FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re: Y'all come from Micah Millspaw (Mark Stevens) <stevens at stsci.edu>
  re: Why Lager? (darrylri)
  Extract Brewing (gkushmer)
  Re: Brewpubs in Dallas? (michael_serafin)
  turbinado sugar (Russ Gelinas)
  Mead & Honey Beers (Alan Mayman)
  Raspberry beer, plus 'Beer King' article (Mark J. Easter)
  Oh - Good Lord (Poem) (916)351-5514" <JMYERS at T1ACC1.intel.com>
  CR Sainkley/ Brewpubs in Dallas (George Fix) (George J Fix)
  Grain disposal (Dances with Workstations)
  spent grain disposal  (Eric Mintz)
  Mead making (Daniel Roman)
  Re:  Negative Pressurein the Blow Off (The Rider)
  Plastic Carboys (yoost)
  RE: Homebrew Digest #857 (April 06, 1992) (Dances with Workstations)
  Malt in Garbage Disposal (Rob Nelson)
  Re: Meeting in Milwaukee (David William Bell)


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[Please do not send me requests for back issues!]
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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 92 08:51:04 EDT
From: (Mark Stevens) <stevens at stsci.edu>
Subject: Re: Y'all come from Micah Millspaw


I thought Micah Millspaw's idea of a homebrew digester get-together
at the AHA conference was a great idea! Tom Quinn's suggestion in
HBD857 to get together for a tailgate party at a Brewers game was
an even GREATER idea. I say, "Let's do it!"
Checking my handy-dandy AL schedule, I see that Brewers are playing
the Oakland A's at home the 8th 9th & 10th. Sounds like a party
opportunity knocking...

- ---Mark Stevens
   stevens at stsci.edu


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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 92 07:08:01 PDT
From: darrylri at microsoft.com
Subject: re: Why Lager?

Although a number of folks have advanced the idea that lagering was
created as a means to a watery, tasteless beer, that is putting the
cart before the horse.  Lagering was discovered at least a thousand
years ago, as a means of providing beer during the summer months
when it was just to warm to make any drinkable beer.  These beers
were crisper and cleaner in character, and although it took a lot
longer to make them, they were held in high esteem.

As you'll find out in much greater detail in the Fix's book
"Vienna", big time lagering came into being in the 1840s, and
quickly spread around the world.  (After all, it was the brewers'
dogged determination to make a lager in warm San Francisco in the
1850s that gave us Ste ...uh, California Common beer.)

The neat thing about these beers is that they had a shelf life.
They could be transported great distances, to other markets, and
the brewery could expand its range beyond the distance a dray cart
could move in a day.  In reading "Breweries of the Pacific Northwest"
I was struck by how the big breweries in the area (Blitz-Weinhard,
Olympia, and Rainier) pretty much started out exporting down the
coast and even to Asia and Central America.  Look at Will Anderson's
"From Beer to Eternity" and notice the old ads, which guarantee the
beer not to sour.  This was the boon of lagering.  It is what allowed
a single brewer to produce essentially one style of beer and market
it all over the world.

So, although there are fruity lagers and clean ales available, it
is the period of storage that allows the beer to become a completely
stable product that makes it worthwhile to the big brewers.  There is
a large pull in this, making it economically better for the brewery
with designs to brew it.

		--Darryl Richman


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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 92 10:18:20 EDT
From: gkushmer at Jade.Tufts.EDU
Subject: Extract Brewing


<Warning:  This is a bit long.>



In the last HBD, Jack "Controversial- me?" Schmidling said:

 You can not negate the value and effort of people who DO devote "the time, 
 money or desire to go all grain" simply by declaring that YOU don't have the 
 time, anymore than my statement reduces the value of what you are doing.
 
 Although the definition of a "real homebrewer" might be subject to debate, I 
 don't think there can be much debate about the fact that making extract beer 
 is NOT really brewing.  That's not to say it isn't fun, rewarding and great 
 beer, just that mashing is a fundamental step in the brewing process, without 
 which, one is simply making beer.

As there is no formal definition of "homebrewer" that I know of that gets into
the complexities of the style, I would say that there can be debate on the
issue until our fingers turn blue.

I would say that extract homebrewing IS real hombrewing.  You might be 
removing a step, but your comparison (not quoted above) between mash/extract
brewing and scratch/box baking is not valid.  When I extract, I experiment
with a variety of specialty grains, adjuncts, and other bits and pieces that
show I am not altering a preset recipe (unlike someone who cooks from a box). 

Then again, the above-quoted statement contradicts itself.  At one point it is
saying that you cannot be a homebrewer unless you mash.  Then he turns
around and says that if one does not mash, then "one is simply making beer."

Excuse me?  If you are making beer then aren't you a "homebrewer?"  

But Jack's basic premis rests on "work."  He has this ill-conceived notion that
the more steps you add in your process, the more of a homebrewer you are.  

Well, let's take this to its logical conclusion.  Jack, do you grow all
your own hops?  Your grain?  Do you culture all your yeast?  Do you process
all the water that you use?  After all, you'll be in direct control of all 
the factors that determine the quality of the ingredients as well as their
ultimate taste.  How can you be a homebrewer unless you can control all of
these factors as well?  

And what if one adds adjuncts?  Since a mash is just a step in getting the
sugars, then is one not a "real" homebrewer if he/she does not grow the
corn/cane/beet sugar his/herself?  The same is with honey or any other type
of sugar.

Are you then "less" of a homebrewer if you do not bottle but switch to kegging?

This kind of reasoning does not cut it.  If you use this method of 
determination then you must take it to its logical conclusion or else you
risk being a hypocrite yourself.  Obviously it is flawed in its simplicity 
as it ignores the fact that there are people who do not go through these
steps, yet brew their own beer (hence "homebrewer.")

Is there a dividing line?  I met someone on the Brew Free or Die trip that
takes cans of hopped extract, boils it, and adds yeast later.  He is not
working as hard as  I am, but he is learning.  And he is a homebrewer. 
Maybe, to please people like Jack, we need to say that there is a 
level of "apprentice" brewers, "journeymen" brewers (extract/grains)
and "master" brewers (mash).  While this ignores some steps, it might be a
a better solution.

Thing of it is, though, is that there is an arrogance about Jack's
statements.

Jack's statements indicate that he has achieved "satori" so
to speak and that he is on the uppermost level possible so far as 
homebrewing is concerned (at least in his eyes).  Now Jack, it seems safe
to say that you are older than I and that you have considerably
more experience than I do at homebrewing.  That, to me, means that 
you are a homebrewer who has more experience and is most likely much better
than I.

But you cannot justifiably belittle my efforts.  I use extract and I learn.  
I experiment and make beer.  Fact of the matter is that I spend considerable
amounts of time and effort at home making my own beer.  To me, that is enough
to get on my feet and say "I am a homebrewer, as real as real can be."


- --gk

===============================================================================

"I have special place in my heart for the criminally insane, but YOU
 have worn out your welcome."   
					-The Tick-
- ----------------------------
gkushmer at jade.tufts.edu
- ----------------------------

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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 92 09:22:46 CDT
From: michael_serafin at SEMATECH.ORG
Subject: Re: Brewpubs in Dallas?

From:	NAME: Michael Serafin               
	FUNC: 200                             
	TEL: (512) 356-3264                   <SERAFIN.MICHAEL at A1 at VAXEN>
To:	"homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com" at INTERNET


          Eric Mintz asks about brewpubs in Dallas.
          
          Sorry Eric, but you'll find that brewpubs do not exist in the 
          entire state of Texas.  The liqour laws of the state are written 
          such that they do not permit such an operation.  Some people ARE 
          trying to change this. 

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Date:    Mon, 6 Apr 1992 11:00:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: turbinado sugar

  I found some turbinado sugar in a health food (!?) store.  What were
the recipes that called for it?  English Ales?  There was also some Black
Cherry extract, but at $11/16 oz. (= 5 lbs.) I just don't think so.....

  What is the "candy sugar" that is used in some Belgium recipes?

Russ

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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 92 11:46:42 -0400
From: Alan Mayman <maymanal at scvoting.fvo.osd.mil>
Subject: Mead & Honey Beers

Greetings All,

I read an interesting tidbit in the local paper over the weekend I thought I 
would share.  Honey is actually bee vomit!  They munch on some pollen, tool on
over to the hive and regurgitate accordingly.  Isnt that a hoot.

The astute reader might be asking, "Well, why exactly are you telling us this 
Alan?" to which I can reply that knowledge for it's own sake is a good thing!  

And just think, next time someone is mooching too many of your favorite tupelo
honey ales, just hold your glass up to the light and say, "You know, that 
fermented bee vomit is particularly toothsome", it might just help.

	:) Alan (:

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Date: Mon, 06 Apr 92 08:30:02 PDT
From: Mark J. Easter <easterm at ccmail.orst.edu>
Subject: Raspberry beer, plus 'Beer King' article

     I've been interested in making a raspberry beer as well, but
was thinking about substituting a couple of cans of frozen
concentrated raspberry juice rather than the 6-8 lbs of fruit
that most recipes call for.  Has anybody tried it?  Several
companies market the stuff, most prominantly Welch's.   After
checking out the prices for frozen raspberries, this seemed to
offer a good cost savings.

     And now for something completely different...pardon me if
this has already been posted however I read an interesting
article in "Outside" magazine (April, 1992) about Alan Eames
(a.k.a. the beer king) and his travels around the world
investigating indigenous beer styles.  It is pretty interesting
and fairly well written although they make a few technical boo-
boo's (such as describing beer made of "roasted hops and
barley").

Cheers,

Mark Easter
easter at fsl.orst.edu


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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 92 10:12:36 PDT
From: "JOHN MYERS, INTEL FM3-35, (916)351-5514" <JMYERS at T1ACC1.intel.com>
Subject: Oh - Good Lord (Poem)

    			Oh - Good Lord

    	The Horse and Mule live thirty years,
    	Yet know nothing of wine and beers.

    	Most goats and Sheep at twenty die,
    	And have never tasted Scotch or Rye.

    	A Cow drinks water by the ton,
    	So at eighteen is mostly done.

    	The Dog in milk and water soaks,
    	And then in twelve years he croaks.

    	Your Modest sober, bone-dry Hen,
    	Lays eggs for Nogs, then dies at ten.    	

    	All Animals are strickly dry,
    	They sinless live and swiftly die.

    	But sinful, Ginful, beer soaked man,
    	Sirvives three score years and ten.

    	While some of us, though mighty few,
    	Stay sozzled till we're ninety-two.

    				Origin unknown.	    						

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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 92 09:55:03 CDT
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
Subject: CR Sainkley/ Brewpubs in Dallas (George Fix)

There are several people around here who would like to
subscribe to the Celebrator Beer News. Can anyone help us
with this?

C.R., I tried to contact you directly but our local mailer
does not like the ! in grumpy!cr at uunet.uu.net. Do you have
an alternate? 

Brewpubs are still illegal in Texas, although this will likely
change in the future. We do have one micro ( Dallas Brewing Co.)
located in the West End district near downtown. The brewer is
Don Thompson (the AHA brewer of the year in 1983). Before I joined
BRD, I served as a consultant to them. Give them a ring at the
the following to arrange a tour:

   214-871-7990

They are nice folks, and the owner (Allen Dray) has over a million
invested in the place.



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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 92 13:52:30 EDT
From: Dances with Workstations <buchman at marva1.ENET.dec.com>
Subject: Grain disposal

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 92 14:39:57 MST
From: Eric Mintz <ericm at bach.ftcollinsco.NCR.COM>
Subject: spent grain disposal 

Eric Mintz asks:

> I haven't had the huevos to try this myself yet but... has anyone dumped
> their spent grains in a kitchen sink garbage disposal?

Dumping spent grains (or anything organic for that matter) down the disposal
is ecologically unsound if your waste water ends up in body of water which
is not in the best of health (in my case, the Chesapeake Bay). What happens
is that the waste that gets into the water introduces an overabundance of
nutrients. That might not sound so bad, but the nutrients are ground so fine
that they are usable only by microscopic organisms, which reproduce more than
they should and leech out much of the dissolved oxygen in the water. Big
critters like fish, oysters, and crabs suffer as a result.

Besides, you don't really feel like forcing ten pounds of grain into such
a small opening, do you? Sounds messier than bags.

> Any other
> creative ways to dump spent grains without a mess?

I compost my excess grains and/or mulch with them; it works well, but
not everybody has a backyard to use for this. A very "creative" idea
for getting rid of the grains was suggested by Jack S. and others:
make beer bread! There was a thread on that topic recently;
Jack can probably give you details.
			Good luck,
				Jim Buchman

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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 92 13:54:04 EDT
From: tix!roman at uunet.UU.NET (Daniel Roman)
Subject: Mead making

Scott.Barrett writes:

>After a dozen extract-based batches of various beer styles, I find myself
>tempted to try my hand at mead making.  Rather than being straightforward about
>it and making a 5 gallon batch, I would like to split the batch after primary
>fermentation into a mead, a metheglin, and a fruit mead (hyppocras?).
Although I'm far from a mead making expert, I do have a couple of
batches under my belt and I did what you propose to do with my first
batch.  I make examples of sparkling, still, metheglin, etc. and all
combinations.
>
>        1)  Are there pitfalls (other than sanitation) associated with adding
>fermentables (in the fruit case) at the time I rack to the secondary fermenter?
No, I did not have any problems at all.

>        2)  Any suggestions on herbs or spices (and appropriate quantities)
>that may make for an interesting metheglin?  Should I prepare an infusion (like
>making tea) or use a dry-hopping approach?
I used cranberries and really liked the results alot.  Also tried hops
and misc. spices and was not too thrilled with that (but that's me).  My
preference is to sparkling fruit meads.

>        3)  What are recommended types of yeast for mead making?  Any tips on
>adjusting the amount of honey (to achieve a medium sweetness) when using
>champagne vs. ale (or other) yeast?
Stick with champagne to start with.  You'd need a good ale yeast to
expect it to tolerate the alcohol levels that mead is supposed to have
(if you go by classic definitions).  I guess it would not be mead then
but I don't know what you would call it (mead cooler?).  Off track but
isn't beer with the alcohol removed just a malt beverage and no longer
beer?  How are companies advertising their non-alcoholic brews?

>        4)  Am I totally crazy with this batch-splitting plan?
*I* don't think you are, but maybe I'm crazy!  :-)
______________________________________________________________________
Dan Roman           |     ///          Internet:  roman_d at timeplex.com
Timeplex Inc.       | \\\///              GEnie:  D.ROMAN1
Woodcliff Lake, NJ  |  \XX/ Only AMIGA!      Homebrew is better brew.
======================================================================

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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 13:33:53 -0800
From: mfetzer at ucsd.edu (The Rider)
Subject: Re:  Negative Pressurein the Blow Off

 ZLPAJGN%LUCCPUA.bitnet at UICVM.UIC.EDU writes:

     1) Will the small amount of HCl-ated water that was sucked into the
     wort do any damage?

Eh, how much bleach did you have in that water? If it was a normal
disinfecting strength solution you've got nothing to worry about...

     2) Will the exposure to the air (when I switched from the blowoff
     tube to the lock) effect the wort?

Not at all.

     3) Is there now a possibility that, having replaced the blowoff
     with a lock, any further fluxuation in temperature/pressure will
     suck in (contaminating) air through the lock?

If you're very worried about that, or if you have large temperature
fluctuations, put Vodka or better yet grain alcohol into the air lock. If
it gets sucked in, you get a bit of extra kick in the beer. *grin* But, I
don't really think it's a good idea to keep the stuff where the temp.
fluctuates too much. I've no idea what max/min temps you're talking about,
but beware that ale yeast goes to sleep around 60-65F, and at 80F you're
making fruit punch and not beer any more. I suggest a nice insulation wrap,
cut off jacket for a water heater works great and is cheap.

Mike

- --
Michael Fetzer
Internet:      mfetzer at ucsd.edu        uucp:           ...!ucsd!mfetzer
Bitnet:        FETZERM at SDSC            
HEPnet/SPAN:   SDSC::FETZERM           or  27.1::FETZERM


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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 92 15:38:35 -0500
From: yoost at judy.indstate.edu
Subject: Plastic Carboys


The general consensus is:

Pastic Carboys can be used fine although for sanitation purposes Glass is better.

I have since found a source for Glass Carboys for $15.00 !

 -John Yoost

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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 92 18:38:13 EDT
From: Dances with Workstations <buchman at marva1.ENET.dec.com>
Subject: RE: Homebrew Digest #857 (April 06, 1992)

Hi Jack,
	I would like to respectfully differ with your definition of a
"brewer" as (necessarily) one who mashes the grain rather than using
extracts.

> It is more like the difference between baking with cake 
> mixes and baking from scratch.  Women/cooks accept the difference, why can't 
> homebrewers?

This is a very good analogy, since both involve producing a food product
from grain; but I would propose that the person baking a cake from "scratch"
is much more like an extract brewer. Malt extract is our "flour". Whole grain
brewers are people who grind their own flour before beginning to bake. Both
of these people are obviously baking. My extract beers are brewed by
following fairly complex procedures to control parameters for bitterness,
strength, flavor, color, aroma, and other factors; it is much more complex
a process than baking a cake from mix. And some of my recipes include
a pound or two of specialty grains.

A cake mix person would be like the brewer who
buys one of those gizmoes where all you do is add the appropriate amount
of water, put it in a dark place, and drink your beer three weeks later.
Such kits were described in the digest last year, though I've never
seen one. Even this person is "brewing".

> Although the definition of a "real homebrewer" might be subject to debate, I 
> don't think there can be much debate about the fact that making extract beer 
> is NOT really brewing.

There can be plenty of debate. What is "brewing", after all? It is producing
beer, an alcoholic beverage, from fermentable ingredients in a controlled
fashion. The first half of Papazian's book discusses brewing from extract.
It ain't called The Complete Joy of Home Beer-Making.

>  That's not to say it isn't fun, rewarding and great 
> beer, just that mashing is a fundamental step in the brewing process, without 
> which, one is simply making beer.

Why draw the line at mashing? Granted that it gives you control of more
factors and is greatly rewarding, and I'm looking forward to my first
full mash brew. But malting is even more fundamental to the brewing
process. Shouldn't real brewers also malt?

And what about kegging ? It can be argued that you're not really brewing
in the traditional sense if you then condition your product in bottles.
I've heard it said on the digest that "it isn't really Guinness unless
it's on draft [in Ireland]" (that was before Guinness Draught in cans).

You can draw the line in a lot of places; but what I've always liked about
this digest is that people seldom do. We all brew, and we all love to
talk about it. It's great to be able to exchange views with the likes of
George Fix and Charlie P. in this kind of forum.

(but this does open the possibility of a deluge of slogans along the "REAL
men" or "REAL" programmers line. e.g.,
"REAL brewers don't use starters. If the yeast doesn't like my beer,
it doesn't deserve it."
"REAL brewers don't use hops pellets. How can you tell it from turtle food?)
			Jim "I'm a brewer" Buchman

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Date: 06 Apr 92 21:36:50 EDT
From: Rob Nelson <70206.1316 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Malt in Garbage Disposal

There was a question recently about putting spent grain down the garbage
disposal.  I've done it several times without any trouble.  I just dump them
into a pile in the sink, turn on the cold water until the sink is almost
full.  Then I direct a forceful stream of water from the sprayer down the
hole.  It takes about a minute to grind it up.
 
Do NOT try this with spent hop flowers.  I jammed up the old In-Sink-erater
but good once.  Had to use the little wrench thingy and a broom handle to
free the blades.  Then, I had to scoop out the goo.  Not a pretty sight.
 
 
Rob Nelson



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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 92 22:25:18 CDT
From: David William Bell <bell at convex.csd.uwm.edu>
Subject: Re: Meeting in Milwaukee


Hi brewers,

I'm from Milwaukee.  First to answer a couple of questions.
There is more than one brewpub in Milwaukee, i believe.  I
will try (when I'm at hoem) to get some addresses for you and
post them.  you may want to tour two of our local micros as 
well, I'll post them also for convienience.

On the Brewers idea, I'm not a fan of baseball, but i could
show up for the tailgate part (is there a cost to simply
get into the parking lot?). 

I would like to meet you all, but my friends and I cannot
afford to pay the price of the conference (poor grad. students).

Now for the real point of the post.  A place to meet.  Although
the beer selection is limited (Hacker Schorr (sp?) Culmbacher
are about the best) the college union is sure to be a low key
atmosphere.  you can pretty much rest assured we'd find each
other.  The low key atmosphere and ability to hold conversation
over the noise level is the only reason i suggest it.

Barry's Waterstreet Pump is also pretty low key and has a 
better beer selection.  Von Trier has the best german beer 
collection I know of.   These may be easier to find.  Von
Trier is sure to be crowded and noisy howver.

Maybe some Milwaukee brewers can E-mail me, we can toss a few
selections around and some ideas and post a place since we know
where the bars are and what they serve.  Please, write to me, 
There a couple of other brewers here with me and we can get 
quite a debate going over E-mail to decide.  This way, everyone
who has never been to Milwaukee won't have to shuffle through
the debate.

Also, any requests in terms of, well any requests, send 'em.
Not trying to exclude, just trying to get the ball rolling!

- --------------
David Bell - bell at convex.csd.uwm.edu  Some, loth to be espi'd,
Department of Political Science       Some start in at the back side,
University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee   Over the hedge and pale,
			              And all for the good ale.

P.S. - (None of the brewers I know can afford to go, but I'm
sure they'd like to go out for a beer.)

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #858, 04/07/92