FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  bad beer? (Now we will gnaw on their skulls)
  Bad beer perhaps? (Roger SElby)
  question about mash conversion (John Fitzgerald)
  Re:  Homebrew Digest #876 (May 05, 1992) (Scott Weintraub)
  Strange smelling Lager (lee_menegoni)
  Calcium Cloride (Crawford.Wbst129)
  Raspberry Ale (Anthony Rossini)
  yeast, NA (Russ Gelinas)
  Growing hops (Carol Miller-Tutzauer)
  Growing hops
  MBC yeast (mcnally)
  Hop restraint  (Carl West)
  Beer - of course! (Scott Jay)
  Re: Homebrew Digest #876 (May 05, 1992) (ZAPPULLA)
  Summary: mead question responses (David Suda)
  AHA Conference - Need a roomie!? (Dave Beedle)
  Grolsch bottle gaskets (mark)
  MTHVAX ARCHIVES (andrew mossberg / mthvax admin)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 May 1992 03:01 -0600
From: Now we will gnaw on their skulls <SELBYR at MEENA.CC.UREGINA.CA>
Subject: bad beer?

I was wondering if anyone could help me with a question I have. I made
up a batch of beer in late August/early September, transfered it to a
carboy,then ended up leaving it until a week ago to bottle. What are
the chances of it being drinkable? The carboy sat undisturbed in my
basement (very cool) over a Canadian winter - temp under 19 degrees
centigrade most definitely. A related question would be - what, if
any, would be the ill effects (affects?) of drinking this or any
"bad" beer? Also, what should I be looking for to determine if a beer
should or shouldn't or couldn't be imbibed? ie, what smells and
sights should I look out for? Thanks for any and all help.
Roger Selby
Dept. of Anth.
University of Regina
Regina, Sask., Canada
S4S 0A2

(selbyrog at uregina1, selbyr at ureginav)

p.s. Is rinsing with a sodium metabisulphate solution sufficient to
sterilize bottles, equipment, carboys, etc..?

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Date:         Tue, 05 May 92 03:12:56 CST
From: Roger SElby <SELBYROG at MAX.CC.UREGINA.CA>
Subject:      Bad beer perhaps?

I was wondering if anyone could help me with a question I have. I made
up a batch of beer in late August/early September, transfered it to a
carboy,then ended up leaving it until a week ago to bottle. What are
the chances of it being drinkable? The carboy sat undisturbed in my
basement (very cool) over a Canadian winter - temp under 19 degrees
centigrade most definitely. A related question would be - what, if
any, would be the ill effects (affects?) of drinking this or any
"bad" beer? Also, what should I be looking for to determine if a beer
should or shouldn't or couldn't be imbibed? ie, what smells and
sights should I look out for? Thanks for any and all help.

Roger Selby
(selbyrog at uregina1, selbyr at ureginav)

p.s. Is rinsing with a sodium metabisulphate solution sufficient to
sterilize bottles, equipment, carboys, etc..?

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Date: 4 May 92 16:32:00 PST
From: John Fitzgerald <johnf at ccgate.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM>
Subject: question about mash conversion


Hello fellow HBD'ers,

Having just started to include mashing as part of my brewing process,
I have come across a question I'm hoping some of you more experienced NET'ers
might be able to answer.  I think I got pretty good starch conversion,
but iodine testing didn't give me the specific answer "YES, you are done" 
that I was looking for.  What I'm wondering is what would happen if the
starch hadn't converted to suger?  Would sparging still result in a specific
gravity close to a normal one?  Would I end up with a beer with lots of
unfermentables, not much alcohol, and flavor somewhat similar to wallpaper
paste?

Any insight is welcome and appreciated.

John.

johnf at npg-sd.sandiego.ncr.com


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Date: Tue, 5 May 92 07:51:24 EDT
From: sfw at trionix.com (Scott Weintraub)
Subject: Re:  Homebrew Digest #876 (May 05, 1992)

Does anyone know where one might obtain treacle in the US?

I want to make a close approximation of Old Peculier, and apparently
need treacle.

Thanks...
         --Scott Weintraub

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Date: 05 May 92 07:47:58 EDT
From: CHUCKM at csg3.Prime.COM

Dear HBDers....   Here is what I have been doing to re-use yeast. I would
    appreciate any comments/advice, etc you might have..

    During primary ferment at  high kruesen I fill a mason jar with
wort and store it in the fridge. (jar has been sanitized with a chlorine
soak). This way the work is filled with active yeast.  A day or so before
I am going to brew I take the jar out of the fridge and let it warm to room
temp. I make up a starter ( a pint or so of boiled wort) and add the contents
of the the mason jar. Within 12 hours or so the starter has a 'head' and I know
that the yeast is active.

So far I have used this technique with wyeast 1007. I have stored it in
my fridge for up to a few weeks but don't think longer storage would be a
problem. I am on my fourth batch
with the same yeast and have had no problems nor noticed anything
bad happening.  One thing I did notice is that when opening the mason
jar before adding to the starter I may have a sour smell (rotten eggs).
This may be due to the the trapped gasses in the jar since the yeast was active
when stored. I used it anyway with no problems.

This method was recommended to me by my local brew supply shop.


chuckm at csg3.prime.com


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Date: Mon,  4 May 92 13:56:25 EDT
From: lee_menegoni at ptltd.com
Subject: Strange smelling Lager

I have brewed ales for the past 2 years.  I have a second refridgerator now 
and just begun brewing lagers, 2 batches, both seem to suffer from the same
problem.  After bottling they have a strange odor, the taste is fine.  I use a
refridgerator and Hunter Air Stat for a temperature controlled environment to 
brew in.  The odor reminds me of the smell inside the refrigerator when I 
check on the brew during primary fermentation.
I use partial mash recipes, is this be like a cake mix with scratch frosting? ,
rack off the trub, ferment in glass and use liquid yeast, WYeast Bavarian.  I 
begin fermentation at 55 once active I step it down a degree per day to 50 
after 15 to 20 days I rack into a glass secondary for lagering at 40 for 6 to
8 weeks.  When it was time to bottle I tried to produce a starter culture from
the slurry I retained from the primary, no luck.  I then purchased a new pak 
of Bavarian yeast and made a starter culture.  I poured about 15% of this and  
3/4 cups corn sugar which was disolved in water and boiled for 5 minutes into 
the beer and bottled.  Two weeks later I tried the brew and it has this strange
smell.  The other 85% of the starter was used in my second batch similar 
recipe same fermentation process same bottling process same smell.  Batch 3 is
fermenting and needs to be bottled soon any ideas on what is causing this 
smell?  How can I eliminate it in subsequent batches?  
I added the yeast to the beer at bottling time  per the suggestion in the
Noonan book on brewing lagers where he states that after long cold lagering the yeast may be very weak and a small population needs to be added for carbonation.
   
   

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Date: 	Tue, 5 May 1992 05:45:36 PDT
From: Crawford.Wbst129 at xerox.com
Subject: Calcium Cloride


A while back I believe there was a discussion on where to get Calcium Chloride.
What was the final outcome?  Does anybody know where to buy Calcium Choride?

Thanks,
Greg

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Date: Tue, 5 May 92 10:05:23 EDT
From: rossini%hsph at harvard.harvard.edu (Anthony Rossini)
Subject: Raspberry Ale

Thanks to all who sent in information.  Seeing as that the ale is now 5 days
in the bottle, I thought I'd describe what I ended up doing (being from the
"I think that I'll add some more of that stuff" school of HB'ing, amounts
are probably +/- a bit... :-).):

	5 lbs M&F light syrup
	1/2 lb crystal (added in with water, removed just before boiling)
	1 1/2 oz Cascade for boiling, 1/2 oz at the last 3 minutes of the
		boil
	24oz frozen raspberries added right after I turned off the stove

	OG about 1.039

	Sat a week in the primary.  Added 24oz more frozen raspberries into
		the secondary, then added the wort (beer?).  Didn't worry
		about sulfiting or other forms of berry sanitizing...

	Sat 2 weeks in the secondary.

	FG about 1.010

So anyhow, 5 days later, I think that I might've put in more malt, maybe 1-2
more pounds.  It is a light beer, plenty of berry flavor and smell, a nice
red color, and also tastes quite good (though I should qualify that by
saying that while I enjoy great beers, I've never turned down swill,
either...).

Anyhow, a bit more hops might've been nice, but definitely not necessary, as
someone suggested to me.

More berries might've over-powered the beer flavor, but increasing berries
with malt would probably give a decent full beer (I should state that I was
looking for something on the light/refreshing side, not too complex!)

Anyway, back to work...

 -tony
p.s.  another possibility would've been a wheat rasp beer... maybe next
time... 


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Date:    Tue, 5 May 1992 10:07:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: yeast, NA

  Couple of questions:  First, for Jeff F., in your yeast cleaning
directions, step 4 says to agitate the water/yeast/trub mixture "until
obvious separation is noticeable" and then to pour off the yeast in
suspension.  Is this a quick process, or should the jar sit for a while
to separate?
  The second question has to do with distillation and NA beer.  I thought
that a danger with heat distillation, as JackS. does with his NA beer,
is that alcohols more dangerous than ethyl can be produced.  Will keeping
it to 170 degF max. avoid that problem?  Are the "bad" alcohols produced
by a (enough heat + ethyl) reaction?

Russ

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Date: Tue, 5 May 1992 10:32 EST
From: Carol Miller-Tutzauer <RIACMT at ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu>
Subject: Growing hops

From: riacmt at ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Carol Miller-Tutzauer)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
Subject: Growing hops
Date:  5 May 1992 10:04 EST  
Distribution: world
 
Ok... my husband is the homebrewer; I'm the gardener.  He
wants to grow hops, but keeps procrastinating on getting
information I need for getting them started.  So, here are
some questions.  The more I can get answered the better, but
I'll muddle through even if y'all can't answer everything.

1.  Growing pattern -- I understand they are vines.  Is it
preferable to have them grow straight up?  I could set up
tall poles driven into the ground about a foot or so.  Is
this the preferable way to grow them?  Also, we have vinyl
siding (very rough) on the house.  Will they grow up the
side of the house on their own?

2.  When should they be planted?  We are in New York (Buffalo).
Do they need to go into the ground soon?  And how long before
we can expect harvesting?  Will they even bear hops the first
year?

3.  Light requirements -- For growing in New York state, how
many hours of sunlight per day are required?  Is this direct
sunlight or is indirect ok?  Does amount of sunlight affect
yields?

4.  Soil requirements -- Anyone know the preferred soil PH level?

5.  Root (rhizome) depth -- how much depth of soil do I need to
provide for the hop plants?

6.  Recommended planting distance -- how far apart should I
plant them.  I gather they grow side to side.  Would growing
one plant per 1/2 whiskey-barrel planter work?  These are about
18 inches deep and about 2 ft in diameter.  We could then move
them mid-day to give them more sun.

7.  Fertilization schedule?  Anyone have any suggestions on this?
I usually put a layer of manure down, then soil, then plant.
About the time the plant's roots get down to the manure layer,
it is the right time for a little food boost.  I know bulbs 
also like some food below their roots.  I have never grown 
rhizomes before, so I'm clueless here.

8.  How many should we plant?  I realize yields probably won't
be great the first year, but what do you all say about someone
who brews approximately 1 batch every 1 or 2 weeks?

9.  How do you "winter" the hop plants?  Let die then cover with
straw?  Bring inside?  Let dry out or trim down?  Give them
a fertilizer boost before wintering?

10.  Watering requirements -- (Almost forgot this one.)  Do you
need well-draining soil?  How often should you water?  Generally
I make a ring-like pit around plants that will hold and cradle
water.  I also mulch so as to retain water.  (I use straw.)
Is this a reasonable strategy?

You can send to the digest or email.  I will keep an eye on this 
digest for the next week or so.  

(By the way, my husband -- and the guilty procrastinator -- is
Frank Tutzauer!  Are you out there, Frank?)

Carol  
Homebrew widow ;-)

email: riacmt at ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu



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Date: Tue, 05 May 92 08:34:20 -0700
From: mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Subject: MBC yeast


It's been a while since I've tried Eye of the Hawk, but I seriously
doubt that the yeast is anything at all like the Chimay culture.
It's hard to tell yeast by appearance.  The Chimay culture is 
supposedly five different strains of yeast.  I've always had
success reculturing it (I've got some bubbling away now).

_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
Mike McNally                                           mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation
Western Software Lab

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Date: Tue, 5 May 92 10:44:19 EDT
From: eisen at kopf.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Carl West)
Subject: Hop restraint 

(yeah, I know, ankle weights)

I haven't enough experience to answer this, and the books don't mention it.

How far down into the ground would I have to stick metal or plastic
dividers to keep my hops from spreading too far?  Does the rhizome stay
fairly near the surface? Is the rhizome a continuous structure? Would
blocking the rhizome be enough to do the job?

Carl

WISL,BM.


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Date: Tue, 5 May 92 13:49:34 -0300
From: pgsjay at atlas.cs.upei.ca (Scott Jay)
Subject: Beer - of course!



	A few people I work with and myself have formed a brewing
association - F.A.B. (Forestry Association of Brewers). Most of us are
fairly new to the art of brewing, so we do have some questions. I have been
receiving this digest for about two weeks and, although most of it really
does not pertain to us (we are CAKE MIX BREWERS!) it is certainly
interesting. Who knows, we may someday make a SCRATCH CAKE! 
	Anyway, we thought we'd try to find the answer to a question that
we've pondered over for quite awhile. :-) It may be a FAQ but here it is
anyway: What is the difference between different types of beer (i.e. lager,
ale, pilsner, draft, etc.).
	Thanks.

p.s. If you are planning a trip to the most popular vacation spot in North 
America, Prince Edward Island, Canada, this fall we are tentatively planning 
an Octoberfest for Home Brewers (obviously some time in October). Let me know.

Scott
pgsjay at atlas.cs.upei.ca
 

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Date: Tue, 5 May 1992 18:00 EST
From: ZAPPULLA%MIDD.BITNET at mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #876 (May 05, 1992)


TAKE ME OFF YOUR MAILING LIST TODAY!!!  zappulla at midd.bitnet

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Date: Tue, 5 May 92 16:05:24 -0600
From: David Suda <suda at barley.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: Summary: mead question responses


A couple weeks ago my friend Susanne asked me to post several mead making
questions to the HBD. Thanks to everyone who replied. Susanne's article
has been accepted by Zymurgy and is scheduled for publication in the Fall
issue. Here's a summary of the responses we received:

* What flavor/aroma/clarity trade-offs have you experienced for boiling
  vs. not boiling the honey?

    The consensus was that boiling results in a mead which clears rapidly
    and ferments well, but at the cost of most of the honey aroma. While
    unboiled meads retain more honey aromatics, they can take a very long
    time to clear. Irish moss helps in the clarification of both boiled
    and unboiled meads.

* What type of honey is best for making a smooth traditional mead? What
  type of honey is best for making a melomel or metheglin with
  "character"?

    This question appears to have as many answers as there are meadmakers.
    Some favor lightly flavored honeys (such as clover and alfalfa) for
    tradition meads to produce a delicate bouquet and strongly flavored
    honeys (such as wildflower or orange blossom) to balance the fruits
    and spices in melomels and metheglins. Others like an assertive honey
    flavor in traditional mead and use mild honey for flavored mead so that
    the fruit and/or spices are not masked. In any case, honey should have
    a flavor you like and be as fresh as possible. As honey ages, chemical
    changes make is less desirable for mead making.

* What is the most attenuative yeast? How does the attenuation of
  various yeasts compare?

    Prisse de Mousse appears to be one of the most attenuative yeasts
    available. Charts comparing the attenuation and other characteristics
    of various yeasts will accompany the Zymurgy article.

* What water additives do you use and why? Why add gypsum?

    Most meadmakers add yeast nutrients to speed fermentation and acidity
    or tannin to balance the sweetness of the honey. The article will
    present details about various nutrient blends. The amount of acid
    or tannin to add is a matter of taste. Sources of acidity include acid
    blend and lemon juice; tea is often used as a source of tannin.

    In mead, gypsum is probably not needed. In wort, Ca++ reacts with
    phosphates to lower the Ph. Since honey contains a much lower
    concentration of phosphates than malted barley, this doesn't work.

* What are some good regional honey suppliers?

    Several people recommended health food stores and farmer's markets as
    good sources for fresh, unpasturized honey.

Once again, thanks to everyone who responded.

Dave


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Date: Tue, 5 May 92 18:43:31 CDT
From: dbeedle at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Dave Beedle)
Subject: AHA Conference - Need a roomie!?

     Hi all!  I have a friend who is looking for a room mate for the
AHA National Conference on the 10th through the 13th.  He has reservations
already but no roomie.  If you are interested drop me some email and I can let
him know, give him your phone number, etc, or drop me some email and I can
give you his phone number.

TTFN
- --
  Dave Beedle                                     Office of Academic Computing
                                                     Illinois State University
  Internet:  dbeedle at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu                     136A Julian Hall
   "Relax! Don't worry!  Have Homebrew!"                    Normal, IL   61761

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Date: Mon, 04 May 92 09:34:46 -0500
From: ks25!mark at decwrl.dec.com
Subject: Grolsch bottle gaskets


I am planning on bottling a batch this weekend using for the first time
some Grolsch type bottles (actually Fischer's bottles), that I have
accumulated over the last couple of months. I seem to recall seeing in
an article on HBD that one should replace the gaskets on such bottles
before using them the first time. Is the true? If so what is the reason
for it?

Thanks

Mark		mark at ks25.chi.il.us	OR	decwrl!ks25!mark


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Date: Wed, 6 May 1992 01:53:51 -0400
From: andrew mossberg / mthvax admin <aem at umigw.miami.edu>
Subject: MTHVAX ARCHIVES


The archives at mthvax will be ending soon, and the gatewaying of
the homebrew digest to rec.crafts.brewing will also cease.

sorry,
aem

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #877, 05/06/92