FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  hops (Russell Owen)
  Poisonous brews (Conn Copas)
  Hefe-Weizen yeast (Pierre.Jelenc)
  B-Brite (Cleaning Blow-off tubes) ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  kegs (Dan Watson)
  hot sparge / hydrometer / silicone (Brian Bliss)
  Methanol (korz)
  Liquid properties (Michael L. Hall)
  re: methanol (Micheal Yandrasits)
  Silicon used as caulking (David Pike)
  Wyeast viability, O2 and cultures (Jim Busch) (NCDSTEST)
  Re: lactic acid treatment of sparge water (Darren Evans-Young)
  BMW/Munich Beers/South Carolina ("James W. Reese")
  Oregon Brewer's Festival (John Hartman)
  Re: Long time in the primary (Pat Lasswell)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1992 06:36 EST
From: Russell Owen <OWEN at VAXE.NIEHS.NIH.GOV>
Subject: hops

Where can I get good hops cuttings for cultivation?
I once mail ordered some from a produce and ornamentals catalog,
but they were frail and of unknown variety.
Send replys directly to me and I will summarize them and post
them.
Thanks in advance.
OWEN at NIEHS.BITNET

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Date: Thu, 2 Jul 92 11:42:17 BST
From: Conn Copas <C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Poisonous brews

Russ asked about the above topic.

My understanding is that methanol (so-called wood alcohol) can be produced by
the fermentation of cellulose, ie, plant fibre. I believe it requires special
micro-organisms. I've read of some third world illicit distillers who have
poisoned people by allowing a must containing sugar cane fibre to ferment
spontaneously.

- -- 
Loughborough University of Technology          tel : (0509)263171  ext 4164
Computer-Human Interaction Research Centre     fax : (0509)610815      
Leicestershire  LE11 3TU           e-mail - (Janet):C.V.Copas at uk.ac.lut   
G Britain                 (Internet):C.V.Copas%lut.ac.uk at nsfnet-relay.ac.uk


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Date: Thu, 2 Jul 92 8:32:31 EDT
From: Pierre.Jelenc at cunixf.cc.columbia.edu
Subject: Hefe-Weizen yeast

in HBD # 914 Brian Bliss asks about a source of yeast for Hefe-Weizen.

I have just successfully cultured yeast from a bottle of Paulaner
Hefe-Weizen. However I still do not know whether this is the brewing
yeast as well.

Pierre




Pierre Jelenc                        pcj1 at cunixf.cc.columbia.edu 
                                    Columbia University, New York

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Date: Thu, 2 Jul 92 10:19:39 EDT
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu>
Subject: B-Brite (Cleaning Blow-off tubes)

So what's in B-Brite, anyway?  I assume it's got TSP, but what else?
Enquiring minds want to know.

=S

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Date: Thu, 2 Jul 92 08:21:51 MST
From: dwatson at as.arizona.edu (Dan Watson)
Subject: kegs


   Fellow Brewophiles,

   A while back, I asked about soft drink kegs and have recieved lots
of info since.  This probably falls into the realm of FAQs, but I
thought a summary might help beginners like myself.

   My original question was about the relative merits of pin-lock
versus ball-lock.  There was no consensus on this. I now have both,
and see no particular advantage of one or the other.  The pin-lock is
mechanically simpler, but not by much.  One writer speculated that one
type was used by Coke, and one by Pepsico.  This is apparently not the
case. I have kegs marked Coke with both.  A Coke truck driver (excuse
me, a sales associate) told me that ball-locks were the old standard,
and that everyone had changed to pin-locks.  Because the buggers are
nearly indestructable, the attrition rate was slow.  He also told me
that pin-locks were on the way out too, and that the industry was
going to a "post-carbonation system" which uses a bag-in-a-box syrup.
This is probably good news for us, since there will be a steady supply
of used kegs for the next few years at least.  

   People generically refer to these kegs as Cornelius, (the largest
manufacturer), but many that I've seen are made by Firestone.  They
appear to be very similar, and the top plates and hardware are
interchangable on the ones I have.  There are several variations of
pressure relief valves on the top plates, I like the ones that can be
bled easily by hand.  (I have one with a litle ring you pull, and
another with a lever.)  

   The best price that I found on a kegging system was from St.
Patricks of Texas, where I bought my CO2 tank, one keg, two-gauge
regulator, hoses, tee, two pin-lock air-in fittings, two beer-out
fittings, and two faucets for something less than $180.  I had one keg
that was found under the University football stadium, dented but
apparently OK.  After a recent post about buying them at a scrap yard,
I checked my local scrap purveyor and found two more in perfect shape.
I bought both for scrap Stainless price of $0.80/lb. or about $13.00
for both.  Now I'm really stoked, and am going to build up an inventory!

   At the moment I have three of the four full of liquid delight, and
am looking for a larger fridge!  I also bought a "stem" from St. Pats,
and put it through the fridge door.  I found a fine tap faucet for
four bucks at a used restaraunt supply place, and now keep the
"common" beer (brown ale usually, or bitter) easily accessable.  The
"specialty" beers you have to open the fridge door for.  I plumbed the
CO2 line through the top of the fridge, and keep the tank up there
beside the cheap temperature controller which was bought from
Johnstone Controls (sorry, I don't have the model # handy, but they
have several applicable ones from $29.00 on up to $50 or so, I had
this one on hand from an old project.)  I just wired a duplex
recepticle to the controller, and plugged the fridge into it... seems
to work OK.  Mine controls to +/- 5 degrees or so.

   About the plastic "roto-kegs".  I bought one of the spherical ones
cause I thought it would be cheaper ( at ~$50), but have not been happy
with it.  None of the seals sealed well, and I had to take the thing
apart and replace the o-rings, and coat all the threads with vasilene
before it stopped sucking up "sparkets" right and left.  I also found
it difficult to clean and sanitise properly.  The biggest problem
though, is it's shape!  it takes up lots of room in the fridge, where
the SS kegs use only a 9 in. round fotprint.  I will keep it around to
use for parties (sigh... live and ($) learn.)

   I want to thank all of you for the ongoing stream of good
information.  I may never cap a bottle again! :-)

                                       Dan Watson
                                       Sr. Research Specialist
                                       Steward Observatory Mirror Lab
                                       dwatson at as.arizona.edu

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Date: Thu, 2 Jul 92 11:09:26 CDT
From: bliss at csrd.uiuc.edu (Brian Bliss)
Subject: hot sparge / hydrometer / silicone



>> Should my sparge water be boiling when I start, TCJOHB says
>> 170, does it matter?
>
>Hot (170-180) but don't bother boiling. It's not crucial but malt sugars
>dissolve better if the water is really hot. Boil up a few kettlefuls as you
>are sparging to keep it hot.

You can tell if you got the sparge too hot by the little chunks of
coagulated protein in your sparge which don't filter out very well.

- -----------------------

2 days ago I wrote:

>Which brings up another question, why do my hydrometer readings
>go up after I let the hot break settle out?  The stuff is heavier
>than the wort (it sinks)... what gives?

An more than one person responded:

>Hydrometer readings will go up even while the heavier trub material
>is settling out because the wort is cooling.  Cool wort has a higher
>SG than hot wort.  Think of it as a syrup; cold syrup is thick, hot
>syrup is thin, and in a simple sense, that's what SG is a measure of,
>liquid thickness.

To clarify: My hydrometer readings go up when the hot break settles
out, even after I adjust for temperature.

As for SG being a measure of thickness:  Go stick a tablespoon or
two of starch in a hydrometer flask full of water.  You will wind
up with a thick gooey mess, but the SG is quite low.

- -----------------------

>I decided to replace the drain on my cooler with a
>drum tap. Well it leaks. Not alot but more then I
>willing to accept. I've heard mention of using
>silcone caulking to seal the hole. Is this stuff
>safe at mash temps/PH? Is anything better?

All the variations of silicone RTV they sell in automotive stores
are rated to temps between 350 and 700 F, and the caulking isn't
that much different.  They will not dissolve in oil or most harsh
cleaners (gasoline aside).  If you're worried about ingesting any of
the stuff (If it does dissolve, it comes off in chunks which wouldn't
make it through the sparge), I suggest you try using bubble gum.

- -----------------------

>Hefty Weiss for all

I bottled a (hefeweizen) batch last night at 1.061 OG, 1.027 FG.
That should qualify :-)

bb


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Date: Thu, 2 Jul 92 11:21 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Methanol

I asked a Chemist friend is there any chance of making Methanol when 
making beer.  My concern was that methanol is also called "wood alcohol"
and that I was planning to brew (another pseudo-lambic) in an oak cask.
He also happens to be a brewer, so he's familiar with yeast and their
products, so I think this should be pretty credible.  He said that a
small amount of methanol may be produced, but in such a small quantity
that we needn't worry about it.  Distillation concentrates the alcohols
and each has its boiling point.  If you don't know what you are doing,
you can bring methanol concentrations up to where they can harm you.
I, personally, cannot see any way that aging, pasteurization, or light
can create more higher alcohols.  I believe (speculate, actually) that
higher fermentation temperatures can increase the production of higher
alcohols.  Another variable in my fusel alcohol test which I keep
putting off.
Al.

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Date: Thu, 2 Jul 92 10:46:45 MDT
From: mlh at cygnus.ta52.lanl.gov (Michael L. Hall)
Subject: Liquid properties

Russ Gelinas writes:

>   Hydrometer readings will go up even while the heavier trub material
>is settling out because the wort is cooling.  Cool wort has a higher
>SG than hot wort.  Think of it as a syrup; cold syrup is thick, hot
>syrup is thin, and in a simple sense, that's what SG is a measure of,
>liquid thickness.

I hate to nitpick, but SG is *not* like liquid thickness. Specific
Gravity is like liquid *density*. Viscosity is like liquid thickness.
For example, think about malt extract in a can: at room temperature,
it's very thick (viscous) so you heat it up in the can to make it
thinner (less viscous). Heating also has an effect on the density,
usually decreasing it. The malt extract may have a slightly different
density at the higher temperature, but it will have a very different 
viscosity.

The difference between density and viscosity can be seen by comparing
mercury (aka liquid silver) and maple syrup. Which is the most dense
at room temperature? Mercury has an SG of about 13.5, where maple syrup 
would be about 2 or 3 at the most, so mercury is by far the most dense.
Which is most viscous at room temperature? Mercury has a viscosity which
is similar to water, but maple syrup is much more viscous. This is one
case which shows that density and viscosity are definitely not the same
thing.

Mike Hall
Thermal Hydraulic Nut
and avid beer drinker

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Date: Thu, 2 Jul 92 13:09:48 edt
From: michael at frank.polymer.uakron.edu (Micheal Yandrasits)
Subject: re: methanol


In response to Russ Gelinas' question about methanol and other "bad"
alcohols.  I'm not sure about the overall possibility of producing
any signifiacan quantities of fusel ("bad" alcohols) from normal
(or abnormal) fermentation but I suspect its very very low.
	One thing I do know is that "wood alcohol" or methanol
is not the result of fermentation of any kind.  The term originates
from the fact that methanol is one of the products derived from the destructive
distillation of wood.  Basically they would heat wood to very high 
temperatures and condense and collect the vapors, mostly water, and
small quanties of organic solvents (I think this included acetone and 
formaldehyde and all sorts of things).  These liquids were then seperated
from each other.  As I recall only about 3% was actually methanol.

Relax

					Mike

  

 


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Date: Thu, 2 Jul 92 10:43:59 PDT
From: davep at cirrus.com (David Pike)
Subject: Silicon used as caulking


Nick Zeneta asked if silicon is usable at mash temp/PH.

I do know that silicon is used and sold as engine gasket material(usually
in a spray form) and is good to 400 or 500 degrees F.  About the PH, I
don't know...

Cheers,

Dave Pike
 


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Date:    Thu, 2 Jul 1992 14:05:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: NCDSTEST at NSSDCA.GSFC.NASA.GOV
Subject: Wyeast viability, O2 and cultures (Jim Busch)

With summer here again (90+ degrees in DC) I have to wonder about
the viability of the packaged Wyeast after shipping.  From what
I have learned, yeast stored without food depletes its glycogyn
stores.  This delays the synthisis of sterols in the respiration
phase, leading to longer lag times.  Now, maybe this isnt a
problem since I'm sure most of the HBDers make a 1 litre starter,
and maybe this obviates the respiration problem, but what about
the overall health of the yeast that is being grown?  Wouldnt
there be more mutants/autolized cells?

I am currently using cultured east from The Yeast Culture Kit Co,
and my one litre starter has about a 3-4 hour lag time (or less).
With brewers yeast off a Unitank, I get a 2 hour (or less) lag
time. Any comments on lag times from Wyeast starters, and do they
change with the season?

I dont inject oxygen yet.  I intend to get a bottle from the
hardware store and a stone from the fish store for next batch.
I have been told that bottled O2 cannot support contaminants
due to the high pressure exploding the cell walls.  Any comments?

Another interesting thing I wanted to note is that various people
are obtaining cultures of yeast directly from draft samples of
beer in Europe.  Using a 1.5 ml mini-tube of solid UV sterilized
wort, the yeast is transported back to the states and plated.
(If anyone would like to share any harder to find strains of
yeast I would be very interested in hearing from you).

As always, if anyone wants info on Dr. Schillers yeast company,
email me and I will hook you up.  I am in no way affiliated
with this effort other than a satisfied customer and brewing
friend.

Jim Busch
ncdstest at nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov

"DE HOPPEDUIVEL DRINKT MET ZWIER 'T GEZONDE BLOND HOPPEBIER!"

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Date:         Thu, 02 Jul 92 14:28:05 CDT
From: Darren Evans-Young <DARREN at ua1vm.ua.edu>
Subject:      Re: lactic acid treatment of sparge water

On Wed, 1 Jul 92 10:31:03 -0600 you said:
>
>Hello-
>
>could you please expound upon your lactic acid treatment of
>your sparge water?  Is it similiar to Miller's treatment?
>Specifically, how much lactic acid do you add, what is the
>initial percentage of your lactic acid, and, most importantly,
>where do you get food grade lactic acid?
>
>Thanks,
>Jon Binkley

Yes, it is Miller's treatment. I use food grade lactic acid to
get my sparge water down to the proper pH. I got my lactic acid
at Greater Fermentations of Santa Rosa. I forget what percentage
the acid is. It is strong stuff!!!! I doesnt take much to do the job.
What I do is mixed 1/2 tsp of lactic acid in 1 Cup of preboiled water.
Usually 4-5 tablespoons of this mixture will get my pH down to 5.7.
This is for 5 gallons of sparge water.  When I first got the acid,
I ignorantly added 1/2 tsp directly to the sparge water. It brought
the pH down to 3.2!  So dont make that mistake. Start with a very
small amount and work your way up.

Darren

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Date:         Thu, 02 Jul 92 16:52:16 EDT
From: "James W. Reese" <R505040 at UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU>
Subject:      BMW/Munich Beers/South Carolina


I am an economics professor at the University of South Carolina,
Spartanburg (USCS). My university is located about 30 kilometers from
the proposed BMW automobile plant site.

I would like to contact by e-mail Munich breweries or beer experts
for participation in the various Octoberfests in the Spartanburg area
this fall. There are many German textile related companies in the
area already, and one can choose from several festivals at that time.

Can anyone supply any relevant Munich e-mail addresses? Thank you in
advance for your assistance.

James W. Reese, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Economics
University of South Carolina, Spartanburg

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Date: Thu, 2 Jul 92 13:12:18 PDT
From: hartman at varian.varian.com (John Hartman)
Subject: Oregon Brewer's Festival

I'll be at the festival on Saturday, July 18th and I'm wondering if any other digesters
will be there.  If you will be and if you're interested in connecting up, send me some
email.

Cheers,
John

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Date: Thu, 2 Jul 92 15:35:53 PDT
From: Pat Lasswell <patl at microsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Long time in the primary

Back when I was a wee lad, my dad would brew beer in a big 15 gallon 
crock.  He had used nothing but ordinary bakers yeast, home-made malt, 
and home-grown hops.  When I began to brew my own beer after I 
graduated from college, I took the time to sample some of his beer, 
which had been in 32 ounce Coke bottles in the dark of an uninsulated 
shed.  The result was a light-bodied barley-wine, that after nearly two 
decades in the bottle, had a dry malty finish.  Some bottles were 
infected with lactic acid bacteria, but the ones that were clean were 
mellow and smooth, almost no trace of hops.  All of the bottles had a 
heavy sediment of yeast, which seemed to have survived a wide range of 
temperatures without autolysis: the temperature in the shed would go 
from freezing in the winter (occasionally with exploded coke cans) to 
eighty degrees or above during the hotter summers.  It is true that 
this is not the same as sitting in the primary upon a heavy layer of 
trub and old yeast; however, it does demonstrate that beer can have a 
surprising longevity.  Therefore, I would say, "If it tastes fine, then 
it's probably harmless."  My dad's old stuff hasn't hurt me any. (I 
think :-)


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #916, 07/03/92