FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Bad News for Keggers, Foxx goes retail (John Hartman)
  [John Palkovic: wyeast data] (Dave Coombs)
  wyeast data
  mead questions (rwinters)
  Beck's Dark recipe? (wkb)
  Maple beer information (Arthur Delano)
  mead supplies (Brian Smithey)
  Watney's Red Barrel Recipe please? (Tom Bower)
  What goes through an imersion chiller?  (Carl West)
  re sweet beers from delbrueckii (Chip Hitchcock)
  Wyeast problems (Re: Wyeast Belgian revisited) ("Theodore R. Jackson Jr.")
  I'm off to Belgium (C.R. Saikley)
  recycling the mash (Jay Hersh)
  propane questions & esters from low lipids (NCDSTEST)
  Homebrew archives and issue #718 (Tom Fitzgerald	)
  Eau de Toilette, Whitbred Yeast (Jack Schmidling)
  Re: State with most brewpubs per capita ("st. stephen")
  Mead Recipe (Jacob Galley)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 92 11:40:09 PDT
From: hartman at varian.varian.com (John Hartman)
Subject: Bad News for Keggers, Foxx goes retail

I just placed an order with the good people at Foxx Equipment
Co., 1-800-525-2484.  I was informed that since I last dealt
with them, they have "gone retail".  My reaction at first was,
"good", however Sally explained that in fact what this means is
that they no longer sell to homebrewers at WHOLESALE prices.  It
seems too many of their retailers complained about us folks going
directly to Foxx.  She also said that in the last two years sales
to homebrewers has become something of a phenomenon at Foxx.  In
a sense I suppose we're victims of our own success here.  Bummer.
I think most know that in the past their prices were quite good.
Sally says that most stuff is now about double.  Their Homebrew Kit,
which includes 5lb CO2 tank, 5 gal SS keg, 1 valve regulator, and
all the fittings was $186.  It's now $230.  And no, I have no
affiliation with Foxx.

Have you heard that restaurant/pub at Wolfgang Puck's Eureka Brewery
has been shut down?  They're still brewing and bottling though.
Boy, I'm just full of good news today, aren't I?

Cheers,
John

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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 92 08:04:27 -0400
From: Dave Coombs <coombs at cme.nist.gov>
Subject: [John Palkovic: wyeast data]

I got a few responses asking for copies of the data and this one with
a pointer to an archive.

	cheers,
	dave

- ------- Forwarded Message

From: John Palkovic <johnp at lupulus.ssc.gov>
Message-Id: <199206041418.AA18763 at lupulus.ssc.gov>
To: Dave Coombs <coombs at cme.nist.gov>
Subject: wyeast data
Reply-To: john_palkovic at ssc.gov

>Someone posted the Wyeast data a while ago.  Is it in an archive or
>homebrew FAQ someplace so interested souls can get it?

It was posted in hbd #742. That is available for anon. ftp from
sierra.stanford.edu:/pub/homebrew/1991/9110.shar.Z. 

- ------- End of Forwarded Message


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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1992 09:04:49 -0500
From: rwinters at nhqvax.hq.nasa.gov
Subject: mead questions

I bought a mead kit at the recent "Beer Expo" in DC. The instructions were
almost non-existent, and questions abound:

 - What kind of O.G. should I expect when adding water to 12 pounds of
honey
   to make 5 gallons?

 - Is my 7 gallon plastic brew-bucket OK for a primary, or should I
endeavor
   to clean out one of my old carboys?

 - The kit came with Red Star champagne yeast. Can I do better? Should I?
   Where will the S.G. end up, and how long is it likely to take?

 - How does champagne yeast behave, anyway? Should I make a starter?

 - What about temperature? I don't have any facilities for lagering, but
   should I attempt to keep it cool, or just let it go at room temperature?

 - I was going to put it in capped champage bottles. Will this work okay? 
   I think I have a corker (it's sorta inherited, like the carboys), but
I've
   never used it.

 - If I wanted to prime this so that it would be a sparkling mead, what 
   should I prime it with? and how much? 3/4 cup corn sugar? Another 1/2
pound
   of honey? Will the bottlecap keep it in the champagne bottle?

 - I was also thinking of adding something for aroma; maybe a nice,
fragrant
   finishing hop, or something herbal. Any suggestions about what to add
and
   when to achieve a nice effect?

Thanks for any and all suggestions!

Rob Winters


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Date:  5 Jun 1992   9:26 EDT
From: wkb at cblph.att.com
Subject: Beck's Dark recipe?


    Anyone have a recipe for a beer reasonably close to Beck's Dark?

    Thanks.   -- Keith

    | W. Keith Brummett          (614) 860-3187           AT&T, Room 3B202 |
    | att!cblph!wkb  or,      FAX: (614) 868-4021        6200 E. Broad St. |
    | wkb at cblph.att.com            R,DW,HAHB!           Columbus, OH 43213 |
    `----------------------------------------------------------------------'


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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 92 10:18:03 EDT
From: Arthur Delano <ajd at itl.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: Maple beer information


After the thread about using maple syrup began a while ago, I thought 
that it would be good if I could dig up a book which has relevant 
information on the subject.  I'm sorry that I took so long, but my book 
collection is a mess.

The source is: _Wines and Beers of Old New England: A How-to-Do-It 
History_ (1978), fascinating even if you never plan on following any if 
its recipes.  The author is Sanborn C. Brown, who has taught many 
classes on homebrewing at MIT.  I don't know if this book is still in 
print (part of the reason why I feel it would be useful to copy out some 
of the info), but it's somewhat easy to find used.

The quotes are taken out of order.

"Since maple syrup is about one third water, to use maple syrup as sugar 
for beers, wines, or ciders increase the volume of the syrup by that 
amount (1 1/2 cups syrup = 1 cup of cane sugar).

"You can make good 'middle beer' by using the sap just as it comes from 
the tree in place of the water in the basic beer recipe....  To make a 
colonial strong beer, boil the sap to one half its volume and use it in 
place of both the water and the sugar in the basic recipe....  It makes 
a good light beer."

[the basic recipe is: 1 gal. water, 3# hopped malt extract syrup, boil, 
six cups sugar dissolved, water added to make five gallons, yeast.]

"When maple beer was made in the old days, it was an early spring beer 
and was made right along with the syrup and the sugar. This was because 
sap does not keep well.  It molds easily.  Its pectin content is high, 
and if kept for long, it can turn to a soft jelly which inhibits 
fermentation.  However, fresh sap boiled to one half and used in place 
of water in the usual process of making beer gave the early settlers an 
excellent strong beer made totally from the products of their own farm.  
They also made a wine, which they called 'maple mead,' by boiling the 
sap to 1/10th*, adding yeast, and fermenting."

[* Elsewhere, Brown indicates that commercial syrup is sap reduced to 
1/40 or 1/50 original volume.]

There is also several pages about collecting maple sap and making maple 
syrup.  I'm intrigued by the idea of making beer directly from slightly 
reduced maple sap (it makes diluting maple syrup an unneccessary step), 
and meant to talk to some of the commercial maple producers last winter 
about buying the unreduced sap.  There is also intriguing information 
about birch sap being collected for its sugar.  Some recipes and ideas 
are included in the book.

There is information on buying and keeping oak storage barrels, making 
wines, ciders, and beers of all kinds, and lots of historical 
information on how and why things were done.  At the end is a collection 
of recipes for drinks made with the proceeds of the previous chapters.  
I highly recommend this book, and if it is out of print, it ought to be 
put back in print.

AjD

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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 92 09:00:27 MDT
From: smithey at rmtc.Central.Sun.COM (Brian Smithey)
Subject: mead supplies

>>>>> mmlai!lucy!gildner at uunet.UU.NET (Michael Gildner) writes:

Mike> I've decided to try to make a batch of mead since I can't 
Mike> find a commercial variety to buy. I've never tasted the stuff,
Mike> I'm just curious. --- The problem is I don't know where to 
Mike> find good honey.  Does anyone know of a good mail order dealer
Mike> or a local place in the Balto-Wash. area to buy bulk honey?


Mike,

I was recently in the same boat, and asked about sources for
honey.  Many of the responses I received recommended trying
a health food store.  They often sell honey in bulk (which is
a good thing, because you may by buying anywhere from 5-10#
depending on batch size and sweet/dry style), and their
product is usually raw, unfiltered, unblended honey, another
plus.

I brewed up a "sack" mead (strong, sweet style) about 5 weeks
ago, using 50/50 wildflower and clover honey.  I think I used
8 or 8.5# of honey for a 3 gallon batch, and used Prise de Mousse
dry yeast (a wine yeast).  Original SG was 1.110, and when I
racked it to secondary after 4 weeks it was down to 1.020.
It seems to be just about finished, but I'm going to let it
sit another 4 weeks or so to clear, and make sure that any
warm weather that comes along doesn't cause fermentation to
kick in again.

Good luck and happy mead making,

Brian
- --
Brian Smithey / Sun Microsystems / Colorado Springs, CO
smithey at rmtc.Central.Sun.COM

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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 92 8:36:58 PDT
From: Tom Bower <bower at hprnlme1.rose.hp.com>
Subject: Watney's Red Barrel Recipe please?


Does anyone have a recipe which approximates Watney's Red Barrel?  I've
seen several Bass Ale recipes float by and in the Cat's Meow, but no
Watney's.  Line's book full of imitations doesn't seem to have what I'm
looking for, either.

I'd prefer an extract + grain tea type recipe, but I'd be willing to try
this for my first all-grain.  Post to HBD or e-mail as you please!

Tom Bower, bower at hprnd.rose.hp.com

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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 92 11:29:53 EDT
From: eisen at kopf.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Carl West)
Subject: What goes through an imersion chiller? 

Bob Jones says:
>...some brewers
>wrongly think you should place the cooler in a bucket of ice water and flow
>the hot work (sic) through the inside of the cooler. Listen up brewers...

Bob, ease up, it's a perfectly reasonable thing to do. It has its
advantages and its disadvantages just as any other method. I depends on
what you want/need to do.

Advantages:
 - the wort is cooled very quickly like in a counterflow cooler, giving
   a good cold break.
 - it's a sure thing that the wort is not exposed to infection during
   its most vulnerable time ( 170F < wort > 70F )
 - the materials are mostly easy to get (a pot, ice, a coil of copper
   tubing) and there's not alot of permanent`construction' to be done

Disadvantages:
 - you need to concern yourself with the cleanliness of the inside of
   the tubing
 - you have to jockey yet another pot of water
 - you have to come up with an intake tube that will stand up to boiling
   wort
 - you have to figure out how to plumb the whole thing together


Carl

When I stop learning, bury me.


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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 92 10:29:11 EDT
From: cjh at diaspar.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: re sweet beers from delbrueckii

   wrt to comments that isolated S. delbrueckii doesn't seem to ferment
as far:
   after the Red Star lager yeast tests (single-cell cultures showing that
the basic yeast is sound, suggesting the off-taste comes from
contaminants---done in Boston 2 years ago and reported a few times in
previous HBD's) one of the people involved reported other culturing tests
that had found (as this one had) that freshly-cultured yeast generally
seems less attenuative than yeast that's been through at least one batch of
beer. Have any of the people who cultured SdelB tried repitching? If so,
did you get the same results?

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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 92 12:20:46 EDT
From: "Theodore R. Jackson Jr." <tj2d at mtaac.bme.Virginia.EDU>
Subject: Wyeast problems (Re: Wyeast Belgian revisited)

I have also encountered problems (infections) using 
Wyeast liquid cultures.  At first, I attributed the 
problems to poor sanitation techniques although I never
had a problem in any of the 18 previous batches brewed
with Whitbread ale yeast.  However, a recent attempt to 
culture Chimay yeast directly from the bottle has lead 
me to believe otherwise.

The three times I used Wyeast cultures, I produced beers
with a horrible aftertaste (one that would stay with you
for 1-3 days).  The attempt to culture Chimay produced 
the same aftertaste in the starter.  I tossed the starter
down the drain.  The Chimay yeast was presumably dead and
something else started growing.

This leads me to the point that no matter how well one 
sanitizes equipment, the yeast population still has to 
be large enough to out-produce anything else living in 
the fermenter.  I really already knew this, but disregarded
advice to first pitch the Wyeast into a starter before
pitching into the main fermenter.  I ruined four batches 
of beer because of slow starts.

It might be worthwhile to prepare a small (starter size)
batch (usual sanitation procedures) and allow it to sit 
with a fermentation lock and no yeast.  If the resulting 
infection is similar the problem infection (method to be 
determined by you, taste was enough for me), you can point 
a finger at the wild things living in your kitchen.  

Ted Jackson


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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 92 10:28:21 PDT
From: grumpy!cr at uunet.UU.NET (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: I'm off to Belgium


Yo Brewers,

I've decided to do it. Yesterday I purchased tickets to Brussels
(round-trip, sigh). Anyone out there have suggestions as to what
places are must see?? Specific info like names & addresses would
be useful since I'd like to make arrangements before departing.

Please email me directly.

Thanks,
CR

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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 92 15:02:19 EDT
From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu>
Subject: recycling the mash



Russ said:

>  Micah sez don't recycle the mash.

Guess I missed this. Why not?? I thought recycling the first few quarts
before beingiing the sparge helps to set the grain bed....


	JaH

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hopfen und Malz, Gott erhalts

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Date:    Fri, 5 Jun 1992 16:50:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: NCDSTEST at NSSDCA.GSFC.NASA.GOV
Subject: propane questions & esters from low lipids


Ive got a question about propane regulators, flow rates and freezing I am building a kettle burner that will fire my kettle/mash tun as well as
heat the sparge water.  My burner supplier (Solarflo) states a maximum input
fuel rate of one gallon per hour.  This is supposedly regulated by a 10" water
column pressure regulator (the manufacturer claimed this was about .5 psi).
I have seen (and own) a backyard BBQ with a regulator rated at 11" water
column pressure.  I assume these are not compatable, comments.  Also of
concern is the ability of the regulator and couplings to supply 1 gal of
propane per hour without freezing up.  I am trying to gather information
on regulators and flo rates so I build the optimum setup.  Any info is
appreciated.

Re: Micahs Ester post

Its very satisfing to read some technical discussions about brewing in this
digest and I thank Micah for contributing to this.  I have to question some
of the statements, though no flames.  I dont see how you can brew well made
clear beer without recirculating some runoff from the lauter tun.  I am
currently using slotted sheet as a false bottom and a 20 minute recirc is
mandatory for remotely clear runoff.  As for oxygenation of and browning
reaction of hot wort, it doesnt affect flavor, and unless you are making
a very light lager (pils) the resulting darkening of the wort is not
significant.  I follow the reasoning of particulate matter flocking to the
proteins, but why add particulate matter thereby adding hot trub and reducing
hop utilization.  If you have sufficient amounts of calcium in the boil, 
the proteins will flock well anyway.  As for yeast autolyzing from lack 
of lipids: this is irrelevant if you are maintaining healthy viable yeast
stocks.  Yeast need to synthisze (sp) sterols to transition from the 
resperation phase to the fermentation phase.  Yeast will use stored 
glycogyn reserves from the cell interior, respire oxygen and produce teh
required sterols.  The important ingrediants are oxygen (which most 
homebrewers can never get enough of in the wort by shaking) and glycogen
stores.  Stored yeast (ie Wyeast) deplete glycogen during storage without
food and are thus in a position to display inordinant lag times.  This 
coupled with the low O2 in the wort leads to the poor Wyeast ferments.
Without adequate supplies of O2, the yeast can feed on the fatty acids
present in trub (from the cold break).  This is how yeast synthisizes 
sterols in a low O2 environment (read homebrewing).  This is why it is
a poor idea to rack off the cold break prior to the end of the respiration
stage.  This is also why you need a clean, glycogen rich supply of yeast
slurry at pitching time.  On a related topic, anyone use an oxygen injection
system on thier chillers?  I am designing one now and am looking for tips,
ideas that is.  

Jim Busch
ncdstest at nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov

DE HOPPEDUIVEL DRINKT MET ZWIER 'T GEZONDE BLOND HOPPEBIER!

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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 92 15:28:08 EDT
From: Tom Fitzgerald <fitz at wang.com>
Subject: Homebrew archives and issue #718

> Archives _were_ available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu
> (Stay tuned for info on a new archive site)

I've got a nearly complete set of archives here, and a brand-shiny-new
Internet site (only 85% online, currently) that I want to put them on.

One thing is, my collection is complete EXCEPT FOR ISSUE #718.  Does anyone
have a copy of this?  My past requests for this have gone unfulfilled, and
even the mthvax archives didn't have it.  Send #718 to me, and I'll name my
next router after you.

- -- 
Tom Fitzgerald   Wang Labs      fitz at wang.com  "I went to the universe today;
1-508-967-5278   Lowell MA, USA                 It was closed...."

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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 92 22:38 CDT
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Eau de Toilette, Whitbred Yeast

 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 >From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
 
 >  No, Jack, my question about using dehumidifier water was not a joke.  My
 initial feeling was "Ugh, scary stuff", but then I realized it might have
 some nice qualities, such as never being exposed to chlorine and being very
 soft.........  I'm sort of surprised, though, Jack, that such a passionate 
 "standard brewing practice" debunker as yourself would dismiss a real 
 question about a "non-standard" practice as a joke.
 
 I sort of suspected it was not a joke but having been sucked into two others, 
 I didn't want to seem like I was taking the bait.
 
 However, although your motivation may be in line with my passion for 
 experimentation, the reality of dehumidifier soup as a serious possibility 
 for brewing really does stretch credibility.  It would be fun to streak a 
 petri dish with a drop of that water but like you said most of that stuff 
 would be killed by boiling.
 
 That aside, the volume of air that passes through a dehumidifier to produce 
 five gallons of water is staggering and most of the particulate matter, dead 
 or alive, ends up in the water.
 
 What seems like a free water distiller at first glance also happens to be an 
 air filter by default.  I think I would rather take my chances with rain 
 water if I had a water problem and could not afford to buy distilled water.
 
 .....................
 
 PURE CULTURING WHITBREAD YEAST
 
 I recently pure cultured some dry Whitbred yeast and the following is what I 
 learned.
 
 First of all, I would not have started the project if I had known that is 
 consists of three different strains.  I was simply looking for something 
 different to try.
 
 The initial results of the streak plate were colonies of a typical, white 
 yeast with no detectable, visual difference.  I made some slants from this 
 and brewed a batch of beer that was nominal in all respects.  This was about 
 the time I learned that there are supposed to be three strains in there.
 
 Within about a week, both plates developed one colony that is best described 
 as looking like a nippled breast with coarse striations.  I assumed this was 
 mold but the striations never developed into the typical fruiting bodies of a 
 mold.  The colony just kept growing but kept looking like a yeast.
 
 I discarded the plate from which I took the sample because it could have been 
 contaminated during the process of innoculating the slants.  The other plate 
 has never been opened.
 
 The second plate, also developed a slow growing colony of what seems like a 
 yeast and is only differentiated by its very yellow color.
 
 If these two odd balls represent the other "strains", they are a joke because 
 the one in a zillion ratio has got to put there effectiveness in the noise.  
 I would also suggest that such drastically different morphology would 
 indicate more than different strains, more likely different genera.
 
 Now the most interesting data is that the entire plate is now (day 17) almost 
 completely covered by mold that has developed in the past several days from 
 about 4 colonies not previously identifiable.
 
 As an additional experiment, I sprinkled yeast granules right from the packet 
 onto two plates several days after I prepared the other two plates.  Both of 
 these plates now have several mold colonies that are taking over and neither 
 has been opened since inoculating.
 
 The bottom line here is that Whitbread dry yeast seems to be seriously 
 contaminated and there is a possibility that the three strain claim is a 
 hoax.  If anyone has cultured this yeast, I would be interested in hearing 
 from you.  I am particularly interested in knowing if the yellow yeast and 
 the hairy breast are the other "strains" or just random junk.
 
 Just for the record, similar experiments with Edme never indicated any 
 contamination.
 
 js
 
 
 
 

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Date:         Sun, 07 Jun 92 12:53:16 EDT
From: "st. stephen" <ST402836 at brownvm.brown.edu>
Subject:      Re: State with most brewpubs per capita

Howdy,
    Not to be out-outdone:

>From: martin wilde <martin at daw_302.hf.intel.com>
>
>not to be outdone:
>
>> As I understand, and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong :-),
>> Vermont has the largest number of micros/brewpubs per capita:
>>
>> Population: circa 550,000
>> Micros/Brewpubs:
>>  Catamount
>>  Vermont Pub & Brewery
>>  Mountain Brewers (Long trail ale)
>>  Otter Creek
>> 2 others in brattleboro I believe, but only counting the 4 above,
>> we get about 1 micro/brewpub per 150,000 residents.

   The two in Brattleboro are Dewey's Ale house and Latches'.  Latches
beer is fairly ordinary.  Dewey's had shut down operations to renevate
their brewery to make it larger -- after only 6 months in business.  Guess
those Vt's like to drink :^)
   Anyway, that makes 6 brewpubs that I *know* are in Vt, which works out
to 1 per 91,600 residents.  Which beats :

>Oregon ---
>
[list of brewpubs deleted]
>
>here maybe 2 others I believe, but only counting the 22 above,
>we get about 1 micro/brewpub per 147,000 residents...
>

>If you just look at Portland metro area alone:
> 15 Micros/BrewPubs/1.5 million people, you get 1 micro/brewpub per 100,000
> residents.

  Well, if you consider just the Brattelboro area, which can't have more than
20,000 people, with 2 brewpubs, you get 1 per 10,000 residents!
  Not that it's a contest or anything :^)


 -s

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Date: Sun, 7 Jun 92 17:09:40 CDT
From: Jacob Galley <gal2 at midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Mead Recipe

I'm so happy with my second mead (already!) I thought I'd tell you-all
about it.

2ND MEAD (5 gallons)

7 lbs clover honey		(60 min boil) 
5 lbs orange blossom honey	(60)
1 lb  chopped raisins (dark)	(30)
1 tsp thyme			(30)
1 pak Red Star champagne yeast
0     yeast nutrient

I don't have my notes with me, but I whipped this up in late February.
I have yet to rally up enough wine bottles to bottle it all. However,
I did bottle one gallon two weeks ago, priming with half a cup of 
Welch's 100% grape juice (one additive: ascorbic acid <-- any
comments?). I was entertaining last night, and it was so good we
opened and finished two bottles. None of my guests had ever tried mead
before, and they weren't just being friendly (not even the one who
doesn't like wine).

This stuff smells incredible -- slightly orange, slightly fruity, very
much like flowers. The grape juice had not fermented out completely
(it's not explosive, yet), but neither was it noticeably sweet. The
grape masks whatever young-taste the mead still has in it (not much).
After two weeks it was lightly carbonated and a very clear pink.

As my first batch of mead (a clovey metheglin) is only about seven
months old and not very tasty, I don't have any experience with
mature mead yet. Actually, the first one used to taste better, before
most of the non-clove flavors aged away. I'm now somewhat skeptic of
the theory that you have to age mead a full year. Does anyone else
have anything to say about this?

Wassail,
Jake.

Reinheitsgebot <-- "Keep your laws off my beer!" <-- gal2 at midway.uchicago.edu

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #897, 06/08/92