FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  WINNER, Hops, Yeast, Mashout, Trub (Jack Schmidling)
  Re: mashing oats (Andy Phillips)
  Plating out WYEAST #3056 (KENYON)
  silcone again (Nick Zentena)
  ESP/culturing/malehops (korz)
  yeast/O-rings/Bully Porter (Brian Bliss)
  Beverage Cooler Lauter Tun (Chris McDermott)
  Cream Stouts and Lactose (Chris McDermott)
  Lotto America Digest (Brew Chemist Walter)
  yeast cultivation from bottles, barley wine (John L. Isenhour)
  Root Beer Repair (Thomas D. Feller)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 21:48 CDT
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: WINNER, Hops, Yeast, Mashout, Trub

 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 We seem to have a concensus on the 100th article.
 
 Congratulations Mr Adams, you will soon be the owner of your very own 
 MALTMILL.  As you article had little to do with brewing and I do not 
 recognize your name, I suspect others share my interest in knowing what you 
 plan to do with it.  Are you a brewer?  Will this make an all-grainer out of 
 you?  
 
 Now, to claim your MALTMILL, all you have to do is post a 1000 word essay on 
 why my beer is the World's Greatest.  Then I will pop a contract into the 
 mail that will only commit you to ten years of promotional tours, at your 
 expense of course.  Upon receiving your signed and notorized copy I will 
 start scrounging up reject parts and probably get one to you in time for 
 Homebrew Expo 2001.
 
 Seriously, congratulations and welcome to a very elite club.  Most of us had 
 to work a little harder for ours, but that's life.
 
 If you send me your shipping address, I will get it out to you.
 
 >From: sxs32 at po.CWRU.Edu (Subbakrishna Shankar)
 >Subject: Hop vine pruning and lagering refrigerator
 
 >Congratulations, Jack.  You certainly stirred up interest in HBD
 during the summer doldrums.
 
 There seems to be a range of views on this subject.
 
 >  A few weeks ago I was complaining here that my hop rhizomes weren't
 growing, so naturally they are now growing all too well.  I have assiduously
 pruned back new shoots.....
 
 I sugest you stop pruning your several vines that you have allowed to grow.  
 Just let them grow and prune only the new shoots at the base.
 
 > Anyone with a climate similar to Cleveland getting flowers already?
 
 I have pea sized flowers one one vine in Chicago.
 
 Interestingly, they are only on the vine that I forced to grow horizontally 
 when it reached the top of my six foot fence.  The growing tip has dried up 
 and all growth is now in the flowers.
 
 Two other vines from the same plant were allowed to grow vertically up 
 strings and they are three times as long and no sign of flowers.  It appears 
 that they will yield many time more hops than the one forced to grow 
 horizontally but will flower later in the season.
 
 Needless to say, I gave on on the fence idea for the rest of my plants and 
 they are all climbing up string.
 
 They are Chinook, BTW.
 
 >From: gummitch at techbook.com (Jeff Frane)
 >Subject: Please No More Offers!
 
 >Please, Jack.....I can't see what good this is doing....
 
 Tell that to Mr Adams!
 
 >From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu>
 >Subject: Cider and it's yeast
 
  >       Well this is slightly misleading Andy. The source of the
         wild yeasts is not waiting to drop from the heavens. It is
         already right there on the apples at crushing time.
 
 Good discussion on "wild" yeast.
 
 For those not aware of it, virtually al varietal wines depend on the 
 indigenous "wild" yeast found on the grape in the field.
 
 Champaign yeast is scraped off of grapes growing in the Champaign region, 
 Burgundy yeast comes from grapes growing there, etc....   Each type is 
 supposed to impart a unique character to the wine and is one of the reasons 
 Europeans have gone to such great lengths to protect the names of their 
 wines.
 
 There is nothing evil about "wild" yeast, after all, that is how wine and 
 beer were discovered/invented.  It is just that we have become technosnobs.  
 We know how to scrape off a little of that special yeast and pure culture it 
 to avoid contamination by any other undesired organisms.  We know how to 
 sterilize our must/wort and be absolutely certain that it will be true to 
 type.
 
 This brings up an interesting project, and fits right into the plans for my 
 anticipated bumper crop of apples and limited crop of grapes and 
 elderberries.
 
 I am going to try to pure culture the apple yeast if I can find the bloom 
 that Jay is talking about.  All I have ever noticed on apples is the common 
 rust which is also a fungus but not nearly as welcome.
 
 >From: polstra!larryba at uunet.UU.NET (Larry Barello)
 >Subject: Re: Lager vs Ale malts?
 
 >The bottom line is that step mashing is probably a quaint practice that
 is a hangover from.....So, anyone else out there given up step mashing when 
 doing all malt recipes and been satisfied with the results?  Anyone else have 
 any evidence to support or debunk my claims, above?
 
 I would like to expand the poll to find out something I have been alleging 
 from lilmited anecdotal experience.
 
 First of all, I think you are right about step mashing being a waste of time 
 with the malts we use as far as extract efficiency is concerned.
 
 I however, believe that a mashout at 170F+ is the best insurance there is to 
 avoid a set mash and would like to hear from people who can support or 
 disprove the hypothesis.  I have never had a set mash so I do not need to 
 hear from others who have not.  I just want to hear from those who have and 
 whether or not they use a mashout.
 
 TRUB.......
 
 One additional comment on trub....  I have been dumping the trub from the 
 brew kettle into a gallon jug and letting it settle in the fridge over night 
 and get a quart or more of wort that I can either sterilize and dump in the 
 ferment or use for starting the yeast for the next batch.
 
 That's a quart of beer I used to throw away.  Put another way, it's a simple 
 and freebe, 5% increase in yield.
 
 js
 
ZZ

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Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 8:49 GMT
From: Andy Phillips <PHILLIPSA at LARS.AFRC.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: mashing oats

Jeff Mizener sent me a direct mailing asking about German
oat beers. My reply bounced back, so I've posted it here:

Jeff,
Sorry, my information was second-hand. A beer-loving
colleague of mine went to a scientific conference in
Bavaria (on cereal storage products - proteins & starch) and at 
the main conference dinner beer was served instead of wine. 
He showed me the menu - there were several Weizens, 3-4 rye (roggen?) 
beers (there is at least one rye beer available here in England) and 
2 oat beers. He was very enthusaistic about the oat beers, but his
judgement may have been impaired by that stage....  
Andy


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Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 12:19 EDT
From: KENYON%LARRY%erevax.BITNET at pucc.Princeton.EDU
Subject: Plating out WYEAST #3056


I just brewed a Weizen (recipe to follow) which is now
fermenting with Wyeast #3056.  I streaked a wort/agar
petri dish with a sample from the Wyeast pouch.  Since
3056 reportedly contains a 50/50 mix of s. cervisae and
s. delbrueckii, do I need to maintain a slant of each of
each of these strains and build each up prior to
starting, or can I maintain both on the same slant?

The latter sounds unlikely, so here's my question (?)...
How will I be able to distinguish between the two
strains on the plate?  Is 50/50 the best ratio to use
for pitching subsequent batches?

I would like to hear any and all experience on this
subject as soon as possible since my plate already had
visible growth as of this morning, so please email to me
and I'll summarize to the digest ...

Now for the recipe:

Weizen Schmeizen, 10 gallons

6.6# can IREKS Wheat Malt Extract (100% Malted Wheat)
6.6# can IREKS Light Malt Extract
2 oz Hallertau Leaf, Bittering, 60 min. (alpha=4.4)
1.5 oz. Cascade Leaf, Bittering, 30 min. (alpha=5.7)
 .5 oz Hallertau Plug, Aromatic, 15 min (alpha=2.9)
Wyeast #3056 from a 1qt starter. Lag time 6-8 hrs.



Bring 3 gallons water to boil, remove from heat and add
malt extract syrup (yes, all of it).  Bring mixture to
boil, add Hallertau bittering hops.  After 30 minutes
add Cascade bittering hops, 15 minutes later add
Hallertau plug (I used hop bags for all 3 additions).

Cool wort (about 3.5 gallons) to about 100F, siphon onto
another 3.5 gallons of cold tap water, aerating
vigorously.  This produced 7 gallons of wort with a
S.G.=1.065 (I get great extract efficiency from my
extracts!).

I intend to rack (dilute) this into two secondaries each
containing 1.5 gallons of water.  Since there won't be
any new sugars for the yeast to contend with I don't
plan on aerating the additional water.  I figure this
should get me to 10 gallons of what would have been
S.G.=1.045 beer, if I had the capacity (or deire) to
brew/primary the entire volume.

Pitched yeast starter  at 75-80F.

I'll post the results when I know them ...

Thanks,     -Chuck-






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Date: 	Wed, 22 Jul 1992 11:19:19 -0400
From: Nick Zentena <zen%hophead at canrem.com>
Subject: silcone again

Hi,
        Well since I started this I guess I should report
        on my progress. With all the various ideas flying
        back and forth I called GE Silicones and asked
        them.[I figured they should know-)] Well they sent
        me a sample of Ge Silcone RTV102 that is FDA/USDA
        and NSF tested. The silcone will leak acetic acid
        during curing. But that doesn't worry me just makes
        me hungry.

                Thanks for the help.

                Nick

*****************************************************************************
I drink Beer I don't collect cute bottles!
zen%hophead at canrem.com
*****************************************************************************

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Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 11:57 CDT
From: korz at ihpubj.att.com
Subject: ESP/culturing/malehops

First, I'd like to point out that there were *two* instances of ESP
(no, not ESB) in the last HBD.  First, I asked about the importance
of protein rests with fully-modified malts, which was telepathically
relayed to Larry Barello, who answered my question, and then there
was the request for brewpubs in St. Louis followed by Walter Gude's
review of Dave Miller's brewpub (I'm sure glad I didn't post right
away).

Secondly, I'd like to answer Chris' question about culturing from 
commercial beers such as Sierra Nevada.  I've had great success with
SNPA yeast, both from Wyeast and from the bottles.  I have heard a
rumour that SN has begun filtering their beers (I hope someone can
dispel this rumour) -- I'm quite sure that their Pale Bock has no
yeast in the bottom.  The SNPA I have is a few months old and still
has yeast in the bottom.  I recommend you use a starter, Chris.  All
you have to do is put two tablespoons of malt in a cup of water and
boil it for ten minutes.  Cool that with the cover on the pot.  When
the mini-wort is at 70F, pour (from a foot or so above the sanitized
funnel -- for aeration) the wort into a bottle in which you've left
(as you had mentioned) the last 1cm of beer.  Flame the lips of the
bottles before every pour for added sanitation.  I usually use three
bottles of SNPA poured together into a single bottle and 8 ounces of
wort.  Attach and airlock.  If the beer was around 60F or so, there
is less shock to the yeast and it seems to start faster -- sometimes
in as little as 12 hours.  I suggest you wait 24-35 hours.  At high-
krausen, a 3-piece airlock will bubble about once every 1-2 minutes
(equivalent to 40-80 bubbles/minute in a 5 gallon batch).

Finally, a question:
What do male hops look like?  I think my Nugget may be a male.  The
"cones" look really tiny with 20-30  3/8" to 1/2" spikes sticking out
of them.  I'd be pretty upset if I raised this plant from a pup and
then find out I have to rip it out.  (Just for completeness, males
are unwelcome in hopfields -- they fertilize the females causing them
to make seeds instead of concentrating their efforts on lupulin.)

Al.

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Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 10:38:39 CDT
From: bliss at csrd.uiuc.edu (Brian Bliss)
Subject: yeast/O-rings/Bully Porter


>I see no reason to go to a second yeast, such as a champagne yeast. 

If you do, make sure that you use a large starter, and pitch at high
krausen.  There isn't enough O2 left in the wort for the yeast
to undergo multiply (and/or the high alcohol kills much of the
active yeast), so it's even more important to get the yeast going
before adding it to the already-fermented wort.

- --------------

>Wyeast #1098 is (allegedly) the Whitbread 3-strain.

Any authorative information on this?  I've heard it before,
but I also thought that all the wyeast were single strains,
except for the Bavarian Wheat yeast.

- --------------

>to blame for the cola/rootbeer/etc. flavors.  Foxx sells the little o-rings
>for probably a dollar per dozen.  At that price, why bother keeping the
>old ones?

What's their ph#/address?

- --------------

>The best brew in the house was the guest beer Bully Porter form the ***** 
>brewery in Colorodo (does anyone know who brews this?).

It comes from the Boulevard Brewery in Kansas City, MO

bb


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Date: 22 Jul 1992 13:56:01 -0500
From: Chris McDermott <mcdermott at draper.com>
Subject: Beverage Cooler Lauter Tun

 Beverage Cooler Lauter Tun
I am in the process of planning what equipment that I will need when I go to 
all grain this fall.  For my lauter (and optionally mash) tun, I am considering
using one of those plastic cylinderical beverage coolers with a slotted pipe
system for sparging.  I know that this has been covered before, but I would
like
to hear from those who use this system, or a similar one, about the pros and
cons of it.  Additionaly does anyone know if where these coolers can be found
in sizes greater than 5 gals?

Please respond directly.  And thank you.


 Chris McDermott,
 <mcdermott at draper.com>


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Date: 22 Jul 1992 14:16:28 -0500
From: Chris McDermott <mcdermott at draper.com>
Subject: Cream Stouts and Lactose

 Cream Stouts and Lactose

As I understand it, lactose is often added to cream stouts.  Since the lactose
is unfermentable by normal "beer" yeasts, it remains in the final product to
give it a sweet, "creamy" flavor.  Unfortunately, lactose is not only
unfermentable by the yeasty-boys, it is also undigestable by many humans.  Does
anyone have a reasonable suggestions for a lactose substitute in these
recipies.  Perhaps there is a "natural" procedure for doing this, like using
more specialty malts, or higher mash temps, but my inexperience has left me in
the dark.  Anyone got a light?

 Chris McDermott, [homebrew, not just for breakfast anymore]
 <mcdermott at draper.com>


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Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 15:10:30 -0500
From: Brew Chemist Walter <walterbj at ernie.cis.uwosh.edu>
Subject: Lotto America Digest


Fellow HBD'ers,

	For all of you who enjoyed sending in your "lottery tickets"
to the HBD, for all of you who have wasted precious bandwith and countless
hours of company time for my having to wade through all the shit in the
HBD lately, and for anyone else with info on the hunter airstat, see below:

ANNOUNCING THE NEW Lotto America Digest

Yes each and everyday (weekends excluded :-( ) you can send your useless
e-mail to Lotto America Digest.  A winner will be picked on the basis
of the most inane use of bandwith each day, so really try and be bone
stupid.  To subscribe to the list send mail to the following address
with "Thanks Jack" as the subject line



Be aware that the sudden surge of mail may cause the moderator
of the list to take a few days to post your responses, but you
will get them I am sure.

Good Day, and sorry for wasting HBD space, but I couldn't resist +-:-)

Brian


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Date:    Wed, 22 Jul 1992 15:36:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: ISENHOUR at LAMBIC.FNAL.GOV (John L. Isenhour)
Subject: yeast cultivation from bottles, barley wine

Chris Estes writes:

>I was wondering if anyone out there could give me some pointers on the
>best methods of culturing yeasts from beer (SNPA in particular).


The Yeast issue of Zymurgy has some good info.  What I have been doing lately
is to create a sterile starter (I use a pressure cooked - yeast flask or large
flask or quart mason jar) 1-2 Tablespoons dry malt per 500 ml of good water.  I 
let the beer bottles settle for a coupla days after purchase.  Then I pour the
bottles into a pitcher immediatly putting the yeast dregs into the sterile
media, then shake the container, then store in a warm (75 deg f) place.  It
usually starts right up with little pinpoints of 'head', and is ready to go in
a coupla days.  I then pitch that into a gallon glass starter of 2 liters and
taste it for infection.  When the 2 liters of starter is ready to go I brew.
I've gotten great results this way, and you can inocculate a quart mason jar
and refriderate it it in a plastic bag, and it keeps for several months.
I would advise making a starter rather than adding right to the carboy to
decrease the lag time.

 -The Hopdevil

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Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 14:32:34 PDT
From: thomasf at deschutes.ico.tek.com (Thomas D. Feller)
Subject: Root Beer Repair



OK so I should have know better than use tabs in my email. Let try again.

			OLD FASHIONED ROOT BEER

"Use strong bottles with patent stoppers or tie corks in securely. Use a stone 
crock or granite vessell in which to let drinks stand while 'working.' Fresh 
roots from the woods are always preferable to dried herbs. Select a cool place 
in which to store the drinks; the longer they stand in a warm place after 
bottling, the more effervescent they will become! When filling bottles, fill to 
within an inch of the top.

1 cake compressed yeast
5 pounds sugar	     
2 ounces Sassafras root	     
2 ounces Juniper Berries    
1 ounce Hops or Ginger Root
1 ounce Dandelion root
2 ounces Wintergreen
 4 gallons water

Wash roots well in cold water. Add juniper berries (crushed) and hops. Pour 8 
quarts boiling water over root mixture and boil slowly 20 minutes. Strain 
through flannel bag. Add sugar and remaining 8 quarts water. Allow to stand 
until lukewarm. Dissolve yeast in a little cool water. Add to root liquid. Stir 
will. Let settle then strain again and bottle. Cork tightly. Keep in a warm room
5 to 6 hours, then store in a cool place. Put on ice as required for use."

The Fleishman Company, Excellent Recipes for Baking Raised Bread, 1912


A couple of notes from the Oregon Brewer Fest

A great time! Lots of great beers

I worked next to Devils Mt. Brewery on Friday night. They were pouring Railroad 
Ale, I saw no one from the brewery but they seem to still be in business

I had a long talk with someone who works at Widmer... they only use one yeast 
and the repitch from batch to batch. The Hefe-Wisen is kegged young (4-5 days?) 
and before kegging the recirclate the beer to reach the desired cloudly state.


Tom Feller


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #931, 07/23/92