrin lynch)
  Two Questions (neal.ridgeway)
  Wort Chiller Design (volkerding patrick)
  John's Monster (Frank Willis)
  homemade seltzer recipe? (...the shadow nose...)
  Re: Cat's meow 2 redux (Alan Edwards)
  Addendum: Re: Cat's meow 2 redux (Alan Edwards)
  Wort Chillers--a modest questionnaire (Jeff Frane)
  Frequently Asked Questions anyone? (Jan Isley)
  hop source question (dave ballard)
  To Filter or Not to Filter (Brian Davis)
  polish beer (SOCHA THOMAS M)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Mar 92 9:30:59 GMT From: des at pandora.swindon.ingr.com (Desmond Mottram) Subject: Re: All-grain in bags Eric Mintz <ericm at bach.ftcollinsco.NCR.COM> writes: > > Eric Rose <rose at aecom.yu.edu> writes: > > > It seems to me that a lot of the complication of all-grain brewing, namely > > complicated lautering procedures, could be avoided by simply putting the > > milled grains in grain bags during mashing. After completion of mashing, > > the bags could simply be lifted out of the mash-tun (which could just be your > > I tried this on my first all-grain batch; I burned a whole in the grain > bag. > > Another problem you risk is getting dry pockets of grain that could > release non-converted starches during the sparge. > For a year I have been using a purpose made "sparge bag", available from homebrew suppliers here. This is made from heat resistant materials which can stand touching the element of an electric boiler, and so makes an ideal hop bag as well as grain bag. It is large enough to hold up to 10lbs of grain, so dry pockets are not a problem provided you stir the grain well in when adding to the water. Rgds, Desmond Mottram Intergraph (UK) Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 92 8:55:29 EST From: wbt at cbemf.att.com Subject: Re: Amusing Article Guy McConnell wrote: > Quantum hombrew, what a concept! Now *that's* a microbrewery! I wonder if they'll call their recipe book "Schroedinger's Cat's Meow" ? Or maybe Pons and Fleischman will come up with "Cold Fermentation." The parallels are astounding! How about the "Mass/Flavor Duality Theory," which could resolve the conflict between people who believe beer tastes great and those who believe it's less filling? Or the Homebrew Uncertainty Principle, which states that the more beers you drink, the less likely you are to remember how many you drank? I'm outta here... I have to watch "Young Einstein" split the Tasmanian beer atom again! - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bill Thacker AT&T Network Systems - Columbus cbemf!wbt Quality Engineer Network Wireless Systems wbt at cbemf.att.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1992 9:45:33 -0500 (EST) From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas) Subject: breaks,mash,blend Jack, I know when you said to just let the chiller sit in the wort for 30 minutes without turning the water on, you were defining an experiment of sorts. I'd just like to say that in practice, you want to turn the water on immediately to cool the wort as quickly as possible. In fact, the faster you cool, the more fluffy stuff you'll see. That stuff is the cold break. The hot break happens during the boil, when proteins, etc. clump together. I believe the hot break is happening at the time when boilover is most likely, although I've seen it happen before then. The differentiation, as I understand it, is *when (at what temperature)* the break occurs. The break material itself is more or less the same. Blending: I often blend brews after they're bottled (black and tan anyone?) I suggested that to someone who had a too-sweet and a too-bitter brew. He did, it tasted better, but then some odd reaction took place and he got a solid half a glass of precipitate! He posted it to HBD, but got no response. Both brews were ok, nothing to indicate what would happen when mixed. Any ideas on what was going on? Overnight mash: Isn't this the way the big brewers make "dry" beer, a veeerrrrryyyy looooonnnnnnggggg mash? Russ Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 92 09:57:58 CST From: severson at nsd.fmc.com (Eric Severson x6989 M160) Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #850 (March 26, 1992) I would appreciate any information on HARD CIDER (HBA style desc, recipes, references, etc). Thanks. Eric J Severson (612-572-6989) Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 92 11:45:41 EST From: orgasm!davevi at uunet.UU.NET (David Van Iderstine) Subject: Returnable Bottles All this talk about using normal returnable beer bottles is much ado about nothing, if you ask me. I've been using garden-variety brown bottles for years, and have NEVER had one break under pressure! Just do it! Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 92 11:49:21 EST From: orgasm!davevi at uunet.UU.NET (David Van Iderstine) Subject: Re: Hop Rhizomes >From: Joel (J.N.) Avery <JAVERY at BNR.CA> >Subject: Where can I get hop rhizomes from? Try: Freshops 36180 Kings Valley Hwy. Philomath, OR 97370 (503) 929-2736 Hops should be trained to grow sideways, not up, if at all possible. Unless, of course, you like standing on 10 ft. high ladders to harvest. Your choice! Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 92 11:06:31 CST From: quinnt at turing.med.ge.com (Tom Quinn 5-4291) Subject: Some Heresies(?!) Hello fellow brewers, I had an interesting conversation with a guy I order supplies from often, and he had some unusual (to me) points to make. Some of the things he said went against the conventional wisdom expressed here. I'd like to hear if others share his views, or perhaps get some insight into the basis for his ideas. First of all, he feels strongly that trub is bad (not an uncommon view) and brewers should be careful to let as much as possible settle out before racking into a fermenter. However, he feels that copper wort chillers are a very bad idea, saying that copper will oxidate the hot wort as much as splashing it around. His recommendation is to gently siphon the hot wort into a plastic bucket and let cool and settle overnight, then rack off the settled trub into the fermenter and pitch. Does anyone else share the view that copper will oxidize hot wort? He says a stainless steel chiller would do the job nicely. Also, it seems to me that siphoning the hot wort is also likely to oxidize it. Any comments? His other claim is that racking to and fermenting in a secondary is useless, and in fact harmful. The racking will release lots of good CO2 in suspension in the beer, causing more oxidation and upsetting the yeast(?). The only time one should rack to a secondary is for a long ( > 1 month) cool lagering. Otherwise, a single-stage fermentation is sufficient. Does anyone share this view, or care to dismiss it? Recent discussion about dry-hopping indicate that lots of people regularly use a secondary. Personally, I'm going to try some of his ideas and see what differences I can detect. Tom Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 92 09:24:41 -0800 From: mcnally at wsl.dec.com Subject: my Hunter AirStat I've been using my Hunter AirStat to run a bizarre substitute for a fermentation refrigerator. I've got a bucket (formerly, before I began using a big glass one, my fermentor) wrapped in insulation. Near the bottom of one side is a hole and a small plastic hose nozzle. Tubing runs from there, to a fountain pump, then through a long length of tubing that sits in an ice chest filled with ice water, and finally back to the bucket. The fermentation carboy sits in the bucket surrounded by water that, under direction of the AirStat, is circulated through the ice water. This setup seems to work real well. That is, it used to. Last night, when I came home, I noticed that the display read 88 degrees. I of course was gripped by panic, and I immediately shut down the pump thinking that somehow the ice bath had warmed to the point that I was now effectiely using the pump as an inefficient heater. Not so. The water bath was quite cold, and fermentation had slowed quite a bit. When I first put this together, I sealed the temperature probe pretty thoroughly in silicone sealant. I'm not sure how I could have done a much better job of that, but I'm also convinced that the probe failed because of corrosion. Anyway, be warned. The failure happened spontaneously; the thing was working fine yesterday morning. _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- Mike McNally mcnally at wsl.dec.com Digital Equipment Corporation Western Software Lab Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 92 12:03:53 EST From: orgasm!davevi at uunet.UU.NET (David Van Iderstine) Subject: Re: Wort Chiller >From: bgros at sensitivity.berkeley.edu (Bryan Gros) >Subject: wort chiller I also built a wort chiller from copper tube, but I don't run wort through it. Rather, I used compression fittings on either end to mate to 3/4" garden hose connections. I then use short sections of hose to connect one end to the faucet, & the other hose goes in the sink. The chiller sits in the wort (after having been sterilized), and cold tap water is run through it. This chills the wort to 80 deg. in about 15 minutes. The short hose sections are replacement hoses for washing machines, from the hardware store. =========================================================================== == Dave Van Iderstine Senior Software Engineer == == Xerox Imaging Systems, Inc. == == UUCP: uunet!pharlap!orgasm!davevi davevi at pharlap.com :INTERNET == ==-----------------------------------------------------------------------== == "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate." == =========================================================================== Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 92 12:01:56 CST From: caitrin lynch <lyn6 at midway.uchicago.edu> Subject: Cat's Meow 2 This question is only slightly beer related but my own attempts to figure it out have come to nothing. Question: How do I do an anonymous ftp to mthvax etc. in order to get the text version of Cat's Meow 2? I figured out how to ftp but cannot get the file without loging in. Hope this is not too far off the beer theme. Thanks, Caitrin P.S. I had netlib send the file. It comes in pieces and I cannot put it together properly to uudecode etc. The problem maybe in copying the files from the mail system to my file area. I don't know. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 92 11:32:46 MST From: smithey at rmtc.Central.Sun.COM (Brian Smithey) >>>>> On Wed, 25 Mar 92 19:10:02 CST, gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix) said: George> After the book was off to Brewers Publ., Darryl Richman sent me George> a remarkable new formula for the a priori prediction of wort George> color. . . . George> We sure hope Darryl makes his new software available (it includes George> a new hop bitter estimation scheme as well). Any chance that these will be made available for public consumption, Darryl? Those of us who write our own software or (shudder) calculate by hand can use all the help we can get. And I'll second Tony's recommendation of the Fix's new book. It's been the topic of lunchtime conversation for a couple of days now, and probably will be again today! Boy, I miss Noche Buena ... Brian - -- Brian Smithey / Sun Microsystems / Colorado Springs, CO smithey at rmtc.Central.Sun.COM Return to table of contents
Date: Thursday, 26 March 1992 10:38 PT From: neal.ridgeway at amail.amdahl.com Subject: Two Questions 1. I have been cooling my wort using a coil of copper tubing 5/8ths ID, 32 feet long, for about a year now and it will cool 5.5 gallons of wort to around 65 degrees in about 15 minutes. Recently I read somewhere that using copper to cool beer wort was not a good idea due to the toxicity of copper. Has anyone any thoughts on this matter? 2. I have been asked by friends about making a batch of malt liquor but I dont have any idea about how it is made. Does anyone have a recipe for malt liquor they would be willing to pass on to me? To everyone, keep up the good work! Neal Ridgeway ndr00 at amail.amdahl.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 92 14:08:30 -0600 From: volkerdi at MHD1.moorhead.msus.edu (volkerding patrick) Subject: Wort Chiller Design There's been some discussion of wort chillers again, so I thought I'd toss in my $.02 since I recently built an immersion chiller that works _really_ good. I got it to chill 5 gallons to 60F in about 10 minutes. Of course, the tap water here in Minnesota is super cold, so your mileage may vary. I used about 25' of 3/8 od copper. On each end of this I put a 3/8 brass compression fitting with a 3/4" threaded socket. I put adaptors on these to convert the 3/4" inch socket to garden hose fittings, one male and one female. The total cost for all the fittings was about $5. Worth it, IMHO, because I have no leaks (so far), and I don't have to worry about a hose falling off, even with the water at full blast. (The thing almost _jumps_ when you crank it on :^) I used Teflon tape on all the threaded connectors, BTW. I coiled the copper so that the input leads into an inner coil about 5 inches in diameter. At the bottom, I curved the coil out to about a 10 inch diameter and worked my way back up to the top, forming a dual-coil design. I bent the two loose ends so that they lead up and out of the kettle, and then head back down toward the floor again, just enough so that if there are any leaks on the fittings or connectors the water will drip on to the floor instead of into the kettle. Handy tip #1: Get some snap-connect type hose adaptors. They make it real easy to connect and disconnect your hoses from the chiller. I used Nelson Snap Connect #2970 (two of them) which I got for about $1.50 each at a hardware store. Handy tip #2: Get one of those little plastic ball-valve things and stick it on the end of the source hose, right before the snap connect. Then you can leave the hose on all the time. This works great for me, because I brew in my basement and I can use the hose to wash out carboys or whatever and the water goes down the floor drain. Obviously this may not work as well in your kitchen :^) Handy tip #3: If possible, put a big hook on the ceiling near your kettle so your can just reach up and hang your chiller up on the ceiling. Then when you sanitize your chiller, you won't need a sanitized surface to set it down on. Hope this helps your brewing :^) Patrick Volkerding Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 92 15:49:34 EST From: colin mccrossin <cmccross at lazy.helios.nd.edu> Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 92 14:14:50 -0700 From: fiz at lamar.ColoState.EDU (Frank Willis) Subject: John's Monster Reply to John's Monstrosity HBD #848...ZLPAJGN%LUCCPUA.bitnet at UICVM.UIC.EDU John's singular account of a recent batch of homebrew gone sour struck a chord of familiarity with us. We also have experienced a similar sensation while brewing. Here's our story. About a month ago, we cooked a batch which used 4 lbs pale malt extract and 3 lbs honey (named Honey Logger). We decided to try Wyeast's Bohemian Lager yeast in the original exploding package, which did. We became justifiably concerned about the ruptured yeast package and transferred the contents to a sterilized ziplock baggie, brewed the wort and pitched the yeast the following morning and waited, and waited, and waited. When no sign of fermentation was present 2 days later, we repitched the yeast using a package of dry SuperBrau yeast we just happened to have. Later that day krauesan was blowing out the tube. The following day the fermentation appeared to be subsiding and we removed the blowout tube for use on a batch of Seat-of-Your-Pants ale. The next day, we made a pilgrimage to the fermenting room, which also doubles as a homebrew storage area and furnace room, for a bottle of homebrew and a chat with our yeast and discovered the Honey Logger had become a mini wort volcano, spewing krauesan out through the airlock. We replaced the airlock with a blowout tube and had a homebrew. Shortly thereafter, several friends were over for a 'tour of the brewery'. An Irish friend with a liking for Quinness took one whiff of the Honey Logger airlock and said without hesitation, "I'd say ya named the wrong one the Seat-of-Your-Pants". Our Honey Logger had an aroma that was enough to make a hog farmer blush. We became concerned, had several more homebrews and watched our concoction merrily bubble away. After 3 weeks of gut wrenching fermentation, our precious Honey Logger now has a wonderful mead fragrance and no trace of the 'ode de hog farm'. We bottled it last night and were pleasantly surprised by a very tasty, very dry beer. In the 'The Complete Joy of Homebrewing', Charlie recommends not using more than 20 percent sugar in homebrew. Interestingly enough, the Honey Logger and your 'Monstrosity' both used over 40 percent honey/sugar. Could this be the reason for the undesirable aromas? Our advice (for whatever its worth) is this. Be concerned if you really must, but above all relax, have a homebrew and just call this batch 'Monstrosity Ale'. If it turns out to be any good (which I think it will), send the recipe. ***************************************************** * * * Bear-Wire Brewing Co. * * Ft. Collins, Colorado * * * * Frank Willis fiz at lamar.colostate.edu * * and * * Al Miller miller at lamar.colostate.edu * * * *****************************************************  Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 92 16:22:21 EST From: ...the shadow nose... <strahs at murex.bioc.aecom.yu.edu> Subject: homemade seltzer recipe? A friend of mine is interested in making his own seltzer... He's thinking about using champagne yeast and corn sugar with ordinary tap water... What sort of problems would he run into? Nutrients, maybe? Ammoniacal nitrogen? What about pitching the yeast at a high enough concentration to get around growth inhibition (due to lack of nutrients) while producing the seltzer quickly enough to make it worthwhile? Any and all thoughts are welcome on this subject. It seems to have never been discussed on the homebrewer's digest within the last two years (at least according to my archives 8~). - Dan Strahs Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 92 14:48:47 PST From: rush at xanadu.llnl.gov (Alan Edwards) Subject: Re: Cat's meow 2 redux Howzitgoin Brewdudes! I just thought I'd put in my two cents. Regarding Spencer W. Thomas' article (Cat's meow 2 redux) in HBD #850, I've found an easier way to print documents (eg. The Cat's Meow) double-sided. It's not necessary to edit the source file in any way! 1. Send the file to the printer. 2. Re-stack the output by taking TWO pages at a time (from the top, writing facing up), and place them (also face up) in a new pile. You will end up with pages in the order (from the bottom up) 2, 1, 4, 3, 6, 5, ... 3. Turn the new stack over and place in the printer's paper hopper. 4. Send the file to the printer again. You will end up with a stack with the page numbers (front/back): 1/2, 2/1, 3/4, 4/3, 5/6, 6/5, ... 5. Separate alternating pages into two piles (remember to turn over the pages going into the first pile). 6. You now have two copies, double-sided. Share one copy with your nearest brewing-pal (they should share a homebrew in return). Later Brewfolks, -Alan .------------------------------------. | Alan Edwards: rush at xanadu.llnl.gov | Member: The Hoppy Cappers | or: alan-edwards at llnl.gov | homebrew club, Modesto, CA `------------------------------------' Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 92 14:53:42 PST From: rush at xanadu.llnl.gov (Alan Edwards) Subject: Addendum: Re: Cat's meow 2 redux One other point: I should mention that the above method will work for printers that don't need to reverse the page order (eg. LaserWriter II series). You may have to re-work step 2 for printers like the LaserWriter Plus. -Alan .------------------------------------. | Alan Edwards: rush at xanadu.llnl.gov | Member: The Hoppy Cappers | or: alan-edwards at llnl.gov | homebrew club, Modesto, CA `------------------------------------' Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 92 14:10 PST From: gummitch at techbook.com (Jeff Frane) Subject: Wort Chillers--a modest questionnaire I'm going to be doing a presentation on wort chillers at this year's national AHA conference -- actually I'm going to be building a counter-flow and an immersion chiller THREE TIMES during the week. I'm a long-time counter-flow user but would like some feedback from the brewers here. If you would take the time to send me some responses by e-mail, I'd appreciate it. My preference is: [ ] counter-flow [ ] immersion My reasons are: Your experience/months, years brewing ==================================== I've been brewing for: I've been brewing all-grain beers for: Send it to me at: gummitch at techbook.com Thanks! Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 92 18:07:40 EST From: bagend!jan at gatech.edu (Jan Isley) Subject: Frequently Asked Questions anyone? I would like to see a number of FAQs for rec.crafts.brewing that would be broken down by topics such as beer styles, ingredients, hardware, etc... Please make any suggestions via email. Please do not start up another thread here or in the newsgroup that will just turn into a flame fest. I say again, PLEASE DO NOT POST FOLLOW-UPS, respond pro or con via email. Suggestions or text for possible inclusion are most welcome, flames are not. If you must know, I am not directing this discussion to the poster of the current faq because he has made it abundantly clear that he is not interested in my opinion. I see the need for an expanded faq. If you agree, write me. If you disagree, relax, have a homebrew. I do not participate in Compu$pend but I understand that the AHA has a forum there. Does anyone out there know how I could work an email connection from me in internet land to someone on the AHA staff to discuss the possibility of posting some of their information? - -- Do not suffer the company of fools. || Jan Isley gatech.edu!bagend!jan Siddhartha Gautama, the Buddha || jan at bagend.uucp (404)434-1335 Return to table of contents
Date: 26 Mar 1992 21:29 EST From: dab at dasher.cc.bellcore.com (dave ballard) Subject: hop source question Hey now- I got a postcard in the mail today from a place in Wisconsin called Matacheski Farms. They are selling hop rhizomes (hallertau, tettnang, fuggles, willamettes, bullion, cascade) for pretty good prices. Has anybody gotten anything from them before? They also offer dried hops (in august/september). iko- dab ========================================================================= dave ballard "Life may not be the party we hoped for, dab at dasher.cc.bellcore.com but while we're here we should dance." ========================================================================= Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 92 12:59:59 pst From: Brian Davis <brian%mbf.uucp at ics.uci.edu> Subject: To Filter or Not to Filter I'm considering the purchase of a water filter. Have any of you noticed a change in the flavor of your beer made with and without filtered water? Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 92 22:04:48 -0500 From: tmsocha at vela.acs.oakland.edu (SOCHA THOMAS M) Subject: polish beer Does anyone have any Polish beer recipes? Thank You, Tom Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 92 21:05 CST From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) Subject: GELATINE, LAGER, BREAST IMPLANTS To: Homebrew Digest Fm: Jack Schmidling From: stevie at spss.com >Frankly, many argue that the value of finings may be marginal, and that improved clarity may be simply due to the use of a secondary fermenter. They can argue all they want but gelatin works like magic. I have never made a batch without secondary fermentation and I never had a clearing problem till I turned to all grain. After sitting in secondary for several weeks, the clearing process seems to reach a level beyond which I have not the patience to wait. 24 hours after fining with gelatin, it is crystal clear. Since I switched to kegs, I quit fining because it settles out in the keg and I would rather not adulterate my beer. It is just one more step removed from BUD. >From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu> >jack said: >>It is obvious from reading the many and varied responses to my question, that the tastes are highly variable, to the point that ale can be made to taste like lager and vice versa. >I *have* been following this thread. It seemed to me you were implying (still) that there is no difference between an ale and a lager. I neither implied nor intended any such meaning, "still" or ever. >Do you mean to say that trying to tell the difference between ale characteristics and lager characteristics based on tasting commercial beers is pointless because of stylistic differences (ie the recipes are so different that you won't be able to isolate taste differences due to the yeast)?? No. I said not a word about yeast. This is not a discussion about yeast. It is a discussion about the difference between the taste of ale and lager. How the producer achieves the difference is irrelevant. I was told to go buy a few bottles of commercial ale and lager to determine the difference myself. The technical comments lead one to the conclusion that there is enough variability in technique and recipes that it would be very difficult for an unsophisticated taster to learn anything in that way. When all of the opinions are sorted out we are left with nothing more that "a cleaner taste" and a lack of certain esoteric esterish remnants. Even the almost universally agreed to "fruitiness" of ale leaves me in the cold. The only fruit I have ever tasted in my ale was bananas and apples resulting from contaminated yeast and the use of sugar. >From: ingr!ingr!b11!mspe5!guy at uunet.UU.NET >Attention homebrewers! I ran across this article in the March 16 edition of EE Times magazine: >"Silicon structures too small? Add yeast... Somewhere in all this must be the solution to the breast implant problem. :) js Return to table of contents
End of HOMEBREW Digest #851, 03/27/92