FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Urubamba/Chicha beer (chris campanelli)
  raspberry ale (Anthony Rossini)
  Old Beer Bottles (Tom Dimock)
  Re-hydrating dried yeast? (Alexander R Mitchell)
  Milwaukee area brewpub/micro list (GC Woods)
  Beer in Las Vegas (Peter Karp)
  smoking/beer-tasting (korz)
  Re: Meeting in Milwaukee ("Roger Deschner  ")
  RE: Homebrew Digest #858 (April 07, 1992) (M CAMEL.T)
  re:view on brewing (Robert Schultz)
  AHA conference (Bob Jones)
  Re: AHA Conference (David William Bell)
  Low PH paper (Frosty D. Snowman)
  Yeast Biology (John L. Isenhour)
  Hey Darryl - Lager question. (Chris Quint)
  Re: Mail order prices (Dave Wiley)
  Chimay (Brian Bliss)
  brewsheet.ps ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  Instruction-less hydrometer... (Michael J. Gerard)
  AHA info, please, for a "real homebrewer" (Robert Bradley)
  Conference Party ("Rad Equipment")
  Conference Party                      Time:12:59 PM    Date:4/7/92
  re re: Why Lager? (Chip Hitchcock)
  Corrections to Vienna (Laurie Fix) (George J Fix)
  Baker's retort (Denise R. Capistran)
  Mystery Chunks... (Malt-Fermenter Gelly)
  re:  Hey Darryl -- Lager Question (darrylri)
  re: Why Lager? (darrylri)
  Lager vs Ale (Norm Hardy)
  Books for the serious Yeastmeister (John Isenhour)


Send submissions to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues!]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 92 23:52 CDT
From: akcs.chrisc at vpnet.chi.il.us (chris campanelli)
Subject: Urubamba/Chicha beer

     In the most recent issue of ALL ABOUT BEER (May 1992), there was an
article called "The Brewsters of Urubamba" by Alan D. Eames.  The article
focused on a beer called "Chicha".  Is there anyone out there who can
supply more info about the beer, particularly what type of corn was used,
what type of yeast is employed and anything else about extra ingredients?
Please do not repeat the article.  I am looking for more info about this
beer OTHER than what appeared in the article.  Please send any responses
by private email.  Thanks ahead of time.

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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 92 07:47:05 EDT
From: rossini%biostat at harvard.harvard.edu (Anthony Rossini)
Subject: raspberry ale

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions, recipes, and comments.  You all know
who you are!  I was going to post the recipe I'm going to use in brewing
tommorow, but I think I'll wait until I taste the result. Plans include 24oz
raspberries right after the boil, and 24oz in the secondary.  The one
question I have is how should I prepare the raspberries for the secondary?
Granted, there is a bit less chance of infection at this point, but still...
Do people just risk the infection and dump in the fruit, or do they steam
the fruit first? (I'd assume this might kill off nasties with out creating
too much jelly...). 

If anyone is interested in the information I got, email me and I'll compile
the lot and send them; since some have been posted here, I see no need to
waste bandwidth...

thanks again,
 -tony

- --
Anthony Rossini       -       rossini at biostat.harvard.edu
Department of Biostatistics, Harvard School of Public Health
677 Huntington Ave, Boston MA 02115  617-432-1056

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Date:         Tue, 07 Apr 92 08:28:48 EDT
From: Tom Dimock <RGG at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:      Old Beer Bottles

In helping a friend who is moving clean out his barn, I acquired two
very old beer bottles.  Both of these bottles have raised lettering
(any labels that might have been were long gone).  I was wondering if
any of you beer historians out there have any information on the
breweries.

The first bottle was from Gerhard Lang Brewery in Buffalo, N.Y., and
the second was from the Springfield Brewing Company, in Springfield,
Mass.

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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 92  08:37:47 EDT
From: Alexander R Mitchell <ARMITC01 at ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Re-hydrating dried yeast?

Prog/Analyst II C & T
Phone: (502)588-5626
Could one reduce the chances of contaminates/beasties in dried yeast by
re-hydrate yeast in water and then add grain alcohol up to 5%-10% ?  The
yeast water, alcohol could then be added to a starter solution if one were
so inclined. Are the contaminates/beasties is dried yeast alcohol resistant?
Thanks for any information,
Mitchell


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Date: 7 Apr 92 09:21:23 EDT (Tue)
From: GC Woods <gcw at garage.att.com>
Subject: Milwaukee area brewpub/micro list

Since there has been a number of request for brewpubs/micros in the
Milwaukee area, here they are:

* denotes microbrewery/regional brewery (probably does not serve beer)
** Don't know if micro or pub
*** Bar
**** Brew contracted
 at  been there

ILLINOIS

Berwyn

 at     Weinkeller Brewery
     6417 W. Roosevelt Road
     Berwyn, IL 60402
     312-749-2276

Champaign

     Joe's Brewing Co (old Chief's Brewing Co)
     706 South 5th
     Champaign, IL 61820
     217-328-2739

Chicago

     Chicago Brewing Co*
     1830 North Besly Ct.
     Chicago, IL 61820
     312-252-BREW

 at     Goose Island Brewing Co
     1800 N. Clybourn
     Chicago, IL 60614
     312-915-0071

 at     Bergoff Brewery & Restuarant |(old Sieben/River North Brewery)
     436 W. Ontario               
     Chicago, IL 60610           
     312-266-7771

 at     Tap & Growler
     901 W. Jackson
     Chicago, IL 60607
     312-829-4141

Elmhurst

     Pavichevich Brewing Co.*
     383 Romans Road
     Elmhurst, IL 60126
     708-617-5252

South Barrington

     Millrose Brewing Co.
     South Barrington, IL

Westmont

     Weinkeller Brewery #2    | opening early 92
     Westmont, IL


WISCONSIN

Appleton

     Appleton Brewing Co. / Dos Bandidos Brew Pub / Johnny O's
     1004 S Olde Oneida St.
     Appleton, WI 54915
     414-731-3322
     
     Fox Classic Brewing Co.
     318 W. College Ave.
     Appleton, WI 54913
     414-730-1166

Chilton

     Rowlands Calument Brewing / The Roll Inn
     25 North Madison Street
     Chilton, WI 53014
     414-849-2534

Kenosha

     The Brewmaster's Pub
     4017 80th St.
     Kenosha, WI 53142
     414-694-9050

Middletown

     Capital Brewery Inc.
     7734 Terrance Ave.
     Middletown, WI 53562
     608-836-7100

Milwaukee

     Bavarian Wursthaus
     Milwaukee, WI
     (across from timmerman airport)

     Lakefront Brewery*
     818-A East Chambers St.
     Milwaukee, WI 53212
     414-372-8800

     Sprecher Brewing Co.*
     730 West Oregon St.
     Milwaukee, WI 53204
     414-272-BEER

     Water Steet Brewery
     1101 N. Water St.
     Milwaukee, WI 53202
     414-272-1195

Monroe

     Joseph Huber Brewery**
     1208 14th Ave
     Monroe, WI 53566
     608-325-3191

Stevens Point

     Stevens Point Brewery
     2617 Water St.
     Stevens Point, WI 54481
     715-344-9310
     
Sturgeon Bay
     
     Cherryland Brewing Co. / Olivers Station
     341 North 3rd Ave.
     Sturgeon Bay, WI 54235
     414-746-0900



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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 92 09:48:38 EDT
From: Peter Karp <karp at cs.columbia.edu>
Subject: Beer in Las Vegas


I will be traveling to Las Vegas next week and was wondering if there are
any brew pubs or brewery in town?

Peter Karp

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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 92 08:57 CDT
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: smoking/beer-tasting

Bob Jones asks about being a smoker and a beer taster.

I used to smoke (quit in sept 90 after 16 years).  One of the
reasons I quit was that I entered a beer in the `88 nationals and
got terrible reviews.  After receiving the judging forms, I
pulled out a refridgerated bottle of the same beer and tried to
identify the flavors/smells etc.  I couldn't.  At the time,
I figured that it could be the fact that was a smoker.  In
retrospect, I think it was 60% smoke and 40% inexperience.
I am still learning a lot (who says "when I stop learning, bury me?")
but quitting smoking has made tasting a much more enjoyable and
intense experience.
Al.

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Date: 7 April 1992 09:14:47 CDT
From: "Roger Deschner " <U52983 at UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Meeting in Milwaukee

Since those of us atttending the AHA conference will be at the Mark
Plaza, Downtown, I'd suggest the Water Street Brewpub as a HBD meeting
place. It's not far out of the way from the Mark Plaza, and it's also not
too far from Marquette University's environs. Furthermore, its easy to
find even by strangers to Milwaukee. Best of all, it's an actual brewpub,
(albeit extract) which like all good brewpubs has hits and misses, but
their hits can be excellent. Food is great, and not terribly costly.

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Date:    Tue, 7 Apr 1992 9:15:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: Z_TOTAHMC at CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU (M CAMEL.T)
Subject: RE: Homebrew Digest #858 (April 07, 1992)

Signoff beer-l

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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 10:30 CST
From: Robert Schultz <SCHULTZ at admin1.usask.ca>
Subject: re:view on brewing

I almost hate to stoop to flaming Jack S, but ...

Brewing (according to Funk & Wagnalls) is the process of making fermented
undistilled liquids, as beer or ale.

It is the fermentation process which determines if you are brewing,
not the process up to the point of fermentation. In fact, one may argue
that producing NA beer may not be brewing. As I read the laws in Canada,
they relate to alcoholic beverages - which dictate what I can or can
not do with my product. Non-Alcoholic beverages fall under different
legislation which are much more relaxed than for alcoholic beverages.

As for the mashing, etc. Jack should maybe talk to the Wine Industry and
inform them that they are not "BREWING."

Keep your hops on straight!

Rob Schultz
University of Saskatchewan

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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 09:33 PDT
From: Bob Jones <BJONES at NOVA.llnl.gov>
Subject: AHA conference

Even if we all can't manage to meet in one place, why not a unique ID for
all the HBD'ers like a red H on your coference badge. You know like the
scarlett letter. Everyone would ask "what does the red H mean?" and we
would all reply "I'm a member of a special group of people who spend large
amounts of time at work on beer related topics". So lets plan on a red H
on our badges to ID ourselves. Comments are appreciated.

Bob Jones

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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 92 11:47:44 CDT
From: David William Bell <bell at convex.csd.uwm.edu>
Subject: Re: AHA Conference

Hi again,

I got some replies about the benefit of going to the conference
and that its worth the cost.  I appreciate them, especially the 
parts about going to the modules  I just wanted to clarify that
I don't intend to mean its not *worth* it.  I just spent all my
free cash for the semester already.  I'll try to make the lambic 
tasting, etc. thanks to your replies.

Cheers, 
David Bell - bell at convex.csd4.uwm.edu

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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 92 11:32:39 -0500
From: frosty at mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Frosty D. Snowman)
Subject: Low PH paper



Hello all!
  I just have a quick question that you might be able to help me with.  I
tried to make a sour mash and do not think it soured.  I really don't have
any way of knowing accurately the ph.

There is the question:  Does anyone know where I can buy some PH paper that
will go down to about 3.4 or 3.5  I have not been able to find anything this
low in any cataglogs.  I do not make wine yet, but I was under the impression
that for wine, you need low PH paper.   

Well I will keep this short....If anyone knows of someplace I can get this
kind of paper....Please Mail Me!!!!!

Happily Brewing
Frosty D. Snowman



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Date:    Tue, 7 Apr 1992 11:12:43 -0500 (CDT)
From: ISENHOUR at LAMBIC.FNAL.GOV (John L. Isenhour)
Subject: Yeast Biology

Yeast biology article digested from 

journal = Science, 20 Mar 92 (origin - Cell, 20 Mar 92) 
author = Michelle Hoffman (Science) 
title = Yeast Biology enters a suprising new phase, 
page = 1510
source = Gerald Fink, et al ( at  Whitehead Institute) and MIT
keyword (s) = Saccharaomyces cerevisiae / captive behavior
              filimentous phase / domestication / starvation 


The old Field vrs Laboratory observation style philosophies
recently took a turn for the interesting in the yeast arena.

It seemed to be commonly accepted by the majority of Saccharomyces
researchers that although most of its relatives (other similar molds) 
went through a filamentous phase and that Saccharomyces had been so 
domesticated over the years that it either never had the ability 
or had lost it.  Now researchers have reason so suspect their 
assumptions.

Fink first suspected a contaminant because it did not resemble the
normally observed structure, but Carlos Gimeno (grad. stu.) pointed out
that the alien could have successful sex with Saccharomyces. 

The missing phase seems to be caused by the fact that,
in the lab, the ingredients for growth are all provided for. 
The filamentious phase seems to be activated by starvation. 

Fink claims that given free reign the yeast would ...
 
"If you let just one cell divide at its maximal rate, it would form a
layer around the earth 10 feet deep after just 2 weeks."
(ed. everybody "pitch" in and LETS TRY IT!)

The new structure seems to be invoked by reduced environmental nitrogen 
levels, which causes buds not to not seperate.  A bud does not break away 
and that daughter bud does not breakaway. This "chaining" activity allows
the yeast to penetrate agar media, and has been hypothesised to be a
foraging mechanism. The yeast penetration effect seems to be regulated 
by nitrogen levels. 



John Isenhour
hopduvel!john at linac.fnal.gov
isenhour at lambic.fnal.gov


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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 92 11:12:09 PDT
From: Chris Quint <quint at hpindqj.cup.hp.com>
Subject: Hey Darryl - Lager question.

Hey Darryl,

I read your interesting post on Lager beers and it seems to make sense, 
but I'm puzzled by one thing.  You said Lagering provided a way to produce
beers in the warm summer months.  But I thought Lagers fermented at 
temperatures COLDER than normal - thats why people make Lagers in their
refridgerators.  Am I mistaken?  Or did you mean that in the summer the
beer WAS made in an icehouse or something?  Along those same lines, I 
thought a Steam beer was a Lager made at Ale temperatures (i.e. normal 
San Franciso temperatures - especially in the summer!).  And how could
SF's temp.s be warmer than anyone else's unless it was someone else's
icebox?  

Thanks,
Chris


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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 92 13:54:56 CDT
From: wiley at wiley.b11.ingr.com (Dave Wiley)
Subject: Re: Mail order prices

> Here is a price selection from the homebrew suppliers I have
> catalogs for.  Some of the catalogs are from last year, so
> prices may have changed.  Most of these places are on the
> West coast.

Thanks for posting the list! I did a similar (although not so thorough)
comparison last fall (and didn't post results :-().  What I found, is
that for items like bulk grain and bulk DME, the shipping cost becomes a
significant portion of the final bill.  As a result, I went looking for
the closest supplier rather than the cheapest.  The Brewhaus in
Knoxville, Tennessee did well for me on both counts.  Bulk pale malt
from Great Western Malting costs about $1.00 per # by the time it gets
to my door, whereas pale malt from the Brewhaus ($35 for 55lb) costs
about $0.82.  For hops shipping costs probably aren't that big a deal. 

It's just something to consider.

> Also, buying in bulk will lower these prices.

I've noticed that the people who have the best prices for bulk don't
have the best prices for small quantities (sometimes not even close)
and the reverse.

- --
david wiley               "To survive and enjoy the Tennessee Valley you
Intergraph Corporation     really have to like mucus.  Winter colds lead
205-730-6390               straight into spring and summer allergies.
wiley at wiley.b11.ingr.com   And then there's okra."   - me

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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 92 14:23:51 CDT
From: bliss at csrd.uiuc.edu (Brian Bliss)
Subject: Chimay


Is Chimay Ale aged in oak?

bb

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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 15:24:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu>
Subject: brewsheet.ps

For some reason, the file brewsheet.ps, as it appears on mthvax, has an
error: the character that is supposed to print as a box (for checking off
options) instead appears as a "member of" character (curved E).  You can
easily fix this by:

load brewsheet.ps into your favorite editor.  Find the line that looks
like this:

[ 300 ] /lasy10.300  at newfont

This line has the first occurrence of lasy10.300 in the file.  Two lines
down are two lines that look like this (where ... means I have left some
characters out): 
[<007FF801FFF...
  ...7FF8> 24 26 -3 3 27.673] 50  at dc

Replace those two lines with these four:

[<000000ffffffffffffc00003c00003c00003c00003c00003
c00003c00003c00003c00003c00003c00003c00003c00003
c00003c00003c00003c00003c00003c00003c00003ffffff
ffffff000000> 24 26 -3 3 27.673] 50  at dc

The brewsheet will now print properly.

=Spencer W. Thomas 		HSITN, U of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109
spencer.thomas at med.umich.edu	313-747-2778

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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 92 14:33:48 CDT
From: Michael J. Gerard <mjgerard at eng.auburn.edu>
Subject: Instruction-less hydrometer...
Full-Name: Michael J. Gerard

I have a hydrometer without instructions.  I'm trying to find out what the correction factor is for temperature.  I was wondering if anyone had some info on this.  

I usually take hydrometer readings right before pitching (at approximately 95 degrees F) and right before bottling (at approximately 65 degrees F).  I suspect that the correction factor is very low but I'm not sure.  Right now I feel that I might be comparing apples to oranges.  

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Mike Gerard

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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 92 15:56:11 -0400
From: bradley at adelphi.edu (Robert Bradley)
Subject: AHA info, please, for a "real homebrewer"

Agreed: you're not a "real homebrewer" unless you mash, malt your own
barley, grow your own hops and blow your own galss bottles :-)

I've been out of it for a while (too much relaxing?).  Can some kind
soul send me the when and where-to-write on the upcoming AHA conference?

Rob Bradley (bradley at adx.adelphi.edu)

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Date: 7 Apr 92 14:15:10 U
From: "Rad Equipment" <rad_equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Conference Party

Subject:  Conference Party                      Time:12:59 PM    Date:4/7/92
Isn't there a fairly decent multi-tap bar just South of the airport?  Like the
1870 House (?).   It's right next to the Airport Lounge, the local strip joint.

The tail-gate idea sounds fine to me, how easy is it to get to the stadium from
the Marc Plaza?

Regardless of where we all get to hang out as a group during the conference,
I'd like to suggest we make it easy to identify a fellow "Digester" on sight. 
How about we all put a mark of some sort on our name tag?  Like maybe a blue
(or some other color) dot or some such?  Just a thought...

RW...

      Russ Wigglesworth              CI$:      72300,61
|~~|  UCSF Medical Center            Internet: Rad Equipment at RadMac1.ucsf.edu
|HB|\ Dept. of Radiology, Rm. C-324  Voice:    415-476-3668 / 474-8126 (H)
|__|/ San Francisco, CA 94143-0628


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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 92 15:56:19 EDT
From: cjh at diaspar.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: re re: Why Lager?

Since you've brought the subject up---would you care to guess how it got
warm enough in San Francisco to make steam beer a necessity? I used to
spend an occasional weekend at conventions in Oakland or San Jose, so I
never believed Mark Twain's "The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer
in San Francisco." Then I arrived in SF proper in mid-July, driving down 101
with the fog flooding through the gaps in the coastal hills and virtually
covering the Golden Gate, and nearly froze downtown; and now a physicist
friend who taught in Sacramento for two years says that's standard (due to
rising air in the central valley sucking cold wet air off the ocean?).
   So how did it happen that ]room-temperature[ lagers were necessary? Were
they really brewing across the bay? Or is a daytime high of 50 not cold
enough even for the older styles of lagers? Or (global warming on the east
coast to the contrary---the Charles almost never freezes hard enough to
walk across any more) was it actually warmer in SF in the last century?
   For that matter, how/when did lagers spread compared to mechanical
refrigeration? 1840 is well before compressors, and somewhere around the
start of ice-block refrigerator cars for cattle carcases. The word means
"cave", I'm told because that's where the beer was stored to stay cool;
were there no caves or cool cellars available in SF? Or wasn't there enough
ice inland from SF in the winter (considering that there's skiing within
easy reach of LA) that summer brewing should have been possible?

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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 92 16:43:36 CDT
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
Subject: Corrections to Vienna (Laurie Fix)

The AHA has informed George and myself that they want to do a
second printing of our book. They have permitted us to correct
the typos in the first printing, and these are listed below. We
want to thank our many friends for their help in these matters.
We both are looking forward to Milwaukee, and meeting people in 
person.

Page  Line         Change
- ----  ----   ------------------------------
vii    4       "exectutive" to "executive"
1&2            remove "(reference 26)" from page 2 and insert it
               on line 7 of page 1
14     7&12    "emigration" to "immigration"
32     17      delete the phrase "...from elsewhere in Europe..."
37     10      "liscense" to "license"
41     26      "7.Yeast-here" to "7. Yeast-There"
45     5       "author" to "authors"
45              the last line should read as follows:

                       6 2/3 
                       ------ = 3 1/3 gallons
                         2

71     21&22    delete the sentence "After a hot water rinse the 
                equipment is ready for storage"
74     6        "ehy" to "they"
74     9        "Terihas" to "Teri has"
75     18       "desires" to "deserves"
82     26       "key" to "keg"
85     21       "Allegheng" to "Allegheny"
87     1        "once" to "one"
94              delete duplicate listing of alpha-acid unit
94     10       "measured" to "measure"
94     12       "it" to "It
96     17       "ehich" to "which"     
 


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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 92 17:25:53 -0500
From: volkerdi at MHD1.moorhead.msus.edu (Denise R. Capistran)
Subject: Baker's retort

Jack-

As a professional baker and chef, I find your analogy of using extracts
to be rather infuriating. I use extracts in my work every day. Am I less
of a baker because I don't soak vanilla beans in alcohol to extract the
essence? Am I less of a baker because I use mixes instead of gathering
together flour, leavening agents, sugar, etc., which is what a mix is
made of in the first place? 

In the future, I suggest that you refer yourself to a cook before making
such a weak argument, thus setting up a straw man to be knocked down.

I also find your "women/cooks" to be a fundamentally insulting phrase.
Not all women are cooks, nor are all cooks women, and I would estimate
that neither party agrees with your conjectures.

Denise


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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 19:40 CDT
From: Malt-Fermenter Gelly <GELLY at VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU>
Subject: Mystery Chunks...

Greetings, All!

This is my first submission to the digest. I have been brewing for 3 - 4 
months now, with 6 batches under my belt ( not literally :-> ). My recipes so
far have been extract, and up until recently have been fairly "purist" and
have not used corn sugar in the recipes, only malt extract for the fermantable
sugar (I did use honey once). I only use corn sugar for bottling.

My question/problem is this. I recently made a batch with corn sugar as one of
the ingredients, but it accounted for only about 15% of the fermentables. 
I boiled it with the rest of the wort for an hour, then tossed it into the
carboy. When it was cool enough, I pitched.
The next morning, There were big whitish chunks floating on the top, and 
suspended throughout the liquid. This did not appear to be trub, as I saw
that settle out before I went to bed. This looked nothing like anything
I had ever seen in the carboy. The fermentation also had not started yet, and 
was about 12 hours behind schedule (based on all previous fermentations).

Was this the corn sugar coagulating out, perhaps? Or might it have been the
yeast? (it was rehydrated Edme, what I've always used)

Any thoughts or enlightenments would be appreciated. See you in Milwaukee!

    |\/\/\/|
    |      |
    | (.)(.)  
   C        )    _________ Drink
    |   ___T  __/          HomeBrew, dudes.      
    |    /
   /_____\	

Mitch Gelly -- gelly at vaxa.cis.uwosh.edu

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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 92 17:44:30 PDT
From: darrylri at microsoft.com
Subject: re:  Hey Darryl -- Lager Question

ingate!quint at hpindqj.cup.hp.com (Chris Quint) writes:
> I read your interesting post on Lager beers and it seems to make sense, 
> but I'm puzzled by one thing.  You said Lagering provided a way to produce
> beers in the warm summer months.  But I thought Lagers fermented at 
> temperatures COLDER than normal - thats why people make Lagers in their
> refridgerators.  Am I mistaken?  Or did you mean that in the summer the
> beer WAS made in an icehouse or something?  Along those same lines, I 
> thought a Steam beer was a Lager made at Ale temperatures (i.e. normal 
> San Franciso temperatures - especially in the summer!).  And how could
> SF's temp.s be warmer than anyone else's unless it was someone else's
> icebox?  

Hmmm, I didn't express myself well, did I?  Lagering was a means 
to being able to consume beer in the warm summer months, not 
produce it in that season.  It required brewing a full year's 
worth of beer in the cold winter and finding some cache that 
stayed cold during the summer, like caves in the hills. 

San Francisco never gets down to the necessary lagering temps 
due to the strong moderating effect of the ocean.  Before 
widespread mechanical refrigeration (a product from the 1880s, 
well after Steam beer was created for the benefit of the 
'49ers), there was no way to make a lager beer in SF, regardless 
of season.  Any attempt to do so would produce a more estery 
beer that fermented explosively. 

		--Darryl Richman


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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 92 17:49:07 PDT
From: darrylri at microsoft.com
Subject: re: Why Lager?

ingate!leafusa!diaspar.hq.ileaf.com!cjh at uunet.uu.net writes:
> Since you've brought the subject up---would you care to guess how it got
> warm enough in San Francisco to make steam beer a necessity? I used to
> spend an occasional weekend at conventions in Oakland or San Jose, so I
> never believed Mark Twain's "The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer
> in San Francisco." Then I arrived in SF proper in mid-July, driving down 101
> with the fog flooding through the gaps in the coastal hills and virtually
> covering the Golden Gate, and nearly froze downtown; and now a physicist
> friend who taught in Sacramento for two years says that's standard (due to
> rising air in the central valley sucking cold wet air off the ocean?).
>    So how did it happen that ]room-temperature[ lagers were necessary? Were
> they really brewing across the bay? Or is a daytime high of 50 not cold
> enough even for the older styles of lagers? Or (global warming on the east
> coast to the contrary---the Charles almost never freezes hard enough to
> walk across any more) was it actually warmer in SF in the last century?

Well, anecdotal evidence aside, it is usually quite pleasant in SF
(ignoring the rain) from spring through fall, and even a 50s high is
warmer than most traditional lager primary temperatures.  For example,
Pilsner Urquell never lets their beer rise above 48F, and during
most of the time it is in the neighborhood of 40F.  Of course,
that's only the primary;  during secondary, the temperature is 34F.
This is not a common occurance in Baghdad by the Bay.  However, 50F
is warm enough to give most lager yeasts a real kick.

>    For that matter, how/when did lagers spread compared to mechanical
> refrigeration? 1840 is well before compressors, and somewhere around the
> start of ice-block refrigerator cars for cattle carcases. The word means
> "cave", I'm told because that's where the beer was stored to stay cool;
> were there no caves or cool cellars available in SF? Or wasn't there enough
> ice inland from SF in the winter (considering that there's skiing within
> easy reach of LA) that summer brewing should have been possible?

I believe that the pioneering work of Dreher (Brauerei Schweicat 
in Vienna) and Seydlmayer (Spaten in Munich) with respect to 
refrigeration occured in the late 1880s.  Fix has the date in 
his "Vienna".  The lager revolution required a number of events,
but it began with the understanding of how to culture pure yeast
strains en mass.  Cheap glass also helped.  But until mechanical
refrigeration, the beer generally couldn't be made in the summer.

The word "lager" is from the German word "lagern" which means 
"to store". I'm not aware of any caves in the SF area that would 
have been local enough to keep the cold temperatures throughout 
a summer. 

And, of course, you look at distances with a jaundiced, modern 
eye, as do I. But remember, 140 years ago, 20 miles was a great 
distance and required most of a day. Consider that it took a 
week to transport the mirror up to Mt. Hamilton in the San Jose 
area at the turn of the century, and it was only about 25 miles 
away. The skiing in LA is in Wrightwood, a solid 75 miles from 
downtown, along a modern, highly engineered road. To get to an 
ice field in LA during the winter, using horse drawn wagons 
would be well nigh impossible. 

		--Darryl Richman


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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 92 19:47:23 PDT
From: polstra!norm at uunet.UU.NET (Norm Hardy)
Subject: Lager vs Ale

Darryl Richman said some very good things about the comment 4/7 and I would
like to add a couple more:  
[1] In Germany the ales (alts/kolsch's and I think weizens) are conditioned
    (lagered) near freezing for up to a month to make for a smoother taste.
    I remember an alt in Duesseldorf with a label that said "top fermented
    lagered beer"  (in German of course).
[2] There is no such thing as an isipid bland lager beer in Germany (unless
    you happen upon an American Bud in who knows I don't know where place).
    
Most homebrewers that return from Europe have a better idea of how good a
lager beer can really be.  That is the challenge; to do it at home.

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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 92 22:35:59 CST
From: hopduvel!john at linac.fnal.gov (John Isenhour)
Subject: Books for the serious Yeastmeister

I used to post these type lists to HBD a coupla years ago, I was looking 
to improve my brewing library and wanted to share. 


> Panchal. Yeast Strain Selection. (Biprocess Technology Ser.).
>      368p. 06/1990. $125.00. (ISBN 0-8247-8276-3). Dekker, Marcel,
>      Incorporated.
> 
> Campbell, I. & Duffus, J. H., editors. Yeast. (The Practical
>      Approach Ser.). 308p. 1988. $54.00. (ISBN 0-947946-80-2, IRL
>      Pr); Paper. $36.00. (ISBN 0-947946-79-9). Oxford University
>      Press, Incorporated.
> 
> 
> Walton & Yarranton. Molecular & Cell Biology of Yeasts. 05/1989.
>      $125.95. (ISBN 0-442-20711-5). Van Nostrand Reinhold.
> 
> 
> Spencer, J. F. & Spencer, D. M., editors. Yeast Technology.
>      (Illus.). 415p. 12/1989. $129.00. (ISBN 0-387-50689-6).
>      Springer-Verlag New York, Incorporated.
> 
> 
> Barnett, J. A.; Payne, R. W. & Yarrow, D. Yeasts: Characteristics
>      & Identification. LC 83-8390. 811p. 01/1984. $170.00. (ISBN
>      0-521-25296-2). Cambridge University Press.
> 
> 
> Spencer, J. F., editor. Yeast Genetics: Fundamental & Applied
>      Aspects. (Springer Series in Molecular Biology). (Illus.).
>      533p. 08/1983. $110.00. (ISBN 0-387-90793-9). Springer-Verlag
>      New York, Incorporated.
> 
> 
> Skinner, F. A., editor. Biology & Activities of Yeasts. LC
>      80-41362. (Society for Applied Bacteriology Symposia Ser.:
>      No. 9). 1981. $94.00. (ISBN 0-12-648080-X). Academic Press,
>      Incorporated.
> 
> 
> Broach, James., editor. Cell Cycle & Cell Biology: The Molecular &
>      Cellular Biology of the Yeast Saccharomyces, Vol. Three.
>      (Monograph Ser.: No. 21B). (Illus.). 650p. 1991. Hardcover
>      text edition. $97.00. (ISBN 0-87969-356-8); Paperback text
>      edition. $55.00. (ISBN 0-87969-364-9). Cold Spring Harbor
>      Laboratory Press.
> 
> 
> Broach, James., editor. Gene Expression: The Molecular & Cellular
>      Biology of the Yeast Saccharomyces, Vol. Two. (Monograph
>      Ser.: No. 21C). (Illus.). 725p. 1991. Hardcover text edition.
>      $97.00. (ISBN 0-87969-357-6); Paperback text edition. $55.00.
>      (ISBN 0-87969-365-7). Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory Press.
> 
> 
> Broach, James., editor. Genome Dynamics, Protein Synthesis &
>      Energetics: The Molecular & Cellular Biology of the Yeast
>      Saccharomyces, Vol. One. (Monograph Ser.: No. 21A). (Illus.).
>      725p. 1991. Hardcover text edition. $97.00. (ISBN
>      0-87969-355-X); Paperback text edition. $55.00. (ISBN
>      0-87969-363-0). Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory Press.
> 
> 
> Abelson, John N.; Simon, Melvin I.; Guthrie, Christine & Fink,
>      Gerald R., editors. Methods in Enzymology, Vol. 194: Guide to
>      Yeast Genetics & Molecular Biology. 933p. 01/1991. $95.00.
>      (ISBN 0-12-182095-5); $49.95 comb bdg. (ISBN 0-12-310670-2).
>      Academic Press, Incorporated.
> 
> Rose, A. H. & Harrison, J. S., editors. The Yeasts, Vol. 4: Yeast
>      Organelles. 2nd ed.  (Serial Publication Ser.). 765p.
>      07/1991. $149.00. (ISBN 0-12-596414-5). Academic Press,
>      Incorporated.
> 
> 
> Barnett, J. A.; Payne, R. W. & Yarrow, D. Yeasts: Characteristics
>      & Identification. 2nd ed.  Contrib. by Barnett, Linda.
>      (Illus.). 1000p. 04/1991. $225.00. (ISBN 0-521-35056-5).
>      Cambridge University Press.
> 
> 
> Rose, Mark D. Methods in Yeast Genetics: A Laboratory Course
>      Manual. (Illus.). 200p. 1990. Hardcover text edition. $34.00.
>      (ISBN 0-87969-354-1). Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory Press.
> 
> 
> Halasz. Use of Yeast Biomass in Food Production. 12/1990. $179.95.
>      (ISBN 0-8493-5866-3, TP248). C R C Press, Incorporated.
> 
> 
> Kockova-Kratochvilova, Anna. Yeasts & Yeast-Like Organisms. LC
>      89-8936. 528p. 06/1990. Library binding - adult. $110.00.
>      (ISBN 0-89573-229-7). V C H Publishers, Incorporated.
> 
> 
> Nasim, Anwar; Young, Paul & Johnson, Byron F., editors. Molecular
>      Biology of the Fission Yeast. (Cell Biology Ser.). 545p.
>      10/1989. $107.00. (ISBN 0-12-514085-1). Academic Press,
>      Incorporated.
> 
> 
> Laaser, G. Vergleichende Systematische Studien An
>      Basidiomycetenheften Unter Besondeerer Beruecksichtigung der
>      Hefestadien. (Bibliotheca Mycologica Ser.: Vol. 130). (GER).
>      (Illus.). 336p. 09/1989. Paperback text edition. $84.50x.
>      (ISBN 3-443-59031-4, Gebrueder Borntraeger Germany). Lubrecht
>      & Cramer, Limited.
> 
> 
> Finnegan, John. Yeast Disorders: An Understanding & Nutritional
>      Therapy. 2nd ed.  112p. 03/1989. Paper. $8.00. (ISBN
>      0-927425-00-9). Elysian Arts.
> 
> 
> Barr, Philip J. Yeast Genetic Engineering. (The Biotechnology
>      Ser.). 368p. 08/1989. Hardcover text edition. $79.95. (ISBN
>      0-409-90117-2). Butterworth-Heinemann.
> 
> 
> Finnegan, John. Yeast, Parasites, & Viruses. 160p. (Orig.).
>      05/1989. Paper. $10.00. (ISBN 0-927425-03-3). Elysian Arts.
> 
> 
> Rose, A. H. & Harrison, J. S., editors. The Yeasts, Vol. 3:
>      Metabolism & Physiology of Yeasts. 2nd ed.  635p. 1989.
>      $118.00. (ISBN 0-12-596413-7). Academic Press, Incorporated.
> 
> 
> Verachtert & DeMot. Yeasts. (Biotechnology & Biocatalysis Ser.:
>      No. 5). 536p. 11/1989. $150.00. (ISBN 0-8247-8142-2). Dekker,
>      Marcel, Incorporated.
> 
> 
> Van Uden, Nicolau J., editor. Alcohol Toxicity in Yeasts &
>      Bacteria. 304p. 10/1988. $179.95. (ISBN 0-8493-5167-7,
>      QR151). C R C Press, Incorporated.
> 
> 
> Weijman, A. C., editor. The Expanding Realm of Yeast-Like Fungi:
>      Proceeding of an International Symposium on the Perspectives
>      of Taxonomy, Ecology & Phylogeny of Yeast, & Yeast-Like
>      Fungi, Amersfoort, The Netherland, 3-7 Aug. 1987. 512p.
>      06/1988. $125.75. (ISBN 0-444-42900-X). Elsevier Science
>      Publishing Company, Incorporated.
> 
> 
> Kirsop, B. E. & Kurtzman, C. P., editors. Yeasts. Contrib. by
>      Nakase, T. Yarrow, D. (Living Resources for Biotechnology
>      Ser.). (Illus.). 256p. 11/1988. $32.50. (ISBN 0-521-35227-4).
>      Cambridge University Press.
> 
> 
> Berry, D. R.; Russell, I. & Stewart, G. G., editors. Yeast
>      Biotechnology. (Illus.). 512p. 11/1987. Hardcover text
>      edition. $125.00x. (ISBN 0-04-574042-9). Unwin Hyman.
> 
> 
> Rose, A. H. & Harrison, J. S. The Yeasts: Edited Treatise, Vol. 1.
>      2nd. ed.  391p. 1987. $97.00. (ISBN 0-12-596411-0). Academic
>      Press, Incorporated.
> 
> 
> Rose, A. H. & Harrison, J. S., editors. The Yeasts, Vol. 2. 2nd
>      ed.  282p. 1987. $95.00. (ISBN 0-12-596412-9). Academic
>      Press, Incorporated.
> 
> 
> Klar, Amar J. & Strathern, Jeffrey N., editors. Mechanisms of
>      Yeast Recombination. (Current Communications in Molecular
>      Biology Ser.). 193p. (Orig.). 08/1986. Paper. $30.00. (ISBN
>      0-87969-195-6). Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory Press.
> 
> 
> Strathern, Jeffrey N.; Broach, James R. & Jones, Elizabeth W.,
>      editors. Molecular Biology of the Yeast Saccharomyces:
>      Metabolism & Gene Expression. LC 81-68203. (Monograph Ser.:
>      No. 11B). 03/1985. Repr. of 1981 ed. Hardcover text edition.
>      $45.00. (ISBN 0-87969-180-8). Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory
>      Press.
> 
> 
> Strathern, Jeffrey N.; Broach, James R. & Jones, Elizabeth W.,
>      editors. Molecular Biology of the Yeast Saccharomyces: Life
>      Cycle & Inheritance. LC 81-68895. (Monograph Ser.: No. 11A).
>      03/1985. Repr. of 1981 ed. Hardcover text edition. $45.00.
>      (ISBN 0-87969-179-4). Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory Press.
> 
> 
> Arnold, Wilfred N., editor. Yeast Cell Envelopes: Biochemistry,
>      Biophysics, & Ultrastructure, Vols. I & II. 08/1981. Vol. I,
>      144p. $99.00. (ISBN 0-8493-5965-1, QK617). Vol. Ii, 192p;
>      $119.00. (ISBN 0-8493-5966-X, QK617). C R C Press,
>      Incorporated.
> 
> 
> Barnett, J. A.; Payne, R. W. & Yarrow, D. A Guide to Identifying &
>      Classifying Yeasts. LC 79-11136. (Illus.). 11/1979. $99.00.
>      (ISBN 0-521-22762-3). Cambridge University Press.
> 
> 
> Phaff, H. J.; Miller, J. W. & Mrak, E. M. The Life of Yeasts. rev.
>      & enl. ed.  (Illus.). 1978. Hardcover text edition. $25.50x.
>      (ISBN 0-674-53325-9). Harvard University Press.
> 
> 
> Iwata, Kazuo., editor. Yeasts & Yeast-like Microorganisms in
>      Medical Science: Proceedings of the Second International
>      Specialized Symposium on Yeasts. 346p. 1976. Paper. $52.50.
>      (ISBN 0-86008-104-4, U of Tokyo Japan). Columbia University
>      Press.
> 
> 
> Barnett, Pankhurst. A New Key to the Yeasts. LC 73-86076. 273p.
>      07/1974. $119.00. (ISBN 0-444-10580-8, Biomedical Pr); Paper.
>      $12.25 o.p. (ISBN 0-444-10624-3). Elsevier Science Publishing
>      Company, Incorporated.
> 
> 
> Neumann, I. Biotaxonomische Untersuchungen an Einigen Hefen der
>      Gattung Saccharomyces. 1972. $16.00x. (ISBN 3-7682-5440-2).
>      Lubrecht & Cramer, Limited.
> 
> 


John Isenhour, The Hop Devil                       
renaissance scientist and AHA/HWBTA certified Beer Judge 
"If you let one (yeast) cell devide at its maximal rate for
just two weeks, you would have a layer around the earth 10 feet deep"
 - Fink

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #859, 04/08/92